Ever Wonder How a Viper shoots Cylons?

[Damocles]

Have you ever wondered what those bolts of light coming out of your friendly neighborhood Viper pursuing the Cylon Raider were?

Have a look at the hydrogen/boron rocket.

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3c2.html

Colliding beam pB11 hydrogen boron rocket under development.

http://luke.eng.uci.edu/ahcheung/

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/cbfrsps.jpg

And those rockets depend on self organizing magnetic toroids

http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0205026

http://www.llnl.gov/str/September05/Hill.html

Now if you put one of those self-organizing plasma toroids into a standard linear accelerator after it is generated inside your hydrogen boron rocket?

You would get either what looks like a blue or red bolt of light that packed the kinetic punch of a howitzer shell.

[WarMachine]

Have you ever wondered what those bolts of light coming out of your friendly neighborhood Viper pursuing the Cylon Raider were?

Have a look at the hydrogen/boron rocket.

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3c2.html

Colliding beam pB11 hydrogen boron rocket under development.

http://luke.eng.uci.edu/ahcheung/

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/cbfrsps.jpg

And those rockets depend on self organizing magnetic toroids

http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0205026

http://www.llnl.gov/str/September05/Hill.html

Now if you put one of those self-organizing plasma toroids into a standard linear accelerator after it is generated inside your hydrogen boron rocket?

You would get either what looks like a blue or red bolt of light that packed the kinetic punch of a howitzer shell.

Niiiice...very nice.... :devil:

OK: who has a loose million or three? :D

[Tabitha]

Well, I read it... Im still wondering.. do we have a science to blond translator around here?

tabbi

[WarMachine]

Well, I read it... Im still wondering.. do we have a science to blond translator around here?

tabbi

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :D

Basically, they're talking about super-heating a gas until it starts a mini-fusion reaction(kind of a caged micro-H-bomb) on its own(its called "plasma"), then squirting that plasma down a magnetically-driven barrel -- know how a mag-lev "bullet train" works? Same thing, but in a cylinder, rather than a rail...... ;)

[Tabitha]

*Blink* *Blink* Uhhhh... yea.. Im with ya....

tabbi

[WarMachine]

*Blink* *Blink* Uhhhh... yea.. Im with ya....

tabbi

:D

Feel Free to ask.....

[Damocles]

*Blink* *Blink* Uhhhh... yea.. Im with ya....

tabbi

Imagine this.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005M1UG.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

You have a negative charged brass tube(called an anode) sitting like the piece of a bunt cake pan tube that makes the hole in a bunt cake when you bake it.

The outer walls of the cake pan are made of copper. That is the cathode. You give this a positive charge.

You run a charge of negative electric current through the brass anode.

Into the space where you pour your cake mix, you squirt hydrogen and boron gas.

Now you see the top of bunt cake pan(the part that faces you when you flip the pan over when you drop the cake onto the serving platter? That is where you have a powerful microwave oven that cooks the heck out of your boron hydrogen gas cake mix raising it to about two billion degress in about one thousandth of a second.

Okay, why did we send that negative electric current into the anode(the brass part of the cake pan?)

That turned the anode into a n electro-magnetically charged cylinder(read bar magnet). That hydrogen/boron cake mix we just microwaved is positively charged plasma now. Funny thing happens to plasma when you pass a radio beam vertically across a magnetic field the plasma is suspended in.(the magnetic field from the brass anode has field lines that are shaping the toroid for us.) It organizes itself into twisting strands like stroodle and eventually adopts a stranded toroid shape which it self maintains around your anode( a ring like a fat wedding band around the brass center tube in your Cake pan) while the positive charge it has repels it from that cathode. Since the current you sent down the anode was a travelling current(a pulse) the positive charged plasma toroid looking like a glowing blue hot bundle of wispy stroodle is dragged by the attracting negative charge from the negative anode and the traction pulls the plasma down the anode and out the open mouth of your bake pan.

