ship of lights

[SixPacWolf]

Who are the people in the ship of lights and did they help the galactica foind earth?

[BST]

"As you are now, we once were; as we are now, you may become."

That phrase from War of the Gods seems to indicate that the Light Beings were of humanoid form, at one time, and have evolved to their current status.

Another possibility is that they represent 'angels' who are representatives of a supreme being, i.e., God, and their existence may be an indication of some type of after-life.


Did they help the Colonists find Earth? Indirectly. Apparently, they provided Starbuck, Sheba, and Apollo with confirmation that Earth existed and a general course heading.

[KamikazeAthena]

According to Richard's books, they are the Lords Of Kobol. Zac is now one of them.

[Eric Paddon]

Richard's take on the subject is worth considering, but ultimately no more or less valid than anyone else's interpretation on the subject (especially in light of the other problems continuity wise inside his novels).

[BST]

I don't think that Richard's novels are considered 'canon'. However, the point is well taken, about the BOL including the Lords of Kobol. Undoubtedly, they would be there as well as others.

[Senmut]

Obviously, since they are in conflict with Iblis and his minions, they are Warriors of some sort. Analogous to the Biblical Angles, definately. How exactly they fit into the Great Chain of Being is something that the %$#&%s at ABC left us wondering, due their inability to tell good TV from schlock!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[amberstar]

Obviously, since they are in conflict with Iblis and his minions, they are Warriors of some sort. Analogous to the Biblical Angles, definately. How exactly they fit into the Great Chain of Being is something that the %$#&%s at ABC left us wondering, due their inability to tell good TV from schlock!!!!!!!!!!!!!


once again I agree with you Senmut! :salute:

[Senmut]

Thanks, Amberstar. Ever wish WE had the money and such to found our OWN TV Network? Do stuff the RIGHT way for a change?

[AJMarks]

"As you are now, we once were; as we are now, you may become."

I find this the most descriptive phrase of the BOL, in that they were once in a same position (morally, spiritually, physically and technology) as the humans on the Galactica. I see them as having shed their physical body and are now pure energy (think Vorlons in B5). They also see that we have the potential to grow to where they are now. I also view them as a completely different race and their true form is unknown.

[LZaza]

The Ship of Lights was written so enigmatically that it really left it open to interpretation. I wonder if that was taking the safe way out, or being deliberately vague? After all, people with different beliefs can define them as they chose. Angels or advanced life forms. Either way, they were seemingly guardians of the universe.

The same could be said about Iblis. Devil or mucho mondo bad guy. One size fits all.

[Athene]

I like to think that the beings on the Ship of Lights were human beings that evolved to a much more advanced form of life. There were the good and the evil. The good beings were indeed angelic and the evil one's like Iblis for example were devilish.
I think it also depends on your own perception of them.
This is how I perceived them whenever I watched the episode.

[LZaza]

The question remains how did they evolve?

If it was through death, then they're the typical Earth angels, which honestly isn't that compelling to me in sci-fi. I suppose I was hoping for something more original, but of course, they never defined the SOL Beings to clear that up for me.

[Reaper]

My take on them is closer to the difference between Humans on Earth and the "Ancients" in the various Stargate Shows.

The basic explaination is, Humans today, and as we know them, are at the least a second incarnation of the life form. BILLIONS of years ago, The Ancients (forget the acutal name for the race) existed and evolved as a life form. As they began using more and more of their minds, they achieved almost super powers. The power to heal by using their minds and whatnot. Eventually, they began using almost 100% of their brians and found a way to assend. MEaning leaving behind the mortal bodies and exsiting as pure energy. (much like the Vorlons of Babylon 5) Not every Ancient assended. you had to learn how to and in addition to learning how, you had to be ready for it and prepared.

Once assended you existed in another demention. YOu didnt' "die" so to speak, but your life Energy could be destroyed. YOu retained the power to effect things in your original demention, but could hide yourself from it as well.

Eventually, these ancients recreated the Human form. (Us) and we are on a second evolutionary trip towards that goal (even if we don't all know it) The Ancients that did assend have laws, meaning they can't give outright help to humans, humans have to reach assention on their own.

Now, Hatch calling the Beings of Light the Lords of Kobol may not be wrong. IT may very well be that the "religous" leaders of Kobol are the ones who "assended" to beings of energy (or light) And just as humans can act on good or evil rationals, so can these beings. Thus you have Iblis. It's just harder for the evil to reach this level, that's why you have one ultimate evil (Iblis) fighting against the good (beings of light). Evil, once on this level, breaks the rules, and that's why evil appears more powerful. All the beings of light could do as Iblis did, but the rules the "live" by prevent them from doing so.

