Rebellion

[ojai22]

i was wondering if anyone has read Richard's latest book, Rebellion. I haven't read it yet, but anyone that has, please post your impressions. No spoilers, please.

[Eldriam]

'Someones elses have read' :mad: it and published their... hummm... hummm... 'reviews' at amazon.com:

"Spotlight Reviews" at

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743445031/qid=1026106119/sr=2-1/ref=
sr_2_1/103-6522707-3331064

[reckless]

Eldriam

No review is impartial or objective. By definition a review reflects one person's subjective opinion about a book, movie, piece of art, etc.

As for the reviews of Rebellion on Amazon.com, you might disagree with them, but they reflect honest opinions (mine included) and mostly explain why they are critical of the book. My criticisms were based on the Mary Sue-ish version of Apollo (a flaw infecting the earlier books as well), the lack of consistency, and the fact that the author (be it Richard Hatch or anyone else) seemed to forget that Galactica was an ensemble series.

As for giving constructive feedback, I don't think that's the role of people reviewing on Amazon.com. I think their role is to tell other readers whether or not to buy the book. However, if Richard Hatch wanted constructive feedback, I would recommend (1) he watch the series a few times; (2) he pay attention to canon, the personalities and relationships developed in the show; and (3) he give characters other than Apollo meaningful plots.

Reckless

[ojai22]

Reckless,

Thank you for your honest opinion. I haven't read this one yet, but I have read the others. I think what Richard does with them is take just one section of the fleet - the hub - and spins his stories from there. To cover the entire fleet thoroughly would seem to be a massive undertaking.

I see this is your first post. Welcome, and I hope you enjoy CF.:)

[reckless]

Ojai,

Thanks for the welcome. It's funny, but I'm pretty sure that I've posted here in the past. I generally lurk here, but there seems to be no point talking on the SciFi boards anymore.

Reckless

[michaelfaries]

I finished reading "Battlestar Galactica: Rebellion" this past weekend.

[Bear in mind: It was Richard's "Battlestar Galactica: Armageddon" back in 1998 which brought me back into the BG fan fold -- and led to my involvement with the revival, the web sites, various friendships, etc. ]

NO SPOILERS BELOW:

I believe Richard's first three books were much stronger than "Rebellion" (his fourth).

In particular, co-author Christopher Golden (on the first two books) did a decent job with the story flow. In "Rebellion," co-author Alan Rodgers dwells in places and rushes through others, particularly at the end of the book.

Richard's initial concepts for the book (which included some scientific theorem/input by BG:TSC science advisor, Dr. Kevin Grazier from the U.S.'s Jet Propulsion Lab) were terrific. The final product, though, needed fine tuning before it was released.

When we're able to discuss this book openly, I'll delve into deeper reasonings/ details.

Richard was just granted the green light to work on the fifth book. (He mentioned this to me today.) I don't know who the co-author will be. While Mr. Rodgers may be an award-winning author in his own right, I hope a new co-author will be considered. The original series characters continue to shine brightly within these books. And the inclusions of various new characters adds additional depth and interest, as always.

I DO suggest reading/purchasing "Rebellion." I simply thought the story had more potential and needed to be better edited before release.

Michael
:colwar:

[Eldriam]

___________________________________________________________

Making and owning an H-bomb is the kind of challenge real people seek.
Who wants to be a passive victim of nuclear war when with a little effort
you can be an active participant? Bomb shelters are for losers. Who wants to huddle together underground eating canned Spam? Winners want to push the button themselves. Making your own H-bomb is a big step in nuclear assertiveness training - it's called Taking Charge. We're sure you'll enjoy the risks and the heady thrill of playing nuclear chicken.
____________________________________________________________

[michaelfaries]

Originally posted by reckless
(...) However, if Richard Hatch wanted constructive feedback, I would recommend (1) he watch the series a few times; (2) he pay attention to canon, the personalities and relationships developed in the show; and (3) he give characters other than Apollo meaningful plots.

I know your comments were meant well. I would like to address a couple of points, though.

re: #1: Richard has watched the series a few times.

Of interest: Richard provides detailed overviews/ plot summaries/ synopses to his co-authors which forms the basis of the book. His co-authors has been known to take things out of context. The Kobollian bloodline is a prime example; then again, not everyone gets to sit down with Richard and hear what his original intent/portrayal of that plot thread was.

There's a couple of canonical oversights in the new book which stuck out like eyesores, especially if you're familiar with the original series.

Ultimately, Richard is responsible for the final product which bears his name. I wish more edits/reviews would be conducted before the manuscripts were submitted.

re: #2: After twenty+ yahrens in space, the characters have changed somewhat. Change is constant; growth is inevitable; wisdom is gained, experiences shape people, etc. Arrested growth isn't realistic, imho (save Starbuck's case. lol)

If anything, I'd like to learn more about the character's pasts, what shaped them, etc. Even hints on this subject. I have a feeling, though, that fans would be in an uproar if various characters' pasts were disclosed.

re: #3: Yes, the books are Apollo-centric at times. I'd argue that William Shatner's books are too Kirk-centric. Such is the nature of the novels. It's expected. Richard wasn't the fifth billed character on the show; he was the first billed character. And since he's authoring them, it's only natural that Apollo has more visibility.

