Galactica's Vipers

[Qeutzal]

Has anyone ever thought of how the Galactica replenishes its fighters? after a battle with the cylons, the Galactica will lose several Vipers. Does she build them herself or are they built on another ship in the fleet.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Why is this in the News section?

Moved to the Galactica discussion area.

[Griffworks]

Has anyone ever thought of how the Galactica replenishes its fighters? after a battle with the cylons, the Galactica will lose several Vipers. Does she build them herself or are they built on another ship in the fleet.
I figure that several of those ships together created all the parts needed to make Vipers or shuttles or landrams or replacement pieces/parts for other ships. All they'd need is the raw materials and the trained personnel. Celestra was an electronics industrial ship, so there's the electronic components for at least replacement parts.

[WarMachine]

I have to sign on behind Griffworks, with the addendum that as some have suggested, the Gal might have been carrying "spare" Vipers, in addition to the "67...25 of our own" that they picked up after Cimtar. Any 'spares' would likely not have been flyable due to being down for maintenance.

That said, as far as Season 1 goes, most of the post-Cimtar losses are sustained at Carillon and Kobol; until LL, I don't think the Gal loses more that 5 Vipers, total. After LL, a large part of the Peg's Silver Spar Squadron comes over to the Gal, and the numbers become unworkable, as we don't know what those numbers were.

That's a good point, BTW, on the Celestra; in addition to the mining, livestock and Agro ships, there are likely several other "pure industry" ships in the RTFF.....

[Lara]

I have a vaugue memory of a foundry ship being mentioned at one point. If they had salvage vehicles they could bring debris, or even crashed ships back for reprocessing/ rebuilds.

Later versions might be simpler (and probably less safe)

Of course diminishing resources would have been the major threat on a long journey, especially without Trek style replication abilities (altho I seem to remember replicataors getting a mention in one of the Thurston books..), and speaking of Trek it was something I found unsatisfactory about Voyager: it didn't matter how much they got the ship shot up or dented, it always looked pristine ...unless it was a important plot point that something was broken or in short supply like the recent ep about the nueral net gel packs and the alien cheese microbes...

Even if the Galactica was only looking after her own crew, at some point even her vast stores would be depleted .

Cheers,
Lara

[peter noble]

This is the foundry ship.

http://www.cylon.org/images/bg/foundry01web.jpg

[Griffworks]

Yessir, also called "Flattop". I've also heard the ship name "Haephestus" attributed to it, tho haven't been able to confirm this.

[Lara]

I also recall it being called the Haephastus.

This would fit since Haephastus was the greek god of fire/ furnaces and blacksmithing

Cheers,
Lara

[Qeutzal]

Since battlestar galactica lasted one year, we got to see only one kind of :viper: . I believe there were different versions of the viper but never got to see them. I am pretty sure that the Galactica can carry more fighters. Maybe that is why the fleet was destroyed, most of the squadrens were left behind and all the battlestars were not carrying a full complement of vipers. As big as the Galactica is, I believe she can carry more than just RED and BLUE squadren. I believe she can carry at least six to eight squadrens.

what does every body think?

[Darrell Lawrence]

Actually, we got to see 3 versions of Vipers in the show-

The main Viper shown every ep.

The 6th Millenium Viper *and* the spruced up "probe" Viper, both from the ep "The Long Patrol".

[WarMachine]

Since battlestar galactica lasted one year, we got to see only one kind of :viper: . I believe there were different versions of the viper but never got to see them. I am pretty sure that the Galactica can carry more fighters. Maybe that is why the fleet was destroyed, most of the squadrens were left behind and all the battlestars were not carrying a full complement of vipers. As big as the Galactica is, I believe she can carry more than just RED and BLUE squadren. I believe she can carry at least six to eight squadrens.

what does every body think?

Well, based on this work: http://ravensbranch.allen.com/galacticasize.html I think that the Gal likely carries around 60-90 Vipers total; along with the shuttles, there just isn't that much space, in there...

[Qeutzal]

True, Starbuck's viper in "The Long Patrol" was a sooped up version of the viper but still the same fighter, with its weapons removed and the C.O.R.A. computer inserted. I am talking like the one i saw, the cobra series, similar to the viper but with four engins. Maybe an intercepter, a fighter- bomber or a bomber version.

[Griffworks]

I also recall it being called the Haephastus.