This might also be supported by the fact that Adama and probably alot of Warriors from his time were taught the basics of mind control over objects. The COlonials are just starting to relearn what it would take to assend again.

[LZaza]

Ah, I like it. Very New Age. Reminiscent of the Celestine Prophecy.

I've done something similar with a character in my fanfics, who is the spiritual leader and necromancer of her people, but five stories later evolves to a Ship of Lights Being.

I never considered the Lords of Kobol as being Beings of Light, admittedly. I can see how it could work, assuming that they spiritually evolve after death. After all, I assume there are eight more tombs for Kobol's Lords. Those must have been old Lords, assuming those pyramids and the people capable of building them, as well as space craft, had been around a while.

[Athene]

I too believed that the beings on the ship of lights were humans and then ascended to a higher life form through stages. Less of a corporeal being and more of an energy form when the final stage occurred and able to heal themselves quickly and move objects with their minds and read thoughts, etc. The one's with good thoughts would have a bright white aura around them and those with evil intentions having a dark black aura.

[Captain Chirri]

Remember on B5 when Delenn took on human characteristics by going into a chrysalis of some kind? Maybe the BOL did the same thing over BILLIONS of years worth of evolution.

I for one liked Richard's books, although I don't have the complete set.

I did however, feel cheated that he left the last one with such a cliffhanger!

It felt like a bit of a cop out on his part. I was looking forward to the Fleet FINALLY meeting up with Earth, or people from there who were exploring on their own. Something that would wrap up all of the plot points, (never mind the plot holes!) all in one nice neat little package.

I think I'm digressing....never mind! Back to the main point.

In his books, Richard stated that the BOL were the Lords of Kobol, and in Resurrection, it turned out that Kobol had been CREATED by them, specifically for their race.

That takes a phenomenal amount of power to do, and I don't see ordinary humans, however advanced technologically doing this.

Who do we go to for permission to write this stuff and mass market it? Someone has to be in charge of it.

[LZaza]

In his books, Richard stated that the BOL were the Lords of Kobol, and in Resurrection, it turned out that Kobol had been CREATED by them, specifically for their race.

That takes a phenomenal amount of power to do, and I don't see ordinary humans, however advanced technologically doing this.


When I heard Richard killed off Starbuck and then stole his girl, I decided to give his books a pass. :errr:

Suffice it to say, I wouldn't consider them canon. ;)

Yes, if the Lords of Kobol created a planet, it would take either omnipotent power, or amazing technology the likes of which we never saw in BSG. However, never did I get the idea in TOS that the Lords were any kind of advanced being, rather that they were leaders of Kobol. Or that they created their planet.

Concordance defines "LORDS OF KOBOL-- Rulers of ancient Kobol, who have assumed the status of religious figures." Again, contradicting Hatch's storyline, in my opinion.

Guess it's one of those canon vs creativity topics. Lots of speculation, that's for certain.

[BST]

Interesting topic, to say the least. :)

As far as canon, my interpretation is that canon is that which was aired on television (i.e., not the telemovies).

My understanding of the Beings of Light, Iblis, Angels, and Satan are intertwined with the central figure being God.

As the story is told, both the Colonials as well as the inhabitants of Earth, sprung from a mother race which inhabitated the planet, Kobol. They would have had a common belief system and set of values. They would have had a religious belief system which may have been the same for all the various peoples or there may have been multiple religions, as there are on Earth, today.

At any rate, there would have been numerous similarities amongst the peoples that made up what later became the 13 tribes of Kobol. Much of that belief system would have survived the early centuries following the Exodus from Kobol. In my opinion, a greater amount of the original Kobollian standards would have remained intact throughout the Colonies, as opposed to on Earth simply due to greater opportunities for reinforcement of those beliefs by the sheer number of people from the 12 tribes compared to the number of people in the 13th tribe.

Additionally, the tribes which later made up the Colonies may have actually been able to take physical (and tangible) artifacts from Kobol whereas the 13th tribe may not have been able to do this. (I'd consider that to be conjecture, though, since it was never covered by the show.)

So, where does this leave us?

Well, as I mentioned, above, God is the central figure for the 12 tribes and for the 13th tribe.

I would consider the Beings of Light to be similar to Angels because they represent a level of existence that is rooted in corporeal existence, i.e., flesh and blood like us and like the Colonials. According to canon, the B.O.L. answered Starbuck's question (who are you?) with the phrase, "what you are now, we once were; what we are now, you may become". Similarly, on Earth, angels are thought to have been, at one time, 'flesh and blood' like us.

