Faster Than Light Travel In Cbsg, Pt 1

[WarMachine]

FASTER THAN LIGHT TRAVEL IN CBSG
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Hi All,

This is my first post to the board...

Below is a work in progress. It concentrates on on the strategic and tactical effects of what I think CBSG uses as an FTL drive. Interestingly, it is pretty close to the Engines page at the BSG/TM http://www.tecr.com/galactica/ (I originally posted it there under th name DorsaiLeader).

Comments are invited....

Please note: This is not complete; I basically ran out of steam and stalled, which is why I'm posting it here...

Thanks.

WarMachine

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FASTER THAN LIGHT TRAVEL IN THE ORIGINAL BATTLESTAR GALACTICA UNIVERSE

Jump-Line Transits and Naval Combat Doctrine of the Twelve Colonies and the Cylon Empire

by Michael A. Cessna, ©2005

Based on "Battlestar Galactica" created by Glen A. Larson, c.1978, CE; all rights reserved.


This work is supplemental and complimentary to the Battlestar Galactica Technical Manual: www.tecr.com/galactica/en...ngines.htm


INTRODUCTION

In analyzing any science fiction series, the caveat always exists that there will need to be many assumptions made, and that "hard science" cannot be reliably used to predict the physical aspects of that universe. That said, it is still possible to analyze certain aspects of a given universes technology, and how it impacts (or should impact) that universe's storyline. The first question to ask is: how does the Galactica travel faster than light? Answer: In the TV show and novelizations, there are references to 'going to lightspeed', but there is never a very clear description of the process in anything this author is aware of that can be regarded as 'canon'.

It is the contention of this author that FTL systems in the Original Series(C/BSG) are of a 'Tram-Line/Wormhole' nature, and that everything seen in C/BSG supports this view. The purpose of this article will be to both demonstrate the validity of the use of the jump-line drive in C/BSG, and to discuss the ramifications of such a drive in regards to naval/space combat tactics and strategy.

A 'tram-line' FTL drive was described in detail in the book 'The Mote in God's Eye', by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, 1974, ISBN# 0671741926. In sum, it predicates points in a solar system where the fabric of space-time is flexible enough to allow a ship to travel to another star directly linked with that one point. Travel through 'real-space' is by normal reaction thrusters(chemical rockets)...and can take a very long time, relative to the interstellar 'jump', which takes essentially no time at all.

PROOFS OF THE USE OF A TRAM-LINE/CIRCUIT DRIVE IN C/BSG

The first demonstration of this drive we have is the attack on the Colonial Fleet at the Cimtar Moon. This is also our first look at both Cylon and Colonial fleet operations. There is no direct evidence in the TV episode that the Cimtar moon is inside the Colonial home system; in fact, the circumstances would strongly mitigate against it - even if the Cylons were negotiating a real peace treaty, they would not wish to enter the Colonial home system directly, and the Colonials certainly would not want an unknown number of Cylon warships in the heart of their home system. For their attack to work, the Cylons had to lure the bulk of Colonial fleet elements away from the Twelve Colonies' home system, and the presumption is that they chose the Cimtar system to draw the Fleet far enough away from the Colonies that even if one or two Battlestars escaped the ambush - as the Galactica did - they would not arrive in time to affect the main Cylon attack.

The episode opens with Zac trying to talk Starbuck into sitting out what they think will be their last combat patrol before peace is declared. The Colonial fleet is shown variously deployed in either a "line-ahead" or a "line-abreast" pattern, but in both cases, they are deployed along a roughly parallel course, both vertically and horizontally, much like a WW2 bomber aircraft formation. Given that their primary threat appears to be from fighter craft, this is understandable, as most attacks later in the season come from either above or below, and such a formation would minimize "friendly fire" incidents between vessels.

During the afformentioned patrol, a strike group of Cylon Raiders is located as it attempts to pass unobserved through a natural phenomenon. It is further discovered that two empty Cylon tankers are also present. The logical, and apparently true, assumption is that the Cylon fighters refueled at the tankers as they prepared to move on the Colonial Fleet. It is pointed out that Cylon fighters could not operate so far from the Cylon homeworld without a base-ship, and the veteran Warrior Captain Apollo quickly makes the correct assumption that the Cylon fighters refuelled at the tankers, but that their base-ships are elsewhere. Why? How could fighters, unequipped with FTL drives even get to the Cimtar system without a base-ship, and why did the Fleet not detect the base-ships, either entering or leaving?

The answer is that the fighters were not dropped off by base-ship. By 'tucking' themselves in closely with the tankers, the fighters were enveloped in the tankers' spherical jump fields. Since the fighters would need to have their tanks topped off before starting their attack, having them jump in with the tankers makes perfect sense.

Turning to the Colonial side, as the Cylon strike package engages the Colonial Fleet, Commander Adama, receiving the intelligence about the tankers-but-no-baseships immediately notifies the President aboard the Atlantia that he is withdrawing to try and defend the Colonies. This is obviously a 'forlorn hope', as the Galactica's Viper squadrons are already closely engaged with the Cylon strike package, and the Galactica will undoubtedly face several capitol ships with fully-deployed squadrons of Raiders, all without being able to recover its fighter squadrons. In a very short span of time, the Galactica arrives in the Twelve Colonies' home system, and is greeted by the spectacle of a massive Cylon raiding fleet levelling every human Colony; significantly, reference is made to Cylon baseships "...launching against all outer planets". The presumption is that the Galactica has entered the system at a point significantly far from any one Colony that they can render no effective aid, Viper squadrons or no.