This would fit since Haephastus was the greek god of fire/ furnaces and blacksmithing
Yeah, I knew that about the Greek pantheon connection. I suspect that's likely from a fan source, tho. Regardless, I like the name. :D



Well, based on this work: http://ravensbranch.allen.com/galacticasize.html I think that the Gal likely carries around 60-90 Vipers total; along with the shuttles, there just isn't that much space, in there...
Actually, there's plenty of space in each Flight Pod on either the Old or the New Galactica. Each Flight Pod could easily hold the same internal area as close to two of our modern day US Navy nuclear aircraft carriers (CVN's) - which can carry upwards of 120 aircraft and have a standard crew of close to 5,000 for that configuration. Even if you accept the 4,130 ft length for the TOS Galactica, there's still plenty of room in those Flight Pods for as many as 100 in each, plus half a dozen or so shuttles. That'd give a total of at least 200 fighters and a dozen or so shuttles.

[rjandron]

I seem to recall the Foundry Ship being named Hephaestus in Richard Hatch's Armageddon.

[WarMachine]

...Actually, there's plenty of space in each Flight Pod on either the Old or the New Galactica. Each Flight Pod could easily hold the same internal area as close to two of our modern day US Navy nuclear aircraft carriers (CVN's) - which can carry upwards of 120 aircraft and have a standard crew of close to 5,000 for that configuration. Even if you accept the 4,130 ft length for the TOS Galactica, there's still plenty of room in those Flight Pods for as many as 100 in each, plus half a dozen or so shuttles. That'd give a total of at least 200 fighters and a dozen or so shuttles.

Ah, but the CVNs don't have to worry about life support and keeping an atmosphere in, either.

Based on sixteen launch tubes in each pod, and the long landing deck, and the need for space for parking and maintenance for at minimum 12 shuttlecraft, you don't have a lot of left-over space...I'm allowing for 32 Vipers per pod, along with 6 shuttles; they can likely stash some extra Viper-frames in nooks and crannies, and spread others throughout the Fleet, but I think that c.100 Vipers after LL is the upper end of their capacity.....

[Griffworks]

I don't think that life support requirements would be a problem in the pods, nor do I feel that they would limit themselves to just 64 Vipers. I would imagine that ships as advanced as Galactica wouldn't have the same bulky life support requirements that modern day astronauts do.

And again, each flight pod is pretty close to being twice as long as a CVN, with what looks to me to be probably close to three times the internal area of one CVN. The Flight Pods are thicker than a CVN as well - and a CVN holds quite a bit more than 32 aircraft. Plenty of room in there for as many as 100 Vipers per Flight Pod.

[Senmut]

This is the foundry ship.

http://www.cylon.org/images/bg/foundry01web.jpg


Do we have dimensions on this ship? My thinking is that it can probably dock with the Galactica, using the recessed areas near the bow.

[Qeutzal]

I also think that the Galactica can hold more :viper: than people think. In my own crude way I have made an estimate of how many she can carry. Here it goes. Given the number of 16 launch tubes in each landing bay and if you have a viper in each tube, you have begining number of 32 (1 sq). Then add another 32 (2sq) on stand by for emediate launch which brings the total to 64 on the flight deck.
Then there are the facilities down below, which should have enough space for 64 more(sq 3 & 4) which brings the total to 128 fighters. At any given time vipers must have routine maitenance so add another 32 (5 sq). And to complete the total, add the last 32 (6 sq), not on board, but on patrol or in war games which gives the grand total of 6 squadrens or 192 vipers in all.

[peter noble]

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6205/bay39vl.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bay39vl.jpg)

[Griffworks]

Kewel picture! Is that from the old unofficial blueprint set? Know where that set my be available besides eBay?

I think that proves that point that it's obvious that they can hold more than 32 Vipers per Flight Pod, considering I just counted 66 in that pic.

[WarMachine]

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6205/bay39vl.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bay39vl.jpg)

Hi Peter,

I like that pic! Where did it come from, and where's the legend? If I counted correctly, there is space for about 66 Vipers, c.6-10 shuttles, plus a Landram parking/staging area on the main flight deck level; times 2, that's about 120 Vipers per Battlestar, with c.20 shuttles.....

Never let it be said that I am infallible; that said, are we talking about what's on-screen, or what's a possible maximum? On-screen, I don't think the Gal had more than 100 Vipers as an absolute maximum following LL/FiS...not from capacity/space, but from loss/attrition.