I'm not seeking to change your mind on any of this. I thought I'd share my two cubits worth, though.

Michael
:colwar:


.

[reckless]

Eldriam,

I'm not sure what my being an attorney has to do with anything, so if that was meant as an insult, I'll ignore it.

I'm not sure what you expect from me. I don't believe it's necessary to offer constructive criticism to someone who's asking me to pay $20+ to buy a work that purports to be Battlestar Galactica literature. It's also rather difficult to post a review on Amazon.com that explains in a lot of detail what's wrong with a book without spoiling it. (However, I will mention a certain one- or two-paragraph part at the end that describes a seemingly major event in the most summary fashion. When you read the book, you will know what I mean. Plots need to be developed. Telling us "something happened with a major character and then something else happened" is not good writing.)

I also find your attack on people who've criticized Richard's book somewhat hard to accept when you have not read the book yet. I also noticed that you don't seem too upset about the glowing review that one person posted. It is far less specific in why the book deserves praise than the criticisms.

In any event, I will respond later if you want to discuss specifics -- at least what I can remember. I do not own the book, because I would not waste $20 on Rebellion.

Reckless

[reckless]

Michael,

I appreciate your thoughts and respect your opinion. We'll probably never change one another's minds, but I did want to comment on a few of the things you've said.

I can understand that Richard only gave his notes to the co-author, but if he's holding himself out as the author of Rebellion, he and his co-author bear the responsibility for the finished product. Saying 'Richard's ultimately responsible, but let me tell you how everyone else is really to blame' is a weak excuse. Ultimately, the average reader doesn't have access to Richard to explain what he meant; we have to go by what is written on the page. And if that final product is not what Richard subjectively intended, the reader has no way of knowing. Being told after the fact doesn't cure the impression given by the written work.

With respect to changes over time, I agree that change is understandable. In fact, I would have problems with a story that takes place yahrens after the series ended where the characters displayed no growth at all. On the other hand, growth and changes need to be explained, and characters still need to reflect their sources in canon. I think that is a significant flaw in this series. The characters have changed to some degree, but it often feels as if we've been plopped into a universe where we're told "that's Athena" or "that's Starbuck" and they just don't seem like the characters I grew up watching. If there was an explanation for those changes, it might smoothe the transition. (BTW, this is not a criticism I reserve for the BSG books; I've made similar statements about fan fiction and have been similarly criticized for my own stories.) Authors should not simply tack an existing name on a character and assuming people will accept it's the character from canon.

As for the Apollo-centric nature of the books, I guess I have two responses. First, I don't read Star Trek, but I would probably feel the same way about a book that focuses overly on Kirk to the exclusion of the other Star Trek characters.

Second, I see BSG as somewhat different from Star Trek in that there is only one set of BSG books being published right now. After such a long absence in getting official BSG stories, it frustrates me that the only BSG books seem to be the continuing series of Apollo the Demigod. I believe the Shatner Trek books were fairly recent (last ten years or so), so by the time the reader got Shatner's homage to Kirk, the reader had already been able to read a lot of books based on the entire cast of characters. At times, books will focus on a single character. Here, however, we've had four books -- the only four books -- and they've all been dominated by Apollo. If the first four Trek books had focused primarily on Kirk's actions, while Spock did very little, I think Star Trek fans would have been upset. Had they been written by Shatner, I suspect they would have been up in arms. So I don't think 'Shatner did it, so Richard can' is a fair excuse.

BSG was an ensemble show. It would not have been the same if it had only been Apollo without Starbuck, Boomer, Sheba, etc. That Apollo was the first-billed character is irrelevant. Or are you really saying that Apollo was more important to the show or more memorable to fans than Starbuck? While I can accept that other characters may be less important, I still think that the ensemble cast was BSG's strength. To create a meaningful BSG universe -- especially one that the reader visits only once a year or so -- I believe the official BSG author should provide meaningful plots for more than one character. That doesn't mean that every character needs to be emphasized in every book, but there needs to be some balance and it should not feel like we're reading a Sheba/Cassie/Starbuck/Boomer/ scene just because the author feels obligated to toss it in before getting back to Apollo. (Btw, if each of these four books had been focused on Starbuck in the way they have been focused on Apollo, my criticism would have been the same. They would not do justice to the whole BSG universe.)

Finally, I also don't accept the excuse that because Richard played Apollo it's reasonable that he focuses on Apollo. It might be understandable, but I don't think it's reasonable or acceptable. Richard has been to present the continuing saga of BSG, not just the continuing saga of Apollo. If he wants BSG fans to buy the books, I believe he has a duty to present the entire BSG universe.

Reckless

[Eldriam]

:LOL:
--

[michaelfaries]

Originally posted by reckless
I can understand that Richard only gave his notes to the co-author, but if he's holding himself out as the author of Rebellion, he and his co-author bear the responsibility for the finished product. Saying 'Richard's ultimately responsible, but let me tell you how everyone else is really to blame' is a weak excuse.