With a jump-line FTL drive, this makes perfect sense. Data presumably long-known to the Cylons would reveal the exact rotational period of every planet in the Colonial system; as this is at least a binary - and possibly a trinary - system, it would be extremely large in size, as expressed in AU's (astrnomical units). Even if the Galactica made a high-speed run to a jump point, and successfully jumped into the Colonial System, it would have been too late. If the Cylons selected Cimtar as the place to lure the Colonial Fleet into an ambush, it was because no Colonial-system planetary body was close enough to the adjoining jump-point at the time of the attack that could have had aid rendered to it by any surviving Colonial forces. This would give the Cylons the potential for a complete "knock-out" blow, destroying the Colonies' military and industrial powerbases at a single stroke. Coupled with the apparent sabotage to Colonial system defenses conducted by Baltar's agents, this sealed the Colonies' fate.

[WarMachine]

Faster Than Light Travel In Cbsg, Pt 2

[cont.]

An indeterminate amount of time after the Galactica arrives in-system, Adama and Apollo land near their former home on Caprica; although conjectural, it would appear that at least some Cylon ground units have arrived on-planet at this point. It is highly likely that the Cylons, with limited fleet and ground force units immediately available (they did have an Empire to garrison, after all), were unable to land a full-scale invasion force with the initial assault; the follow-on, "exploitation and extermination" troops would mop up the remaining humans following delivery via baseships working in relays. This delay gives the Galactica time to assemble the "rag-tag, fugitive fleet".

To backtrack a bit, while Adama and Apollo are on Caprica, the surviving Vipers of the fleet rendesvous with the Galactica. Again, how? Unless specially modified(rendering them unarmed), Vipers are incapable of FTL flight on their own. In the novelization, the Vipers refuel at an "ambush screened" fueling station. This is where we run into a continuity issue, as the Vipers still cannot make FTL on their own...on the other hand, it is highly likely that they did the same thing as the Cylons, i.e. hitched a ride with a jump-capable ship. It really doesn't matter, functionally, whether the fueling station was jump-capable or whether the Vipers hitched a ride on the Cylon tankers or a passing Colonial freighter; the fact is, the Vipers had to have assistance in reaching the Colonies, and they likely did that via a jump-point, as they had no Battlestars to ferry them.

Next, we have the Colonial refugee fleet. Several of the ships are known to be incapable of FTL flight on their own. So...how are they moving along? It is physically impossible for the entire fleet to move at sub-light speeds, as everyone would be long-dead before they reached the next system. The answer, again, is the jump-line drive. In a manner similar to the Cylon Raiders and surviving Colonial Vipers at Cimtar, the FTL-incapable ships would 'nestle' in close to FTL-capable ships for the jump, then spread out at the destination system. Because of the physics of the jump drive, ships arriving in the target system would have to plod along under normal-space drives to get to the next jump point, and as was repeatedly demonstrated, most of the refugee fleet was barely able to run its engines, limiting advance rates to the speed of the slowest vessel[s], as the Colonials cannot afford to ruthlessly abandon disabled ships.

Next is the movement of the Colonial refugee fleet to planet Carillon, for rest and refuelling. Carillon was chosen as it was known to have raw Tylium fuel deposits, and the Colonial refugee fleet would be able to use their fuel ships to process the raw ore into fuel. It was also known (or at least assumed) that food could be obtained there. In the deliberations among the new Council of the Twelve, reference was made to the fact that the most popular way to approach Carillon was closed off the fleet, as it "was surely guarded". Captain Apollo's alternative plan was to approach Carillon via the Nova of Madagon - a pathway between two close-together stars. It was pointed out that this way was unguarded because it was mined. Why? Because the most popular (and likely, the safest) route was via a jump-point on the far side of the Carillon system, and it was either guarded within the Carillon system, or more likely, it was guarded on the far side of the jump point, i.e. the next system over (this was likely for political reasons). For this reason, even though there was a small Cylon presence on Carillon itself, when the Colonial fleet suddenly appeared through the nova, it took time for reinforcements to be summoned, and approach from the standard jump-point.

Finally, as the last proof example presented here, is the continued existance of the fleet itself. After the Carillon battle, the Colonial refugee fleet begins a long-running 'stern-chase', where the Cylons are continually hunting the Colonials, but are unable to do more than shadow them at any given time. The Cylons, in fact, are almost never able to gather a credible force to destroy the Galactica and its fleet; even when that fleet approaches a major Cylon regional capitol, there is barely one task force's worth of Raider craft available for defense -- because the rest of the assigned units are hunting Commander Cain's Battlestar Pegasus.

With a more common form of science fiction FTL drive such as a Star Trek-like 'warp drive', a Star Wars 'hyperdrive', or even a Babylon 5 'hyperspace'/'jumpgate' drive, it would be possible to easily trap the Colonial fleet at some point, because all of the aforementioned drives are non-locale-dependant in nature. The easiest way to perceive a tram-line system is to think of it in terms of pre-atmospheric flight Earth: Almost all transoceanic travel had to pass through a series of "choke points" - canals or narrow straits. FTL tram-lines function as 'gateways' that must be opened and closed to allow a ship to pass through the canal/strait.

In this model, seas like the Mediterranean are analogous to star systems: within the system, you can move as quickly are your engines will push you. However, once you come to a jump-point/strait, you must use a special engine/pay a toll to pass through to the next sea/system. As a result, if you are in a system with multiple jump points, an enemy would not only have to know _which_ jump point you traveled through, _and_ what system that point connected to, but they would also have to send a relay ship to notify pursuing fleet elements of your course...and although messages can move at the speed of light, ships take considerably longer. While within charted space, this would present no real difficulties for a pursuer.

