Why???

[spcglider]

Any idea why Cylon guns (rifles) would have a mechanical trigger mechanism?

That's kinda silly, don't you think? I mean, if you were designing a cylon warrior and for some insane reason you decided that his weapon needed to be a seperate unit, wouldn't you build in some kind of cylon-only trigger mechanism so that when you were on the battlefeild with the HUMAN enemy, they wouldn't be able to pick up your downed weapons and use them against you?

The cylons have "the mechanical advantage"... why not exploit it?

-Gordon

[jewels]

maybe just that it's easier to replace a detached defective weapon than to lose use of your soldier when his weapon is down.......

[ernie90125]

This all goes back to the '70s' element of the show. I'm sure there are numerous such things that can be pointed out.

For example :

How come the Cylons had comfortable cushioned seats in their raiders ? Was this in case the mechanical bottoms got sore ?

How come the Colonials could build entire Battlestars...yet were only at the GreenScreen computer technology stage ?

How come the Cyons had to speak to each other, and press buttons on computers ? The Cylons built themselves, raiders and basestars 100s of years ahead of us now in 2006....yet didn't have the technology my home wireless network has ?

Why did Adama say fighters could reach a distant outpost if they used "Turbos all the way" when you could just accelarate to X speed in space and float from then on ?

Why didn't the Cylons wipe out the colonials with Nuclear bombs, rather than use individual raiders ?

Then again....in the 90s Star Trek:First Contact movie......the mighty Borg attacked Cochrane's site with weapons that destoryed one little building at a time. Why not just use one nuclear bomb ? So its not just 70s shows.....

That's why a Continuation would also be described as an 'update'. It would hopefully address many of these issues. Then again a lack of that Cylon voice would cost the show ons of its most recognisable features.....

[Centurion Draco]

Any idea why Cylon guns (rifles) would have a mechanical trigger mechanism?

That's kinda silly, don't you think? I mean, if you were designing a cylon warrior and for some insane reason you decided that his weapon needed to be a seperate unit, wouldn't you build in some kind of cylon-only trigger mechanism so that when you were on the battlefeild with the HUMAN enemy, they wouldn't be able to pick up your downed weapons and use them against you?

The cylons have "the mechanical advantage"... why not exploit it?

-Gordon

Centurions have an arm mounted energy weapon, so I guess that fits your criteria.
The rifle, as with most other cylon technology, follows the biggest seeming contradiction of Cylon culture. Which is of course that as predominantly mechanical beings, they have no direct control over or interfacing with the machines that they use.
The most obvious example of this is the fact that it seems to take three cylons to fly a fighter! Two 'pilots' and a commander.
However, the rifle, and for that matter the other 'war machines' could be explained in the fact that the Cylons were initially created to perform the function of 'soldiers' perhaps replacing organic beings, and so possibly initially designed to work alongside them, use their equipment etc.
It could be that this archaic function has been preserved to allow centurions to exploit the technology/weapons of subjegated races more readily.
Perhaps their cybernetic 'life' means that they simply don't wish to lower themselves to any kind of interconnectivity with simple machines (apart from the little arm gun).
It's certainly a unique 'view' of a machine enemy, not really repeated until we see the T-800's in the terminator series.

[Charybdis]

You mean, kind of like the Star Wars super battle droids with the built in blaster in their arms....

[spcglider]

Centurions have an arm mounted energy weapon, so I guess that fits your criteria.


Not that I've ever seen indicated in canon material.

-Gordon

[Centurion Draco]

You mean, kind of like the Star Wars super battle droids with the built in blaster in their arms....

Exactly right. Its there, but it was clearly 'ignored' for technical reasons once the series was in production.

[Damocles]

This all goes back to the '70s' element of the show. I'm sure there are numerous such things that can be pointed out.

For example :

How come the Cylons had comfortable cushioned seats in their raiders ? Was this in case the mechanical bottoms got sore ?

Friction insulating cushion to prevent sliding around in the seat and metal to metal sticking during prolonged galvanic contact.

How come the Colonials could build entire Battlestars...yet were only at the GreenScreen computer technology stage ?

Maybe that is a deliberate suppression of their own computer tech to resist Cylon interfacing vulnerability? Or my favorite, Colonials see better via CRT greenscreen than we do on flatscreen blue?

How come the Cyons had to speak to each other, and press buttons on computers ? The Cylons built themselves, raiders and basestars 100s of years ahead of us now in 2006....yet didn't have the technology my home wireless network has ?

Multiple interface redundancy. Sound is impossible to microwave jam inside a Faraday caged spacecraft or in an ECM atmosphered environment. Try WiFi after being EMPed by a Colonial(or US) microwave pulse weapon. After being hit by those a few times, Faradaying all your hardware(including your mechanically triggered rifles and YOURSELVES), and using push buttons to input into your Faradayed devices, makes a lot of sense.

Exploding rifles blow off a Centurion's arm. Back to the armory for a new arm and and a new rifle. Exploding Centurion arm means total weapon system replacement(Whole new Centurion).

Why did Adama say fighters could reach a distant outpost if they used "Turbos all the way" when you could just accelarate to X speed in space and float from then on ?

Light drag.

Why didn't the Cylons wipe out the colonials with Nuclear bombs, rather than use individual raiders ?

Suppression of neutrino interaction;

http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001265.html

inhibits thermonuclear reactions.

Then again....in the 90s Star Trek:First Contact movie......the mighty Borg attacked Cochrane's site with weapons that destoryed one little building at a time. Why not just use one nuclear bomb ? So its not just 70s shows.....

Berman hasn't got a clue.


That's why a Continuation would also be described as an 'update'. It would hopefully address many of these issues. Then again a lack of that Cylon voice would cost the show one of its most recognisable features.....

Not as necessary as you think. Just a little tweakiing(Bee Dee Bee Dee Bee Dee)here and there.

http://www.jeffbots.com/twiki.wav

http://www.jeffbots.com/twiki2.jpg

[spcglider]

Exactly right. Its there, but it was clearly 'ignored' for technical reasons once the series was in production.


I dunno. That little nubbin could be any number of mechanical apparati.

I always figured it was a memory dump interface. You know, a socket through which the "disconnected" cylons could dump their accumulated knowlege after being apart from the cylon network and "out of contact".

-G :salute: :cylon:

[Centurion Draco]

Not that I've ever seen indicated in canon material.

-Gordon

Hi Matey.
No, it's pretty much accepted as a gun, trust me.

The original cylon concepts were going to have more weapons. Including more blade weapons. The closer to production, the more pressure from the studios, and other concerns meant the Cylons became 'fitted' into the form that we recognise.
The main residual trace of the earlier concepts to survive, is the arm-gun.
Here is a mention of it, along with a pre-production sketch that is 90% in the form that you'd recognise from the screen:
Cylon arm gun concept sketch. (http://www.geocities.com/sjpaxton/cylonpic.html)
The final form of the arm gun (that the above site appears not to acknowledge) is visible on every Centurion and Command Centurion used in the show. Not a single one is without it, although we never see the 'gun' used on screen.
You can see a clear picture of both std and cmd versions on www.ketzer.com
Or you can have a look at Jim's over at wegottafindearth (http://www.wegottafindearth.com/armnossle.htm)

However, back to your original question.
The concept of the Cylon, is that it was created in humanoid form directly emulating the most effective 'shape' that it's creators had encountered (with Iblis' influence). To pose the question 'Why should a Cylon rifle have a trigger?' is to ask 'Why make them humanoid at all?'.
Is a 'hand' the most effective weapons platform?
Would a society that can produce technology of that level need to employ Centurions in menial 'operator' tasks when integrated machines would clearly be simpler?
Would they need to tie up three Centurions to fly a fighter that still isn't a match for a single seater Viper?