In re the 'lower deck', if that is being used as a work/parts-storage space, you just might be able to squeeze in a total of c.120 Vipers per pod, with a capability of lauching batches of 15-16 at a time(I really need to see that legend!).

On the other side, don't forget that the Viper's fuel storage has to go somewhere....

[Griffworks]

Don't forget that those elevators that go down. There's gotta be even more storage space below, even if it's maintenance bays. Plus, there's only one Viper in a launch bay in the above pic. Maybe the others are on patrol...? :D

[Griffworks]

Do we have dimensions on this ship? My thinking is that it can probably dock with the Galactica, using the recessed areas near the bow.

Please, nobody beat me up, but according to the official TNS BSG site, the Flattop has the following dimensions:

L: 715’/ 217.93m W: 285’ / 86.87m H: 245’ / 74.68m

These seem to be consistant w/the visuals from TOS. The folks at Zoic Studios - who are almost all big TOS fans, BTW! - were shooting for as accurate to visuals as they could get for their CGI models for TNS based upon TOS footage. It looks right to me, based upon TOS Screencaps I've taken myself, as I'd love to scratchbuild this ship - along w/the other ships from both TOS and TNS - and have done some research in that regard. The only thing approaching official stat's that we've got are from what the folks at Zoic Studios did for TNS and that's what I've got for my official measurements on various ships. I believe that one or two Zoic folks had access to a couple of the TOS Studio Models and did their best to base measurements off of those. Otherwise, if you discount the TNS website info, we're left w/guesswork - or fan speculation. Two of these Flattops are w/the TNS RTF, in case anybody cares - one appears to be blue and the other yellow.

[spcglider]

there was a very iinteresting piece of fanfic from waaaaay back. I think it was originally printed in What You Fancy by Clean Slate Press. It talked about how the fleet was running low on proper repair parts for the vipers and that they were making do with ersatz replacements. Evidently they decide that there are physical control rods that run the length of the fuselage and in a particularly heart-wrenching scene, one of the warriors (I think it's Apollo) gets speared through the chest by one of these failed rods and has a most spectacular and drawn-out death scene.

Go figure.

-G

[peter noble]

WarMachine,

The landing bay blueprint is party of a set available from http://www.kennedyshipyards.com/

I had to join two separate scans together to post it. Even though it's speculative, I think it gives a good indication of how big the bay is, espescially when you consider the Big G is one nautical mile long.

[spcglider]

Umm...how big is a nautical mile, Peter?

When I was younger, I worked in the IDS tower in downtown Minneapolis. Its a great big slab of a building. Based on the (perhaps erroneous) information that the galactica was 5000 feet long, I roughly figured that, volume-wise, one could fit FOUR IDS towers with room to spare in ONE of the Galactica outrigger pods.

That's BIG.

And when you consider that a Viper is 39 feet long, that leaves LOTS of room for launch rails, landing platforms, repair bays, elevators, shuttle and landram storage, spares bins, and gease bots.

-G

[peter noble]

Umm...how big is a nautical mile, Peter?

6,080 feet sir.

Best,

Peter

[Griffworks]

Thanks to a generous deal from Bluesquad2001, I just picked up the Kennedy Shipayrds TOS & TNS battlestar print sets, as well as the Universal Pictures blueprint set. The latter set is... disappointing... to say the least. I was expecting blueprints of Galactica in there and all that's included is what appear to be set drawings. However, it was a great deal, so I ain't really complainin'!

The two sets from Kennedy Shipyards are nice, but the TOS set is somewhat disappointing as I just realized that the landing bays aren't accurate to what we've seen on-screen. For starters, the immediate landing area looks nothing like what we see on the show, as well as the launch tube areas are lacking the "garage doors" behind the Vipers! Still, it's excellent for giving you a good idea of just how much space those landing bays/flight pods have in them. There are other areas that I don't agree with, but like all fan-works like this I can take them w/o being overly critical. They're still nice sets, IMNSHO.

Many thanks to Bluesquad2001 for the excellent deal on these! :salute:

Anyhow, just wanted to mention that. :D

[Qeutzal]

Even though we only saw the :viper: , the Galactica surely had more than one type of fighter in her arsenal. There had to be some type of intercepter, a heavy fighter, a fighter-bomber or bomber. Look at Star Wars, you see the X wing, Y wing, A wing and all the variations of the Tie fighter.