However, once into uncharted space, all of the advantages are on the Galactica's side: all it has to do is slip through three or four "nexus" systems (systems with multiple jump-points), and the bulk of the pursuing Cylon fleet will be functionally incapable of catching up. The exception to this rule is the immediately-pursuing forces. However, their ability to maintain pursuit is increasingly limited as they stray farther and farther from their base-territory. Additionally, their ability to summon reinforcements will decrease expotentionally with every multi-point system they pursue the Colonial fleet through.


IMPLICATIONS AND IMPACTS TO TACTICAL AND STRATEGIC OPERATIONS OF A TRAM-LINE DRIVE

Given the assumption of a tram-line/jump-point drive in BSG/TOS, what effect would this have on tactical and strategic operations, and do the televised prorgams reflect these concerns? Strategically speaking, the main concerns are communications and fleet movements.

Communications

Due to the physics of a jump-line system, communication in the absence of FTL radio, while slower, is still extremely fast -- within Charted Space. This is becaus ethe natural inclination would be to construct a "pony express" type of system, where a ship jumps into a system, and transmits a message to a ship at the next jump point, which jumps to the next system in line and repeats the process. As a result, within a certain radius, communications can move at technically-faster-than-light speeds, slowed only by however much time is necessary to jump nd transmit data; the Cylons would have the advantage in this, as their sysems would be cycling at a far faster rate than Colonial systems (which appear to utilize a far higher degree of external, physical intervention; this makes Colonial nets more secure, but slower). On the other hand, moving ships and troops can be time-consuming, and extremely expensive, beyond a certain point: the advantages of the jump drive are offset by the need for real-space fuel, spare parts, and the necessity of constructing bases and repair depots to support ship movements.

Impact On Strategic And Tactical Operations

As a jump-line drive has no use or effect in real-space, away from jump-points, there are no concerns vis direct FTL combat; indeed, such combat is not possible using this FTL system. Ship-to-ship combat would occur at sublight velocities; however, there seems to be a discontinuity in BSG combat scenes, as vessels of all classes rarely seem to enter a deceleration phase. The explanation behind this is that such vessels use some type of inertial compensation/cancellation system. This is not directly realted to FTL tactics, but goes some way to explaining 'SCM' (Space Combat Maneuvering) as seen in the BSG universe. Despite repeated mention of "electronic" and/or "magnetic" shields in the BSG universe, lack of an effective shielding technology on the order of that seen in Star Wars or Star Trek results in small one-to-three-person fighter craft having the ability to severely damage or destroy capital-grade warships, even if they need large numbers to do it. But there are other reasons for the existance of one-man fighters, namely, the need for reconnaissance and pickets. A vessel's sensor suite is only so good; it would need satellite craft (fighters or shuttles) to extend its sensor range.

[peter noble]

Wow.

This makes sense (as much as I understand it).

Presumably once they enter unchharted space they must use some sort of scanners to detect these tram lines.

Is this done by the Vipers that go on deep space recon?

Can you explain what kind of phenomenon the Nova of Madagon could be attributed to in reality?

[Titon]

Good lord that's cool!

Thanks for posting that sir and i look forward to more analogy!

:)

[WarMachine]

Wow.

This makes sense (as much as I understand it).

Presumably once they enter unchharted space they must use some sort of scanners to detect these tram lines.

Is this done by the Vipers that go on deep space recon?

Can you explain what kind of phenomenon the Nova of Madagon could be attributed to in reality?


Thanks. :salute:

From my view, the Galactica and some of the other ships in the fleet (like the mining ship[s]) likely have the ability to scan for new Jump-points; at the same time, as was demonstrated in LPotG, the Viper patrols function as an extension of the Galactica's sensor suite, and so could probably find a new Jump point well before Galactica.

Once they're clear of charted space - probably very soon after LL/FiS - they and the Cylons sunddenly become totally equal; I never got the idea that the Cylons had explored very far out past Gomoray(sp?).

This dovetails nicely with C.O.R.A.: although the novels indicate that a couple of other military vessels survived, I don't recall seeing them. Soooo -- how do you check for an ambush at the destination system? Answer: equip a couple of small (i.e., expendable) ships with Jump drives, and send them through first. This would be a standard naval tactic for all sides with this sort of Drive; if the recon ships come back and reports all clear, you're probably good for at least a head start in that system.

Sticking C.O.R.A. in a Viper, along with a Jump Drive that renders the Viper unarmed? Well, it may have been a hand-built drive, and the Viper - with a good enough pilot - doesn't need to be shooting; the measure of success in a recon mission is to gather information and report back, undetected by the enemy. As any recon-type will tell you, if you fire a shot while snooping, your mission is a failure.

The Nova of Madagon is really nothing more than two stars in extremely close proximity to each other. The "bleed-over" effect is one that we have seen in RL photos of other stars, IIRC.

.......

Well, as My Far Better Looking Half just informed me, I need to get my tail into the kitchen and make breakfast... :D

[peter noble]

The Nova of Madagon is really nothing more than two stars in extremely close proximity to each other. The "bleed-over" effect is one that we have seen in RL photos of other stars, IIRC.

Thanks WarMachine, I've waited 27 years for someone to come up with a logical answer to that question.

[peter noble]

Re the Galactica's Tylium Conversion Drive. Presumably it converts the Tylium into energy that drives the Galactica into the tramline then.

Is Tylium a radioactive ore?

[rjandron]

This is very, very interesting. Thanks for posting it, and I look forward to seeing more.

