Did Baltar command a Battlestar?

[Apoptygma]

In the episode Planet of the Gods, while Baltar is snivelling to Adama he states to him that he was on the way back to his Battlestar when he was captured by the Cylons. He also states that he was a member of the Council of 12. I would assume he must have commanded a Battlestar as well since Imperious Leader gave him command of a Base Star and his conversations with Lucifer definately show some military tactics/strategy background. Has this been explored before? If he was a Commander of a Battlestar this makes his treachery even greater. Do you believe he was being deceptive when he offered to guide the Galactica to the Cylon home world to destroy it since the Cylon forces were spread so thin? I think it is definitely possible since he was betrayed by the original Imperious Leader. Thoughts???

[spcglider]

It was never outright stated as such. But one would think that if he did, indeed, command a Battlestar that he would be garbed in military uniform. I never assumed that President Adar was the actual Commander of the Battlestar Atlantia. It seemed more like the Atlantia was "at his disposal".

Like the President of the United States is the Commander of all armed forces, he becomes the ranking officer on board when he steps onto an aircraft carrier, but he is not necessarily acting commander of that vessel.

As a government official, Baltar might have been assigned to a battlestar like a permanent on-board civil representative.

The workings of the Colonial governments are still a big mystery. The civil government, the military, and the clergy seem to be smooshed together into a sticky, indistinct wad.B
But quite frankly, judging by what we saw in the premiere, I can't imagine that Baltar OR Adar would have been any sort of success at commanding a battlestar.

[Sept17th]

Spcglider, I'm in total agreement.

[Bijou88]

I always viewed Baltar's comment as meaning he was returning to the battlestar that brought him to the conference. Maybe it was a battlestar that represented the people of Baltar's home colony.

[WarMachine]

...But quite frankly, judging by what we saw in the premiere, I can't imagine that Baltar OR Adar would have been any sort of success at commanding a battlestar.

Well, it really depends. Just because no one ever mentions Baltar commanding anything, that doesn't remove the possibility of past experience. If the War were moving in fits and starts, "spurts" if you will, then that leaves open the possibility for Baltar having once held some kind of command, possibly even of having been a "rising star"(sorry! :D :devil: ) at some point, only to have something happen to crush his dreams of military glory.

As to the lack of uniform? Well, note that Ike never wore his uniform after retiring from the military, including his time as President; except on things like Veteran's Day, vets typically don't wear uniforms. Even if Baltar was a former officer, as a politician, wearing a uniform when not on active service might be seen as very gauchè.

Looking at Baltar's strategies as a Cylon commander strictly empirically, there's nothing really wrong with what he tries to do -- he keeps being undermined by poor intelligence, feuding subordinates, opaque superiors, the fact that Adama is a much better commander overall and the occasional "Wandering Legendary Military Hero Commanding A Supposedly-Destroyed Battlestar"©.....

[Dawg]

"Wandering Legendary Military Hero Commanding A Supposedly-Destroyed Battlestar"©.....

Yep. Gotta watch out for them....

;)

My own thought is that Adama was the only member of the Council who was also in actual command of a battlestar. We know nothing of the other members except Adar and Baltar - and we know all Adar was was a politician/bureaucrat. The rest - elder statesmen. Each traveling on a ship representing their respective colony - not necessarily a battlestar (although the argument can - and has been - made that there were more than 12 battlestars in the fleet and each sat on the bridge of their colony's battlestar in a symbolic role).

I don't see Adar or Baltar in actual command of any battlestar - but the Atlantia was the flagship and therefore "Adar's".

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Charybdis]

I agree with most here. We must go by what was shown and no one other than Adama was in military uniform. I also think that each council rep was assigned to a military ship and therefore the statement by Baltar about getting back to "his" battlestar." Each had their flagship, so to speak.

Anything else is just a guess..

[Centurion Draco]

I think Baltar did command a Star.
The obvious mentions of him having a ship etc, the fact that 'Baltar's people' did the survey of Carrillon, and the fact that the Cylons give him command of a Base Ship (Commodore of a fleet in Living Legend!)
He's not 'advisor' to Lucifer, he is his superior, given a role befitting his rank in the Colonial Military.
There's just NO WAY the Cylons would put a civillian, no matter how sneaky, in charge of the fate of thousands of Cylon lives, and as ultimate commander in charge of finishing a thousand yahren war.
As for his clothing, he does seem to be wearing some kind of 'uniform' IMO.
I think his 'uniform' is that of minor royalty with a definate military look (he's a Count ((no thats not a typo)) in the original script/novel etc).
He wears a dress cape, gloves, the seal of the lords of Kobol, it's made of velvet/suedette like the dress uniforms of the standard military. Why not?