(MASER) You use the microwave oven radio beam to keep the plasma from touching and vaporizing the anode.(Light pressure does this in case you wondered what kept the two billion degree cake mix from touching and vaporizing the brass anode doughnut plug in your cake pan.

Oh did I mention the cute trick we played with the copper cathode?(the outside of the cake pan.) We charged that positively so we could strip off the plasma's free electrons on that side and give the plasma a positive charge. Its the return ground for the plasmas' negative charge on the outside*. So that plasma charge is now coupled with the travelling positive current pulse of your cathode which pushes it along as the negative anode charge pulls it along.

All the while that microwave oven is cooking the boron/hydrogen cake mix.

Now the cake mix is fusing(acting like a miniature H bomb) like crazy. We had the foresight to wrap the the rocket motor(that is what your cake pan actually is) with a nice big coil of ytrium wire. When a hot magnetized gas moves through a static stator coil you get this,

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHD_generator

A lot of electricity that we are getting is from all those electrons' kinetic energy that the cathode strips off our anode dragged plasma torus.

It slows down the cake mix by about five percent, but that is no problem, because as soon as the cake(your self sustaining hydrogen/boron toroid) pops out of its pan, it is inside a coil gun.

That is where some of that excess electricity we harvested from our fast moving bundle of plasma stroodle went.(The rest is powering things in the gun like the MASER** to preheat the next batch of cakemix..... but most of the electricirty is going into the Coilgun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun

At its simplest description the coil gun is a long coil of appropiate conductive wire wrapped around a magnetically transparent gun barrel. The coil carries a negative travelling current down its coiled length. This current generates a magnetic field that grabs your self-organized positively charged magnetic torus and spins it while dragging it along the length of the guntube. it uses magnetism to do what we would do with gunpowder to move that plasma bullet. In the process it squeezes your stroodle together and braids it so that it looks like a worm gear.

http://www.zakgear.com/Worm.html

Thats the purple thing in the image above.

Just before our tightly braided bundle of plasma stroodle leaves the muzzle we inject a positive charge into our "bullet" so that repulsive charges don't unwrap what we worked so hard to twist together magnetically. This is called charge neutralization, or a neutralized charge plasma.

Finally, when it comes out the muzzle of the gun, it will appear to Starbuck as either a red or blue bolt of light depending on the amount of boron you put in your cake mix. It will start unwrapping almost immediately as it leaves the coil gun's magnetic influence, but it will travel a long way before it uncoils and it will pack a wallop when it hits something-say maybe ten to fifteen seconds at 5000 to 60, 000 meters per second until it hits a Cylon Raider?

And that is the recipe for a Viper plasma toroid gun-often called a turbo-laser because of the presumed MASER**(microwave amplification by stimulated emission of radiation; a type of LASER) precursor that the Colonials use to preheat the boron/hydrogen cake mix. That MASER is your microwave oven to cook your hydrogen boron cake mix.

I hope I explained it clearly.

[WarMachine]

Imagine this.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005M1UG.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

You have a negative charged brass tube(called an anode) sitting like the piece of a bunt cake pan tube that makes the hole in a bunt cake when you bake it.

<biiiiiig snip>

I hope I explained it clearly.

Damocles --- You totally rock. :salute: :thumbsup:

[Tabitha]

I may never bake a bunt cake again.....

So what you made there is a rail gun that shoots a blob of nothing, at whatever speed you choose based on the field strength of the coils on your barrel. So assuming you draw the energy off the plasma bin at a rate equal to its build up, you could super charge the barrel and fire faster with no loss to the strength of the plasma thingy? The draw back being that you couldnt fire as often...
So why not just use something like a high end isotope, maybe Californium, as the projectile, infuse it with some hard negutive ions, send that puppy down the barrel? Its so unstable that it would become nothing but energy by the time it leaves the barrel, a form of hard energy? That way you can save the energy used in the plasma field conversion?

Do I actually sound like I understand this stuff or what?

tabbi

[WarMachine]

I may never bake a bunt cake again.....