BSG has not really been given a great deal of technical analysis to explain what we saw onscreen. Given the sophistication of today's audiences, the technical background becomes an invaluable tool for those wanting to tell stories in the BSG setting.

[WarMachine]

Re the Galactica's Tylium Conversion Drive. Presumably it converts the Tylium into energy that drives the Galactica into the tramline then.

Is Tylium a radioactive ore?

I think it would have to be. I know that GINO 2.0 has apparently made reference to specific power outputs for Tylium, I don't have those figs, as I try not to think of GINO 2.0 at all... :rotf: :rolleyes:

The only "classic" ref's I've ever heard in re Tylium are that it is an isotope left over from exploding novae/super novae; I don't know if that's "fanon", or from the books, though.

I am totally speculating on this, but I think that Galactica bombards Tylium with antimatter to generate a massive DC energy flux that is fed into it's Jump drive. As to the various size of other vessels, I think it's fair to speculate that drive size increases expotentially with ship-mass...

The non-gearhead version of that means that the Galactica is so large because it's non-Jump sections are larger than most of the rest of the fleet combined, and as a result, it needs a far larger Jump drive than the other ships.

[WarMachine]

This is very, very interesting. Thanks for posting it, and I look forward to seeing more.

BSG has not really been given a great deal of technical analysis to explain what we saw onscreen. Given the sophistication of today's audiences, the technical background becomes an invaluable tool for those wanting to tell stories in the BSG setting.

Thanks, much! :)

[WarMachine]

Good lord that's cool!

Thanks for posting that sir and i look forward to more analogy!

:)

No problem! ;)

I'm tinkering with notions about the Colonial Merchant Marine and Colonial Fleet stregnths pre-Cimtar, at the moment....

It's nice to have a place to post all the stuff that's been rolling around the noggin for 20-ish years.... :)

[peter noble]

The Nova of Madagon is really nothing more than two stars in extremely close proximity to each other. The "bleed-over" effect is one that we have seen in RL photos of other stars, IIRC.

Like this?

http://www.gemini.edu/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=58

Re Tylium being radioactive. The Ovions mine it without any protective gear and Starbuck and Apollo are able to set it alight with just their blasters. My feeling is that it isn't radioactive.

[WarMachine]

Like this?

http://www.gemini.edu/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=58

Re Tylium being radioactive. The Ovions mine it without any protective gear and Starbuck and Apollo are able to set it alight with just their blasters. My feeling is that it isn't radioactive.

Re the link: Yes, exactly... :thumbsup:

On Tylium: It may not be dangerously radioactive in its natural state, but refining the raw material may involve adding to its atomic structure, much in the same way that we manufacture the trans-uranics like Plutonium and Californium :colada:

[gmd3d]

Wow very informitive . thanks for posting . I think I will have to reread it a few time :)

[Sept17th]

Wow very informitive . thanks for posting . I think I will have to reread it a few time :)
I'm glad you said it first. ;)

If the subject comes up in my fan films I'll know where to look.

[gmd3d]

glad to be first,, I think :) I am going to try and use some of it in my fan fic if WarMachine does not mind

[WarMachine]

glad to be first,, I think :) I am going to try and use some of it in my fan fic if WarMachine does not mind

Thanks, Much! :D Glad to see so many enjoy it.

Feel free to use it in the fan fic; my fiction always sucks - my specialty is "gazette"-type articles and "psudo-real" technical/gearheading/socio-political info...... :salute:

[gmd3d]

My fanfic is the first I have tried and I should get back to it soon.. Doing and learning how to use my 3d program (LIGHTWAVE) Takes a lot of time.. but thank

[Tabitha]

Im not a science major, but I have a friend who is a physics major and she told me once about a thing called the "star bow effect" and how it could have gotten the RTF well on their way to Earth with no propulsion required at all. Of course, from what she said, it was extreemly unlikely they found the natural requirements needed to do something like that, being, two black holes close enough to each other that if one were to go bewteen them, exactly on the event horizons of each, that the gravitational pull would sling the object at increadible speed on a course away from them. Thats about all I know, but since we were sorta talking about FTL, that might have been a solution somehow, I dunno...


tabbi

[gmd3d]

All I know is I should have remained in school longer than I did.. I am getting a headache, Has anyone got painkillers :)

[WarMachine]

Im not a science major, but I have a friend who is a physics major and she told me once about a thing called the "star bow effect" and how it could have gotten the RTF well on their way to Earth with no propulsion required at all. Of course, from what she said, it was extreemly unlikely they found the natural requirements needed to do something like that, being, two black holes close enough to each other that if one were to go bewteen them, exactly on the event horizons of each, that the gravitational pull would sling the object at increadible speed on a course away from them. Thats about all I know, but since we were sorta talking about FTL, that might have been a solution somehow, I dunno...


tabbi

Tabbi,

That's the problem with applying hard science to sci-fi: conventional Einsteinian/Newtonian physics don't allow FTL travel except under the most extreme circumstances. The problem with the 'bow effect' is that you have no way of decelerating; you'll run out of fuel long before you get to where you can stop....not to mention, how do you get to the black holes in the first place? :...:

This is where "handwavium" gets employed in sci-fi writing, by simply saying that 'x' drive is capable of both starting and stoppnig your travel. Until I started applying the jump-line drive to BSG, apparently in concert with the similar "LaGrange Point Drive" of the BSG Tech Manual site, the only plausible drive I had ever heard of for Galactica was the "Albucierre"[sp?] drive.

This involved generating a massive gravity-diplacement wave that the ship would "surf" on. I discounted it for BSG almost immediately because a wave of the strength necessary to move the Ol'Girl would crush the rest of the RTF.

