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Old January 30th, 2003, 12:43 PM   #1
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Default Question about the Battle of Cimtar

In the beginning of Battlestar Galactica, there is only 5 Battlestars, according to Larson, in the entire Colonial Fleet. My question is whether or not a surprise attack was really necessary to defeat the Colonials. If the Cylons had an equal number of basestars, yes surprise would be necessary. This does not seem to be the case though. Throughout the series it is inferred that the Cylons have almost limitless resources. What kept the Cylons from launching an overwhelming attack against the Twelve Colonies while 5 battlestars tried to defend 12 planets? The surprise attack only seem to speed up the inevitable which was a Cylon victory.
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Old January 30th, 2003, 01:50 PM   #2
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Colla, the original director of the pilot had a "bigger" vision of the fleet. Repcisg extrapolated it out to be a much larger group of ships from analyzing screen captures from the pilot. He'd be good to talk to, Apothis. It was a very cool thing. Made more sense than Larson's 5 battlestars.
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Old January 30th, 2003, 01:52 PM   #3
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Agreed. I posted a question about how many battlestars were there and I can see several more than five. However the Colla vision did not match up with Larson. Larson version though is the official canon unfortunately. I think several Battlestars would have bee better. The website I was sent about the number of Battlestars based on the scenes shown was I think 23 which far more formidable than 5.
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Old January 30th, 2003, 02:13 PM   #4
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Hi Apothis,

Yours is a question that has been kicking around for many a yaren. The thing is Larson never specified how many Battlestars there were until after the show went off the air. So really the "Cannon" we have is what was put on the screen, and even there, there are conflicts.

For example, in the original US screening of the Battle six ships are named, but in later edited versions only five. During the series, the opening sequence of the pilot was used as part of the opening sequence of each episode, none of the rest of the pilot was used. So for every one of the episodes only five ships were seen each week.

We must remember in 1978-79 this kind of detail was considered a waist of time and detracted from the story, even Star Trek has had these problems, especialy TOS.
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Old January 30th, 2003, 03:06 PM   #5
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Default Cylon Superiority

I think that even with the Cylon's superiority they still felt the need to resort to trickery. As has been shown in many episodes, one Viper "could" take out alot of Raiders before it went down.

This, overused, advantage of unpredictability is what allowed the Colonies to repeatedly keep the Cylon's numbers from winning.

Story-wise the Cylons needed a "surprise" attack to keep the Battlestars, and unmentioned colonial surface bases, from launching their Vipers.

Baltar's "false peace" gave the Cylons the opportunity to get in close before the potent Vipers could interfere. Despite the Galactica launching its Vipers the weight of numbers was simply to much in the Cylons favor.
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Old January 30th, 2003, 03:12 PM   #6
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Does the answer lie with the missing footage which is said to be between 3 and a half to 4 hours long? Sheba's Galaxy does say, the ships that were given designs by the costume department for colonial battlestars were Atlantia, Acropolis, Pacifica, Cerberus, Bellerophon, Columbia, Solaria, Prometheus, Olympia. The Triton was mentioned as a Battlestar regardless of the consant "it's a escort ship" unless i see deleted footage one day i saw no escorts ships of anykind, and why would Larson cut them out if they were meant to be there?

I say the often discussed 4 hours of cut footage is the place to look. Being stuff that didn't get in, was eliminated. Trading cards and photos taken of the pilot do have pictures from "Saga of a Starworld" that have deleted scenes like the "athem scene".

Battlestarfanclub do have a trading card picture of a Viper blowing up near the Galactica? Looks like Zac's Viper, but when Zac Viper blew up you didn't see the Galactica or her sister ships nearby. Maybe it's "Stock footage" reused in Colla cut?

Nice to see you back repcisg how's things?

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Old January 30th, 2003, 05:12 PM   #7
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Hi Lord Kingjason,

Be around, just buried in projects.

The books are coming along much slower than I would like, and I have some new EDF stuff about ready.
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Old January 30th, 2003, 05:59 PM   #8
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Yeah! More great stories coming soon! (sorry but I was enjoying that one you started before Christmas. It was very well done.)
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Old January 31st, 2003, 06:20 AM   #9
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Yes but even Adama during the "Hand of God" mentioned that one Basestar is more than what a typical Battlestar can fight. It was bold action of the Colonials that allowed the Battlestar Galactica to overcome the single Basestar.

Also Commander Cain's action to go after the 3 basestars. Cain being the finest Commander in all the Colonies managed to destroy 2 basestars while Baltar ran away in third.

Also when the Battle of Molokay was mentioned which was one of Cain's defeats, the Colonial fleet was destroyed by a Cylon force.