So what you made there is a rail gun that shoots a blob of nothing, at whatever speed you choose based on the field strength of the coils on your barrel. So assuming you draw the energy off the plasma bin at a rate equal to its build up, you could super charge the barrel and fire faster with no loss to the strength of the plasma thingy? The draw back being that you couldnt fire as often...
So why not just use something like a high end isotope, maybe Californium, as the projectile, infuse it with some hard negutive ions, send that puppy down the barrel? Its so unstable that it would become nothing but energy by the time it leaves the barrel, a form of hard energy? That way you can save the energy used in the plasma field conversion?

Do I actually sound like I understand this stuff or what?

tabbi

That sounds better than anything I've heard yet on GINO ;) ...or most other attempts at military sci-fi.

The problem with using a solid slug, even if it converts to plasma on the way down through the field, is that you just added a loading mechanism that you really don't need....The first rule of all military equipment is to make it as simple as you possibly can; anything else starts complicating matters.

[zankoku]

Do I actually sound like I understand this stuff or what?

I think we have a ringer, folks.

Wonder if my brother the nuclear physicist could build me a laser. He did work on the super collider.<g>

Jim

[Tabitha]

He works on SR60? Kewlies, can he drop in an extra lane around Val Vista? It blocks up there every day when Im driving out to my gf's house.

Oh wait, you meant a different super collider...

tabbi

[zankoku]

LOL. Yeah the Superstition doesn't count. He was on the Super Collider project in Waxahatcha Texas when they shut it down. Before that was at Los Alamos after being at Lawrence Radiation Lab.

As for teh 60, ADOT will be doing that according to a guy from ADOT who rides teh bus every morning on the way to work.

Jim

[Damocles]

I may never bake a bunt cake again.....

So what you made there is a rail gun that shoots a blob of nothing, at whatever speed you choose based on the field strength of the coils on your barrel. So assuming you draw the energy off the plasma bin at a rate equal to its build up, you could super charge the barrel and fire faster with no loss to the strength of the plasma thingy? The draw back being that you couldnt fire as often...
So why not just use something like a high end isotope, maybe Californium, as the projectile, infuse it with some hard negutive ions, send that puppy down the barrel? Its so unstable that it would become nothing but energy by the time it leaves the barrel, a form of hard energy? That way you can save the energy used in the plasma field conversion?

Do I actually sound like I understand this stuff or what?

tabbi

To clarify some points of why you use a plasma coil gun instead of a simple mass driver(since I don't have to use the bunt cake analogy anymore) you use a plasma bullet to accomplish three things;

1. You can extract electricity from it(the hydrogen/boron plasma you just turned into carbon 12, helium, ionized deuterium hydrogen isotope, and free electrons) to power the gun(MHD generator) so that it is self-powered after you load the first shot(machine gun principle). You cannot extract electricity from a californium slug-even if it was semi molten as it passed through the MHD segment of a mass driver.

2. It doesn't matter if the slug is plasma or solid at velocities greater than 10,000 meters per second as to kinetic damage. That Cylon is still going to eat roughly 1-2x10^6+ joules per square centimeter when the "stroodle" hits him.

3. The plasma can be loaded with charge potential as well as kinetic energy. A graze miss by the plasma's outer magnetic field on that Cylon raider will short the Cylon pilots out and kill them even if the bolt misses by a dozen meters..... (Something about magnetic fields and swiss watches.... An effect to which Humans, because they are bags of water; if they are grounded, are IMMUNE.)

ADDENDUM; While you can use a railgun to move a californium slug, that slug has to make contact with the rails to complete the circuit across the rails. At that current loading, the like charge in the two rails bends them apart at the muzzle.

Additionally the heat loading wears away the rails to the point that at some point the slug will jam in the track. The railgun bursts. This cannot happen with a plasma coilgun. The worst that happens there is that the stroodle goes cold and you burn out a section of coil that you can rewrap when your Viper returns to the Galactica with a burned out coilgun.