[WarMachine]

I'm glad you said it first. ;)

If the subject comes up in my fan films I'll know where to look.

One of the things about Galactica - which is why "Voyager" was such a direct rip-off - that would have come out in later seasons would have been contact with other advanced alien cultures.

While Galactica could not afford to stop long enough to rebuild their fleet completely, I can totally see them trading tech information for repairs and fuel along them way; it would allow a growing buffer between them and the Cylons, as other systems armed-up with Colonial technology.

The really interesting part would be if that had happend shortly after HoG; if Galactica and company were able to rearm sufficiently, they could turn on their pursuers, and lure a couple of basestars into a large-scale jump-point ambush. That would be a decent finale to the "Cylon Chapter" , as a major defeat would preclude further pursuit, at least until the Cylons evolved new designs, and resumed the hunt.

Of course, there are things worse than the Cylons: just imagine a cross-over where BSG runs into the Alliance from "Firefly".... :(

[3DMaster]

Hmm:

Hyperdimensional physics (ST's subspace physics to have the exact same properties) says there's a hyperdimensional massless eather (subspace). Interestingly, large rotating masses and electro-magnetic fields draws energy out of this subspace at key angles/degrees. Stars and planets would thus generate massive subspace fields, in fact planets would add to the stars subspace generation.

The jump points could then be where subspace fields of different stars intersect - and knowing supspace physics would allow you to understand where jumppoints most likely form, and to which star they go.

Tylium can be mined from planets. One could pose that in very old planets, minerals could be compressed over long periods of time, and if it's in those key angles where supspace energy is being pulled into normal space, those highly compressed minerals could be enfused with it; like a constant conduit to subspace. Destroying this mineral in a chemical reaction would then disrupt it's conduit to subspace and for a moment draw LARGE amounts of energy from it, including a momentary decrease in normal space/time cohesion - which is exactly what one would need to open such a jumppoint. Bash one subspace section against the other, and let them form a harmony and watch jumppoints open.

Anyone like the theory?

[peter noble]

Yes, but what happens if they reverse the polarity of the neutron flow? ;)

[WarMachine]

Hmm:

Hyperdimensional physics (ST's subspace physics to have the exact same properties) says there's a hyperdimensional massless eather (subspace). Interestingly, large rotating masses and electro-magnetic fields draws energy out of this subspace at key angles/degrees. Stars and planets would thus generate massive subspace fields, in fact planets would add to the stars subspace generation.

The jump points could then be where subspace fields of different stars intersect - and knowing supspace physics would allow you to understand where jumppoints most likely form, and to which star they go.

Tylium can be mined from planets. One could pose that in very old planets, minerals could be compressed over long periods of time, and if it's in those key angles where supspace energy is being pulled into normal space, those highly compressed minerals could be enfused with it; like a constant conduit to subspace. Destroying this mineral in a chemical reaction would then disrupt it's conduit to subspace and for a moment draw LARGE amounts of energy from it, including a momentary decrease in normal space/time cohesion - which is exactly what one would need to open such a jumppoint. Bash one subspace section against the other, and let them form a harmony and watch jumppoints open.

Anyone like the theory?

It's pretty in-line both with my thoughts, and with canon. As an aside, the source material I'm drawing my ideas from - The Mote In God's Eye - was described to its authors by the guy who came up with it(Dan Alderson, of JPL), as 'weaknesses in the space-time continum at pointas of equi-potential nuclear flux'... :(

No, I don't pretend to understand that either.

OTOH, your take would nicely explain the bulge on Galactica's underside ;)

[Damocles]

Re the Galactica's Tylium Conversion Drive. Presumably it converts the Tylium into energy that drives the Galactica into the tramline then.

Is Tylium a radioactive ore?

Not likely.

Exotic matter; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exotic_matter

Wormholes; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

Tylium would not be matter as we understand it to work.

We wouldn't even see it.

Instead it would most likely correspond to dark matter;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter

It would possibly act as a microwormhole inflater so that you could enter that "tramline" invented by Larry Nivem and Jerry Pournelle and used in their novel "The Mote in God's Eye".

The inportant thing to note here is that, your Viper patrol is looking for "flat space" with a slightly positive curvature as opposed to our realspace which has a slightly negative curvature topologically speaking.

The Tylium itself is either a negative mass lens for manipulating or is converted into dark energy to morph the topology to your requirement(You add to the summit of the bump in the visualized analogy);

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy

Imagine it to be like you are an ant looking for a bump in the saddle. Once you find the bump, you can see another bump close by and jump to it avoiding the hillsides and valley between the bumps' crests. You use Tylium(pronounced TIE-LEE-UM) to do this.

That explanation(visualization of how it works by analogy) is just(barely plausible)within the realm of real physics.

Hope that helps

[gmd3d]

:/: :/: Remember those headaches :...: :...:


This is intresting stuff .. let see more :salute:

[Tabitha]

Men... you got it all wrong, the bulge under the old girl is from giving birth to the RTF... duh..... its just old age pudge. No biggee, in a few light years it can firm up a bit and with some Oil of Olay, it can be almost gone. No biggee.

Seriously though, I read in Popular Science about a type of propulsion that NASA had considered, it used nuke drives fed with some kind of ion particles that would create more thrust than just a series of nukes. I wish i had kept that issue, it got wet (rained on my Jeep with the top down) and got ruined (with some other mags you guys proabably wouldnt be intersted in). I think it was something to do with helium ion or something because the gas was stable and all until it broke down in the nuke furnace, then it became terribly dynamic.
Anyhow, in theory, the ions were so excited that they gave off some wierd kind of pulsing that they wernt sure about, which is why it never saw the light of day, but they think it may have been the first sign of gravity being thrown off from the furnace. If that was true, then that might be the first gravity drive. Wouldnt that push the Gal faster than light speed, since grativons are faster than light, as gravity takes effect before the light or sound of a singularity effects another? Im not sure, I read the stuff, but honestly, Im usually more interested in Cosmopolitan than Cosmology.

tabbi

[Damocles]

It gets messy from here on in.

If you don't get the wormhole inflation correct you tear a hole in spacetime.

There is something about goofing up spatial inflation symmetry and negative gravitational tides that would rip the poor old "alligator" apart and very much locally DESTROY spacetime leaving nothing in its wake. The universe would rush in and close up on that nothing . The resulting rebound shockwave from that implosion would propagate at the speed of light and would be indistinguishable from a massive quasar if you saw it.

Also the dark matter mass converted to dark energy to inflate a microwormhole to mansize proportions is equal to about one Jovian mass of normal matter.

That is a lot of mass and a lot of energy for a wormhole about a meter in diameter.

[Damocles]

Men... you got it all wrong, the bulge under the old girl is from giving birth to the RTF... duh..... its just old age pudge. No biggee, in a few light years it can firm up a bit and with some Oil of Olay, it can be almost gone. No biggee.

Seriously though, I read in Popular Science about a type of propulsion that NASA had considered, it used nuke drives fed with some kind of ion particles that would create more thrust than just a series of nukes. I wish i had kept that issue, it got wet (rained on my Jeep with the top down) and got ruined (with some other mags you guys proabably wouldnt be intersted in). I think it was something to do with helium ion or something because the gas was stable and all until it broke down in the nuke furnace, then it became terribly dynamic.
Anyhow, in theory, the ions were so excited that they gave off some wierd kind of pulsing that they wernt sure about, which is why it never saw the light of day, but they think it may have been the first sign of gravity being thrown off from the furnace. If that was true, then that might be the first gravity drive. Wouldnt that push the Gal faster than light speed, since grativons are faster than light, as gravity takes effect before the light or sound of a singularity effects another? Im not sure, I read the stuff, but honestly, Im usually more interested in Cosmopolitan than Cosmology.

tabbi

That sounds like a hydrogen boron rocket.

http://www.ibiblio.org/lunar/school/InterStellar/Explorer_Class/Bussard_Fusion_systems.HTML

or VASIMR;

http://www.engin.swarthmore.edu/~tcronin1/VASIMR.htm

[WarMachine]

Not likely.

Exotic matter; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exotic_matter

Wormholes; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

Tylium would not be matter as we understand it to work.

We wouldn't even see it.

Instead it would most likely correspond to dark matter;

<snip>

That explanation(visualization of how it works by analogy) is just(barely plausible)within the realm of real physics.

Hope that helps

Yep....This does no real violence to the Alderson Drive approach(that's the name given to the Niven/Pournelle drive)...I'm more concerned with the strategic and tactical effects, and trying to rationalize what we see on the screen... ;)

[Damocles]

Yes, but what happens if they reverse the polarity of the neutron flow? ;)

You die.

[WarMachine]

That sounds like a hydrogen boron rocket.

http://www.ibiblio.org/lunar/school/InterStellar/Explorer_Class/Bussard_Fusion_systems.HTML

or VASIMR;

http://www.engin.swarthmore.edu/~tcronin1/VASIMR.htm

Bussard: Eeewwwwww :wtf: I never cared for the ram-scoop concept...

I think VASMIR is pretty interesting, though, and a lot more practical than something like NERVA...I have this "thing" about steam rocket exhaust that got excited by pumping it over uranium honeycombs blasting through the local planetary airspace. :eek:

OTOH, I think VASIMR might be a good basis for Viper propulsion... :)

[warhammerdriver]

BSG Tech Manual site,

Is there a link to this site available?

[Damocles]

Is there a link to this site available?

http://www.b5tech.com/

That is the Babylon 5 Tech siite.

Also maintained is this;

http://www.tecr.com/galactica/

which is the companion Battlestar Galactica Technical site.

Note that there is no GINO at the Battlestar Galactica Tech site. This site is strictly classical Galactica.

If you want details about that, you'll have to go elsewhere, as frankly the site administrator feels that the science in GINO is just not credible and won't touch it.

Or you could ask me privately off this site(I respect the CF ban.). I don't think GINO's science is any more valid than it's fiction, either.

[WarMachine]

Anyhow, in theory, the ions were so excited that they gave off some wierd kind of pulsing that they wernt sure about, which is why it never saw the light of day, but they think it may have been the first sign of gravity being thrown off from the furnace. If that was true, then that might be the first gravity drive. Wouldnt that push the Gal faster than light speed, since grativons are faster than light, as gravity takes effect before the light or sound of a singularity effects another?
tabbi

Tabbi,

I just reread this. The problem with a gravity-wave drive coming from the Gal is, what does it do to the rest of the RTFF? I think the rust-buckets of the fleet would get crushed the instant the Gal went to lightspeed.

[Damocles]

Seriously though, I read in Popular Science about a type of propulsion that NASA had considered, it used nuke drives fed with some kind of ion particles that would create more thrust than just a series of nukes.
(snip)
I think it was something to do with helium ion or something because the gas was stable and all until it broke down in the nuke furnace, then it became terribly dynamic.

Anyhow, in theory, the ions were so excited that they gave off some wierd kind of pulsing that they wernt sure about, which is why it never saw the light of day, but they think it may have been the first sign of gravity being thrown off from the furnace. If that was true, then that might be the first gravity drive. Wouldnt that push the Gal faster than light speed, since grativons are faster than light, as gravity takes effect before the light or sound of a singularity effects another? Im not sure, I read the stuff, but honestly, Im usually more interested in Cosmopolitan than Cosmology.

tabbi

Brief answer;
Nobody KNOWS the speed of gravity with absolute certainty but we can predict tides to the second, based on the assumption that gravity is an influence that propogates at the speed of light. There is a big gaping hole in cosmology right now and a big fat problem-either the stars are too old or the universe is too young. Something is wrong and we need to understand gravity a lot better if we are going to fix it.(Complicated-involves apparent violations of conservation of angular momentum by rotating galaxies, fouled up red shifts, lots of missing mass and cosmic background radiation showing as clustered signal distributed in a screwy way-right in the direction of the Earth's poles-generally Galactic north/south when the radiation should be a uniform glow across the sky!)


Tabbi,

I just reread this. The problem with a gravity-wave drive coming from the Gal is, what does it do to the rest of the RTFF? I think the rust-buckets of the fleet would get crushed the instant the Gal went to lightspeed.

WarMachine

Even briefer answer:
Inverse square law applies to all forces that influence across a field, which includes gravity. Beyond a few thousand meters from your(now collapsing into the hypermass) "alligator" the effect is minor. Plus to generate gravity waves powerful enough to move the ship, you need a few trillion ton hypermass the size of a golfball. OOPs, the hypermass can't move. Its too massive! :D

Cheers; :salute:

[3DMaster]

Brief answer;
Nobody KNOWS the speed of gravity with absolute certainty but we can predict tides to the second, based on the assumption that gravity is an influence that propogates at the speed of light. There is a big gaping hole in cosmology right now and a big fat problem-either the stars are too old or the universe is too young. Something is wrong and we need to understand gravity a lot better if we are going to fix it.(Complicated-involves apparent violations of conservation of angular momentum by rotating galaxies, fouled up red shifts, lots of missing mass and cosmic background radiation showing as clustered signal distributed in a screwy way-right in the direction of the Earth's poles-generally Galactic north/south when the radiation should be a uniform glow across the sky!)

Hyper-dimensional physics:

A turning gravitational and electro-magnetic field will pull energy from a hyper-dimensional massless eather (remarkably similar in chracteristics as Star Trek's subspace and by extension Super String physics subspace really, although those fools are still trying to turn subspace in tiny smaller than microscopic disconnected swirls conveniently rolling up in the lower dimensions). Stars and planets thus pull energy from this eather at certain angles (sunspots, the eye storm on Jupiter, etc. etc.), producing heat, and a redshift that is not acounted for in established physics.

This effect is comulative

Result: Angular momentum is one of the major components of the energy production. A stars production of energy isn't just from the Star, but the planets that orbit it as well; the total angular momentum of the entire solar system is what draws energy from the stars hyperdimensional (subspace) field. This effect will affect a system's lower dimensional propeties; accounting for galaxies nor right Angular momentum.

Sadly, the physics explains pretty much all the holes, makes one re-evalute some old held truths, is nowhere near finished, will undoubtedly bring up whole new questions and holes and problems (yeah! More stuff to find out!), will revolutionize pretty much everyting on and off planet; it is also however sadly ignored by established science and doesn't get the funding required to do proper research to get the proof. It's also been around since mid last century, and there are indications that Tesla understood it.

[Damocles]

Hyper-dimensional physics:

A urning gravitational and electro-magnetic field well pull energy from a hyper-dimensional massless eather (remarkably similar in chracteristics as Star Trek's subspace and by extension Super String physics subspace really, although those fools are still trying to turn subspace in tiny smaller than microscopic disconnected swirls conveniently rolling up in the lower dimensions). Stars and planets thus pull energy from this eather at certain angles (sunspots, the eye storm on Jupiter, etc. etc.), producing heat, and a redshift that is not acounted for in established physics.

This effect is comulative

Result: Angular momentum is one of the major components of the energy production. A stars production of energy isn't just from the Star, but the planets that orbit it as well; the total angular momentum of the entire solar system is what draws energy from the stars hyperdimensional (subspace) field. This effect will affect a system's lower dimensional propeties; accounting for galaxies nor right Angular momentum.

Sadly, the physics explains pretty much all the holes, makes one re-evalute some old held truths, is nowhere near finished, will undoubtedly bring up whole new questions and holes and problems (yeah! More stuff to find out!), will revolutionize pretty much everyting on and off planet; it is also however sadly ignored by established science and doesn't get the funding required to do proper research to get the proof. It's also been around since mid last century, and there are indications that Tesla understood it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

String theory
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

String theory is a model of fundamental physics whose building blocks are one-dimensional extended objects (strings) rather than the zero-dimensional points (particles) that are the basis of the Standard Model of particle physics. For this reason, string theories are able to avoid problems associated with the presence of pointlike particles in a physical theory. Study of string theories has revealed that they require not just strings but other objects, variously including points, membranes, and higher-dimensional objects.
(Read the article...D.)



As you finish the article, you should understand two things,

1. those micro-wormholes that I said would take a Jovian mass of negative matter to inflate; are the extra dimensions that "those fools" struggle to visualize and those dimensions are necessary to cobine the four binding forces in string theory-and thus actually predict the suspected inflationary force and also predict WIMPS.

2. that we are still putting together the al;gebra that is robust enough to handle N^N/-N actions over up to 26 ordinate variables. If we could graph it we could solve the theory with Feynmann diagrams or light trees, but we can't graph it. We have to use polynomial differential equations to solve for the results.