Also another factor was in "Fire In Space" where a Cylon kamikaze attack can destroy a Battlestar. The Galactica was saved by a miracle but any ordinary crew and commander would have perished.

In various elements of the series, Adama and also Cain infers that Cylons are a dangerous enemy even when it is 3 Basestars versus the 2 Battlestars in Living Legend. Remember Gamoray's fighters were destroyed on the ground so they did not have 4 Basestar strength.

The Cylons were capable of winning despite the fact the stock footage showing the Colonial Warriors blowing them away easily. One of the things I wonder about is how many Cylon Basestars were service of the Cylon Empire.

Last edited by Apothis; February 3rd, 2003 at 01:31 PM..
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Old February 3rd, 2003, 01:18 PM   #10
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Great points made Apothis. Lets not forget Commander Kronus of the Celestra. According to the series history, the "Battlestar Rykon" destroyed Three Cylon Basestars at the battle of Cosmora Archipelago.

Although we were lead to believe, Kronus gathered his remaining forces and assaulted the Cylon forces but destroyed the Rykon in the process. meaning with the right commander at the helm, a Battlestar could even take on three baseships if possible? This destroys Baltar's line from Living Legend about one Battlestar Vs Three Baseships though. If anything Commander Kronus breaks Cain's record of destroying Cylon Baseships even at the loss of his own ship?

If anything a Battlestar's weakness maybe it's overdepenance on Vipers which leads to it's destruction, which is why the Atlantia was obilterated within mintues in the pilot. I do like the fact the series used and showed battle tactics and the military planning involved to attack and carry out assaults within the show.

Man, it would be great to see Richard Hatch's "The Second Coming Battlestar Galactica". Imagine the "SuperCylon Basestars" on the move taking on the Galactica or the Pegasus? Mind boggles at what they would have to do to, to take out a SuperCylon Basestar!!! Compared to the normal baseship it's huge? imagine: The Firepower!, The Fighter contingent?, Resources? Cylon Centurions?


KJ

P.S. Get the BG SC:Trailer on the net already?

Last edited by KJ; February 3rd, 2003 at 02:12 PM..
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Old February 3rd, 2003, 01:39 PM   #11
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I would definitely like to see a Super Cylon Basestar. That would be an incredible war machine.
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Old February 3rd, 2003, 04:31 PM   #12
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I think repcisg earlier post on the cut footage inwhich Larson made cuts to Richard Colla's original work may have all these answers. Thus proving we need a "Battlestar Galactica Special edition DVD boxset" more than ever, this being the 25th year of BG existance!

With all the evidence in fandom and looking back the series had alot of cuts made not only for commericals, but cuts made to speed up the pace of things. Only problem is alot of events leading to the destruction of the 12 Colonies were cut? Why DO we only see 1 colony destroyed (Caprica?) Why only see the survivors on the Gemini shuttle and Rising Star in a very few scenes and focus on the military aspects 95% of the time.

Although because of all these cuts, we did get to see more of Serina in "The Lost Planet of the Gods" who was brought back for that memorable two parter! There were more Battlestars! as was originally planned with all the names of them that have come to light in fandom. But seems Larson moved things along too fast and alot of the other elements were dropped.

KJ

P.S.

Go back and look at the editing style and see how scenes end or are cut off before more dialogue is said or scenes continue onwards? Some hint at more that was meant to be said or seen onscreen!
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Old February 4th, 2003, 06:35 AM   #13
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Default Larson never had any love for the show

When given the opportunity to resurrect it following his success with Buck Rogers, he catered to what the network wanted and that became Galactica 1980. If Larson loved the show, he would never had allowed such a compromise to take place especially when he had clout back then.
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Old February 4th, 2003, 12:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Apothis

In various elements of the series, Adama and also Cain infers that Cylons are a dangerous enemy even when it is 3 Basestars versus the 2 Battlestars in Living Legend. Remember Gamoray's fighters were destroyed on the ground so they did not have 4 Basestar strength.

The Cylons were capable of winning despite the fact the stock footage showing the Colonial Warriors blowing them away easily. One of the things I wonder about is how many Cylon Basestars were service of the Cylon Empire.
The Galactica and the Pegasus were held back due to the fact that they were protecting a civillian fleet.
And in the end the Cylons failed at Gomoray.
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Old February 4th, 2003, 12:45 PM   #15
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Yes the Cylons failed due to the capable leadership of Adama and Cain. But in Molokay, the Cylons were victorious. In the Hand of God, Adama speaks of a one one battle with a Basestar as suicide without having to protect the fleet. It was Apollo and Starbuck's boldness that save the day. Without it, the Galactica would have been destroyed by a sole Basestar according to Adama's view of the situation.

Don't forget that when the Pegasus went to engage the 3 Cylon Basestars, Cain did not have a civilian fleet to protect. He successfully destroyed 2 Cylon Basestars with the help of Apollo and Starbuck taking out the missile launchers. Baltar escaped in the third basestar. What is inferred is that without Apollo and Starbuck attacking the missile launchers on the Basestars, this would have led to the Pegasus's destruction.

Regarding Gomoray, it was a Colonial victory but like Adama said, they can never hold the planet. It was at best a hit-and-run victory without any staggering consequences to the Cylon war machine. If Adama was foolish enough to try and hold Gomoray, it would have led to a Colonial annhilation.

Only through bold actions and surprise were the Colonials able to destroy Basestars. Apparently, a Basestar could vanquish a Battlestar in a one-on-one duel and that is evident in the words of Adama and even Cain. Cain was defeated at Molokay and Cain's victories after Molokay were hit and runs. They were not offensives that led to recapture of planets or major defeats to the Cylon war machine. They were just pinpricks to the Cylon Empire.

Last edited by Apothis; February 4th, 2003 at 01:02 PM..
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Old February 4th, 2003, 01:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Apothis
Yes the Cylons failed due to the capable leadership of Adama and Cain. But in Molokay, the Cylons were victorious. In the Hand of God, Adama speaks of a one one battle with a Basestar as suicide without having to protect the fleet. It was Apollo and Starbuck's boldness that save the day. Without it, the Galactica would have been destroyed by a sole Basestar according to Adama's view of the situation.
In Molecay, the Cylons were victorious, but we never knew how many baseships they had -- or how many battlestars the Colonials had.


Quote:
Don't forget that when the Pegasus went to engage the 3 Cylon Basestars, Cain did not have a civilian fleet to protect. He successfully destroyed 2 Cylon Basestars with the help of Apollo and Starbuck taking out the missile launchers. Baltar escaped in the third basestar. What is inferred is that without Apollo and Starbuck attacking the missile launchers on the Basestars, this would have led to the Pegasus's destruction.
The Pegasus went to face the baseships without its viper squadrons. This was likely not standard practice before Cimtar. Furthermore, the Pegasus had been vigorously attacked by the Cylon fighters before it faced the baseships.

Quote:
Regarding Gomoray, it was a Colonial victory but like Adama said, they can never hold the planet. It was at best a hit-and-run victory without any staggering consequences to the Cylon war machine. If Adama was foolish enough to try and hold Gomoray, it would have led to a Colonial annhilation.
Yes, because he had the civillian fleet to protect.

Quote:
Only through bold actions and surprise were the Colonials able to destroy Basestars. Apparently, a Basestar could vanquish a Battlestar in a one-on-one duel and that is evident in the words of Adama and even Cain. Cain was defeated at Molokay and Cain's victories after Molokay were hit and runs. They were not offensives that led to recapture of planets or major to the Cylons. They were just pinpricks to the Cylon Empire.
This is just my interpretation, but I have always understood that the Fifth Fleet which was destroyed in Molecay was comprised of many more ships than the Pegasus (otherwise, how could it have escaped unnoticed?) When the battle was over, the Pegasus was left isolated from the colonies, with lack of fuel, possibly with structural damage and a reduced crew. And still she was able to survive off of the raids on Gomoray.
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Old February 4th, 2003, 01:23 PM   #17
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QUOTE form Afan2:
The Pegasus went to face the baseships without its viper squadrons. This was likely not standard practice before Cimtar. Furthermore, the Pegasus had been vigorously attacked by the Cylon fighters before it faced the baseships.
-----

From the reaction that Adama gave and even Cain, this was not a standard battle tactic. Remember, Cain told Adama that he would turn away at the last moment when they planned it. It was Cain's own initiative to attack the Cylon Basestars.

The other clue that this is not a standard tactic that usually led to an easy win, is the reaction of everyone from Apollo to Starbuck to Adama and even Sheba when they realized Cain was going to attack the Basestars alone.

Adama says it best in Hand of God while admiring the Cylon Basestar lethality. A single Battlestar is no match to a single Basestar. Once again a reference that this is not a standard tactic.

----

QUOTE form Afan2:Yes, because he had the civillian fleet to protect.
----

If they could have settled the planet, there would be no need for the fleet. However capturing a planet was not the kind of military victory the Colonials were capable of. Best the Colonials could hope for was continued hit and run victories.

-----

QUOTE form Afan2:
This is just my interpretation, but I have always understood that the Fifth Fleet which was destroyed in Molecay was comprised of many more ships than the Pegasus (otherwise, how could it have escaped unnoticed?) When the battle was over, the Pegasus was left isolated from the colonies, with lack of fuel, possibly with structural damage and a reduced crew. And still she was able to survive off of the raids on Gomoray
-----

Only because the Cylons did not know that it was a Battlestar leading the attacks. They probably thought it was space pirates. During those hit and run raids on Gomoray, Cain did not face a Cylon Basestar.

Remember even Baltar was suprised when a second Battletar appeared. The Cylons had no inkling it was a Battlestar. If they did, they would have deployed a force to Gomoray to destroy the single Battlestar before the arrival of the Galactica.

Last edited by Apothis; February 4th, 2003 at 01:32 PM..
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Old February 4th, 2003, 01:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Apothis
[B]
From the reaction that Adama gave and even Cain, this was not a standard battle tactic. Remember, Cain told Adama that he would turn away at the last moment when they planned it. It was Cain's own initiative to attack the Cylon Basestars.

The other clue that this is not a standard tactic that usually was an easy win, is the reaction of everyone from Apollo to Starbuck to Adama and even Sheba when they realized Cain was going to attack the Basestars alone.
Exactly.

Quote:
Afan2:Yes, because he had the civillian fleet to protect.
----

If they could have settled the planet, there would be no need for the fleet. However capturing a planet was not the kind of military victory the Colonials were capable of. Best the Colonials could hope for was continued hit and run victories.


Although the Cylon defenses in the Gomoray land base were neutralized by the two battlestars, there would still be Cylons on the planet. Could Adama afford to risk a guerrilla war on the ground, while the civillians were left unprotected? And could he win it before the Cylons sent other baseships to regain Gomoray? I find that doubtful.

Quote:
QUOTE form Afan2:
This is just my interpretation, but I have always understood that the Fifth Fleet which was destroyed in Molecay was comprised of many more ships than the Pegasus (otherwise, how could it have escaped unnoticed?) When the battle was over, the Pegasus was left isolated from the colonies, with lack of fuel, possibly with structural damage and a reduced crew. And still she was able to survive off of the raids on Gomoray
-----

Only because the Cylons did not know that it was a Battlestar leading the attacks. They probably thought it was space pirates. During those hit and run raids on Gomoray, Cain did not face a Cylon Basestar.
Which doesn't necessarily mean that he couldn't have...
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Old February 5th, 2003, 06:32 AM   #19
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Default Watched Living Legend last night

Quote by Afan2:
Although the Cylon defenses in the Gomoray land base were neutralized by the two battlestars, there would still be Cylons on the planet. Could Adama afford to risk a guerrilla war on the ground, while the civillians were left unprotected? And could he win it before the Cylons sent other baseships to regain Gomoray? I find that doubtful.
----

I agree. When Cain spoke of taking Gamoray, I was glad Adama was the voice of reason when he said this feat was impossible. The Outer Capital of the Cylon Empire would not be held long, especially when the Cylons muster an entirely fleet of Basestars.

------
quote:
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QUOTE form Afan2:
This is just my interpretation, but I have always understood that the Fifth Fleet which was destroyed in Molecay was comprised of many more ships than the Pegasus (otherwise, how could it have escaped unnoticed?) When the battle was over, the Pegasus was left isolated from the colonies, with lack of fuel, possibly with structural damage and a reduced crew. And still she was able to survive off of the raids on Gomoray
-----

Only because the Cylons did not know that it was a Battlestar leading the attacks. They probably thought it was space pirates. During those hit and run raids on Gomoray, Cain did not face a Cylon Basestar.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from Afans2:
Which doesn't necessarily mean that he couldn't have...
------

Actually watching the dialogue between the Pegasus viper pilots and the Galactican pilots. The Pegasus pilots had no problems bragging about their feats. Attacking Gamoray and taking supplies seems to be what they were proudest of. If they destroyed a Basestar, Bojay and his cohorts would have been bragging about that.

Another clue that Pegasus had not met real resistance is when Cain was talking to Adama and mentioned that he could never figure out why he had not encountered stronger Cylon opposition. He tells Adama that he heard of some rebel fleet giving the Cylons problems which he assumed is why he was able to operate without a stronger Cylon military force in the area.
------------------

After watching "Living Legend" again, I was wondering what in the world the Imperious Leader's Basestar was doing throughout the Colonial assualt. He arrived in a Basestar but that Basestar does not engage the Galactica and Pegasus. Also it does not aid in the defense of Gamoray or providing support for Baltar.

Following up that even Cain knew that a Basestar was more than a match for a Battlestar, one just has to see how Cain analyzes the situation when he made the decision to attack. Cain, remember, is a very brash and highly confident leader. If he was sure that a miltary victory against the Basestars would be easy, he would not have remarked to Adama, that this would be his final action and he did not want it to be an act of mutiny. Cain thought he would die. That is why he sent Cassie and Sheba along with the wounded off the Pegasus. He knew he would die and Cassie even remarked that. Also Sheba agreed with Cassie's judgement. Once again, it was Starbuck and Apollo disobeying orders and destroying the missile launchers on the two Basestars that led to a positive conclusion. Without their action, the Basestars would have destroyed the Pegasus.

Also following up the debate regarding that one Basestar was more than a match for one Battlestar, one can just watch the end of Saga of a Star World. The Galactica and her fighters wiped out the Basestar's fighters but yet Adama chooses not to go after the Basestar. He would prefer to have the Basestar track their movement than engage a Basestar without fighters. Adama is a brave warrior so this was not an act of cowardice. He just knew that from previous battles that Basestars were better ship-to-ship platforms than a Battlestar. Once again, it was an unconventional attack led by Starbuck and Apollo that led to the destruction of the Basestar.
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Old February 5th, 2003, 07:02 AM   #20
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Default Re: Watched Living Legend last night

Quote:
Originally posted by Apothis

QUOTE form Afan2:
This is just my interpretation, but I have always understood that the Fifth Fleet which was destroyed in Molecay was comprised of many more ships than the Pegasus (otherwise, how could it have escaped unnoticed?) When the battle was over, the Pegasus was left isolated from the colonies, with lack of fuel, possibly with structural damage and a reduced crew. And still she was able to survive off of the raids on Gomoray
-----

Only because the Cylons did not know that it was a Battlestar leading the attacks. They probably thought it was space pirates. During those hit and run raids on Gomoray, Cain did not face a Cylon Basestar.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from Afans2:
Which doesn't necessarily mean that he couldn't have...
------

Actually watching the dialogue between the Pegasus viper pilots and the Galactican pilots. The Pegasus pilots had no problems bragging about their feats. Attacking Gamoray and taking supplies seems to be what they were proudest of. If they destroyed a Basestar, Bojay and his cohorts would have been bragging about that.
I didn’t make myself clear. I didn’t mean to suggest that the Pegasus had fought with a baseship after the Battle of Molecay. I never thought it did.
What I meant was that if it had been forced to battle a baseship, it might have been able to handle it.

Quote:
After watching "Living Legend" again, I was wondering what in the world the Imperious Leader's Basestar was doing throughout the Colonial assualt. He arrived in a Basestar but that Basestar does not engage the Galactica and Pegasus. Also it does not aid in the defense of Gamoray or providing support for Baltar.
The Imperious Leader’s baseship does not show up in the standard version of The Living Legend, and there is no indication of how he travelled to Gomoray. In other words, there may have not been a baseship around.



Quote:
Following up that even Cain knew that a Basestar was more than a match for a Battlestar, one just has to see how Cain analyzes the situation when he made the decision to attack. Cain, remember, is a very brash and highly confident leader. If he was sure that a miltary victory against the Basestars would be easy, he would not have remarked to Adama, that this would be his final action and he did not want it to be an act of mutiny. Cain thought he would die. That is why he sent Cassie and Sheba along with the wounded off the Pegasus. He knew he would die and Cassie even remarked that. Also Sheba agreed with Cassie's judgement.
Even assuming that one battlestar was a match – or even had some advantage over – a baseship, in Cain’s case it was one against three!
Besides, Cain was no doubt aware that he would not have the support of his vipers when engaging the baseships, whereas the Cylons would be able to spare some fighters and attack the Pegasus before it reached the baseships. The circumstances would put the Pegasus in a disadvantage, not its abilities.

Quote:
Once again, it was Starbuck and Apollo disobeying orders and destroying the missile launchers on the two Basestars that led to a positive conclusion. Without their action, the Basestars would have destroyed the Pegasus.
We don’t know that for certain. The help of the two vipers made things a bit easier for the Pegasus (and may have allowed it to survive the battle, who knows?), but it’s admissible that the Pegasus would have succeeded alone as well. Surely, Cain wouldn’t have embarked in a hopeless attack.

Quote:
Also following up the debate regarding that one Basestar was more than a match for one Battlestar, one can just watch the end of Saga of a Star World. The Galactica and her fighters wiped out the Basestar's fighters but yet Adama chooses not to go after the Basestar. He would prefer to have the Basestar track their movement than engage a Basestar without fighters. Adama is a brave warrior so this was not an act of cowardice. He just knew that from previous battles that Basestars were better ship-to-ship platforms than a Battlestar. Once again, it was an unconventional attack led by Starbuck and Apollo that led to the destruction of the Basestar.
In Saga of a Star World, Adama was probably more concerned with protecting the fleet from the fighters, and getting everyone out of Carrillon so that they could escape as soon as possible.
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Old February 5th, 2003, 07:33 AM   #21
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Quote from Afan2:
I didn’t make myself clear. I didn’t mean to suggest that the Pegasus had fought with a baseship after the Battle of Molecay. I never thought it did.
What I meant was that if it had been forced to battle a baseship, it might have been able to handle it.
----------------------
Thanks for the clarification

-----------
Quote from Afan2:
The Imperious Leader’s baseship does not show up in the standard version of The Living Legend, and there is no indication of how he travelled to Gomoray. In other words, there may have not been a baseship around.
---------------
The version put out by Thrillsmedia on DVD, "Living Legend"Extended version has the scene with the Basestar landing on Gamoray. I believe this version combines the telemovie and the standard versions together.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...&category=2307

Obviously this means that in one version, Imperious Leader does arrive via Basestar. What happened to the Basestar?
----------------------------
Quote from Afan2:
In Saga of a Star World, Adama was probably more concerned with protecting the fleet from the fighters, and getting everyone out of Carrillon so that they could escape as soon as possible.
------------

The only problem with that military logic is the same one Cain pointed out in Living Legend. With the Basestar surviving, it could track the whereabouts of the Galactica and her fleet till reinforcements arrive. Thus creating a more dangerous military scenario.

The wisest move for a military commander is to attack an enemy when it is weakiest. The Cylon Basestar no longer had fighters and the Galactica did. However Adama did not want to press the attack because he was not confident with the outcome.

Also once again during the "Hand of God", Adama comments about the lethality of a Basestar and how a Battlestar is no match one-on-one. That is why the infiltration plan came to being.
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Old February 5th, 2003, 11:58 AM   #22
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Quote:

The version put out by Thrillsmedia on DVD, "Living Legend"Extended version has the scene with the Basestar landing on Gamoray. I believe this version combines the telemovie and the standard versions together.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...8&category=2307

Obviously this means that in one version, Imperious Leader does arrive via Basestar. What happened to the Basestar?
That’s interesting.
However, I may be mistaken, but I believe that the official versions of The Living Legend do not have this scene.
The scene did show up in one of those messy crossover VHS tapes that Universal put out in the eighties, named Mission Galactica: The Cylon Attack, which was made up of bits and pieces of The Living Legend and Fire in Space.
See
here. Scroll down to:

Quote:
The Cylon Imperious Leader, voice by Patrick Macnee, appears for the last time in this episode (…) the Leader's arrival suggests even more Cylon forces would be on hand for the Imperious escort? There could be yet another baseship in the area (this was shown in the MISSION GALACTICA telemovie) which would raise the Cylon firepower to five baseships!
In any case, assuming that the Leader’s baseship was present, the leader might have been wounded during the attack, and he might need urgent medical care. Gomoray didn’t seem safe at the time.

Quote:

----------------------------
Quote from Afan2:
In Saga of a Star World, Adama was probably more concerned with protecting the fleet from the fighters, and getting everyone out of Carrillon so that they could escape as soon as possible.
------------

The only problem with that military logic is the same one Cain pointed out in Living Legend. With the Basestar surviving, it could track the whereabouts of the Galactica and her fleet till reinforcements arrive. Thus creating a more dangerous military scenario.
I don’t agree with this. Adama was not leading a military fleet. There were civillian ships to be put into the equation as well. It wasn’t a normal battle scenario.
And we don’t really know if the baseship would be able to track down the fleet. If (as was implied, in my opinion), the ragtag fleet possessed some kind of star drive, then it seems an acceptable premise that once you manage to jump into hyperspace no one can track you down (this is a pretty common premise in science fiction).

Quote:
The wisest move for a military commander is to attack an enemy when it is weakiest. The Cylon Basestar no longer had fighters and the Galactica did. However Adama did not want to press the attack because he was not confident with the outcome.
Except that in this case the Galactica was the weakest. Some of its vipers were still coming back from Carrillon, others were busy defending the civillian ships, and the Colonials had been caught by surprise. It’s a different situation from The Living Legend.

Quote:
Also once again during the "Hand of God", Adama comments about the lethality of a Basestar and how a Battlestar is no match one-on-one. That is why the infiltration plan came to being.
I did not remember that statement. I can’t comment on it without knowing the context in which it is made.
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Old February 5th, 2003, 12:14 PM   #23
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Quote from Afan:
I don’t agree with this. Adama was not leading a military fleet. There were civillian ships to be put into the equation as well. It wasn’t a normal battle scenario.
And we don’t really know if the baseship would be able to track down the fleet. If (as was implied, in my opinion), the ragtag fleet possessed some kind of star drive, then it seems an acceptable premise that once you manage to jump into hyperspace no one can track you down (this is a pretty common premise in science fiction).
-----
Which is precisely why destroying the Basestar is important. Even Cain said in Living Legend that a Basestar could track the fleet if allowed to survive. Also regarding the star drive theory, there are many references that the civilian vessels slowed the progress of the fleet throughout the show. A Basestar and a Battlestar could easily outrun a civilian ship from what even Cain, Adama, Apollo, and Starbuck pointed out about the rag tag fleet.
------

Quote from Afan:
Except that in this case the Galactica was the weakest. Some of its vipers were still coming back from Carrillon, others were busy defending the civillian ships, and the Colonials had been caught by surprise. It’s a different situation from The Living Legend.
--------
I agree. A Battlestar is not a match for a Basestar in a ship-to-ship battle. That has been acknowledge by Adama in "Hand of God". However, it was the best possible time to attack. All the fighters of the Cylon Basestar were destroyed and even Imperious Leader acknowledges this. Adama however did not want to risk the Galactica's destruction in a ship-to-ship duel with the fighterless Basestar. Watch "Hand of God" again and you will see what I am talking about. Why else would Starbuck and Apollo's mission be necessary if a Battlestar could easily destroy a sole Basestar.
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Old February 5th, 2003, 02:56 PM   #24
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Seems you've both forgotten about Commander Kronus, battle at Cosmora inwhich he destroyed Three Cylon Basestars!

Yes, the knowledge of events of that battle or Molocay aren't known but are both considered "Battlestar Galactica Canon" in the BG universe. If so, then Kronus victory even at the loss of his own ship should be taken into consideration.

Cain destroyed two basestars by locking missles at point blank range, with help from two Vipers which knocked out their missle firing capabilities.

The Galactica destroyed one Basestar by knocking out it's scanners by covert intrusion (Apollo and Starbuck) thus the element of surprise gave the Galactica the first strike and lowered serious losses of lives on the Colonials part. (Military Commanders must take into account how many lives will be loss in any serious encounter with a strong enemy? )

The Rykon and who knows how many fleet Ships/Vipers? helped Kronus destroy three attacking Baseships at the loss of his own ship. but it was said by Adama himself! so it must be taken into account!

Lets not forget two Vipers by Apollo and Starbuck, tricked a Baseship into low orbit above Carillion, only to be destroyed by the exploding planet! Colonial enginuity (Quick thinking) i suppose?

Tally that all up and i suppose Battlestars can hang with baseships. They are more manuverable, quicker. Baseships are more bulkier, slower but more powerful in the firepower department and have more fighter ships handy 300 to a Battlestars full bay of 150 Vipers at maximum?! In the series the Galactica was at half strength untill Living Legend/Hand of God Adama's line of outgunned 2 to 1?

That's my unbias opinion based on the facts in the TV show!

KJ
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Old February 6th, 2003, 01:44 PM   #25
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Quote:
Quote from Afan:
I don’t agree with this. Adama was not leading a military fleet. There were civillian ships to be put into the equation as well. It wasn’t a normal battle scenario.
-----
Which is precisely why destroying the Basestar is important. Even Cain said in Living Legend that a Basestar could track the fleet if allowed to survive.
Quote:

However, it was the best possible time to attack. All the fighters of the Cylon Basestar were destroyed and even Imperious Leader acknowledges this. Adama however did not want to risk the Galactica's destruction in a ship-to-ship duel with the fighterless Basestar.
I still think that the risk was too great. It wasn’t just about the Galactica. There was the civillian fleet to consider, the last surviving humans beings from all of the Twelve Colonies. You don’t jeopardize what’s left of mankind just to achieve a military victory.

Quote:
Why else would Starbuck and Apollo's mission be necessary if a Battlestar could easily destroy a sole Basestar.
I kind of agree with Kingjason’s explanation.

Quote:
Also regarding the star drive theory, there are many references that the civilian vessels slowed the progress of the fleet throughout the show. A Basestar and a Battlestar could easily outrun a civilian ship from what even Cain, Adama, Apollo, and Starbuck pointed out about the rag tag fleet.
Do you maintain that the civillian ships in the fleet had no star drive?

Quote:
Watch "Hand of God" again and you will see what I am talking about.
I wish I could…
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Old February 6th, 2003, 01:51 PM   #26
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Afan Quote:
I still think that the risk was too great. It wasn’t just about the Galactica. There was the civillian fleet to consider, the last surviving humans beings from all of the Twelve Colonies. You don’t jeopardize what’s left of mankind just to achieve a military victory.
============
But leaving a Basestar to stalk you to reinforcements arrive is more dangerous.
============
Afan Quote:
I kind of agree with Kingjason’s explanation.
==========
So do I but, Commander Kronus battle with Cylons led to the destruction of his Battlestar and his ally like KJ mentioned. Still Cylons were a worthy adversary.
============
Afan Quote:
Do you maintain that the civillian ships in the fleet had no star drive?
============
No but not faster than a Cylon Basestar. It makes sense that a warship that is made for interstellar can outrun a civilian ship design to travel interplanetary. Cain and Adama even mention that the fleet drags due to the slowest ships in the fleet.

Btw Afan, it's nice to have discussion about the show for a change. The scifi.com forum has become troll haven.
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Old February 6th, 2003, 02:29 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Apothis
Afan Quote:
I still think that the risk was too great. It wasn’t just about the Galactica. There was the civillian fleet to consider, the last surviving humans beings from all of the Twelve Colonies. You don’t jeopardize what’s left of mankind just to achieve a military victory.
============
But leaving a Basestar to stalk you to reinforcements arrive is more dangerous.
============
That’s assuming you can’t lose the baseship.

Quote:

Afan Quote:
Do you maintain that the civillian ships in the fleet had no star drive?
============
No but not faster than a Cylon Basestar. It makes sense that a warship that is made for interstellar can outrun a civilian ship design to travel interplanetary. Cain and Adama even mention that the fleet drags due to the slowest ships in the fleet.
If they did have a star drive, it’s at least reasonable to accept that they could lose any baseship as soon as they jumped into hyperspace.

Quote:
Afan Quote:
I kind of agree with Kingjason’s explanation.
==========
So do I but, Commander Kronus battle with Cylons led to the destruction of his Battlestar and his ally like KJ mentioned. Still Cylons were a worthy adversary.
============
Do we know how many battlestars were on the fleet that the Rycon belonged to?

Anyway, I was thinking more of this part of Kingjason’s reply:

Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Kingjason The Galactica destroyed one Basestar by knocking out it's scanners by covert intrusion (Apollo and Starbuck) thus the element of surprise gave the Galactica the first strike and lowered serious losses of lives on the Colonials part. (Military Commanders must take into account how many lives will be loss in any serious encounter with a strong enemy? )
Quote:
Btw Afan, it's nice to have discussion about the show for a change. The scifi.com forum has become troll haven.
Yeah, I hadn’t gone there in the last day or so, and I only realised it now.
But, if you ask me, it’s more like a playground for one or two lonely souls. Oh, well. They’ll grow up and finish kindergarten some day, hopefully…
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Old February 25th, 2003, 10:23 AM   #28
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Default Why didn't the Cylons just take out the colonies?

I have read in the BSG novels that the Cylons were hurting for Imperious-Leaders. Adama was hated by the IL in the first novel. Adama had taken out at least 3 to 5 by the time of the pilot episode.
Not to mention they lost several in bold attacks on the fleet. The Cylons were hurting.
The Gun on Ice planet Zero said that they lost another IL on that planet. The leadership was hurting bad. They probably lost another in the last episode when the Galactica took out that basestar.
You say that the Pegasus only did pin pricks to the Cylons, I have read, & come to the conclusion that maybe the Cylons were not as well off at that point of the war. With the lack of leadership, they were forced to use trickery.

I wrote a letter the other day about how many battlestars there were. If the fleet at Cimtar was 5 battlestars( plus escorts), Then at the time of Molecay there must have been at least 25 battlestars, for baojay said the 5th-fleet set sail for Molecay over two yahrens ago. I think there were 12 battlestars at Cimtar (one for each colony). The episodes never tell the whole story.

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Old February 25th, 2003, 11:15 AM   #29
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Ouch!
I feel much pain in your post.
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Old February 26th, 2003, 10:38 AM   #30
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Default Want to talk more.

I would like to talk to you more. I am new to the 3dg, I love the sites. You are the first response to my posting. What did you think of my findings. Do you agree, or disagree. I want some of your imput. I would enjoy talking about BSG. What was your job? You said you had responsibility to the material and its source. Just trying to stike up some conversation.

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