??

I wrote: "Ultimately, Richard is responsible for the final product which bears his name. I wish more edits/reviews would be conducted before the manuscripts were submitted."

Where on Earth are you interpreting "but let me tell you how everyone else is really to blame' is a weak excuse"?

My original sentence was actually affirming your prior posting. I don't call it a "weak excuse." I stated plainly that Richard is ultimately responsible.

As for the Apollo-centric nature of the books, I guess I have two responses. First, I don't read Star Trek, but I would probably feel the same way about a book that focuses overly on Kirk to the exclusion of the other Star Trek characters.

My point is this: Shatner's use of Kirk is understandable. It's his book; he knows the character well; he isn't going to make another character the frontrunner.

[Side note: Richard has never compared himself to Shatner's books -- just so everyone understands. For me, it seemed like a good example to use]

I don't think Richard excludes the other characters. I would agree that there needs to be more focus on others, It would be nice to see Sheba reminscing about life before the "Living Legend" episodes, or confiding in someone about Apollo (instead of the reverse). Character growth happens mainly for Apollo (and in many respects, Athena, too).

[Side note: If Battlestar Galactica had continued, it would have been interesting to see Richard write about Apollo and co. during those times, not twenty yahrens later. Would the stories have been Apollo-centric? Would character focuses have been expanded beyond Apollo? Probably so.

That dynamic would have changed our entire conversation. ;) ]


Second, I see BSG as somewhat different from Star Trek in that there is only one set of BSG books being published right now. After such a long absence in getting official BSG stories, it frustrates me that the only BSG books seem to be the continuing series of Apollo the Demigod.

Interesting, sardonic tone you're establishing...


I believe the Shatner Trek books were fairly recent (last ten years or so), so by the time the reader got Shatner's homage to Kirk, the reader had already been able to read a lot of books based on the entire cast of characters. At times, books will focus on a single character. Here, however, we've had four books -- the only four books -- and they've all been dominated by Apollo. If the first four Trek books had focused primarily on Kirk's actions, while Spock did very little, I think Star Trek fans would have been upset. Had they been written by Shatner, I suspect they would have been up in arms. So I don't think 'Shatner did it, so Richard can' is a fair excuse.

Agreed on various points.


BSG was an ensemble show. It would not have been the same if it had only been Apollo without Starbuck, Boomer, Sheba, etc. That Apollo was the first-billed character is irrelevant. Or are you really saying that Apollo was more important to the show or more memorable to fans than Starbuck?

This is twisting what I originally stated.

While I can accept that other characters may be less important, I still think that the ensemble cast was BSG's strength.

Agreed.

To create a meaningful BSG universe -- especially one that the reader visits only once a year or so -- I believe the official BSG author should provide meaningful plots for more than one character. That doesn't mean that every character needs to be emphasized in every book, but there needs to be some balance and it should not feel like we're reading a Sheba/Cassie/Starbuck/Boomer/ scene just because the author feels obligated to toss it in before getting back to Apollo. (Btw, if each of these four books had been focused on Starbuck in the way they have been focused on Apollo, my criticism would have been the same. They would not do justice to the whole BSG universe.)[/QUOTE}

Insights appreciated and understood. I see what you're saying. I've wanted the same at times.

[QUOTE]Finally, I also don't accept the excuse that because Richard played Apollo it's reasonable that he focuses on Apollo. It might be understandable, but I don't think it's reasonable or acceptable.

I strongly disagree. Not reasonable or acceptable?

Various BG episodes featured characters in lead roles. The stories were told from their vantage points. "The Young Lords" for example was Starbuck's story. It's reasonable and acceptable that the story centered on him. Even in the novel adaptation.

We can agree to disagree on this point.

Richard has been to present the continuing saga of BSG, not just the continuing saga of Apollo. If he wants BSG fans to buy the books, I believe he has a duty to present the entire BSG universe.

I think he does. From what I'm seeing, it's the ratio of what is presented that is the issue.

Michael
:colwar:

[reckless]

Eldriam,

I understand that you did not mean to insult me. It just seemed like a strange way to address someone posting under a psuedonym.

I am a bit confused about your assuming that people who openly criticize Rebellion hate Richard personally. I'll admit that I've been critical of Richard's conduct vis a vis the revival, but that is tied in large measure to the books. I've repeatedly expressed disagreement with the idea of putting Richard in charge of the revival precisely because I find the vision of BSG in his books so at odds with what I think made BSG work.
That said, I don't hate Richard or bear him any personal animus. It's simply that I don't believe he should be the arbiter of all things BSG. When I criticize Richard's books, it's because I find them poorly written and think they present a distorted view of the BSG universe.