[Griffworks]

I could see them needing a heavy bomber, but the standard Viper seems to do everything they need in the way of interception, recon and fighter-bomber type duties. Why go with a bunch of different fighter designs that might not share component systems when you can easily just use one all-around workhorse design for the bulk of your needs?

[WarMachine]

Even though we only saw the :viper: , the Galactica surely had more than one type of fighter in her arsenal. There had to be some type of intercepter, a heavy fighter, a fighter-bomber or bomber. Look at Star Wars, you see the X wing, Y wing, A wing and all the variations of the Tie fighter.

Why? The trend in all militaries is to standardize to as few designs as possible. For instance, in the 1960's and later, in the 80's, there were serious calls for the USAF to standardize first the F4 Phantom, and later the F15 Eagle, eliminating all other platforms smaller than bombers/tankers.

In the 90's, the USN started moving towards this end, eliminating the A6 Intruder for everything except electronic warfare and 'Wild weasel' interdiction(a move, incidentally, I strongly disagree with :/: ). The replacement? The F18 Hornet -- which has now been seriously proposed to replace the F14 :rotf:

The other thing to avoid is making very different societies into carbon copies of Earth analogs. Just because the US developed a winning strategy with a kalidoscopic array of weapons and vehicles(very few of which share spare parts -- trust me, I know :( ) doesn't mean that someone else will follow the same design path.

Next on the list is spare parts: different designs usually require a completely different set of spares; this is a major headache to a military that only operates in part of one planet -- as a logistician myself, I would never, EVER try to take the current US (or any other Western) military formation[s] into a major off-world campaign...it's a logistical impossibility, as the system is now constructed.

The only reason to adopt other frames is "political pork": "The companies in my area(who employ my constituants) build 'X' -- the military needs to support that buy buying some each year...".....How different would it be if the DoD replied: "We'll give company 'X' a license to build frame 'Y', our standard [whatever]...if they want to enter a new design, we have a competition coming up in [?] years....."

[Griffworks]

You're a Supply Troop, too? :)

[WarMachine]

You're a Supply Troop, too? :)

Lurking in a box somewhere is my Golden Box With Toe-In Boot Attachment :devil: :D Ever see "Heartbreak Ridge"? The opening shots were filmed at our paraloft at Camp Pendleton, CA.

Just remember: "Without Supply -- ya DIE!" ;)

[Griffworks]

Kewel. I'm a Zoomie, in case the location didn't give that away. :D

Guess you're a Marine at JTC Ft Worth? (at least, I think that's the name of the place, right?)

Stationed here at Little Rock AFB, just a couple hours up the road from ya'll. Been working w/C-130's here for over four years now and have worked Flight Line maintenance prior, having been stationed at Holloman AFB, NM and working in the 9th FS for 3 1/2 years. Been on five deployments with aircraft (and looking my sixth in the eye) and have a really good idea of how much of a pain it can be to lug all those aircraft parts around.

The USAF version of your moto is "You can't fly without Supply!"

[WarMachine]

Kewel. I'm a Zoomie, in case the location didn't give that away. :D

<snip>

The USAF version of your moto is "You can't fly without Supply!"

Niiice :salute: *nods*.....Nah -- I got out in '90, medicaled for knee and back injuries. OTOH, I do live c.10miles from Carswell's back gate..... ;)

[Griffworks]

Are they still calling it Carswell? I thought it was called something else now. Or is that just a locals thing? I tried to get stationed there with my first assignment. My thinking was that it was close enough to home to drive to on a three-day weekend - my folks still live in Hot Springs, AR, about a four hour drive from Dallas - but since they were within one to two years of closing the base down they weren't "taking any" new airmen. So, I got assigned to Holloman AFB - just outside of Alamogordo, New Mexico - for 9 years. It wasn't so bad, really. Hey, I met my wife while assigned there, so it was very tolerable if only for that. :D



And to bring this back around to the subject at hand....