At these heat loadings the plasma is a lot more forgiving of a mechanical fault than a slug.

It is also simpler to make this type of gun(the plasma coilgun) when you get all the fluid/field geometries worked out. The only moving part is the hydrogen/boron cake mix which you squirt into the cake pan.

[Tabitha]

Seems right to me, so I accept that, but Im a simplistic girl, I would think instead the Gal crew would be considering needle guns. I mean, if you can pack 150,000 little 3.4mm self propelled rounds into a large magazine and make Pin Cushions outta Raiders, I cant imagine that would work out too well for the pilots in those Raiders. Something about having several thousand needles go through thier brains just seems to me to be a way to put them permanently out of commission.
Ah but then, we arnt talking about how a Viper shoots a Cylon... so we will stick with you method, makes sense.. sorta, in a "I dont like being this geeky" kinda way ahahhahaha

tabbi

[Damocles]

Seems right to me, so I accept that, but Im a simplistic girl, I would think instead the Gal crew would be considering needle guns. I mean, if you can pack 150,000 little 3.4mm self propelled rounds into a large magazine and make Pin Cushions outta Raiders, I cant imagine that would work out too well for the pilots in those Raiders. Something about having several thousand needles go through thier brains just seems to me to be a way to put them permanently out of commission.
Ah but then, we arnt talking about how a Viper shoots a Cylon... so we will stick with you method, makes sense.. sorta, in a "I dont like being this geeky" kinda way ahahhahaha

tabbi

I like that idea.

Now what would it take to get a 0.1 kilogram slug to 200,000 meters per second? (That gives us 2x10^9 joules impact on the Cylon.)

To give us bullet propellant assuming 100% matter/energy conversion to attain that acceleration?

2.0x10^9 joules = 2.225x10^2 kilograms

That is about a pound of ultima propulsa to accelerate 3.5 ounces worth of needle.

[Tabitha]

Well, if I was to design the needle gun, it would have at least three barrels, to aid in heat budgeting, also it would have barrels longer than the burn time of the needles. The ends of the barrels, say the last two feet or so would bleed off into an outer shell, like a silencer, to avoid the flash that would give away the position of the fighter. Also I would have the darts coated in a paint or isotope that maybe only shows up on certain spectrums when lit by laser. That way, wherever the fighter is firing, the gun would have a coaxial laser illuminating that area as well, so the pilot would see the rounds as they came near. That would give the effect of tracers, without the line back to the firing position effect that a steady burn would give.
Ive got ideas as well on how to design a stealth fighter based on the technology they have already. It would make sense to have a stealth fighter for atmospheric use, for planetary defense, and with engine redesign it would work in space as well, giving the colonials a great support craft for the Viper. It would not have the range, or the armor, or even the missle abilities of the Viper, which, being a Starhound class ship has both for fighter/attack craft abilities. Instead the stealth would be more a true aerospace superiority fighter. It is a throw back to the old gunfighters. Maybe one hard point could be made for a dorsial mounted stealth missle or fuel pod, but that would be about it, maybe the fuel pod with buddy pack ability to allow a squadron of them to attack, at least HALF the stealths would have the range, the rest would act as fuel carriers for the trip to and from the target.

tabbi

[Damocles]

:salute:

Most of what you wrote is correct in describing a possible Viper.

I would suggest, though, since this fighter should have exo-atmospheric ability;

-when the fighter operates in a vacuum you use a static finned radiator with coolant circulating through it, rather than spin the barrels of its guns. There is only one way to leak heat into a vacuum and that is by radiation from a hot surface. The more surface you have radiating the more effective the cooling. That would go a long way toward explaining why Vipers continue to have fins in space when they are for all practical purposes rockets.