How one ascends to their level of existence, is not known.


I would consider Iblis and Satan to be the same being. Accoring to show canon, Iblis was once "like us" (a Being of Light) but, chose to use his power for evil and was 'cast out'. According to the Bible, Satan was cast out of Heaven for rebelling against God. In my mind, the person was the same, the casting out was the same event but, it was simply portrayed (or recorded) differently by the Colonials and by the people of Earth.

[Athene]

Very interesting and good points.
I too thought of Iblis like Satan and the beings of light as being Angels.
Remember the scene where we get a glimpse of what he really looks like?
There was definitely a satanic appearance in my opinion.

[Lara]

I got the distinct impression the BoLs got involved because Iblis went too far. There are rules of engagement so to speak (a common theme in good vs evil battle for mens souls mythos) and when there is transgression, the supreme being sends his offsiders in to put it right.

Apollo wasn't suppose to die, it was Sheba who was on the threshold of willingly giving her self over to Iblis. Starbuck's offer to give himself in Apollo's place means his spiritual growth is not irredeemable .

All these things are fairly standard religious themes in the Judaeo Christian canon (and in the others, including the Koran, as Islam is also derived from the same roots as the other people of the book: there is s nice explanation of this on Mt Nebo)

People better read than I could comment on the Mormon themes. Ascended beings figure highly in their beliefs, too.

I liked the introduction of this theme to TOS. It backed up the mystic nature hinted at in many of Adama's actions, without being too obvious (for the storylines of the time)

cheers,
Lara

[Captain Chirri]

Didn't they also say that he had to pay a price of their choosing for what he did to Apollo?

I don't think that has ever been addressed in any of the fics I've read, so how about we brainstorm for a bit?

I think they should have made him do a Fairy Godfather gig for a couple of hundred years/yahrens. You know, find worthy orphans throughout the universe with terrible parents/stepparents and help them out, without expecting them to worship/follow/pledge themselves to him afterward.

Or, to REALLY show him up, actually make him do a life as Cinderella, from birth to death, in the body of a woman, with no memories of his previous life. Being ordered around by her stepmother and two wretched stepsisters.

That'd make him/her appreciate love, hard work and thoughtfulness.

Or is that too intrinsically silly?

[LZaza]

Didn't they also say that he had to pay a price of their choosing for what he did to Apollo?

I don't think that has ever been addressed in any of the fics I've read, so how about we brainstorm for a bit?

I think they should have made him do a Fairy Godfather gig for a couple of hundred years/yahrens. You know, find worthy orphans throughout the universe with terrible parents/stepparents and help them out, without expecting them to worship/follow/pledge themselves to him afterward.

Or, to REALLY show him up, actually make him do a life as Cinderella, from birth to death, in the body of a woman, with no memories of his previous life. Being ordered around by her stepmother and two wretched stepsisters.

That'd make him/her appreciate love, hard work and thoughtfulness.

Or is that too intrinsically silly?

LOL!

I sort of had the idea that they didn't have the "power" over Iblis that they intimated they did. Iblis blew a raspberry, and told them to take their punishment and shove it where the sol-ium doesn't shine. Oops, crossing threads. ;)

[Senmut]

Ah, I like it. Very New Age. Reminiscent of the Celestine Prophecy.



EEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww...........................

[LZaza]

EEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww...........................

Got a slow leak, Sen? Might wanna get that checked.

[Captain Chirri]

Okay, I am going to sound like a complete twit here but: What the heck is the Celestine Prophecy?

[LZaza]

Okay, I am going to sound like a complete twit here but: What the heck is the Celestine Prophecy?

Not at all. It's a book.

"The Celestine Prophecy is a 1993 novel by James Redfield that discusses various psychological and spiritual ideas which are rooted in many ancient Eastern Traditions and New Age Spirituality. The main character of the novel undertakes a journey to find and understand a series of nine spiritual insights on an ancient manuscript in Peru. The book is a first-person narrative of the narrator's spiritual awakening as he goes through a transitional period of his life.
As of May 2005, it had sold over 20 million copies worldwide[1] and had been translated into 34 languages. A film, The Celestine Prophecy based on the book, was released in 2006. Redfield also published two sequels: The Tenth Insight: Holding the Vision and The Secret of Shambhala: In Search of the Eleventh Insight; he is currently working on a fourth book – The Twelfth Insight."

[Captain Chirri]

Thank you. Now I understand.

There was always something that bugged me about that episode, come to think of it.

The question of why the other pilots were taken was never really answered and I always wondered why they did it?