Criticizing a work of fiction is not a personal attack on a writer any more than a negative review of a film is not a personal attack on a director. If I review Attack of the Clones and said that George Lucas can't write dialogue to save his life or that he creates human characters that are less animated than his CGI creations, I'm criticising the work. I'm not claiming George Lucas is a rotten human being. Similarly saying Richard's books are no better than average Apollo-centered fanfic is a critism of the work; it's not a personal attack. (BTW, some of the Apollo-centered fanfic on the internet is far superior to Rebellion.)

I also wanted clarify a misperception I may have fostered about people not reading the book. On another list, I said I "skimmed" the book at my bookstore. Someone assumed that meant I hadn't read it. but that's not true. I read Rebellion for more than an hour and a half, which provided me with ample time to form an opinion about the plot and characterization. If you want textual analysis, I'll apologize now. After all, it's a BSG novel, not Shakespeare.

Reckless

[michaelfaries]

Originally posted by reckless
I'm not sure what my being an attorney has to do with anything, so if that was meant as an insult, I'll ignore it.

I don't think Eldriam is insulting you here...


It's also rather difficult to post a review on Amazon.com that explains in a lot of detail what's wrong with a book without spoiling it. (However, I will mention a certain one- or two-paragraph part at the end that describes a seemingly major event in the most summary fashion. When you read the book, you will know what I mean. Plots need to be developed. Telling us "something happened with a major character and then something else happened" is not good writing.)

I just submitted an 782 word review of the book, sans major spoilers. It's do-able.


I also find your attack on people who've criticized Richard's book somewhat hard to accept when you have not read the book yet. I also noticed that you don't seem too upset about the glowing review that one person posted. It is far less specific in why the book deserves praise than the criticisms.

Reckless, you're neglecting that Eldriam has read Richard's past work. And that sets a precendent for her thinking patterns on the subject. I would have done the same, not having read the book, because certain expectations were previously established. (And after having read it, I have some strong opinions about the book which one wouldn't expect from this staunch supporter of Richard's.)

I think there's more concern for the constant negativity around Battlestar Galactica and our desires for what we want from the property than we're getting/not getting. And that's fueling our passions/emotions on the subject.

Michael
:colwar:

[reckless]

Michael,

Not to belabor the subject further, but a few quick points.

First, I realize that you said Richard is ultimately to blame. But, if that's the case, why even mention that Richard gave his notes to his co-author or that he intended something different than what wound up in the final book? As a reader, I can only judge what actually makes it on paper. Intentions, notes, drafts and the writing process are irrelevant. You may not have intended for your explanation of the process to sound like you were trying to absolve Richard of responsibility, but that's how it read to me. If you believe Richard is ultimately responsible, you should say that and leave out the explanations for why things went wrong. Otherwise, it sounds like you're simply paying lip service to the notion of his ultimate responsibility but trying to convince people otherwise.

Second, I should have comented on the idea that various episodes focused on single characters. That is true. But when you're talking about 20 episodes of a series that viewers watch in a single year, you can focus on a single character from time to time without undermining the ensemble. That again goes back to my main point: This is the only current BSG series of books and all four of the them have focused predominantly on Apollo. That lack of balance is a problem. If the first two books had been more ensemble oriented and then Richard had written an Apollo-focused book, I don't think I would be so critical. But that's not what has happened, and the result is a distorted and disappointing presentation of BSG.

Finally, I don't think it's the obligation of the review to write extensive reviews on Amazon.com. My goal was to give potential readers advice on whether to buy the book. Could I have given a lengthier review? Could I have offered constructive criticism? Perhaps. But what I wrote was honest, informed and serves its purpose. And considering a number of the things I felt was wrong with the book plotwise, I don't think I could have conveyed them without spoilers.

Reckless

[Eldriam]

:)

[Eldriam]

:)

[kingfish]

Hello,
No. I haven't read any of Richard's books. However Richard should be commended. He has kept the legacy of BSG alive over the years. No author is perfect and I will not criticize. I am writing 2 fan-fictions. I might think that they are good when in fact someone else may think they stink. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. That is what America is about.


Regards,
Paul

[michaelfaries]

Originally posted by kingfish
I am writing 2 fan-fictions. I might think that they are good when in fact someone else may think they stink.

Well, let me comment for the record again that your Cain/Pegasus stories have been superb. I can't wait to hear them as audio plays on Radio Galactica. (They're being worked on right now, albeit slowly, as I'm hearing.)

Michael
:colwar:

[Muffit]

Hi all,

I just finished reading Rebellion and thought I should share my feelings. It's not a review, just my thoughts.

It was difficult to get started, I began to get disappointed after 20 pages or so. But suddenly it got much better, and I must say I very much enjoyed the entire middle of the book. Near the end I thought it went beyond the climax though and should've just stayed with a winning story. I really am glad Richard has explored new territory with Rebellion; I always thought if the series went on they should explore the potential time bomb of problems running out of food and supplies would cause (which they broached in Saga of a Star World).

I think it is not as good as the other 3 books but still fun to read. And definitely if you read it you will want to know what happens in book 5 since he leaves you hanging.

On the subject of user reviews at Amazon, I think we should take them with a grain of salt. All opinions are necessarily subjective, and I have often had my hopes dashed by reviews of books and videos after reading one, only to find the book or video was really good (or vice versa). The thing about feelings or opinions is, we want others to share ours cuz we naturally believe in ourselves. I think Rebellion is neither great nor bad, if you were iffy on the other books you might want to pass this one; and if you liked the other books you will probably like this one too.

:muffit:

[Artemis]

Well I just got my copy and will probably read it after I get it signed by Richard Hatch at comicon in a week and a half. I'll post my opinion later.
:colwar:

[captmiloman]

I'm almost finished reading Rebellion. It started out slow, but then it started picking up. I like the direction it has gone. I could've pictured this book and the previous book as possible TV movies. I'm looking forward to reading Richard's next book. I'd also like to see a comic book company get a hold of these someday.

[Raymar3d]

"The whole thing with Richard is that his books tend to naturally tap into archetypes. From that archetypal POV, demigods and demiurges (in the christian translation, the demiurges are 'evil' and are the ones who created women - duh!) are a given path to follow."

Hi Eldriam,

I'm curious about this part of your post. I never heard of a demiurge, and I'm absolutely certain that in the book of Genesis, God created Eve from Adam's rib. No one else gets any credit that I know of. Personally, I can't imagine any evil spirit creating anything, particularly anything as lovely as a woman. :)

(Personally, I feel this is a parable, rather than intended to be taken literally, as the process of creation isn't the important thing, rather the FACT of creation. So, whether it was in seven days or seven billion years, and the process was evolution or not, is really irrellevant. But certainly God could do anything, any way He wants to, IMHO. And, for that reason, who am I to say? At the same time, why would there be a fossil record that SEEMS to go back millions of years if it weren't true? I do not believe that God would create that as a falsehood to mislead us. That is why I believe it is a parable. A way for God to explain to simple shepherds what they needed to know to understand God created the world and the Heavens above. Just as we explain in simplistic terms how a car works to a child, without going into detail on the workings of an internal combustion engine, etc.)

I think that women were treated very unfairly in the ancient times. Jesus Christ Himself set things straight on that subject. One man and one woman, rather than harems, etc. There's a lot of material in the gospels about it, I won't go through it here....

Anyhow, I didn't intend to make this a religious debate or anything, just wondered where you got your information is all. Perhaps that is in Apocrypha? Or, maybe legend? I seem to recall reading of evil spirits posing as women to capture the souls of men, but I don't recall the name, unless it was a succubus, which is said to be a female demon.

Thanks,

Ken

[BSG_Sci_FiPulse]

Although I have only read the first two of Richards Books, I found them both to be entertaining, the first one was a little slow in parts for me, basically because the paceing needed to be slowed somewhat to introduce the newer Characters such as Daltan.

Yes they seem to be Pro Apollo, but a fair amount of work had gone into Athena in the book, and for the most part Athena is like the connection as it were to Apollo which drives the storie.

In regards to more work on Sheba and Starbuck and the other characters, am inclined to want to see Starbuck drive the storie or maybe a even have say Apollo leading an A plot and Starbuck Leading a B Plot that are interwoven.

In regards to the Trek books which I have read a few of, with there being so many writers for them, the nature of that is one Writer will write from the perspective of Worf in a TNG novel, or another will write from the perspective or Uhura in a original series novel. It is the writers personal prefference. For example if I were to write a book say on Quantum Leap, I would want to take it from the Holograms perspective.

Yes it would be nice, if we had more writers doing BG books, but only Richard has stepped to the plate thus far. I havent seen Glen Larson write one since the 1970s.

Perhaps what needs to be done here, is for some sort of competition be organized with the publishing house that holds the BG license, and have a fan fiction comp akin to the the Star Trek: Strange New World Comp.

That way you are going to find new writers for the books, most of the Trek novelist wrote fan fiction before they got anything published by a publishing house. Just look at the early 70s there were perhaps only three writers doing trek books, and a lot of what was published then were the books based on all the episodes by James Blish.

Am not sure on the legalities of the Trek: Strange New Worlds contest, but if Pocket books can do it, why not the company that publishes Richards Books.

Also I think some of this Criticism of Richard is out of Order, without him having made the promo movie, no matter how Apollo centric certain people may feel it is, BG would not be on the minds of Universal of The Sci Fi Channel, and Desanto probably never would have rode the waves last year in an attempt to do a continuence no matter how bad some people think his script was. I am not about to pass judgement on the Desanto script myself because I have not read it.

Book reveiws, generally I ignore, But a reveiw can be balanced, and from the reveiws I have read on Amazon they are not balanced and tend to write something off as total tosh without justifying the reasons for it being total tosh.

I have written reveiws on stuff before, and I tend to forget I have a favorate character or actor in a show in order to try and be objective. Why well if you are to biased, you will get pulled up on it.

An example of a reveiwer being baised are the episode reviews for Enterprise written by Michelle Erica Green for Trektoday, she always manages to mention Trip Tucker pretty frequently in her reviews, even when the episode she is reveiwing did not use the character of trip tucker all that much. I tend to review an ensamble piece as an ensamble piece. The best reveiwers look at the big picture, and focus on the whole as apposed to critisizing something for the sake of it.

[Eldriam]

:salute:

[Raymar3d]

Hi Eldriam,

You certainly have done some homework on this topic.

I think you might be referring to the woman known as Lilith, who, if I recall is mentioned as Adam's first wife before Eve, in the Apocrypha. Supposedly, she wouldn't be subservient to man, therefore, she was cast out and Eve was created from Adam, to be one-flesh.

She then became the serpent to trick Eve, if I recall. This in turn was the way the goddess was explained.

Now, I think that what all this represents is non-canon Biblical material-- that's why it's in Apocrypha. Think of it also as fan-fiction. Interesting, but not part of the Bible. And, in fact, dangerous. In the book of the Revelation, the final part says that if anyone should try to add to that which is in the book, they would be damned. Not to be taken lightly.

I'm going to propose something else here, which actually is very relevant to my thinking on Demonslayers. Imagine for a moment, that YOU are the Devil. You have already lost the war, but there is always a chance that from defeat, you can regain your strength for a second war, and this time, you can win. What are your methods?

If I were the Enemy, I would create doubt, first and foremost.
I would strike at the credibility of my witnesses. In fact, infiltrating the church and state and doing evil in the name of God would be TOP priority. Next, would be to say there is no Devil. If you did that, then it follows that there is no God, either. What better way to alienate those who are on the fence? Or, those who are weak in faith? Right now, look at all the abuse cases going on in the Catholic Church. As a Christian believer, I really do see the hand of Satan at work daily, and that's just one spot.

The Spanish Inquisition was also a dark time, when evil was done in the name of God. Of course, that world was savage beyond anything we can comprehend in our 21st century air-conditioned, internet ready, television addicted lives today. So, it's hard to judge from here--the way they lived then.

Now look at Adolph Hitler. Evil sicko, but using a demonizing tactic against the Jews, and twisting the cross to his own ends under a religious framework.

Demonizing others is dangerous business. That's why it is said, "Judge not, lest thee be judged."

So, I don't see Jesus as anti Old Testament, but rather similar to Kirk in "The Omega Glory" where he was dealing with the Yangs and the Cohms. They recited words they didn't understand, and therefore they had no true meaning. Jesus was here to set the record straight on what the Old Testament was about, and to set things right between God and Man (and Woman too).

The one last thing I'll say about the degredation of women, is that it's simply men who also have inherited the guilt, trying to shift the blame, just like children do when they say, "He started it," knowing full well they're equally guilty. It's in all the cultures from Judaism to Christianity to Islaam. And even in eastern religions/cultures to an extent.

But, I believe that Jesus IS the true Son of God, and the only way to make it to heaven is by God's grace, through faith in Him. Because he died to mend the rift between God and mankind, to make us perfect before God's righteousness. We are all doomed to die eternally without this.

My belief. I'm not trying to antagonize anyone who doesn't share it. We humans don't have all the answers. We don't know but a few of the questions. :)

Thanks for an interesting discussion.

Ken :)

[Eldriam]

:...:

[Eldriam]

:LOL:

[jewels]

Hi everyone,
Just wanted to ask if any of you who've read the book wanted to discuss questions the book might have left you with as there were some technical/science things that made me a little nuts, plus some rank things, some time things.... I'm especially rusty on how the various ship's drives work.

I enjoyed all of Richard's books (I take BSG lit. as fun recreation, be it fan fiction or published): loved the 1st two, only thing I didn't like about the 3rd was I got time-unit confused (just like old times, the TV show...). And then there was the matter of going to bed at the point in Resurrection when Starbuck is dead, before the funeral, etc.--HUGE mistake if it is the first BSG you've read since 1980ish.

I was out of the fan loop until this summer. :blush: (I know, <collective gasp> it just never occurred to me to look on the web and I'm not a convention-goer. You can say "unnerved by thought of running into legendary Klingon-speaking Trekkies/Trekkers" and you would be entirely correct).

Reading about the characters I'd loved as a kid was great fun. Fun to see where RH's imagination took them, the twists and turns of plots, and the sheer creativity of some of the new elements he's brought in. I actually like Apollo better now than I remember. (Oh, for a movie of any of the 1st three books, just for the effects alone... let alone seeing the real guys/gals in character again. Yeah, I know where THAT stands, 'tis a travesty, we can skip the detail on that issue)

Rebellion was the choppiest of the 4 books for me. But that didn't keep me from devouring it at an embarrassingly rapid pace. I reread it just to make sure I didn't confuse myself, before I got the guts to ask you all.

So, anyone want to discuss some questions, theories or whatever in Rebellion?? Is there a way to do that without spoiling it for others here? (Sorry, this newbie is not starting their own thread, at least without knowing one of you regulars is interested. Besides, I'm doing well to post and have a smilie work.) Please let this not be a site that curses us Mac users with gibberish and error! And excuse me if that does happen.

Thanks!
Jewels ;)

Can anyone use the warrior pin symbol? I've always wanted one of those pins....

[Muffit]

Hi jewels! Welcome to Colonial Fleets!!! If you post a new thread under BSG Discussion, I'll bet you will get a bunch of hellos from all of us!

Welcome, welcome!!!

:muffit:

[skippercollecto]

I liked "Rebellion" the least of the series. I purchased it in July, and have just now (Nov. 10) finished it! It was slower going, and harder to read and follow, than the other novels.
This is what I didn't like about the book:
1. The time sequence was really off. I got the impression that what was happening to Apollo in regards to the rebellion, his imprisonment (three times, I think!), the arguments with the council, and the Cylon attack took place in only a week or two's time (or whatever the Colonial equivalent of a week is). And it seemed like the pilots, Dalton, Troy and Trays, et. al., were out in the Ur cloud for only a day or two. Yet what was happening to the other ships on the fleet, with them running out of oxygen and their people starving, seemed to have happened over several weeks' time.
2. In the last novel, Cassiopeia was a doctor. Now she's back to being a med tech.
3. The whole "Rosemary's Baby's" concept is unoriginal.
4. Towards the end of the novel, Apollo says, "Let's roll." Now I realize that this phrase has been around for years, but ever since the events of last year, I will always associate it with Todd Beamer and Sept. 11. I know plenty of other folks have been using the phrase more recently, but to me, it seems rather disrespectful.

This is what I did like:
1. The reform of Baltar.
2. Cassiopeia went to a midwife.
3. Apollo's relationship with Koren.

Newer characters that had been introduced in previous novels and carried over were Dalton, Trays, Gar'Tokk and Valor.
New characters that were introduced in this novel were:
1. Nilsen, senior engineer
2. Dr. Lorrins, physicist
3. Protea, Athena's friend
4. Sire Aron, council member
5. Jinkrat, rebel leader
6. Koren, Jinkrat's son
7. Starjumper, Orgon and Michelangelo, former prisoners
8. Naga, Gar'Tokk's friend.

Mary

[jewels]

Originally posted by skippercollecto
I liked "Rebellion" the least of the series. I purchased it in July, and have just now (Nov. 10) finished it! It was slower going, and harder to read and follow, than the other novels.
This is what I didn't like about the book:
1. The time sequence was really off. I got the impression that what was happening to Apollo in regards to the rebellion, his imprisonment (three times, I think!), the arguments with the council, and the Cylon attack took place in only a week or two's time (or whatever the Colonial equivalent of a week is). And it seemed like the pilots, Dalton, Troy and Trays, et. al., were out in the Ur cloud for only a day or two. Yet what was happening to the other ships on the fleet, with them running out of oxygen and their people starving, seemed to have happened over several weeks' time.
2. In the last novel, Cassiopeia was a doctor. Now she's back to being a med tech.
3. The whole "Rosemary's Baby's" concept is unoriginal.
4. Towards the end of the novel, Apollo says, "Let's roll." Now I realize that this phrase has been around for years, but ever since the events of last year, I will always associate it with Todd Beamer and Sept. 11. I know plenty of other folks have been using the phrase more recently, but to me, it seems rather disrespectful.

This is what I did like:
1. The reform of Baltar.
2. Cassiopeia went to a midwife.
3. Apollo's relationship with Koren.

Mary

Response to your points: I read it twice and I think I figured out the time thing, but it means the Colonials know way more about diagnosing pregnancy (like nearly before the egg's planted itself) than we do! Cassi would be about a week pregnant MAX when she unloads the fact on Apollo.
so point 1) the time frame is about 3-4 days, with the 2 page epilogue glossing over 39 weeks ;) , and they are still in the initial QSE jump began during the battle over Kobol. (The wormhole type thingy broke down because they dragged all the mass of the battle debris with them when they jumped. Hence they are stuck in what I think Stephen Hawking would call a singularity from a wormhole that collapsed in the middle) The Hestia thing happens nearly immediately–shocking to me, was that it only happened to 1 ship. I'm also basing this on the fact that they only had a few days food left, yet did not totally run out, and the ultra-long viper patrols (pilots need to sleep and eat too).

2. Thought Cassi was just shy of being a full Dr. will have to double check that.

3. I was thinking older paradigm than that: Set up for a Mordred vs. King Arthur situation. Point well thought out though.

4. Let's roll. I tolerated that one because I wasn't thinking of the 9-11 context (and the copy was probably written before all of that was completely known by the public. Did you know that that was what Todd used to say to get his & Lisa's kids into the car, btw? Just an everyday phrase he used.)

I like the things you liked!
1) I would call it Baltar's redemption, because he had to be redeemed (freed from Iblis control by someone/something outside himself) to make that kind of change, though he still desires prestige like his old self.

2) Liked midwife, didn't like that it implied that she went through it alone.
If Richard revists, hope he fixes that one aspect. Apollo isn't the type to leave a woman and friend high & dry, even if he is confused.

3) Sensing Koren will be a part of the "Adama extended family" in the next book. Hope I am right.

What bugged me is that the vipers could fly but the other ships were dead in space, and they were critically low on fuel but that didn't stop any Daedelus—Galactica shuttling or shuttle to ship that Jinkrat was on.

Oh, did you notice (I only saw it one place) that Starbuck is now a Colonel? (only saw the one place with a title. Didn't realize his field promo, just before Kobol battle in Resurrection, brought that much rank with it).

Thank you so much for talking about this book!
Jewels

[default]

I loved Rebellion. Although I was suprised to see alot of twists and turns in the book. The day I got it I read most of it that night as my mother was having a health problem and was rushed to the hospital, so I couldn't sleep so I read. Can't wait to see what is pulled out of Richard's bag of tricks next. Michael you can tell him I said that.

[jewels]

My second favorite people twist was the Apollo & Cassi incident in the Celestial Chamber. Not that I really get the Apollo-Cassi relationship thing or why Sheba is so wacky toward Apollo after 20ish years. For what it was, it was a tastefully written scene, just shocked me the 1st time (Apollo actually got the girl for once!!).

[Micheleh]

Just as an FYI for those who don't know- due to a misunderstanding attributable to a miscommunication on the part of the publisher.. (*takes breath*)... the book "Rebellion" was published from the initial draft, (I strongly recall that I was told it was the initial draft) NOT the final draft. So the published version was *not* the actual finished draft.

I hope this will shed soem light on the situation.

[Raymar3d]

Originally posted by Micheleh
Just as an FYI for those who don't know- due to a misunderstanding attributable to a miscommunication on the part of the publisher.. (*takes breath*)... the book "Rebellion" was published from the initial draft, (I strongly recall that I was told it was the initial draft) NOT the final draft. So the published version was *not* the actual finished draft.

I hope this will shed soem light on the situation.

That is exactly right. Richard told me that himself while at a production meeting of "Great War of Magellan." You can be sure he won't give them any early drafts again.

Ken

[captmiloman]

I'd like to see the final draft published as a paperback.

[jewels]

I thought Resurrection was the one that was the rough that got published (memory is such a tricky thing) but that would explain the not quite polished plotting in comparison to the Chris Golden collaborations. And I would trust Ken on which one it was. In either case: were a final draft published as a trade pb I would be straight over to Amazon for a copy.

Hi Micheleh, if you post in discussion or Galactica cafe, you'll get a round of hello's from everyone. Welcome and check out the art (and Ken's website too)

[Micheleh]

Hi, Jewels! Thanks, I will, on both counts! I do some graphic art myself. I'm happy to be here!

[Muffit]

Welcome, welcome Micheleh! Great to have you here! :D

:muffit:

[ojai22]

bump

[kingfish]

I finished the book today. It wasn't bad. I read some awful things about it over at Amazon.com but decided to judge for myself. The biggest flaw in the books is continuity to the timeline of TOS. Apollo and Cassi go to the celestial chamber and it is her first visit. They were all there in The Hand of God episode. Another hard to believe moment is Apollo and Starbuck having a fist fight. I would never have believed this in a million years if I hadn't read it with my own two eyes and I had my glasses on. Baltar is now a good guy was an interesting twist and isn't too hard to fathom since Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is redeemed at the end of Jedi. The two best additions were Koren and Jinkrat who gave some musc needed direction to the story. Jinkrat also is the one who speaks up for the forgotten aboard the rag tag fleet. There is SEX in the book but done with class. Apollo always seemed on edge in this book especially when confronting the Council. This makes him appear human. Many have made mention of Apollo being made into a god and taking center stage(Apollo centric). I think the books do an excellent service to the character more so than the TV series. Most of the episodes were written around the Starbuck character. The one thing that I hope woul;d happen but probably will not, is Dirk writing a BG novel. I would like to see his interpretation of the characters from his viewpoint. I hope I didn't offend anyone with this review of the book.

[jewels]

Offend: no, Kingfish! glad to see your comments!!! Actually: what's your opinion on SkipperC & my's confusion over how long a time the book spans (not including the epilogue which would make it greater than 9 months). I was originally thinking about 4 days to a week (but since found precedence in one of Thurston's novels for a longer patrol being possible) and I believe Mary (SkipperC) was thinking a couple of weeks. What do you think, while it is fresh in your head?
Jewels

[kingfish]

Could the Colonial birthing cycle be shorter than the human birthing cycle? The Colonial Year is shorter than our 365 day year. The only other thing is that since the child isn't human the ordinary birthing cycle is null and void in this case.

[jewels]

I'm excluding the completion of Cassie's pregnancy in this question: just focusing on how much time passes in the main body of the book, from the time they enter the Ur cloud & stop cold, to when they finally break out of it & back into their QSE jump. Paradis will fill in on the gestation time for Cassie's baby, I'm guessing since the book is named after the planet. Does that clarify my question??
----
Interested to see if Hatch expands on Gar Tok's "NO!" when the huge explosion happens--what did he instinctively see about what was about to happen? There is only a slight reference to them having to change their pre-programmed destination point in the jump because something changed.

Jewels

[kingfish]

I think they are stuck in the Ur cloud for a week.