-you chose a propellant(the ultima propulsa, that would be electromagnetic(photon), and strong nuclear influence(quark bonding) unaffected matter/energy-{dark matter/dark energy}) that you cannot see glowing. The Colonials have this in theory if they use TYLIUM. If they have a pure dark energy rocket; it would be for all practical purposes, a reactionless thruster. (That is very complicated to explain. It involves "negative gravity" and something called vectored spatial inflation-stuff which I don't understand, but which I'm assured is very real.)

-I might forgo the illuminating laser if the Cylon has a UV or IR detector. A polarized laser flare on the "bullet"; though, is a very good idea for a tracer. The Cylon shouldn't see much if any side band leakage at the speeds the slugs are moving as long as you are head on or in chase.

[Tabitha]

When it comes to dark matter or negutive matter, I only understand what Ive read from A Brief History Of Time. Im a Hawking fan. Theres not many guys I would wanna get into, but he is one of them. Hes so cute, and funny, and smart. All of those are turn ons for me. (Guys just keep reading, dont go back....) So my understanding of physics is limited. Ive been interested in both the String theory, which unites the theory of the big and small, its the unifiying theory in my opinion. I also have been facinated with the work Testla was doing. I listen to Art bell/George Norri and it facinates me how he was so close to building a time machine, albeit limited in its abilities, as well as things to alter the laws of physics on small scales. Im not really a geekette, but things that do stuff that breaks the rules we live by just makes me get all goose pimply...

tabbi

[Titon]

Ahhhhhh, can your repeat the stuff that you said about all the things????

:wtf:

[warhammerdriver]

I'll stick to my PPCs (Particle Projection Cannons) (the two muzzles on the arms of my avvy)

Hmmmmmmmm, charged particles being channelled and acclerated down a magnetically charged conduit----isn't that basically what you're talking about?

[Damocles]

I'll stick to my PPCs (Particle Projection Cannons) (the two muzzles on the arms of my avvy)

Hmmmmmmmm, charged particles being channelled and acclerated down a magnetically charged conduit----isn't that basically what you're talking about?

No. What I'm describing are highly-charged miniature plasma H-bombs being accelerated; when I describe a hydrogen/boron plasma coil gun spitting out that plasma stroodle.
---------------------------------------------

On another note. How to fry a Cylon Centurion?

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t27927.html

I've an idea that Colonial warrior laser pistols might actually be laser induced plasma channel lightning guns. It would be the perfect anti-Cylon weapon.

Simple itself. You use a laser to ionize a ground path through the air(You would not see the laser, so you would have to aim by eye using iron sights) between the gun and the Centurion, then you discharge a beam of either ions or electrons down the ground path.

It would look like bar lightning and the poor Cylon on the receiving end would get a current charge loading about on the order of 20,000 volts at 10-100 amps.

Not much as far as lightning bolts go, but it would slag a car's electrical system, even if the car were on Bridgestones(TM).

Please note that the article above mentioned varieties of plasma channel weapons that are non-lethal. That is only because we have not been able to build charge capacitors large enough to carry the charges required to make these weapons work at the lethal scales we see in explosives.

For example; if you could take the electricity you use in your refrigerator to run it for a week; and devise a means to deliver it in a ten of a second to a spot at which you aimed, it would deliver the same kinetic(explosive) energy as a howitzer shell.

Classic Galactica technology makes sense and holds up rather well don't you think?

[Tabitha]

Think they could make my Jeep go for a week on one tank of gas?

tabbi

[zankoku]

Tabbi, sure they can make your Jeep go a week on one tank. Do what I do. Don't drive<g>

Now a question. What is your major?

Jim

[WarMachine]

On another note. How to fry a Cylon Centurion?

I've an idea that Colonial warrior laser pistols might actually be laser induced plasma channel lightning guns. It would be the perfect anti-Cylon weapon.

<snip>

Classic Galactica technology makes sense and holds up rather well don't you think?

Hmmmm.....Brings up a good point, especially for "cross-over" fans: What effect would current(i.e., early-21st Century Earth) projectile weapons have on Cylons?