Was it to protect them from Iblis' influence? Was it to secretly place info in their heads pertaining to Earth?

Just why did Baltar rendevous with the Galactica in the first place if he knew that the first thing they'd do was stick him on the Prison Barge?

And why did Iblis want to seduce Sheba of all people?

[CBSG4ever]

Sorry for coming late to this thread. I've been reading with some interest the comments and speculation regarding the Beings of Light and have noticed something. No one has mentioned the other encounter the Colonials had with the BoL in the series.

In the episode "Experiment in Terra", Apollo is brought aboard the BoL "ship" (for lack of a better term) and is introduced to John. John states that Apollo must do his best to stop a war on Terra.
Apollo asks John why he cannot intervene. John states that he couldn't expect Apollo to understand physical and material laws that transcend him by many generations. The simple truth was he could not be seen by the people of Terra outside the environment of this ship. He has no physical body as he (Apollo) knows it.
Apollo looks at John and says "What do you call that?"
John replies, "A reflection of intelligence, my spirit if you will."

Something else. Apollo asks that if they are so advanced, why do they (BoL) care what happens to the people on Terra. John states "Let us say that what happens to the people on Terra can effect us as well as you and your people. I'm afraid we're only in a position to advise."

One has to wonder if the "reflection of intelligence" or "spirit" is as a result of the beings "passing" or was something they evolved into over a great span of time (example: B5)?
The other exchange indicates they cannot directly interfere (which we suspected), but can perhaps be effected by external events. I wonder how changing those events in the "land of the living" could or would effect the BoL? Would a negative change give Iblis more power against the BoL?

Just a bit more info & questions to bring to the table. Very interesting thread here. :salute:

[Lara]

I remember Iblis was going to have to answer for his transgression, but I don't know I'd trust him around children LOL!!!

I seem to remember the Apollo's part in Expt in Terra was originally going to be Starbuck (which makes sense to me) and would fit with Starbuck being a development project.

Cheers,
Lara

[LZaza]

One has to wonder if the "reflection of intelligence" or "spirit" is as a result of the beings "passing" or was something they evolved into over a great span of time (example: B5)?
The other exchange indicates they cannot directly interfere (which we suspected), but can perhaps be effected by external events. I wonder how changing those events in the "land of the living" could or would effect the BoL? Would a negative change give Iblis more power against the BoL?

:

Again, I think it was purposely nebulous. One size fits all. Those who are inclined towards "angels in heaven" are satisfied, as are those who are looking for an alternate.

And yes, though they could apparently not directly interfere, they could certainly manipulate. The difference being barely discernible, from my pov. So while they had a certain guideline they followed, they also had found an apparent "loophole" which they were more than willing to exercise.

I like the theory on negative change giving Iblis more power. I can almost envision him feeding on the corruptness and negativity. Nice visual, that:devil:.

[Senmut]

Thank you. Now I understand.

There was always something that bugged me about that episode, come to think of it.

The question of why the other pilots were taken was never really answered and I always wondered why they did it?

Was it to protect them from Iblis' influence? Was it to secretly place info in their heads pertaining to Earth?

Just why did Baltar rendevous with the Galactica in the first place if he knew that the first thing they'd do was stick him on the Prison Barge?

And why did Iblis want to seduce Sheba of all people?


My take was that they were flying into the region where the battle took place that resulted in Iblis' ship being destroyed. I doubt the Vipers could have weathered that. The SOL dudes essentially had compassion on a bunch of primitives, then realized that the Fleet was heading right into the area.
As to Baltar, his mind was totally under someone else's influence, by the time he told Lucifer he was going to Adama. Also, let us never forget that Baltar was a malignant narcissist. Deep down inside was the abiding and eternal belief that Baltar was always right. The whole universe revolves around Baltar. So, a little nudge from Iblis might be all it took to get him to go to Adama. After all, he's BALTAR!!!! Right?????!

[LZaza]

My take was that they were flying into the rgion where the battle took place that resulted in Iblis' ship being destroyed. I doubt the Vipers could have weathered that. The SOL dudes essentially had compassion on a bunch of primitives, then realized that the Fleet was heading right into the area.
As to Baltar, his mind was totally under someone else's influence, by the time he told Lucifer he was going to Adama. Also, let us never forget that Baltar was a malignant narcissist. Deep down inside was the abiding and eternal belief that Baltar was always right. The whole universe revolves around Baltar. So, a little nudge from Iblis might be all it took to get him to go to Adama. After all, he's BALTAR!!!! Right?????!