[spcglider]

Draco,

When was the mention of the survey? Don't recall.

-G

[Centurion Draco]

Draco,

When was the mention of the survey? Don't recall.

-G

Um, they are talking about the complex mining operation on Carrillon and I think it's Adama that mentions it.
Someone will quote chapter and verse ;)

[Charybdis]

Well, the seal of the Lords of Kobol is given to elected council members, so that is not a definite sign of military service. and I think that given that Baltar fancies himself a special person, he dresses the part. (Look at Count Dooku from Star Wars!).

and the idea that he be given a whole base star? well, he talks it up pretty good to the Imperious Leader about being a human and being able "to think as they do" and the Cylons are in league with him already, so they give him a basestar to command. Not only that, but he is/was a very high ranking human leader (he's on the Council of the Twelve) so that might be enough for the Cylons. Who else are they going to turn to?

Remember, also that in our very own history (U.S., that is) civilians were put into military leadership positions back in the Civil War, so the concept is not out of the question...

[Dawg]

Well, the seal of the Lords of Kobol is given to elected council members, so that is not a definite sign of military service. and I think that given that Baltar fancies himself a special person, he dresses the part. (Look at Count Dooku from Star Wars!).

and the idea that he be given a whole base star? well, he talks it up pretty good to the Imperious Leader about being a human and being able "to think as they do" and the Cylons are in league with him already, so they give him a basestar to command. Not only that, but he is/was a very high ranking human leader (he's on the Council of the Twelve) so that might be enough for the Cylons. Who else are they going to turn to?

Remember, also that in our very own history (U.S., that is) civilians were put into military leadership positions back in the Civil War, so the concept is not out of the question...

Add to that the very real question as to whether or not Baltar really was in command of that basestar. I think it entirely possible that Lucifer (who was apparently in line to become Imperious Leader himself) was in actual command but let Baltar think he was.

Just a thought.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Centurion Draco]

Well, the seal of the Lords of Kobol is given to elected council members, so that is not a definite sign of military service. and I think that given that Baltar fancies himself a special person, he dresses the part. (Look at Count Dooku from Star Wars!).

and the idea that he be given a whole base star? well, he talks it up pretty good to the Imperious Leader about being a human and being able "to think as they do" and the Cylons are in league with him already, so they give him a basestar to command. Not only that, but he is/was a very high ranking human leader (he's on the Council of the Twelve) so that might be enough for the Cylons. Who else are they going to turn to?

Remember, also that in our very own history (U.S., that is) civilians were put into military leadership positions back in the Civil War, so the concept is not out of the question...

But none of that is a reason to give him command.
Torture him for information, yes!
Allow him to live as an advisor, yes.
Make him an aide to Lucifer, ok.
But Baltar makes BIG decisions! It's undenyable, and he regularly disagree's with Lucifer, and chooses strategies in clear opposition to Lucifers advice, it's clear who'se in command.
He's always spouting about his strategies etc, It seems to me that he acts like a military leader!
He even describes himself as the greatest military commander in the history of the Cylon empire or something similar, this is not just a politician!
And of course there's the whole question of him having responsibility for surveying entire worlds that are well within the Colonial sphere of influence, and him hiding the existance of HUGE scale cylon/ovion mining colony etc.
Look at how TOTALY Baltar had the entire Colonial hirearcy fooled?
Ask yourself if he could have achieved all of this without direct control and help from some or all of his colony's military, then ask yourself if they'd have gone along with it unless he was their direct commander?

I think he did command a Star, as well as leading a colony, and he would have used that dual role, and the Star to 'pacify' the remaining colonists that he fancied himself 'president for life' over, including those of his home world as he said to the Imperious Leader.

[Belloby]

Unless he had a mental breakdown sometime before the Destruction of the Colonies, it seems to me Baltar isn't the kinda guy that I would trust with something as important as a battlestar?

And as far as putting Baltar in charge of the destruction of the human race, I always got the impression he was part of the plan to destroy humanity, but he wasn't totally in charge of it.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

[Bijou88]

I know that the Marvel comics are not considered canon by many fans, but it may give a clue to Baltar's background. In one issue, there is a flashback to Adama's academy days. He is having a practice duel with no other than Baltar. So, according to this source, Baltar was in the Colonial military at some time in the past. It stands to reason that he had some experiance with command.

[spcglider]

The comic series has alot to offer, but I never really considered it canon. Doesn't mean other s don't!

-G

[Bijou88]

I was just pointing it out as a possible answer. What is Canon is really determined by each fan. I have a nostalgic affection for the comics and place them in my personal Battlestar Galactica chronology.

:)

[BST]

I was just pointing it out as a possible answer. What is Canon is really determined by each fan. I have a nostalgic affection for the comics and place them in my personal Battlestar Galactica chronology.

:)


Hey Bijou!!

Long time, no talk to. :D

How's that project coming?

:)

[Charybdis]

Just another tidbit about Baltar's past. In the Encyclopedia Galactica which was released in 1979 during the show, it lists under the Baltar entry that Baltar was born on an asteroid and managed the family's business in Tylium mines. The asteroid was conquered by the Cylons and he was a prisoner for 5 yahrens. He felt he should have been rescued and held a grudge against the military and the government.

After this, he went to the University of Picon and studied politics. He entered the political life and gained influence. Eventually, he was elected to the Council of the 12.

So, according to this source, he was not in the military. Of course, take it for what it's worth, but it the closest thing to being canon since it was an official publication at the time...

[spcglider]

Good catch!

-G

[Centurion Draco]

Just another tidbit about Baltar's past. In the Encyclopedia Galactica which was released in 1979 during the show, it lists under the Baltar entry that Baltar was born on an asteroid and managed the family's business in Tylium mines. The asteroid was conquered by the Cylons and he was a prisoner for 5 yahrens. He felt he should have been rescued and held a grudge against the military and the government.

After this, he went to the University of Picon and studied politics. He entered the political life and gained influence. Eventually, he was elected to the Council of the 12.

So, according to this source, he was not in the military. Of course, take it for what it's worth, but it the closest thing to being canon since it was an official publication at the time...

Unfortunately all the 'official' publications around that time seem to contradict each other.
And all of the relevant parts have been discussed to the Nth degree over the years.
For instance.
Perhaps the most 'gospel' of the lot (the original novelisation of Saga) has this to say about Baltar:

'Although a self-proclaimed Count, Baltar was little better than a trader, a dealer in rare items. He was rich, yes, overwhelmingly so, but not a fit liason between the humans and Cylons, not the proper carrier of sacred trusts. Why send a corpulent merchant whose unhealthy skin suggested the tarnishing of coin when power-hungry diplomats were available?'


So in that, he's just a crooked trader, and apart from bribing politicians, his appointment as Cylon liason is the closest he's gotten to a diplomatic career.

So, mafia-esq criminal, Orphan turned self-made politician, Battlestar Commander, military 'genius'.......
Take your pick.
There are plenty of options that circumstantial evidence and conjecture can support.
I personally think that lowering him to the level of some mere criminal makes him unbelieveable as commander of the military forces pursuing the Galactica.
I find myself thinking, Tony Soprano, you'd give him a call if you wanted someone to cut an ear off of someone who'd stolen some cash off you.
But you wouldn't put him in charge of hunting down Bin-Laden.
Of course it's all open to personal opinion. Unfortunately there is no definative source for reference, and seeing as the facts often seem to be open to interpretation or at times downright contradictory, I guess these discussions will run for another 30 years.

[spcglider]

Oh, I dunno.

How many petty criminals or "corpulent merchants" occupy places of prominence in our government today? How many big business men are striding the halls of power in Washington without any real reason for being there other than personal gain?

If we allow the Colonial government the same shortcomings of our own, I find the possibility much much MORE than realistic. Scarily realistic.

And who knows? If you put Tony Soprano in charge of finding BinLaden, who's to say he'd do a lesser job than has been done already?

-Gordon

[Apoptygma]

I just finished watching the episode "Murder on the Rising Star" and Adama talks about how one of Baltar's men Karibdis took down the Caprican Defense Mainframe ... and Karibdis calls Baltar Commander and Apollo refers to Baltar as Karibdis' former Commander ...

this pretty much locks it up for me ... that there was a treasonous collusion between Baltar and some of his officers to allow the Cylons to defeat the Colonials. However, the Cylons betrayed the alliance between them and Baltar's group who were to rule over Baltar's home world ... heh never trust a Cylon ;)

[Centurion Draco]

I just finished watching the episode "Murder on the Rising Star" and Adama talks about how one of Baltar's men Karibdis took down the Caprican Defense Mainframe ... and Karibdis calls Baltar Commander and Apollo refers to Baltar as Karibdis' former Commander ...

this pretty much locks it up for me ... that there was a treasonous collusion between Baltar and some of his officers to allow the Cylons to defeat the Colonials. However, the Cylons betrayed the alliance between them and Baltar's group who were to rule over Baltar's home world ... heh never trust a Cylon ;)

Some very good points there! :)