It leads to the question: how do you view the Cylons?
If you see them as mere machines, then these incongruities, and seeming inconsistencies are going to seem like obvious flaws.
If however you view them as sentient cybernetic or artificial lifeforms then it's not such a problem.
It all gets a bit 'zen' at that point though.

Draco :cylon:

[peter noble]

Back when the Cylons were still lizards in armour, Andy Probert theorised that they'd use muscle-controlled weaponry fired from those nernies on the gauntlets.

The idea was dropped and they went with the rifles.

It would have been cool if they'd stuck with this idea, the Cylons would have been as menacing as the super soldiers from Stargate!

[Damocles]

Back when the Cylons were still lizards in armour, Andy Probert theorised that they'd use muscle-controlled weaponry fired from those nernies on the gauntlets.

The idea was dropped and they went with the rifles.

It would have been cool if they'd stuck with this idea, the Cylons would have been as menacing as the super soldiers from Stargate!

Cool, yes.

Practical? No.

Two/three point mounting/bracing of a weapon is superior to single point mounting in azimuth and bearing while leading/tracking a moving target.

Its easier to aim a rifle from a humanoid-shaped mounting than it is to aim a pistol. Stability/LOS issues.

As always;

[Centurion Draco]

Back when the Cylons were still lizards in armour, Andy Probert theorised that they'd use muscle-controlled weaponry fired from those nernies on the gauntlets.

The idea was dropped and they went with the rifles.

It would have been cool if they'd stuck with this idea, the Cylons would have been as menacing as the super soldiers from Stargate!

But the design remains, albeit as an unused sidearm (or at least use unseen). It is undenyably still there.
Which does make sense really. As Damo' quite rightly points out, there are clear advantages for the rifle, plus the ability to have a 'heavier' weapon, than could safely be mounted on the armour (with a non-internal power supply), and the aforementioned safety issues to the user/wearer.
However, thats not to say that the Centurion's two 'side-arms', the sword and arm-gun wouldn't be handy in close combat, and it does make sense to not have 'all your eggs in the one basket' and have some kind of back-up for close-in combat.
For me, it's not a question of the arm-gun's existence, it's just a shame we never see it used!

I've always fancied it as a thermal lance or simpler flame unit (ala Boba Fett). For scorching idiots who get too close!

[spcglider]

Draco,

Without the use of smileys, I want to set the tone for this exchange as a friendly one. PLEASE do not infer a confrontational tone to my responses! Okay?
I think this is a great line of investigative thinking and want to run some of it down to see where it lands. I am being critical, but only to the concept and perceptions... NOT to anyone in particular. If I get too convoluted in my points, just tell me to stifle it and we can move on. :salute: So here we go:

Hi Matey.
No, it's pretty much accepted as a gun, trust me.

Okay, I'll grant that. But the "one colony-one battlestar" theory is also a popular concept that bears no canonical support. Please read on.


The original cylon concepts were going to have more weapons. Including more blade weapons. The closer to production, the more pressure from the studios, and other concerns meant the Cylons became 'fitted' into the form that we recognise.
The main residual trace of the earlier concepts to survive, is the arm-gun.
Here is a mention of it, along with a pre-production sketch that is 90% in the form that you'd recognise from the screen:
Cylon arm gun concept sketch. (http://www.geocities.com/sjpaxton/cylonpic.html)


Then the question falls to the age-old perspective question of "what is canon?". Should all developmental sketches not seen in the show be considered canon?

It is nice when we get a chance to see (through notes or sketches) what the designers were thinking when they arrived at the final designs for any particular element of a popular show like Galactica. But changes accrued by the needs of practicality or even whim are what dictate the final product. Since it was decided that the Cylon warriors would carry their weapon instead of having it as an intrinsic element, does it indeed matter that the nozzle on their gauntlet was originally intended as a gun?

Canon example: The Lost Warrior. Red Eye needs to use a Colonial laser pistol. Why? If he didn't have his standard issue cylon rifle, why wouldn't he use the built-in gun? The story precluded the notion that it was a weapon. It would have been a perfect opportunity to show it as one. But they decided, either conciously or unconciously, to forego that concept to support a storyline in which it wasn't or at least wasn't recognized as one. Even by the being who posessed it. They needed it to not be a weapon so they could have a wild-west styled shoot out.

The intent of the creators is something all at once to be admired and respected, but at what point in the development does something become a real piece of the show's reality and when is it left behind with the stuff that isn't? Should we all be referring to the Galactica as "Adam's Ark"? Is Apollo's REAL name Skyler? Are Vipers actually "Starhounds"?

Alot of people don't call Gal1980 canon...or at least they don't accept it into their perception of the reality of Galactica, but then there are folks who ONLY accept the "Return of Starbuck" episode as canon (or some strange re-telling of that episode sans the baby Doctor Zee and the angel chick).

Okay, even I can see that I'm belaboring the point, so the basic center of my line of question is: when do the nascent design ideas become accepted into the canon?

or

When does an acorn actually become an oak tree?

However, back to your original question.
The concept of the Cylon, is that it was created in humanoid form directly emulating the most effective 'shape' that it's creators had encountered (with Iblis' influence). To pose the question 'Why should a Cylon rifle have a trigger?' is to ask 'Why make them humanoid at all?'.

That begins the great debate of production reality versus story reality. The real-world reason the cylons were humanoid is because they needed to be depicted on-screen as someone inside a costume.

In a perfect reality, story-wise AND production-wise, the cylons might not have been humanoid at all. The pseudo-explanation that Apollo gives about the human form being the most efficient (or is it the most adaptable?) is patently absurd... especially when you try to apply the design to a mechanical construct. We operate physically as well as we do because we are NOT made of metal. We are a constantly renewing biological mass. For what we are, we have many superior features that machines do not. For what they are, machines have many superior traits that we do not. To make a machine try to be a humanoid is to limit the effectiveness of the machine's design. You can design much more efficient machines to acheive the same goals without making them humanoid. Look at the "machines" in The Matrix.

But the two most influential forces in the development of the cylons from a television production standpoint were a) the practical need to put a human in a suit to represent the bad guy and b) the expectation of the viewing audience based upon decades of sci-fi tradition. That includes Star Wars.

So, in the story-reality, we must accept that the cylons are humanoid robots. And that's that. And along with that, it is presented to us that they carry a weapon that is completely separate from themselves.

But since your design has such intrinsic limitations, why weren't the possible mechanical advantages, where available, exploited?

That's why I wonder about the whole trigger issue. If you had to make a weapon with which to fight a similar enemy to yourself, and you could create that weapon so it couldn't be used by the enemy, why wouldn't you?

The same line of questioning could be applied to the Raider craft. Why do Raiders have a pressurized cabin? Okay, Baltar's personal craft would, but what about the ones they send out to get blown to bits? Same deal.


Is a 'hand' the most effective weapons platform?
Would a society that can produce technology of that level need to employ Centurions in menial 'operator' tasks when integrated machines would clearly be simpler?
Would they need to tie up three Centurions to fly a fighter that still isn't a match for a single seater Viper?

It leads to the question: how do you view the Cylons?
If you see them as mere machines, then these incongruities, and seeming inconsistencies are going to seem like obvious flaws.
If however you view them as sentient cybernetic or artificial lifeforms then it's not such a problem.
It all gets a bit 'zen' at that point though.