In [Lost Warrior? I'm at work, right now :( ] the locals are afraid of Red Eye because they only have "neumos" - which look for all the world like crappy air rifles. Even so, one of them manages to dent Red Eye's helmet.

Suppose this: You are a sniper, armed with a 7.62x51 PSG-1 sniper rifle. You have a clean shot at a Cylon Centurion c.400yrds downrange....

BANG!

The bullet strikes the Centurion high on the left side of the chest...

What happens? I know full well what happens to humans -- What happens to the Cylon? :...:

[Tabitha]

Major is a mix of Medical Transcribing, and Literature, Im bouncing back and forth, last year I wanted to be a writer, but then I just cant let go of my promise to someone I lost, to save every life I can...

tabbi

[rjandron]

Suppose this: You are a sniper, armed with a 7.62x51 PSG-1 sniper rifle. You have a clean shot at a Cylon Centurion c.400yrds downrange....

BANG!

The bullet strikes the Centurion high on the left side of the chest...

What happens? I know full well what happens to humans -- What happens to the Cylon? :...:

Well, it ain't going to help him.

Assuming that you have an FMJ round, the round itself starts to shed its jacket and fragment on penetrating the outer armour of the Cylon. Add in the spalling from the Cylon's armour itself, and you have a bunch of tiny high-velocity fragments bouncing around inside a very sophisticated piece of hardware.

The question is whether any of these fragments will cause damage to key components of the Cylon. Actuators for limbs and mobility are probably too robust to be damaged by anything but the bullet itself, but the control circuitry could be a lot easier to damage.

Think Mac Mini being shot at by a low-velocity .22LR, and you might have an interesting model for what would happen to your Cylon shot by the HK.

The key, of course, is penetrating the armoured skin first. In the episode you cited, we saw a bunch of dents where the air rifles of the settlers were unable to penetrate Redeye's armour.

[Damocles]

Well, it ain't going to help him.

Assuming that you have an FMJ round, the round itself starts to shed its jacket and fragment on penetrating the outer armour of the Cylon. Add in the spalling from the Cylon's armour itself, and you have a bunch of tiny high-velocity fragments bouncing around inside a very sophisticated piece of hardware.

The question is whether any of these fragments will cause damage to key components of the Cylon. Actuators for limbs and mobility are probably too robust to be damaged by anything but the bullet itself, but the control circuitry could be a lot easier to damage.

Think Mac Mini being shot at by a low-velocity .22LR, and you might have an interesting model for what would happen to your Cylon shot by the HK.

The key, of course, is penetrating the armoured skin first. In the episode you cited, we saw a bunch of dents where the air rifles of the settlers were unable to penetrate Redeye's armour.


Well lets look at that round shall we?

7.62x51 NATO (typical firing 10-12g bullet at 750-850 m/s, and developes around 750-1,000 joules at impact within effective range)

That will(when using an armor piercing bullet) pierce about 8mm of of RHA steel

So your Cylon is in trouble.

http://www.wallacecollection.org/i_s/conservation/analysis/investigate_armour.htm

A human using a couched lance on horseback at the gallop generates about 850-1000 joules at the point of impact.

No wonder those steel faced inch thick wooden shields knights wielded were used to deflect lance points!

The modern battle rifle bullet delivers comparable energy with far higher penetration capability.

The average suit of armor weighed about 30 kilograms at 1mm thickness.

If Mister Cylon wore a 5mm human sized skin(about what you'd find on a 1957 Chevy, he'd be one hefty 150 kilograms of Centurion-not including the innards which for convenience we'll extrapolate weighs as much as his armor does. We've seen Colonials move Cylon Centurions on screen. Extrapolation-Mister Cylon weighs as much as a medieval knight.

He might have 5x strength steel rolled homogenous armor for skin and might wear a Nissan Sentra overcoat 1mm as a result, but if he was dented by a high powered air rifle pellet fire(1.5 grams at 600 mps, then he's going to be swiss cheesed with entry and exit holes by anything armor-piercing above pistol caliber ammunition size and velocity.)