After some additional thinking, I can see where a few specialized aircraft might be required to do missions that a Viper wouldn't be able to. However, the only two I can still think of are that of bomber and some sort of ELINT/EW. I'd think some minor modifications could make a Viper in to a "Wild Weasel" type configuration, keeping a lot of "aircraft" parts to a more standardized level. The USAF does that on occasion and seems to be doing it more and more, at least whereever practical. For example, there are some few components on our C-130's that are used on other USAF aircraft, as well as a variety of engine parts used on P-3 Orions - which uses the same type of engines as a C-130, just a modified block as they're mounted upside-down on P-3's. The F-117A originally used a variety of "off the shelf" parts from other aircraft, tho has had some systems modified specifically for it. However, the ejection seat was a slightly modified ACES II and some of the avionics systems were still off the shelf when I was working w/them.

So, I don't see why you couldn't do some basic mods to a Viper, possibly even with just some EW "add-on's" to get a "Wild Weasel". You could likely use some of those same systems on an ELINT/EW and heavy bomber space frame, too.

[WarMachine]

Are they still calling it Carswell? I thought it was called something else now. Or is that just a locals thing? I tried to get stationed there with my first assignment. My thinking was that it was close enough to home to drive to on a three-day weekend - my folks still live in Hot Springs, AR, about a four hour drive from Dallas - but since they were within one to two years of closing the base down they weren't "taking any" new airmen. So, I got assigned to Holloman AFB - just outside of Alamogordo, New Mexico - for 9 years. It wasn't so bad, really. Hey, I met my wife while assigned there, so it was very tolerable if only for that. :D

Yeah, they can't decide between "JTF" and "JRB", but it's still Carswell....

And to bring this back around to the subject at hand....

After some additional thinking, I can see where a few specialized aircraft might be required to do missions that a Viper wouldn't be able to. However, the only two I can still think of are that of bomber and some sort of ELINT/EW. I'd think some minor modifications could make a Viper in to a "Wild Weasel" type configuration, keeping a lot of "aircraft" parts to a more standardized level. The USAF does that on occasion and seems to be doing it more and more, at least whereever practical. For example, there are some few components on our C-130's that are used on other USAF aircraft, as well as a variety of engine parts used on P-3 Orions - which uses the same type of engines as a C-130, just a modified block as they're mounted upside-down on P-3's. The F-117A originally used a variety of "off the shelf" parts from other aircraft, tho has had some systems modified specifically for it. However, the ejection seat was a slightly modified ACES II and some of the avionics systems were still off the shelf when I was working w/them.

So, I don't see why you couldn't do some basic mods to a Viper, possibly even with just some EW "add-on's" to get a "Wild Weasel". You could likely use some of those same systems on an ELINT/EW and heavy bomber space frame, too.

That's my thinking, but I doubt they'd use a heavy bomber-type frame. I think it far more likely that they'd either deploy missiles remotely(an old tactic from "Trillion Credit Squadron"), or tow them into place with shuttles. If they need "ortillery"(orbital fire support), the Battlestars are more than capable of nailing a ground target.

Also, heavy bombers require a certian mindset, one that the Colonies may not possess.

ELINT/EW, now -- totally different story: We know that the Cylons are EW-capable, and it stands to reason that the Colonials have the same capability. I would also think that a model exists that includes some "WW" targeting systems, but not much more than that.

[TwoBrainedCylon]

The opening shots were filmed at our paraloft at Camp Pendleton, CA.

I spent a hell of a lot of time at that place (marine brat before I defied convention and went in the AF). Haven't been there since the mid-80s. Used to spend endless summers on the beach and first learned how to really talk to women there.

How much has it gown up these days? I recall it being built up in a couple of areas but having a lot of sparse land all around. Given the growth of the coast, I wonder what's happenned to it.

Right after Jaws was filmed I did have the unusual experience of seeing a boat come back in with a 15 foot great white slung across the bow that they'd caught 1.5 miles offshore. They pulled up there in the bay by the fake lighthouse and showed it off for the TV cameras.

That's also where I saw Star Wars.

Ahhhh ... good memories.


Sandy

[WarMachine]

I spent a hell of a lot of time at that place (marine brat before I defied convention and went in the AF). Haven't been there since the mid-80s. Used to spend endless summers on the beach and first learned how to really talk to women there.

How much has it gown up these days? I recall it being built up in a couple of areas but having a lot of sparse land all around. Given the growth of the coast, I wonder what's happenned to it.

Right after Jaws was filmed I did have the unusual experience of seeing a boat come back in with a 15 foot great white slung across the bow that they'd caught 1.5 miles offshore. They pulled up there in the bay by the fake lighthouse and showed it off for the TV cameras.