Draco :cylon:

I think we're both persuing the same line of questioning... ony at different angles. You're right about "how to view the cylons". I haven't seen anything in the series that would lead me to believe that they are cybernetic in any way. Feel free to point out examples to the contrary! :)

-Gordon :salute:

[Centurion Draco]

Draco,

Without the use of smileys, I want to set the tone for this exchange as a friendly one. PLEASE do not infer a confrontational tone to my responses! Okay?
I think this is a great line of investigative thinking and want to run some of it down to see where it lands. I am being critical, but only to the concept and perceptions... NOT to anyone in particular. If I get too convoluted in my points, just tell me to stifle it and we can move on. :salute: So here we go:



Okay, I'll grant that. But the "one colony-one battlestar" theory is also a popular concept that bears no canonical support. Please read on.



Then the question falls to the age-old perspective question of "what is canon?". Should all developmental sketches not seen in the show be considered canon?

It is nice when we get a chance to see (through notes or sketches) what the designers were thinking when they arrived at the final designs for any particular element of a popular show like Galactica. But changes accrued by the needs of practicality or even whim are what dictate the final product. Since it was decided that the Cylon warriors would carry their weapon instead of having it as an intrinsic element, does it indeed matter that the nozzle on their gauntlet was originally intended as a gun?

Hell Gordon!
I don't see ANY confrontation between us. I hope you don't think I'm looking to agitate you when we talk about this kind of thing wether we agree or disagree, because thats not my intent at all.

So much of what we're discussing is open to personal interpretation, and anything we can argue over has already been thrashed out to the Nth degree by a million other fans over the years. Its all a bit of fun, and thanks for making it clear that you feel the same way. Agree or disagree, its all good as far as I'm concerned!

I agree that things get very murky when you start to include dev'/concept sketches, but I only included the one of the arm-gun, as it accurately depicts the same 'item' as is on the 'finished' Centurion, as seen 'on screen'.
If you believe that it's concept was significantly altered from sketch to execution, then you can argue that the nozzel on the wrist armour is no longer intended to be a side-arm.
Does it matter? Not really.
My initial point was that the arm-gun is the only thing that does fit with you point about integrated weapons, and the 'norm' for Cylon society is the well established paradox.

Canon example: The Lost Warrior. Red Eye needs to use a Colonial laser pistol. Why? If he didn't have his standard issue cylon rifle, why wouldn't he use the built-in gun? The story precluded the notion that it was a weapon. It would have been a perfect opportunity to show it as one. But they decided, either conciously or unconciously, to forego that concept to support a storyline in which it wasn't or at least wasn't recognized as one. Even by the being who posessed it. They needed it to not be a weapon so they could have a wild-west styled shoot out.

The intent of the creators is something all at once to be admired and respected, but at what point in the development does something become a real piece of the show's reality and when is it left behind with the stuff that isn't? Should we all be referring to the Galactica as "Adam's Ark"? Is Apollo's REAL name Skyler? Are Vipers actually "Starhounds"?

One of my favourite episodes!
If you take the arm-gun as a side-arm, short range secondary weapon etc, then add the advantages of a non-integrated weapon for a humanoid etc, and the fact that 'Red-Eye' is operating without the possibility of re-charging power, I don't have a problem with him wanting to use the hugely powerful colonial pistol for as long as it lasts.

I think the bigger question is how did he initially defeat Martin and take the pistol from him?
Perhaps with the arm-gun? ;)

I can't see your point about the original name for Apollo etc?
The arm-gun IS real, does make it to the final show, and every Centurion has it, so it's existance is not in question, only it's function.

The best example of an unamended 'name change' causing a problem is in Serina's line about 'The Star Kobol' which many believe to simply be a mistaken inclusion of an unamended line of draft dialogue that should have been changed to read 'Star Atlantia'.


Alot of people don't call Gal1980 canon...or at least they don't accept it into their perception of the reality of Galactica, but then there are folks who ONLY accept the "Return of Starbuck" episode as canon (or some strange re-telling of that episode sans the baby Doctor Zee and the angel chick).

Okay, even I can see that I'm belaboring the point, so the basic center of my line of question is: when do the nascent design ideas become accepted into the canon?

or

When does an acorn actually become an oak tree?



That begins the great debate of production reality versus story reality. The real-world reason the cylons were humanoid is because they needed to be depicted on-screen as someone inside a costume.

In a perfect reality, story-wise AND production-wise, the cylons might not have been humanoid at all. The pseudo-explanation that Apollo gives about the human form being the most efficient (or is it the most adaptable?) is patently absurd... especially when you try to apply the design to a mechanical construct. We operate physically as well as we do because we are NOT made of metal. We are a constantly renewing biological mass. For what we are, we have many superior features that machines do not. For what they are, machines have many superior traits that we do not. To make a machine try to be a humanoid is to limit the effectiveness of the machine's design. You can design much more efficient machines to acheive the same goals without making them humanoid. Look at the "machines" in The Matrix.

But the two most influential forces in the development of the cylons from a television production standpoint were a) the practical need to put a human in a suit to represent the bad guy and b) the expectation of the viewing audience based upon decades of sci-fi tradition. That includes Star Wars.

So, in the story-reality, we must accept that the cylons are humanoid robots. And that's that. And along with that, it is presented to us that they carry a weapon that is completely separate from themselves.

But since your design has such intrinsic limitations, why weren't the possible mechanical advantages, where available, exploited?

That's why I wonder about the whole trigger issue. If you had to make a weapon with which to fight a similar enemy to yourself, and you could create that weapon so it couldn't be used by the enemy, why wouldn't you?

The same line of questioning could be applied to the Raider craft. Why do Raiders have a pressurized cabin? Okay, Baltar's personal craft would, but what about the ones they send out to get blown to bits? Same deal.



I think we're both persuing the same line of questioning... ony at different angles. You're right about "how to view the cylons". I haven't seen anything in the series that would lead me to believe that they are cybernetic in any way. Feel free to point out examples to the contrary! :)

-Gordon :salute:

I don't think we disagree on a lot of the above.
G80 is well into the realms of cherry picking, and few fans accept it wholey as gospel.
But the arm-gun is there for all to see, we have it's evolution and it's 'reality', so my point would be 'why deny the evidence of our eyes?'

As for the Cylon's origins, and evolution?
Their humaniod shape, evolution and the influence of Count Iblis etc, are all up for some discussion, and had we gotten a second and subsequent seasons we would have had some of these questions answered.
As it is, we can only go on the 'snippets' of info we were given and fill in the gaps ourselves.
To answer the questions of: why humanoid? we need to understand the motivations of their Reptilian creators and Count Iblis influence upon them.

As for pressurised cabins on Raiders, or atmosphere inside Base-Stars, clearly we are into the realms of 'whats best for a tv show', but if you wish to find an excuse, then the Cylons initally were developed alongside organics, and still use sound to vocalise simple communication, presumably to originally communicate with organics. Sound dosent travel in a vacuum, so an atmosphere is essential.

As for the 'essence' of the Cylons...
I know there is a lot of different viewpoints on this, ranging from 100% mechanical automatons, to oragnics in suits (like in Richards works).