We have the computers. What we lack is the mathematicians as yet to build the proof sets and reduce the complex algebra to a managable toolkit of equations to solve such p/d problems. From what little I can understand; it will take the geniuses about a century to plow through the proofs and make a workable algebara to do this.

In the meantime, the suggestions that there is a hyperspace(misunderstood concept) which is some kind of energy reservoir that leaks into our universe is nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space

Vacuum energy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Vacuum energy is an underlying background energy that exists in space even when devoid of matter.

Field and particle theories
Quantum field theory considers the vacuum ground state not to be completely empty, but to consist of a seething mass of virtual particles and fields. Since these fields do not have a permanent existence, they are called vacuum fluctuations. In the Casimir effect, two metal plates can cause a change in the vacuum energy density between them which generates a measurable force.

Some believe that vacuum energy might be the "dark energy" (also called quintessence) associated with the cosmological constant in general relativity and thought to be similar to a negative force of gravity.

Implications
Vacuum energy has a number of consequences. For one, vacuum fluctuations are always created as particle/antiparticle pairs. The creation of these "virtual particles" near the event horizon of a black hole has been hypothesized by physicist Stephen Hawking to be a mechanism for the eventual "evaporation" of black holes. The net energy of the universe remains zero so long as the particle pairs annihilate each other within Planck time. If one of the pair is pulled into the black hole before this, then the other particle becomes "real" and energy/mass is essentially radiated into space from the black hole. This loss is cumulative and could result in the black hole's disappearance over time. The time required is dependent on the mass of the black hole, but could be on the order of 10100 years for large solar-mass black holes.


(Read the rest of the article...D.)

Vacuum energy is REAL within our space and is part of it. It alone could account for the weird things in the cosmos I described earlier. For that to be, though, not only would it have to be a component in string theory that leads to spatial inflation; it would also have to be an impeding force which on the macro-scale would account for those red shift discrepecencies giving us a younger universe than we would expect given the stars we see and it would account for the whacky mismatch between galactic rotation and apparemnt angular momentum. Call it the negative tidal effect-a repulsor as opposed to a tractor force.

Cheers; :salute:

[3DMaster]

As you finish the article, you should understand two things,

1. those micro-wormholes that I said would take a Jovian mass of negative matter to inflate; are the extra dimensions that "those fools" struggle to visualize and those dimensions are necessary to cobine the four binding forces in string theory-and thus actually predict the suspected inflationary force and also predict WIMPS.

2. that we are still putting together the al;gebra that is robust enough to handle N^N/-N actions over up to 26 ordinate variables. If we could graph it we could solve the theory with Feynmann diagrams or light trees, but we can't graph it. We have to use polynomial differential equations to solve for the results.

We have the computers. What we lack is the mathematicians as yet to build the proof sets and reduce the complex algebra to a managable toolkit of equations to solve such p/d problems. From what little I can understand; it will take the geniuses about a century to plow through the proofs and make a workable algebara to do this.

In the meantime, the suggestions that there is a hyperspace(misunderstood concept) which is some kind of energy reservoir that leaks into our universe is nonsense.

No, it isn't nonsense, and it isn't hyperspace, it's subspace, but it's hyper-dimensional in nature; aka beyond our three visible dimensions. And it's not an energy reservoir; nor does it 'leak'. Just because a certain action can draw energy from a place, doesn't make that place a reservoir, nor is there any 'leaking' going on.

The simple cold hard fact, is that Super Sring physics is nothing but fancy mathematics, that doesn't do anything: it's never predicted anything, it's never proven anything; nothing of the sort; except possibly one: that there are more dimensions than the three we can see. Amazingly instead of looking for signs of these they continue to write more equasions in order to try and roll these up and make them disappear. They're not trying to 'visualize' these dimenions and the next question are there signs, can we see these dimensions or the effect thereof be seen or shown or found experimentally; no they're trying to make a nice equasion that has them disappear in our 3 dimensions. "Scientists" these days; more like priests following their little indictum: there's nothing beyone the obvious, there will never be anything beyond the obvious, any kind of interstellar FTL travel is most assuredly impossible, and even if our very own physics says there is stuff beyond the obvious, there is still nothing beyond the obvious, we will ignore anything beyond the obvious, preferably create an equastion that will make that beyond the obvious disappear. Of course, this obviously means they are hopelessly wrong.

Vacuum energy is REAL within our space and is part of it. It alone could account for the weird things in the cosmos I described earlier. For that to be, though, not only would it have to be a component in string theory that leads to spatial inflation; it would also have to be an impeding force which on the macro-scale would account for those red shift discrepecencies giving us a younger universe than we would expect given the stars we see and it would account for the whacky mismatch between galactic rotation and apparemnt angular momentum. Call it the negative tidal effect-a repulsor as opposed to a tractor force.

Cheers; :salute:

There is nothing beyond the obvious, there is nothing beyond the obvious, and when we detect and see stuff beyond the obbvious, it's lumped in with the obvious.

[Damocles]

1. One of the things superstring theory predicts is negative matter.
2. One of the other things superstring theory predicts is that gravity is the primary common operant among the binding forces. Other theories make the same prediction but string theory makes a stab at describing how. Its over my head to try to describe it; but it boils down to speculation that gravity is the common influence over which all the other binding forces' bosons operate. That is that gravity is the field that is space

Whether that is the mundane or the obvious, I leave to others to judge. I find it bizarre in the extreme to regard gravity as equivalent to the tensor of space itself.

Cheers;

[WarMachine]

*Shameless bump*