Funny, I always had the impression that Iblis' ship, or the one he'd tried to commandeer, had crashed a long time ago. It looked like an old wreck to me. No particular reason, I suppose. Just thought so. Interesting take, Sen.

I thought taking the initial Vipers was just a plot device that hadn't been very well thought out. "We must introduce an element of power and danger, so we'll start by taking the patrol." I guess my BSG scanner would interpret that as the SOL Beings wanting to take a closer look at our heroes. Stick them in those recliner chairs and poke and prod them a bit. After all, if they felt the need to restrain Starbuck later on, they must not have had total power over him. Actually, that scene was kind of weird, now that I think of it. What were they afraid Starbuck would do?:blink:

I have a different take on Baltar. Baltar was acting out of fear. I believe him when he said that he went there of his own free will. Then again, I tend to believe that the decisions we make are our own, and no one else is to blame for them. He thought that this new force could overcome both Cylons and Colonials, and that surely Adama would see that as well, and decide to band together with him. Iblis didn't force Baltar to go there, he only knew that Baltar's fear and desperation would drive him there. Iblis [I]understands[I] Baltar, he doesn't control him.

[Senmut]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......................maybe.
But as I said, Baltar is a malignant narcissist. That he could go to Adama, and be believed, even after betraying billions, proves he is totally mental. Iblis wouldn't need to "control", as in 100% total brain implants, but Baltar long ago gave himself over to evil. Iblis already has certain priviledges, as it were.
As to the wreck of Iblis' ship...Tigh spoke of the scanners picking up an explosion of some sort. The area around the crash site was still covered in ash when they got there. An old, overgrown wreck would have been a dead giveaway, when Iblis said he'd survived the destruction of his ship. After all, how long had he been there, if the "radion field" was still strong?

[LZaza]

I didn't think the wreck was "old and overgrown", just not very recent. I had the feeling he'd been there a while. And the "radion field" was nonexistent, as it turned out. Starbuck, Apollo and Sheba merely believed Iblis when he first warned them about it.

I didn't recall the explosion that Tigh mentioned. That memory of yours is amazing, Sen. So if there was nothing to indicate a recent crash, other than the wreck itself (ie. no traces of radion), there's a bit of a contradiction it seems. How surprising! ;)

[Senmut]

Yes, but then Iblis has made a career of lying. Just enough truth to make it seem likely.

[LZaza]

Yes, the most convincing lies have an element of truth. And Iblis' confidence, of course, helped.

[Senmut]

Well, confidence is a given. After all, he's even more of a narcissist than Baltar. ;)

[Jubal]

Beings of Light.... a sorority of "good guys" of both an advanced race, and those that they find worthy to join them.

Apparently their medical technology is advanced enough to undue some effects of dying and death, as we saw with Apollo.

I got the impression that their reality was dimensionally shifted away from regular reality. That they had to bring people over, and even then, images had to be given to represent their forms in ways visitors would understand.

I never got the impression that they "created" humanity, so God is kinda out of the question to me with the BoL, but the "Lords of Kobal" is a possibility as either ancestors that could have become the BoL, or inducted into the race of the BoL at some point.

The fact that Starbuck in the Galactica 1980 series was intended to become one of the BoL would lend credence that other worthy people could become part of the BoL. Apparently to be added, as mentioned before in this thread, a test is given. Apollo passed this test, but was brought back to regular life. Starbuck passes that test, and is implied that he is taken up with the BoL.

If the BoL are comprised of members that were formerly living humans, it is possible that their interest in the colonials and Terra to be that of interest to that similar to family or relatives.

Ibilis is apparently someone once inducted into the sorority of the BoL who has decided to pursue other objectives.

But as a race they are impressive, advanced, but not so different from other alien races that the Colonies must have faced. Luckily their intensions seem to be in the Colony's better interest.

[Senmut]

I didn't think the wreck was "old and overgrown", just not very recent. I had the feeling he'd been there a while. And the "radion field" was nonexistent, as it turned out. Starbuck, Apollo and Sheba merely believed Iblis when he first warned them about it.

I didn't recall the explosion that Tigh mentioned. That memory of yours is amazing, Sen. So if there was nothing to indicate a recent crash, other than the wreck itself (ie. no traces of radion), there's a bit of a contradiction it seems. How surprising! ;)

It made sense, from their perspective, that there might be considerable radion from the crash. But given that Iblis & Co. are very different sorts of beings, their ships might use a totally different form of propulsion. Or the destruction of his ship might have been a lure, to draw the Colonials in.
Iblis' mind is like wheels withing wheels within wheels.

[Jubal]

You know, I always wanted to see what Apollo would not let Sheba see... in the wreckage that is. :)