I wonder if Cylons wear Interceptor IV armor?

[bsg1fan1975]

I think I have the ultimate answer to the question of how to Vipers shoot Cylons.

The answer is: Very Carefully! :rotf: :LOL:

[Tabitha]

Why have such a large round? 3.4 mm is big enough to stabilize itself, yet the amount of energy is put on such a tiny needle point, its penetration is going to be remarkable. Its sort of what they did with the FN P-90, and the pistol that uses the same round. (See any episode of SG1, its the gun they carry)

Granted the anti aircraft round I imagine is more like 3.4X130mm Slender, but extreemly long, moving hypersonic by the time it leaves the barrel. Im pretty good at sewing, but I guarantee, you wont have to be to put a stitch in a Cylon with that kind of gun. Especially if your sewing at about a 1000 rpm or faster.

tabbi

just call me Rambo.. feels kinda sexy being all macho girly!

[Damocles]

Why have such a large round? 3.4 mm is big enough to stabilize itself, yet the amount of energy is put on such a tiny needle point, its penetration is going to be remarkable. Its sort of what they did with the FN P-90, and the pistol that uses the same round. (See any episode of SG1, its the gun they carry)

Granted the anti aircraft round I imagine is more like 3.4X130mm Slender, but extreemly long, moving hypersonic by the time it leaves the barrel. Im pretty good at sewing, but I guarantee, you wont have to be to put a stitch in a Cylon with that kind of gun. Especially if your sewing at about a 1000 rpm or faster.

tabbi

just call me Rambo.. feels kinda sexy being all macho girly!

Its a very good description of a hypersonic round.

To give others an idea of what you describe:

http://poongsandefense.com/product01.htm

Now that is for AA shells moving at around 1000-1500 mps. When you discuss AA shells travelling at 200,000 mps or 0.06% the speed of light? That is a lot of propellant!

[rjandron]

Why have such a large round? 3.4 mm is big enough to stabilize itself, yet the amount of energy is put on such a tiny needle point, its penetration is going to be remarkable. Its sort of what they did with the FN P-90, and the pistol that uses the same round. (See any episode of SG1, its the gun they carry)

Granted the anti aircraft round I imagine is more like 3.4X130mm Slender, but extreemly long, moving hypersonic by the time it leaves the barrel. Im pretty good at sewing, but I guarantee, you wont have to be to put a stitch in a Cylon with that kind of gun. Especially if your sewing at about a 1000 rpm or faster.

tabbi

just call me Rambo.. feels kinda sexy being all macho girly!

Ammunition design is always a tradeoff between greater damage and greater penetration. Since munitions engineers like dealing in numbers, they like to put as much cross-sectional energy into a round as possible--thereby giving a higher degree of penetration. So, they either up the propellant, or reduce the bullet cross-section--which is exactly what the engineers at FN did in designing the FiveseveN round.

However, the degree of damage suffered by a target depends on what vital subsystems are compromised by having high-velocity metal pass through them. This is where you want to increase the cross-section--to increase the chance that when your projectile hits the target, it will be traversing through vital subsystems and not through empty space within the target. Of course, you increase the cross-section too much, and you lose armour penetration.

The US Army in its SPIW and ACR programs back in the 1970s and 1980s looked at high-velocity flechettes and while these were touted as being excellent at penetrating body armour and having flat trajectories, their potential for stopping an opponent was minimal, with reports of flechettes simply passing through targets and causing minimal injury. Flechettes which were designed to tumble actually didn't.

This is one reason why the Army's XM-8 program is looking at the 6.8mm round, since reports from Afghanistan and Iraq have cast doubt on the "stopping power" of the 5.56mm NATO fired from the short-barrelled M4 carbine.

In order to make up for the smaller holes that you're punching in the target using your type of system, you have to punch a lot more holes. This is where the Metalstorm system from Australia comes in, with its ridiculously high rate of fire.