My personal view from my understanding of the eveidence provided is this:
That they are essentially artificial lifeforms, with complex artificial 'minds' that mimic an organic model in form and function.
I think they were developed to emulate the organic warriors they replaced, with an emphesis on those traits deemed most desirable.
There are plenty of 'emotions' shown by Cylons throughout the series, even Red-Eye 'senses' things.
I think that GAL was influenced by Asimov, and perhaps that 'flattery' helped to impress Asimov enough to get him onboard for season 2 (if the rumours are true).

[spcglider]

Hell Gordon!
I don't see ANY confrontation between us. I hope you don't think I'm looking to agitate you when we talk about this kind of thing wether we agree or disagree, because thats not my intent at all.

Just had to preface... its always that which remains UN-said that causes problems.
Glad you feel the way you do! I've gotten into some really tough spots by not making sure everyone in the room is on the same discourse track and taking it in an intellectual manner and not a knee-kerk emotional one. Its easy to take things personally. I know I've been guilty of it from time to time.


So much of what we're discussing is open to personal interpretation, and anything we can argue over has already been thrashed out to the Nth degree by a million other fans over the years. Its all a bit of fun, and thanks for making it clear that you feel the same way. Agree or disagree, its all good as far as I'm concerned!

Absolutely! Care to agree on a "pain word" so we don't overstep bounaries? (Just kidding! Sado-masochist joke there...)


I agree that things get very murky when you start to include dev'/concept sketches, but I only included the one of the arm-gun, as it accurately depicts the same 'item' as is on the 'finished' Centurion, as seen 'on screen'.
If you believe that it's concept was significantly altered from sketch to execution, then you can argue that the nozzel on the wrist armour is no longer intended to be a side-arm.
Does it matter? Not really.
My initial point was that the arm-gun is the only thing that does fit with you point about integrated weapons, and the 'norm' for Cylon society is the well established paradox.

One of my main troubles with the design being a weapon is that it bears very little or no resemblance to any other Cylon weapon emitter (of which we know only three). The cylon Rifle and the cylon pistol both have that lovely hunk of semi-transparent acrylic on the end that serves as a design continuity cue. The thingie on their wrist looks more like a microphone or a garden sprinkler head. Two things can detract from this argument: 1) the weapon on the wrist might NOT be the same type of weapon as their guns, and B) there is no evidence that the Raider weaponry has lovely translucent acrylic at the emitter end (of course, a weapon of that size may operate on different principles so point-counter-point!)


One of my favourite episodes!
If you take the arm-gun as a side-arm, short range secondary weapon etc, then add the advantages of a non-integrated weapon for a humanoid etc, and the fact that 'Red-Eye' is operating without the possibility of re-charging power, I don't have a problem with him wanting to use the hugely powerful colonial pistol for as long as it lasts.

I think the bigger question is how did he initially defeat Martin and take the pistol from him?
Perhaps with the arm-gun? ;)


I always thought Red-Eye SNEAKED UP on Martin and plucked it, fairy-like, from his holster!! :rotf:


I can't see your point about the original name for Apollo etc?

I was referring to all of the blatant changes made in pre-production to elements of the show. It was a bit of a stretch, but the point was "where do you draw the line on creator intent?" In one of Ralph McQuarrie's concept sketches, the centurion looks almost entirely different and Baltar has a beard. We know John Colicos never sported facial hair (except for false stubble) at any time during the series, so how far do we bend our perceptions to accept that somehow, somewhere, in some fashion Baltar had a full, bushy beard and a bad Obi-wan Kenobi haircut? Its great fun to try to reason it all out, but to my way of thinking (which you may disagree with) it falls only in the category of "fan fun".

Now, for those of us who desire "more input"... the develpmental materials that become available after-the-fact are a GREAT playground for inspiration. Like I said, they give us a fantastic look into what the creators were thinking when they finally settled on what we saw in the show.


The arm-gun IS real, does make it to the final show, and every Centurion has it, so it's existance is not in question, only it's function.

Exactly my point. We have arrived at the same place via different trains! Although I personally would refrain from calling it a "gun" per se and probably just call it a "nubbin"... but only because I like the word "nubbin"!! :D


I don't think we disagree on a lot of the above.
G80 is well into the realms of cherry picking, and few fans accept it wholey as gospel.
But the arm-gun is there for all to see, we have it's evolution and it's 'reality', so my point would be 'why deny the evidence of our eyes?'

Because, like in many motion pictures and television shows, what appears to be one thing can often be something entirely different.

Personally? I think it'd be a hoot if that nubbin were a cigarette lighter! :rotf:


As for the Cylon's origins, and evolution?
Their humaniod shape, evolution and the influence of Count Iblis etc, are all up for some discussion, and had we gotten a second and subsequent seasons we would have had some of these questions answered.
As it is, we can only go on the 'snippets' of info we were given and fill in the gaps ourselves.
To answer the questions of: why humanoid? we need to understand the motivations of their Reptilian creators and Count Iblis influence upon them.

There's no shame to the very simple assumption that the original Cylon reptilian race just LIKED the look of the human form. WE as a race tend to design one thing after another simply because we enjoy the aesthetic. Think about the Art Deco movement or even better, the Art Neuvau movement. Art Neuvau (sp?) uses TONS of influence from nature, especially stuff like insect wings and stuff.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that there doesn't really NEED to be a PRACTICAL reason for the Cylon robot humanoid shape. Maybe the reptilian Cylons just thought it was a groovy, artistic style.


As for pressurised cabins on Raiders, or atmosphere inside Base-Stars, clearly we are into the realms of 'whats best for a tv show', but if you wish to find an excuse, then the Cylons initally were developed alongside organics, and still use sound to vocalise simple communication, presumably to originally communicate with organics. Sound dosent travel in a vacuum, so an atmosphere is essential.

Then the Cylon Empire is doomed. While I find your explanation to be wholly logical and acceptable, it means that the Cylon robts are incapable of determining inefficiencies in their system and streamlining them out in subsequent models. They are incapable of self-examination on a base design level. It will take another, enslaved or subjugated race to re-design them and make the next generation more mechanically efficient. Perhaps the Cylons have no concept of evolution?


As for the 'essence' of the Cylons...
I know there is a lot of different viewpoints on this, ranging from 100% mechanical automatons, to oragnics in suits (like in Richards works).

I don't buy in to that one. Personal choice.


My personal view from my understanding of the eveidence provided is this:
That they are essentially artificial lifeforms, with complex artificial 'minds' that mimic an organic model in form and function.
I think they were developed to emulate the organic warriors they replaced, with an emphesis on those traits deemed most desirable.
There are plenty of 'emotions' shown by Cylons throughout the series, even Red-Eye 'senses' things.
I think that GAL was influenced by Asimov, and perhaps that 'flattery' helped to impress Asimov enough to get him onboard for season 2 (if the rumours are true).

I like straight up robotic menace. Once again, personal choice. :salute:

-Gordon

[Damocles]

I guess what I'm suggesting is that there doesn't really NEED to be a PRACTICAL reason for the Cylon robot humanoid shape. Maybe the reptilian Cylons just thought it was a groovy, artistic style.

Style versus function;

Art deco;

http://www.paris.org/Curiosites/Blvd.emile.augier/gifs/art.deco.door.jpg

Gothic;

http://www.achome.co.uk/artsandcraftshome/artsandcraftshome/sub64.jpg

Romanesque;

http://www.thepotteries.org/cemetery/hartshill/chapel4.jpg

Notice the common features? Door handles and hinges?

Now lets look at this form;

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/anatomy/skeleton/skelcolor.GIF

And look at this form

http://www.polyu.edu.hk/rec/images/icmebr_image01.gif

And consider;

http://www.army-technology.com/contractor_images/telerob/3_Teo1.jpg

What makes a tool user?

You can change the style;

http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=138

But you still have an arm and a hand and an eye that perform those functions.

and it is mobile.

There are solutions that defy style that demand functionality to be.

Consider the car.

Three wheels minimum, a means to steer, some means to carry a passenger/driver and protect the same from the weather, and an engine to provide motive power.

No matter the style, its going to be ultimately a box on wheels.

Your Cylon will have to conform to function, no matter the style.

As Always;

[spcglider]

Damocles,

Point taken. The individual parts must be what they must be. But the arrangement of those parts are what dictates the humanoid form. If the Cylons had been attracted to the form of say, a spider (or "crawlon" if you like show terminology), they might have used THAT form for inspiration. Not the humanoid form.

That is the very definition of style. The art deco door has the same function as the gothic door. But you cannot call them vice-versa when you refer to style.

That's what I'm talking about here.

The door needs to fulfill a function to be called a door. Though you have many different types of doors. Roll-up styled doors, revolving doors, double doors, curtain doors, bi-fold doors, etc. They all serve the same function. Some better than others for different applications. But a metal roll-up garage door, in design, is far removed from a hinged 6 panel oak manor door.

And every one of those door types can be rendered in style. Art Deco, Mission, Gothic, Art Neuvau, Colonial, Rustic, you name it.

And the variation one can acheive with these combination of elements can be staggering. In the end, providing the same service, but in completely different ways. And with a completely different style.

So, the Cylons are going to build robotic "police officers" for some reason. They will be built to perform specific functions over a broad spectrum of environments. They will be required to apply lethal and non-lethal force. They will need to be equipped with ambulatory systems and all that goes with them to make them function in their role. Yadda yadda yadda... functon parameters... yadda yadda.

If they decided to take every mechanical advantage (since they have already decided that these will be robotic in nature and not organic), it is highly possible that the final form could be something very dissimilar to that of a human.

There are many designs that are mechanically superior to the human form. Especially if you're trying to recreate the human form in something other than organic materials.

Two legs is a pretty unstable platform. The balancing mechanism for the robot will need to be exceptional to allow for that. OR you could plan a design with more than two legs... if you decide that legs are necessary at all. Look at your own example of the Imperial Probe Droid. Doesn't look very humanoid to me.


-Gorodn

[spcglider]

Uhhh.. anyway. What I meant to suggest is that, perhaps, the decision to make the Cylon warrior in humaoid form might have been an artistic call instead of a practical one.

-G

[Damocles]

Damocles,

Point taken. The individual parts must be what they must be. But the arrangement of those parts are what dictates the humanoid form. If the Cylons had been attracted to the form of say, a spider (or "crawlon" if you like show terminology), they might have used THAT form for inspiration. Not the humanoid form.

That is the very definition of style. The art deco door has the same function as the gothic door. But you cannot call them vice-versa when you refer to style.

That's what I'm talking about here.

The door needs to fulfill a function to be called a door. Though you have many different types of doors. Roll-up styled doors, revolving doors, double doors, curtain doors, bi-fold doors, etc. They all serve the same function. Some better than others for different applications. But a metal roll-up garage door, in design, is far removed from a hinged 6 panel oak manor door.

And every one of those door types can be rendered in style. Art Deco, Mission, Gothic, Art Neuvau, Colonial, Rustic, you name it.

And the variation one can acheive with these combination of elements can be staggering. In the end, providing the same service, but in completely different ways. And with a completely different style.

So, the Cylons are going to build robotic "police officers" for some reason. They will be built to perform specific functions over a broad spectrum of environments. They will be required to apply lethal and non-lethal force. They will need to be equipped with ambulatory systems and all that goes with them to make them function in their role. Yadda yadda yadda... functon parameters... yadda yadda.

If they decided to take every mechanical advantage (since they have already decided that these will be robotic in nature and not organic), it is highly possible that the final form could be something very dissimilar to that of a human.

There are many designs that are mechanically superior to the human form. Especially if you're trying to recreate the human form in something other than organic materials.

Two legs is a pretty unstable platform. The balancing mechanism for the robot will need to be exceptional to allow for that. OR you could plan a design with more than two legs... if you decide that legs are necessary at all. Look at your own example of the Imperial Probe Droid. Doesn't look very humanoid to me.


-Gorodn

Gordon;

The roll up door uses a wheel action in its rollers and has a handle.

The pivot hinge door uses a wheel action at the pivot.(The hinge rotates in the arc.)

The roll up door has a handle.

The imperial probe droid or most human machines don't use legs, but use wheels as this is possible for us to build. It is simple and efficient. If you know the flagellum;

http://www.arn.org/docs/mm/flag_labels.jpg

you will understand that;

http://www.hnsa.org/handbook/cora_files/image019.jpg

Form follows function.

The Imperial probe droid is a hover-bot but it falls within the above paradign.

Give it legs or stick it on a chassis with wheels and it would pass for a more recognizable symmetric planform with the sense cluster concentrated in an assembly to co-ordinate manipulators while the locomotor is a separate assembly at the other end.

Something oddball like a hover-fan not immediately recognizable as legs or wheels is not going to change that functional architecture.

The style is the surface detail and decoration. It is not the FORM.

Same goes for the spiderbot which follows the manipulators sense cluster concentration separate from the locomotor assembly planform.

To get away from that, you need to design a distributed architecture Cylon that uses photo-electreic cells all over its shiny tubular body, wriggles like a snake, and uses radar all over its segmented body. You would have to posit electro-magnetic fields to manipulate tools and materials remotely(It would need a gun assembly toi emit this magnetic hand at its ^head^.) and you would have to design it asymmetrically(like a lopsided tadpole) to break the symmetry rule of function.

That machine would still use tools that we would recognize as human usable. A wrench is still a wrench as is the nut that it tightens on the bolt.

As always;

[spcglider]

Damocles,

There are a finite amount of "simple machines" from which one may design a mechanical apparatus. What you're saying is that no matter what the form, the simple machines from which it is built are all the same. But at the same time it seems that you're trying to say that no matter what, the Cylons would have created the warror robots in humanoid form anyway because ...?

I need you to focus your point so I can understand. Are you waxing eloquent or do you actually dis-agree with me? I'm confused by your presentation.

My point is that the original Cylon race might have simply thought that the humanoid form was "sexy" and didn't give a rip whether or not it was ultimately practical. It was an aesthetic choice that appealed to their eye and filled the basic need they envisioned. The choice was made artistically and all subsequent decisions followed from that.

As for the definition of style, I was using the word interchangably with "design". Sorry if there was confusion. Call it poetic license. You are correct that "style" and "form" are different in definition. And can mean different things to an engineer versus an artist.


That machine would still use tools that we would recognize as human usable. A wrench is still a wrench as is the nut that it tightens on the bolt.


Yes, but a wrench is completely useless when you want to undo-a screw. As is the index finger, chopsticks, tennis shoes, and carburator.

-G

[Damocles]

Damocles,

There are a finite amount of "simple machines" from which one may design a mechanical apparatus. What you're saying is that no matter what the form, the simple machines from which it is built are all the same. But at the same time it seems that you're trying to say that no matter what, the Cylons would have created the warrior robots in humanoid form anyway because ...?


Let me clarify this, Gordon. Land mobile machine design criteria requiring manipulators is the base requirement. It could have one arm, two arms, four arms, three arms, five arms, etc.: but the imperatives here are mechanical and functional simplicity. So two arms are what I would expect. It is the minimum number required to allow for redundancy, while retaining mechanical simplicity. You design to minimums needed to avoid waste when you design a mass quantity output object(animal or machine).

You try for minimum wastage in this entropic universe.

I need you to focus your point so I can understand. Are you waxing eloquent or do you actually dis-agree with me? I'm confused by your presentation.

The point is clear; that the requirement(function) drives form, while style though aesthetic; dresses the form.

My point is that the original Cylon race might have simply thought that the humanoid form was "sexy" and didn't give a rip whether or not it was ultimately practical. It was an aesthetic choice that appealed to their eye and filled the basic need they envisioned. The choice was made artistically and all subsequent decisions followed from that.

My point is that tool using land animals and cross terrain tool using robots will have to fulfill the same design criteria, and will mostly look alike with the exception that you might find wheels, hover fans, and tracks in place of legs. So the Reptiles should have looked something like this joker;

http://www.tvacres.com/images/sleestak_enik2.jpg

As for the definition of style, I was using the word interchangably with "design". Sorry if there was confusion. Call it poetic license. You are correct that "style" and "form" are different in definition. And can mean different things to an engineer versus an artist.

Agreed.

Yes, but a wrench is completely useless when you want to undo-a screw. As is the index finger, chopsticks, tennis shoes, and carburator......

-G

Which is why the Cylon uses a functional HAND(with its nub a THUMB) so he can manipulate screwdrivers, chopsticks, put on tennis shoes, adjust the flapper on the carburetor, and give you the emphatic gesture. :D

As always.

[spcglider]

Which is why the Cylon uses a functional HAND(with its nub a THUMB) so he can manipulate screwdrivers, chopsticks, put on tennis shoes, adjust the flapper on the carburetor, and give you the emphatic gesture. :D



And THAT is where your point completely breaks down. I challenge you to do ANY of the above while wearing Armadillo Thumb hockey gloves!!! :rotf: :salute: ;)

-G

[Damocles]

And THAT is where your point completely breaks down. I challenge you to do ANY of the above while wearing Armadillo Thumb hockey gloves!!! :rotf: :salute: ;)

-G

That Cylon still needs HANDS to play ice-hockey; especially if he is a GOALIE!

http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=froogle&start=0&num=3&q=http://store.yahoo.com/skatebuys/basegocagl.html&e=13884&fr=ADaccwOSJjIB_Z5V7s_PlVI0WcE_GIr2KgAAAAAAAAAA (http://)

As always; :salute:

[spcglider]

Not if he's a GOALIE-BOT and has a stick INSTEAD of hands.

Irreducable complexity my foot! :P

Cheers,
Gordon

[Damocles]

Not if he's a GOALIE-BOT and has a stick INSTEAD of hands.

Irreducable complexity my foot! :P

Cheers,
Gordon

The goalie-bot has to be able to CATCH. ;)

Don't confuse me with an (un)intelligent Design nut, Gordon.

I simply point out that systems organization is entropic, function driven, and parallel in outcome when the function fulfilled is similar. Wings?

As always.

[spcglider]

The goalie-bot has to be able to CATCH. ;)

Don't confuse me with an (un)intelligent Design nut, Gordon.

I wouldn't insult you that way! You got FAR too much respect for reality. The comment was comedic and not pointed. Sorry if it appeared so.


I simply point out that systems organization is entropic, function driven, and parallel in outcome when the function fulfilled is similar. Wings?


MMMMM.....Wiiiiiings. One dozen with hot garlic barbecue sauce, please!

-G

[Centurion Draco]

Just had to preface... its always that which remains UN-said that causes problems.
Glad you feel the way you do! I've gotten into some really tough spots by not making sure everyone in the room is on the same discourse track and taking it in an intellectual manner and not a knee-kerk emotional one. Its easy to take things personally. I know I've been guilty of it from time to time.

lol, you're totally right, I've done the same myself in the past, and had people jump down my throat for expressing an opinion to the point where I've stopped posting on their websites! So you're right, its best to be up-front.
Thanks for taking the time to say it.


Absolutely! Care to agree on a "pain word" so we don't overstep bounaries? (Just kidding! Sado-masochist joke there...)


:rotf: I can think of a few......
Better not though.

One of my main troubles with the design being a weapon is that it bears very little or no resemblance to any other Cylon weapon emitter (of which we know only three). The cylon Rifle and the cylon pistol both have that lovely hunk of semi-transparent acrylic on the end that serves as a design continuity cue. The thingie on their wrist looks more like a microphone or a garden sprinkler head. Two things can detract from this argument: 1) the weapon on the wrist might NOT be the same type of weapon as their guns, and B) there is no evidence that the Raider weaponry has lovely translucent acrylic at the emitter end (of course, a weapon of that size may operate on different principles so point-counter-point!)

True, it doesn't have the clear 'emitter', thats why I always fancied it as a flame unit.


I always thought Red-Eye SNEAKED UP on Martin and plucked it, fairy-like, from his holster!! :rotf:


I love the whole 'Shane' remake that is 'Lost Warrior'. But how he killed Martin always made me wonder.

I was referring to all of the blatant changes made in pre-production to elements of the show. It was a bit of a stretch, but the point was "where do you draw the line on creator intent?" In one of Ralph McQuarrie's concept sketches, the centurion looks almost entirely different and Baltar has a beard. We know John Colicos never sported facial hair (except for false stubble) at any time during the series, so how far do we bend our perceptions to accept that somehow, somewhere, in some fashion Baltar had a full, bushy beard and a bad Obi-wan Kenobi haircut? Its great fun to try to reason it all out, but to my way of thinking (which you may disagree with) it falls only in the category of "fan fun".

Now, for those of us who desire "more input"... the develpmental materials that become available after-the-fact are a GREAT playground for inspiration. Like I said, they give us a fantastic look into what the creators were thinking when they finally settled on what we saw in the show.


I agree that the Arm-gun is an unused (perhaps overlooked) element.
But it's that Centurion design that was eventually adopted and used. The only real difference is that their 'essence' was changed from cyborg to android.
The R-McQ designs are also a big favourite of mine! I particularly like the one with the 360 scanner eye! Very cool, Cylons with eyes in the backs of their heads.


Exactly my point. We have arrived at the same place via different trains! Although I personally would refrain from calling it a "gun" per se and probably just call it a "nubbin"... but only because I like the word "nubbin"!! :D



Because, like in many motion pictures and television shows, what appears to be one thing can often be something entirely different.

Personally? I think it'd be a hoot if that nubbin were a cigarette lighter! :rotf:

Ah, but as we have a dev' sketch of the Centurion design we ended up with, and it clearly states 'arm gun' why look for a different use for it?

There's no shame to the very simple assumption that the original Cylon reptilian race just LIKED the look of the human form. WE as a race tend to design one thing after another simply because we enjoy the aesthetic. Think about the Art Deco movement or even better, the Art Neuvau movement. Art Neuvau (sp?) uses TONS of influence from nature, especially stuff like insect wings and stuff.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that there doesn't really NEED to be a PRACTICAL reason for the Cylon robot humanoid shape. Maybe the reptilian Cylons just thought it was a groovy, artistic style.

Agreed, It may simply have been tradition that dictated to the Cylons that robotic warriors should look like real warriors.
Alternatively, it may have been so that they could initially function alongside organics.


Then the Cylon Empire is doomed. While I find your explanation to be wholly logical and acceptable, it means that the Cylon robts are incapable of determining inefficiencies in their system and streamlining them out in subsequent models. They are incapable of self-examination on a base design level. It will take another, enslaved or subjugated race to re-design them and make the next generation more mechanically efficient. Perhaps the Cylons have no concept of evolution?



I don't buy in to that one. Personal choice.



I like straight up robotic menace. Once again, personal choice. :salute:

-Gordon
Hmmm, Lucifer refers to Spectre as 'an earlier model' so there must be some element of 'evolution'. However, I believe that Cylons are essentially 'alive' albeit artificial. In fact Lucifer tries to make that point to Baltar when he's sending the Base-Star's squadrons on a one way mission. Which is one of the reasons why I believe that they don't allow the line between 'machine' and 'Cylon' to become blurred.
They are a proud race of warriors.

[spcglider]

Well, since i am familiar with Mr. Probert, the fellow who designed the daggit-gone thing in the first place, I dropped him an email and questioned him about it. I will report his exact reply when it comes.

Most likely it will amount to, "Why don't you kids find some thign better to talk about?" But you never know! :salute:

-G

[Centurion Draco]

Well, since i am familiar with Mr. Probert, the fellow who designed the daggit-gone thing in the first place, I dropped him an email and questioned him about it. I will report his exact reply when it comes.

Most likely it will amount to, "Why don't you kids find some thign better to talk about?" But you never know! :salute:

-G

LOL, you shameless name-dropper!

What did you ask him?
A simple: Does he feels that they kept his design for an arm-gun on the finished Centurion?
Or
Did you lead the witness?
Or butter him up with bare faced toadying?
You could blackmail him into agreeing it's some kind of Halon system for extinguishing electrical fires!
No there's only one way to be sure, we need to get all the designers together, with Glen, and Dyksra, and the network exec's who did the cutting off of balls (removing of weapons), and ask them on neutral ground in front of witnesses!


It's the only way to be sure ;)

[cobrastrikelead]

I like the look of the Cylon-laser-rifle, but that's my opinion.

If anything, the human-style hand would be a highly advantageous apparatus. It Can grasp, scoop, turn, point, poke, etc. It is a veritable swiss-army knife of tools, so any self-respecting Cylon could equip themself with a pair of hands (and even that is anotr way of grasping, opposing hands) and not having to go around like an R2D2.
And perhaps not having the weapons endemically built into the Centurion, provides extra space within the exoskelelton for memory, sensory, locomotion, agility mechanisms. Something like the modern jet-fighter having hardpoints on the outside of the jet for bombs guns and missiles while leaving on-board space for computers, radar, navigation, etc.

And if you were a Centurion, and you were tasked with going out on a cold, dark planetoid to look for Messrs Apollo, Starbuck, and Boomer, which would you prefer to equip yourself with? A Mouse? A Joystick? A Roller-ball? A Keyboard?

Perhaps with a Colonial Warrior possibly waiting in ambush up the next box canyon, a laser-rifle with a hair-trigger would be most reinforcing.

[Damocles]

I like the look of the Cylon-laser-rifle, but that's my opinion.

<snip>

And if you were a Centurion, and you were tasked with going out on a cold, dark planetoid to look for Messrs Apollo, Starbuck, and Boomer, which would you prefer to equip yourself with? A Mouse? A Joystick? A Roller-ball? A Keyboard?

Perhaps with a Colonial Warrior possibly waiting in ambush up the next box canyon, a laser-rifle with a hair-trigger would be most reinforcing.

In the vacuum of space on a spinning nickel iron rock with no traction, no nice warm fuzzy atmosphere and Colonials hiding in the craters?


Rocket propelled grenade;
http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/imgs/rpg7.jpg

To shred those Colonial space suits with spall. You know the Cylon can't hit the broad side of a berm. Proximity burst weapon!

Magnetic boots;
http://www.geocities.com/televisioncity/studio/7792/bey/bey42.jpg

So that Cy doesn't launch himself into the air as a free drift target shot for Starbuck.

and infrared goggles;
http://www.adorama.com/images/Product/NLG.jpg

to pick out the bright warm Colonials among the dull dim cold rocks.

As always; :salute:

[spcglider]

I wouldn't argue the whole human-hand concept and still don't. :)

Off the bat I accept that the cylon warrior is humanoid. I don't want to suggest changing what we see in the show. No point in that.

But we're talking about a design of robotic warrior that can obviously be outrun by a six-year-old child (as evidenced in The Young Warriors) and outmaneuvered by his biological enemies. Cylon Centurions are just big, lumbering tanks in human form. Their accuracy with the rifle leaves alot to be desired and their agility is pathetic at best. ;)

It is obviously a weakness in the Cylon warrior design that his enemies can take away his weapon on the battlefeild and use it against him... humanoid form notwithstanding. Especially when, by design, they could make the weapon so it could be fired ONLY by a cylon warrior. How? By electronic impulse or something that humans are just not equipped with like a micro-tendril that actually infiltrates the exterior of the gun to reach a triggering mechanism on the inside of the weapon. Something humans can't do.

The Cylon garrison on Attilla got their butts kicked time and again by just this very problem. Especially since, by virtue of their non-agility, they couldn't keep the children from walking off with their weapons (not just guns, but BOMBS fer cryin' out loud!).

A hair trigger? How about no physical trigger at all? That would decrease your firing time (by whatever hundredth of a micron) far better than just making a physically sensitive switch. :salute:

-Gordon

[Damocles]

I wouldn't argue the whole human-hand concept and still don't. :)

Three opposed finger clamps, if you build a physical mechanical gripper so you can clutch odd-shaped objects. Five, if your build a polymer plastic-based gripper so that you have minimal digit redundancy. I still wonder when the second opposable thumb is going to show up in the human body form. It is so logical from a dexterity point of view. We'll have to wait for the next brain change for it I suppose.(the last one being the sudden urge to build hives[cities] that overtook us about ten thousand years ago.) .

Off the bat I accept that the cylon warrior is humanoid. I don't want to suggest changing what we see in the show. No point in that.

Film is first and best evidence always. :)

But we're talking about a design of robotic warrior that can obviously be outrun by a six-year-old child (as evidenced in The Young Warriors) and outmaneuvered by his biological enemies. Cylon Centurions are just big, lumbering tanks in human form. Their accuracy with the rifle leaves alot to be desired and their agility is pathetic at best. ;)

Not as weird as it sounds. Our best small radio controlled airplanes would still have to go a long way to be as maneuverable or graceful in the air as the gooney bird. The average falcon at speed or the average bat still outperforms a human piloted machine in the air. And if it wasn't for the pulping limit of acceleration forces on us squishy bags of water, we could easily outmaneuver a UAV in the air across the potential energy envelope. However, we blackout at ten gees. We simply cannot take the strain in the rotation or the pivot that some stupid machine can. Yet, still to this day our manned aircraft can outmaneuver the simple surface to air missiles as the human pilots still outthink any home to kill logic if the pilot sees the threat coming.

The biological animal's advantage over the machine is greater on the ground.

When Cy can climb a tree carrying a rifle then Starbuck, needs to worry.(One of the reasons I suggested a hoverfan for your improved Centurion.).

It is obviously a weakness in the Cylon warrior design that his enemies can take away his weapon on the battlefeild and use it against him... humanoid form notwithstanding. Especially when, by design, they could make the weapon so it could be fired ONLY by a cylon warrior. How? By electronic impulse or something that humans are just not equipped with like a micro-tendril that actually infiltrates the exterior of the gun to reach a triggering mechanism on the inside of the weapon. Something humans can't do.