That's also where I saw Star Wars.

Ahhhh ... good memories.

Sandy

:LOL: At the "Star Theater" on Hill Street? :rotf: Great Ghu!

I haven't been back since '96, but it hasn't changed much, although the locals are still crying over the WW2 ordinance that keeps turing up in new developments around the Camp's perimeter -- can't imagine it has anything to do with the impact ranges from that war... :/:

[Bacho]

I stated in another thread that the galactica is essentially a carrier, and with the exception of missles, there seems to be no long range heavy weapons mounted on the ship.

She is all engines and launch bays. I suspect that the pylons to the launch bays have the equivalant of elevators to move ships to and from the bays themselves. If not, the ship has a lot of wasted space or requires a extremely large crew to maintain it.

Now, in at least one episode of the original series, there were references to another type of ship other than the viper. I suspect that the viper is more of an interceptor/escort fighter than anything.

Since the series shows the colonists fighting strictly a defensive war, the use of strike craft would be limited.

[Qeutzal]

Eventhough Galactica was never fully detailed during the original show, the Galactica is more than just a carrier. The Galactica is part carrier, part battleship, drednaught, destroyer, missile platform, etc. etc..

In the case of her being only a defensive is totally not true, she has both offensive and defencive capabilities. The only reason you see the Galactica in a defensive position during the show is because that is the roll she needed to take in order to defend the last survivers of the colonies.

[spcglider]

We have to give the show the fudge factors of a) being written by non-scientists and non-military personnel, b) being created in the 1970's when the general public was far less educated about military matters, c) only having lasted one season... which dis-allowed the creators to show us more of the "universe".

If the show had continued on, we most surely would have seen more indications of the Colonial military machine and just how much more beyond Vipers and Battlestars and Shuttles their budget would have allowed them.

But the thought that the Colonies had been at war for 1000 yahren could indicate a turn in either direction. After that long, perhaps they would have developed a whole slew of different military craft that had mission-specific construction OR they would have managed to refine their military equipment to such a point that Vipers and Battlestars and Shuttles were all they needed to fight against an enemy that only had Base Ships and Raiders and Tankers.

For the sake of OUR fun, the latter is horrifically limiting. And so I prefer to subscribe to the former! Its just more fun than the other option.

Either way, that notion of a people who have known absolutely NOTHING but war longer than any of them have been alive is a curious one. Wouldn't almost their ENTIRE economy be based upon supporting the war effort? Wouldn't Peace cause imminent economic collapse? Wouldnt Peace put the majority of their populace out of work? They must not have anything akin to military contractors in the colonies because if they did, the armisitice would never even have been a consideration.

The Cylons are robots. All they need to do is keep building their military and they will eventually overwhelm the colonies by sheer force. The Imperius Leader really only needs to know the algorhythms for "Cylon Empire Tycoon" or "Sim Cylon Empire" or "Cylon Warcraft" to make his victory assured. That means that the colonials would have to match that growth in one fashion or another... by superior quality of military OR soldier for soldier/ship for ship in numbers.

Another potential problem to the suggestion of mutiple attack-craft designs is the shape of the launch tubes. They really look designed to launch a ship in the specific configuration of a Viper. The Sixth Millennium Viper has a flat bottom... it wouldn't fit down the launch tube like a modern Viper would. I'd hate to imagine trying to force a Buck Rogers Thunderfighter down there...

But maybe all the attack craft vary only slightly from the front elevation view of a Viper? That's an awfully limiting concept to proceed from.

Frankly, I say let your imagination run wild. Why not? Its just more fun and that's what the hobby is about, yes? Go ahead and use modern military reference to confirm or deny your creative whims. Or just make stuff up... that's fun too. Either way, I'd like to see all of it.

-Gordon

[Bacho]

Gordon, I hadnt given much thought of the 1000 years of war.

So, essentially, the colonial economy is strictly on a wartime footing....... The whole lifestyle is geared to war.

Okay, the Imperious Leader uses his "Sim Empire" algorhythms so the colonials have to match soldier for soldier to the cylons.....

Perhaps we should be discussing the colonial birth rate and what the major off duty activity was? Unless the Colonials bred like rabbits, had a high rate of multiple births, there aint no way they gonna come up to the task of meeting soldier for soldier.

As far as the launch tube design, considering that the 'wings' of a viper have no use in space, it is concievable that at launch, any attack craft would have the same triangular cross section, deployings after launch, like the cruise missle deployment from a B1 or B52.

[Qeutzal]

I personally can not believe that the colonial navy can wage war with only one type of fighter. There has to be other types of :viper: in there arsenal. Sure the original Viper is a great multi-purpose fighter/intercepter & a formidable fighter in space, but what about planetside.

I can see a class of viper similar to that of an A-10 worthog tank hunter. Imagine hundreds of thousands of Cylons comming your way :wtf: you wonder if you are going to die and all of a suddenly, you see a viper straefing them; your chances of surviving have just increased. :D

Getting back to the subject, the colonial military must have different series of fighters: a wildweasal type for electronic warfare, a fighter-bomber for bombing key cylon targets and as mentioned before an A-10 worthog tank hunter type for straefing cylon on the ground. Add also some type of medium to heavy bombers to the arsenal for spacific missions.

To say that the :viper: is all you need to keep the cylons at bay does not sound realistic to me.

[WarMachine]

Hi All!

I just got around to reading the updates here, so I'll cover the last couple of responses here in one post.

Gordon: In re the "limiting" factor, it depends on what timeframe you're talking about. Pre-Cimtar, it's likely that virtually anything goes; if 1000 yahren is anywhere near 1000 years, you'll have ships laying around for a long time.

Post-Cimtar, you have the Gal, whatever she was carrying or recovered, and possibly two other, smaller, warships(per the novelisation).


Bacho: Now, in at least one episode of the original series, there were references to another type of ship other than the viper.

Bacho: Do you have a ref for that? What ep?


Quetzal and Bacho: Elsewhere on the board, I'm the minority opinion on multiple ship/Viper types, in that I think it's perfectly reaosnable for there to be a single hi-performace frame with multiple equipment pkgs, as that models military trends we see on Earth: during long spells of peace, mission-specific craft get built for every little role...then a war happens, casualties mount, and mission-specific craft and pilots are unable to transition into other roles.

In modern parlance, the USN maintains a very small number of other airframes for certain roles, but has functionally gone to just two primary fighters, the F14 and the F18; the USAF maintains three, the F15, F16 and the A10(the last kicking and screaming, because of doctrinal screwups that stick them with "mudder" jobs), with the Marine Corps using only the F18 and the AV8B Harrier.

The Joint Strike Fighter(JSF) is supposed to replace all of these frames, leaving only the F22, if it ever gets built.

This extends to tanks: USMC/USArmy - M1-series, with the Army still maintaining a very few M551[?] "Sheridan" light tanks for the Airborne; and to helicopters:

USArmy: UH60 Blackhawk-transport, AH64 Apache-attack, UH? Kiowa-scouting, CH47 Chinook - heavy-lift transport;
USMC: UH1N Huey-scouting (being phased out to buy more Cobras), AH1W Cobra-attack, CH46 Sea Knight-transport (scheduled for phase-out when/if the V22 Osprey comes online), CH53 Sea Stallion- heavy-lift transport;
USN: UH60N SeaHawk - scouting, transport, ASW;
USAF: CH53 - SAR/SpecOps....

On the Colonial side, running with one frame of Viper and training for different missions does the following things:

*It simplifies and speeds up training - pilots need only be trained to fly two frames(Shuttlecraft and Vipers); this extends to maintenace/flight crews

*It vastly simplifies logistics

*It greatly speeds production

This also extends to capitol ships. There are some missions that don't require a Battlestar(a massive, general-duty combat vessel), so have a destroyer, instead(those two other non-Gator warships had to come from somewhere); also, you'd need to transport troops, so a dedicated assault-ship platform is necessary.

We have no figs for Cylon build-times, but they are likely much shorter than Colonial timeframes, and they appear to have a much wider empire to watch over.

So......Why were the Colonials on the defensive? Because they violated Steinbecks Law:

"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense,
The sword is more important than the shield,
And skill is more important than either,
The final weapon is the brain.
All else is supplemental."

-- John Steinbeck

[Bacho]

Agreed, if the time frame is equal, you would have ships laying around everywhere.

However, when you look at the Viper, you see zero additional hardpoints. This indicates there is no way to mount any other weapons on the craft.

As far as other classes besides Battlestars, I would have to agree.

I am trying to find the episode that refers to another class of fighter, however, my library of video is in five different boxes.