[WarMachine]

In order to make up for the smaller holes that you're punching in the target using your type of system, you have to punch a lot more holes. This is where the Metalstorm system from Australia comes in, with its ridiculously high rate of fire.

http://www.metalstorm.com

Estimated RoF for c.rifle-sized projectiles:


:devil: 1,000,000 rounds per minute :devil:

[Damocles]

http://www.metalstorm.com

Estimated RoF for c.rifle-sized projectiles:


:devil: 1,000,000 rounds per minute :devil:

There are serious company overclaims and technical problems with Metal Storm.

These all involve three issues; electrical primer ignition out of sequence of the bullet propellant, heat expansion of the barrel allowing seal failure and propellant blowby in the stacked ammunition in each barrel in the array, and duds- which result in the same common problem. Bullet jam blockage followed by catastrophic barrel burst.

The weapon is also a one use weapon. Once those bullets wear out the hot lands in the rifling, you have a rapid fire automatic paper weight. There is a reason for a cyclic rate of fire of about 600 rpm for machine guns(besides logistics) when we could build single barrel machine guns with four times that cyclic rate with ease. Its called HEAT.

[WarMachine]

There are serious company overclaims and technical problems with Metal Storm.

These all involve three issues; electrical primer ignition out of sequence of the bullet propellant, heat expansion of of the barrel allowing seal failure and propellant blowby in the stacked ammunition in each barrel in the array, and duds- which result in the same common problem. Bullet jam blockage followed by catastrophic barrel burst.

The weapon is also a one use weapon. Once those bullets wear out the hot lands in the rifling, you have a rapid fire automatic paper weight. There is a reason for a cyclic rate of fire of about 600 rpm for machine guns(besides logistics) when we could build single barrel machine guns with four times that cyclic rate with ease. Its called HEAT.

Yep....Didn't mean to imply that it was exactly a proven technology...I certainly would depend on it until a lot more work has been done on it...

But you have to admit that the concept is extremely cool, if only from a strictly sci-fi view.....

[WarMachine]

This is one reason why the Army's XM-8 program is looking at the 6.8mm round, since reports from Afghanistan and Iraq have cast doubt on the "stopping power" of the 5.56mm NATO fired from the short-barrelled M4 carbine.


...One of the not-so-bright moves in the American firearms industry, IMNSHO.

The original AR15 used a 55-grain ("FREEDOM! 55-GRAINS AT A TIME!") .223-caliber projectile pushed down a 20-inch barrel with a very gentle rifling twist of one turn in 14 inches; the under-stablized bullet produced phenominal injuries that were usually lethal.

This, however, was not the goal of the "assault rifle": the goal was to wound, not kill....so, the Army - in its 'brilliance' - increased the rifling twist to 1 turn in 12 inches -- which was just enough to overstabilze the bullet, and send it through the target with only minimal damage.....

...Of course, .223/5.56x45 ain't .308/7.62x51, cross-sectional energy went way down, and the round became much less effective....

...So, the Army - ever helpful - tried to increase bullet length and weight a bit, to 62 grains...Of course, a 1-in-12 twist isn't enoug to stabilize that bullet in flight, so the Army - again in its benevolent wisdom - tightened the rifling to 1-in-7.....

...Then decided that the 1-in-7 rifle(the M16A2) was both too heavy and too long, so they stuck a ridiculous CAR15 collapsible stock on the rifle, and chopped the barrel down to 14 inches.... :wtf: *shakes head*

Oh, well *shrug* - at least it lowered the effective range to that of the M249 SAW, which has always had a 14-in barrel..... :/:

Moral: Never, EVER, allow commitees to design weapons. :errr: :mad:

And in the unlikely event that I should ever be recalled to active duty, I'll politely tell then that I'll supply my own .30-06 ammo for my M1 Garand, thanks.

[BlueSquad2001]

This is all too cool. I'm gonna get my chemist girlfriend a.k.a. (warriorchemist) to check this information out. Since she like to be informed on how (real) something she watches is. :salute: