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Old September 19th, 2011, 04:22 PM   #31
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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It's not the refit-Enterprise for sure, but what was so wrong with it?
It was okay IMO. Like the refit was okay for me back in the day. But honestly, radical redesign is really unnecessary. Original Enterprise with slight tweaks (think remastered Trek eps) would have worked fine for TMP.
But then, I also think that the design of Galactica in the new series absolutely sucked.

Iconic stuff needs more than a designer's nod.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 07:29 PM   #32
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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I liked the new movie just fine, story-wise.

The designs I didn't care for though.

This was an alternate timeline, yes. But when did it diverge? Certainly not when the Romulans appeared during Kirk's dad's time, because his ship was more "advanced" than the classic "E".

I'd have LOVED to have seen the classic "E" on the big screen, even just once.

This movie was too bright/shiny on the "E" bridge, etc. That was my main prob with t.

Haha....some folk thought the bridge was designed by Apple.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 08:22 PM   #33
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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Haha....some folk thought the bridge was designed by Apple.
It had the look of an iPod store, that ship did.
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Old September 19th, 2011, 08:32 PM   #34
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It had the look of an iPod store, that ship did.
Hope it has some great apps.
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Old September 20th, 2011, 12:46 AM   #35
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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Worse than 5??

Now come on, that's just crazy talk



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Old September 20th, 2011, 12:57 AM   #36
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

The thing I dislike about the design.

The secondary hull design.
The Warp Engine nacelles.
It look like its lost all its gracefulness.

its just ugly or fugly as one of my friends call it. who has modeled the classic Enterprise many time in Truespace.

It possibly my biggest dislike at the end of the day
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Old September 20th, 2011, 05:32 AM   #37
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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I liked the new movie just fine, story-wise.

The designs I didn't care for though.

This was an alternate timeline, yes. But when did it diverge? Certainly not when the Romulans appeared during Kirk's dad's time, because his ship was more "advanced" than the classic "E".

I'd have LOVED to have seen the classic "E" on the big screen, even just once.

This movie was too bright/shiny on the "E" bridge, etc. That was my main prob with t.
The timeline divergence began with Vulcan's destruction. Prior to that, Nero and Spock had travelled back in time, from the future so that Nero could exact revenge on Ambassador Spock, for his apparent miscalculations regarding the supernova/black hole, which led to the destruction of Romulus. The film didn't state precisely when their actual appearances took place but, that was all preliminary. All essentially remained the same until Vulcan's destruction.

The following paragraph, from Wikipedia, summarizes it nicely:

As Nero tortures Pike to gain access to Earth's perimeter defenses, Kirk is stranded on Delta Vega after arguing against Spock's orders. Kirk encounters Ambassador Spock, who explains that he and Nero are from the future. The galaxy is threatened by a volatile supernova 129 years into the future. Spock intended to use the "red matter" to create a black hole to stop the supernova, but failed to stop the supernova's blast from destroying the planet Romulus, killing Nero's wife and family. The Narada attacked Spock's vessel, and both were caught in the event horizon of the black hole, sending them back in time. Nero captured Spock and stranded him on Delta Vega to watch Vulcan's destruction.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_(film)
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Old September 20th, 2011, 07:28 AM   #38
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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The timeline divergence began with Vulcan's destruction. Prior to that, Nero and Spock had travelled back in time, from the future so that Nero could exact revenge on Ambassador Spock, for his apparent miscalculations regarding the supernova/black hole, which led to the destruction of Romulus. The film didn't state precisely when their actual appearances took place but, that was all preliminary. All essentially remained the same until Vulcan's destruction.

The following paragraph, from Wikipedia, summarizes it nicely:

As Nero tortures Pike to gain access to Earth's perimeter defenses, Kirk is stranded on Delta Vega after arguing against Spock's orders. Kirk encounters Ambassador Spock, who explains that he and Nero are from the future. The galaxy is threatened by a volatile supernova 129 years into the future. Spock intended to use the "red matter" to create a black hole to stop the supernova, but failed to stop the supernova's blast from destroying the planet Romulus, killing Nero's wife and family. The Narada attacked Spock's vessel, and both were caught in the event horizon of the black hole, sending them back in time. Nero captured Spock and stranded him on Delta Vega to watch Vulcan's destruction.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_(film)
No - the timeline diverges as Nero emerged from the singularity for the first time and destroyed the Kelvin and George Kirk. Then he went into hiding until Spock emerged, 20-some years later. Vulcan isn't destroyed until the end of the movie.

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Old September 20th, 2011, 08:27 AM   #39
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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No - the timeline diverges as Nero emerged from the singularity for the first time and destroyed the Kelvin and George Kirk. Then he went into hiding until Spock emerged, 20-some years later. Vulcan isn't destroyed until the end of the movie.
John -

That's when Kirk's timeline changed because he grew up without his father, but as for the other changes (the ship, uniforms, and just about everything else) that event couldn't change that much. You also have to consider that how things looked in George Kirk's day, were pretty different as to how they should have appeared in the original Trek universe. I think that this is one of the things that bothers me a lot about the story in this film. If you scrutinize it, even just a little bit, it all falls apart. I know that in the end, it's just a story that someone banged out on a keyboard, but it's not the best that they could've come up with. There are so many plot holes in it, it's like swiss cheese with characters and a starship in it.

If I'm honest, if they really wanted to do something new and interesting with Trek, they could have stuck with the exploits of George Kirk in his era (obviously without him getting killed) and started a whole other Trek film franchise with new and original stories instead of trying to re-tread the original to cater to an iPod generation.

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Old September 20th, 2011, 10:02 AM   #40
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

Well, yeah, considering that it was Nero who destroyed the Kelvin, I would agree that that event would have been the starting point. I was thinking that the Kelvin was lost, in either timeline so, this particular event didn't really have a significant effect on the original timeline, based on the information that we have to work with.
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Old September 20th, 2011, 10:08 AM   #41
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

Bryan,

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment about the style and appearance of equipment and other things on the ship. That's part of the problem that I had with Enterprise as well -- it looked more modern than the original TOS Enterprise. In the case of the new movie, it was supposed to be of the same timeframe as TOS and the ship still had the feel of being more modern. Plus, I hated all the white background, white lights, etc. Incredibly too antiseptic for my taste.
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Old September 20th, 2011, 02:52 PM   #42
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

Admittedly, even though the classic Enterprise bridge looked GREAT on the small screen when resurrected for episodes like "Relics" in TNG, or "Through a Mirror Darkly" (the awesome two-part Star Trek Enterprise episode), I doubt it would've looked all that great on the big screen.

As for the Enterprise herself, even if she were to maintain her original look, they would've still had to add some kind of extra hull detailing to it, just so it would look believable on the big screen. That's why they gave her the "refit" look for The Motion Picture (even though the refit was intended for the ill-fated "Star Trek Phase II" TV project). But even if she retained her generally original TV series look, someone would've complained about the "extra hull detailing" or whatever other cosmetic changes occurred, ignorant of the fact that the makers HAD to do something to make the original E look acceptable on the big screen.

There are some folks who bemoan even the Motion Picture refit Enterprise, favoring the original TV series version.
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Old September 20th, 2011, 02:54 PM   #43
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Admittedly, even though the classic Enterprise bridge looked GREAT on the small screen when resurrected for episodes like "Relics" in TNG, or "Through a Mirror Darkly" (the awesome two-part Star Trek Enterprise episode), I doubt it would've looked all that great on the big screen.


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Old September 20th, 2011, 04:16 PM   #44
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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There are some folks who bemoan even the Motion Picture refit Enterprise, favoring the original TV series version.
I do not bemoan, I merely regret that the Enterprise was not simply 'dressed up' instead of fully refit.
That said, I DO like the refit. A lot.
I even like the JJPrise. Pretty much. Mostly.

But original E is still the best!
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Old September 20th, 2011, 04:26 PM   #45
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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Admittedly, even though the classic Enterprise bridge looked GREAT on the small screen when resurrected for episodes like "Relics" in TNG, or "Through a Mirror Darkly" (the awesome two-part Star Trek Enterprise episode), I doubt it would've looked all that great on the big screen.
You ever seen it on a huge flat screen TV? It looks great Looking at it on a theater screen wouldn't be much different, given how far from the screen you sit.
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Old September 20th, 2011, 04:35 PM   #46
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You ever seen it on a huge flat screen TV? It looks great Looking at it on a theater screen wouldn't be much different, given how far from the screen you sit.
I saw "The Menagerie" on as big screen at a convention once- it was AWESOME.
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Old September 20th, 2011, 04:43 PM   #47
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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There are some folks who bemoan even the Motion Picture refit Enterprise, favoring the original TV series version.
Steve -

Although the original series Enterprise is indeed the most popular, you'd be surprised to see how many people actually like the Refit version. I remember when I first saw it, I wasn't too happy with the refitted nacelles and support pylons, but it grew on me very quickly. In model building circles, when Polar Lights issued a 1/350 scale version of the model, it was a top seller and got a second issue with additional details added at a higher price. It sold very well indeed. The multi-panel paint scheme along with duplicating the lighting is no easy task. That being said, I've seen people come up with some amazing replications of the filming model that are the envy of any model builder.

That same model company, after a lot of debate and demand from the model building community, is releasing a 1/350 scale version of the Original Series Enterprise next year and people are "lining up" to get it.

In terms of the JJ-Prize, a model was planned, but it never got past the prototype stage. Rumor has it that merchandising for the 2009 film wasn't selling well, so production of a scale model was abandoned. Maybe when the next Trek film comes out, it might get a second chance, but for now, there are no plans to release such a model.

From an artistic view (mine), the 2009 Enterprise is poorly proportioned and not a very elegant design to look at. There really aren't any styling cues from the Original Series E, but there are a lot of connections to the TMP E. I remember Trek fans taking the film design and moving the engines about and elongating the secondary hull so the profile looked a bit more familiar, but you just couldn't get past how it looked.

That doesn't even address how the shuttle bay was configured in the film with the shuttles stacked on each side of the bay - the configuration intimated that the ship was much larger than that of the original series. When you look at the ship profile, size and placement of viewports and the suggested number of decks, the configuration of the bay as shown in the film just didn't work. Contemporary audiences are no longer children like we were back in the 60s and totally blind to scaling issues that came up frequently in genre shows of the day (the Jupiter 2 from Lost in Space...hello?). When you see such glaring production design issues, it's almost like one hand doesn't know what the other is doing, or you have a director/producer that just dismisses it completely.

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Old September 20th, 2011, 04:47 PM   #48
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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I saw "The Menagerie" on as big screen at a convention once- it was AWESOME.
Chris -

I saw "The Menagerie" in a movie theatre a couple of years ago as a one time filmgoing event. I thought that the original series looked pretty good on a large screen. I wasn't bothered how it looked, but considering that it wasn't made for a theatre release, there was a certain amount of consideration being given. I enjoyed it!

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Old September 20th, 2011, 04:49 PM   #49
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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Contemporary audiences are no longer children like we were back in the 60s and totally blind to scaling issues that came up frequently in genre shows of the day (the Jupiter 2 from Lost in Space...hello?)
What? You mean a lower level AND landing gear wouldn't fit into the J2????
Shirley you jest!
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Old September 20th, 2011, 04:58 PM   #50
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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Chris -
I thought that the original series looked pretty good on a large screen.
I enjoyed it!
Bryan, I'll never forget seeing Battlestar Galactica in the theatre (in SENSURROUND, no less) and it was great.

No need to improve on classic looks, says I. They work on any venue.
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Old September 20th, 2011, 05:50 PM   #51
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

My preference for the TOS Enterprise is much like that of a first love. Although the newer versions of the Enterprise are sleeker and more sophisticated, they just can't hold a candle to how I feel about the original Enterprise. In my eyes, it's the 2nd most beautiful starship that I've ever seen. (If you've paid attention to some of my posts through the years, you'll know which ship is at the top!)
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Old September 20th, 2011, 08:13 PM   #52
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Alas, I have forgotten my first love, for she was a terrible taste of things to come. In fact, I don't even remember her name.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 12:07 AM   #53
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

No, I don't like "messing with source material", as you put it. What I would "have wanted", as you put it, is something that actually looked like it belonged in the Pike/pre-Kirk era, and not someone's "re-imagining" of it.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 01:49 AM   #54
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

The original Enterprise is my number one favorite ship followed rapidly by the refit. as in my way they are the same craft they are both number one .... followed by the Galactica as my second fav

sorry BST the Enterprise was there first .

One of the things I planed on doing with the classic Enterprise I am currently building for a tutorial is to give it a motion picture look.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 02:50 AM   #55
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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No, I don't like "messing with source material", as you put it. What I would "have wanted", as you put it, is something that actually looked like it belonged in the Pike/pre-Kirk era, and not someone's "re-imagining" of it.
LOL, clearly it's something that you quickly get defensive about. But that's OK

Would you rather they'd only catered for a minority of total purist original series fans and it had been a commercial disaster and 'one off'?

The argument that the tech looks too advanced only holds so much water for me.
The hard fact is that no 40+ year old vision of the future is still going to be completely relevant and believeable now.
NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE ALL LOVED IT 40 YEARS AGO!

I grew up watching the original series and everything was redesigned for the 'motion picture' just over a decade later so where do you draw the line?

For me the re-evaluation of the technology for ST-TMP was perfect. The re-fit Enterprise was perfect. It was all 'goldilocks' to me.

You have to be a realist about this. They clearly tried to please the old fans.
They could have just flipped us the finger and started again.... (well we all know how that can pan out don't we?)

But they needed to make a movie that would be a commercial success.
So they needed a new audience as well.

I guess you'll be sticking to your guns (phasers) on this issue and you won't be watching the next movie?
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Old September 21st, 2011, 02:57 AM   #56
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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Bryan, I'll never forget seeing Battlestar Galactica in the theatre (in SENSURROUND, no less) and it was great.

No need to improve on classic looks, says I. They work on any venue.

I can't match 'SENSURROUND' but I saw BOTH BSG movies at the cinema in Teignmouth, which (allegedly) had the largest screen in Europe!
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Old September 21st, 2011, 03:13 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Gemini1999 View Post
Steve -

From an artistic view (mine), the 2009 Enterprise is poorly proportioned and not a very elegant design to look at. There really aren't any styling cues from the Original Series E, but there are a lot of connections to the TMP E. I remember Trek fans taking the film design and moving the engines about and elongating the secondary hull so the profile looked a bit more familiar, but you just couldn't get past how it looked.

Bryan
I agree with your observations here especially the proportions.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 03:18 AM   #58
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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The thing I dislike about the design.

The secondary hull design.
The Warp Engine nacelles.
It look like its lost all its gracefulness.

its just ugly or fugly as one of my friends call it. who has modeled the classic Enterprise many time in Truespace.

It possibly my biggest dislike at the end of the day
It's difficult I agree.
The Enterprise is such an iconic shape.
I don't think the new design is perfect. I personally would have favoured a more angular look.... But I am in the re-fit/A were perfect camp.

Fugly? Thats a bit mean.
Enterprise D! Now that's Fugly! (only saved by the hillarious uber-refit that Riker captains in 'all good things')

I'd rate the new one as 'OK'. Acceptable.
I guess we all are going to have fairly strong feelings about how the Enterprise should look, and how it has looked in its various incarnations.
I loved the original, the re-fit/A, Excelsior-refit class and Ambassador class.

I thought the D was hideous, E was a little better and lets just not mention the NX-01 atrocity

So with that in mind.....
I kinda half expected something awful from the new design, and was quite pleased that it was 'ok'.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 03:29 AM   #59
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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Originally Posted by Centurion Draco View Post
It's difficult I agree.
The Enterprise is such an iconic shape.
I don't think the new design is perfect. I personally would have favoured a more angular look.... But I am in the re-fit/A were perfect camp.

Fugly? Thats a bit mean.
Enterprise D! Now that's Fugly! (only saved by the hillarious uber-refit that Riker captains in 'all good things')

I'd rate the new one as 'OK'. Acceptable.
I guess we all are going to have fairly strong feelings about how the Enterprise should look, and how it has looked in its various incarnations.
I loved the original, the re-fit/A, Excelsior-refit class and Ambassador class.

I thought the D was hideous, E was a little better and lets just not mention the NX-01 atrocity

So with that in mind.....
I kinda half expected something awful from the new design, and was quite pleased that it was 'ok'.


Well I say. if you like it, "that cool".

I am also in the "re-fit/A were perfect camp" and due in no small measure to their proportions.

I have seen a number of fan designed ships that could easily take jprise on and I think is a winner due to its close adherence to the original design, in fact there is one that is across between the classic Enterprise and the following refit.

Quote:
Fugly? Thats a bit mean.
I still stick to it and I would take the Enterprise D over the re imagined one.

But then these are only my views on it.
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Old September 21st, 2011, 10:55 AM   #60
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Default Re: Star Trek (next) JJ.A signs on, plot?

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Would you rather they'd only catered for a minority of total purist original series fans and it had been a commercial disaster and 'one off'?
Someone recently pointed out to me that the design of the Enterprise in the new movie ONLY matters to absolute die hard fans, and to the the general public, the JJPrise looks just like the one from the TV series AND the movies.
SO... if it really only matters to the fans, why not make US happy- the rest of the moviegoers will take whatever they're given gladly, as long as the movie is exciting & the actors engaging.
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