Why can't I? Its going to be a radio or contact key device that hooks to a humanoperated trigger device that you slap/glue on Cy's rifle when I design it.. Its simple to do, once you have a Cylon rifle to disassemble and analyze. A magnetic induction coil, for example, is child's play.

The Cylon garrison on Attilla got their butts kicked time and again by just this very problem. Especially since, by virtue of their non-agility, they couldn't keep the children from walking off with their weapons (not just guns, but BOMBS fer cryin' out loud!).

Agreed. Self propelled(as in primitive self-guided robotic kamikazi bombs) with an anti-tampering device is something of which the Cylons are ignorant? How about simple pressure mines?

A hair trigger? How about no physical trigger at all? That would decrease your firing time (by whatever hundredth of a micron) far better than just making a physically sensitive switch. :salute:

Gordon

You DON'T want a hairtrigger on any military weapon. Its better to have a deliberate arming sequence or an actual physically impeding squeeze to a mechanical trigger. An electrical trigger should have a deliberate idiot-proof arming cycle; so that you don't Condition One yourself as a Cylon, and blow off your leg while you march; or shoot your to-the-left -buddy(dress right dress) in the head when you inspection arms your laser rifle at one of Baltar's interminable parades.


As always; :D

[spcglider]

Why can't I? Its going to be a radio or contact key device that hooks to a human operated trigger device that you slap/glue on Cy's rifle when I design it.. Its simple to do, once you have a Cylon rifle to disassemble and analyze. A magnetic induction coil, for example, is child's play.

(since we're just making stuff up as we go...) I'm afraid that arming every warrior in the colonial military with a "cylon rifle adaptor trigger mechanism" is about as wasteful a concept as you can come up with. How many other completely remote ideas are we going to arm the grunts with? How many other unforseen events will we have to design contingency electronic adaptors for? And what if the cylon triggers are all encoded? Nope, sorry. Too many variables to waste valuable Colonial cubits running down.

We can't even get The Council Of 12 to authorize the funding for body armor for all warriors much less THAT! We just barely managed to squeeze that whole "electronic daggitt program" pork barrel through the process!


You DON'T want a hairtrigger on any military weapon. Its better to have a deliberate arming sequence or an actual physically impeding squeeze to a mechanical trigger. An electrical trigger should have a deliberate idiot-proof arming cycle; so that you don't Condition One yourself as a Cylon, and blow off your leg while you march; or shoot your to-the-left -buddy(dress right dress) in the head when you inspection arms your laser rifle at one of Baltar's interminable parades.



Agreed!

-G :salute:

[Damocles]

(since we're just making stuff up as we go...) I'm afraid that arming every warrior in the colonial military with a "cylon rifle adaptor trigger mechanism" is about as wasteful a concept as you can come up with. How many other completely remote ideas are we going to arm the grunts with? How many other unforseen events will we have to design contingency electronic adaptors for? And what if the cylon triggers are all encoded? Nope, sorry. Too many variables to waste valuable Colonial cubits running down.

We can't even get The Council Of 12 to authorize the funding for body armor for all warriors much less THAT! We just barely managed to squeeze that whole "electronic daggitt program" pork barrel through the process!

-G :salute:

I can't design for every contingency, but I can do this.

1. I can design a universal magnetic induction coil powerful enough to disable or actuate any mechanical trigger that a human being can operate, encoded or not provided that I can generate an electro-magnetic influence strong enough to overcome the mechanical or electromagnetic impedence the device offers.
2. That device can double as a Centurion ^brain scrambler^, if I can slap it on Cy's hide and establish a ground path from the contact point to his ^computer^ brain.
3. The only reason I need the Cylon rifle for the engineering is to match the inducer field to the geometry of the rifle; so that the electromagnetic influence is close enough to the trifgger mechanism to overcome the safeties.
4. Provided that I have that miraculum battery I need, it would be about the size of a deck of cards.

I would think that the Quorum would have the funds to equip our Colonial Warriors with such a magnetic-induction limpet mine.

As always, :salute:

[spcglider]

4. Provided that I have that miraculum battery I need, it would be about the size of a deck of cards.

HEY.... have you talked with the costumers and the art directors about this? You can't just go around ruining the sleek lines of the uniform willy-nilly!

There's no room in the jacket for it what with all the fumarellos and ACTUAL pyramid playing cards that REAL warriors have to carry. What will you do? Have them put it on their belt? That ruins the visual balance. Otherwise we'll have to start equipping the warriors with pants that have (GASP!!!) BACK POCKETS!!!

That'll NEVER do. No way. Ruin the perfect line of the warrior's supple-yet-firm derriere?

Are you CRAZY??? You'll crash the ratings!!! Its the END, I tell you! The show is DOOMED!!!

**********************************Wake Up, Gordon****************************

Well then, to totally drag this whole thread so far off that it'll be relatively unretreivable, I raise your concept by providing unobtainium in the form of a whole new technology.

The warriors will be packing two pistols from now on. One is an energy weapon and one is a slug-thrower.

The slug thrower will be clip-fed and supplied with bullets tipped with "cylonite"... a chemical explosive that is activated by impact with the specific surface composition of cylon armor. Much like the "Dalekinnium" created in the Dr.Who universe.

Bullets that explode only when they contact the enemy. Otherwise they're just .45 cal slugs. Limited, but VERY effective.

But before too long we'll be loading the warriors down so much with this amazing technology they'll be moving as slowly and clumsily as cylons!!!

-Gordon

[Damocles]

HEY.... have you talked with the costumers and the art directors about this? You can't just go around ruining the sleek lines of the uniform willy-nilly!

There's no room in the jacket for it what with all the fumarellos and ACTUAL pyramid playing cards that REAL warriors have to carry. What will you do? Have them put it on their belt? That ruins the visual balance. Otherwise we'll have to start equipping the warriors with pants that have (GASP!!!) BACK POCKETS!!!

That'll NEVER do. No way. Ruin the perfect line of the warrior's supple-yet-firm derriere?

Are you CRAZY??? You'll crash the ratings!!! Its the END, I tell you! The show is DOOMED!!!

**********************************Wake Up,
Gordon****************************



I'll never think like a hollywood art director, I suppose........

1. Reality. Ugly isn't it?

http://www.rap4.com/images/tacvest/us_seal_1.jpg



Well then, to totally drag this whole thread so far off that it'll be relatively unretreivable, I raise your concept by providing unobtainium in the form of a whole new technology.

The warriors will be packing two pistols from now on. One is an energy weapon and one is a slug-thrower.

The slug thrower will be clip-fed and supplied with bullets tipped with "cylonite"... a chemical explosive that is activated by impact with the specific surface composition of cylon armor. Much like the "Dalekinnium" created in the Dr.Who universe.

Bullets that explode only when they contact the enemy. Otherwise they're just .45 cal slugs. Limited, but VERY effective.

But before too long we'll be loading the warriors down so much with this amazing technology they'll be moving as slowly and clumsily as cylons!!!

-Gordon

I was still addressing the ^Why?^ trigger question and how Colonials could work Cy's ^laser^(actually a cesium ion beam?) weapon.

If you postulate that cylonite is an unobtainium alkaline metal corrosive tipped HEAT round(bullet), then I'm with you.

2. It would be logistically pointless in my opinion for the Colonials to do so; as they already have a particle beam pistol that fries Cy quite nicely.

http://battlestarfanclub.com/battlestar/photos/bgpic101.jpg

As always; :salute: