Was Obi-Wan Kenobi heartless and cruel ?

gpdesigner · July 18th, 2005, 09:08 AM

Ok before I get into me statement just a bit about the story line continuity.
I know the saga of Star Wars spans almost 30 years, and I think they really did a splendid job keeping the continuity of the story together . . . . .
However . .
episode 5:
Obi-wan appears to Luke in ghostly fashion, Just after Luke escapes the from the clutches of the Snow-Monster. While Luke is laying there Obi-Wan appears to him and clearly states that he should go to Degoba and learn from Yoda The Jedi Master who taught Obi-Wan . . . . Shouldn't that be Qui-Gon Jinn ?

I just thought I would mention that . . . .

Ok so to my statement: Was Obi-Wan Kenobi heartless and crule ?
episode 3 :
The Battle scene between Anakin and Obi-Wan was awesome to say the least, And I totally realize that Obi-Wan mission was to stop Anakin at cost. But after the movie the events that took place at the close of that battle set me uneasy about Obi-Wan.
What he did to Anakin was un-Jedi I thought. basically he left him badly burned, and crippled, which are injuries he himself inflicked for the most part. But after he damaged Anakin beyond any hope . . . . . he just turns and walks off.
he knew Anakin was still alive or ready to die at best, why would he just walk off and leave him in mortal pain until death considering what Anakin was to him.
Even I would have put a bullet in his head to end it, not just leave him charred and hobbled and waiting to die!
I just thought that was not in character for Obi-Wan

3d

Charybdis · July 18th, 2005, 09:18 AM

It seems like a real easy thing to do, plunge the light saber in him and kill him off. But really put yourself into some type of situation like that. Anakin has been horribly defeated and is now burning up and will most likely die soon, but once the fight is over, Obi's feelings come out and he almost starts crying about what has happened. I think it is also logical that he decided to leave it well enough alone and leave Anakin to die.

I think it's a bit much to ask him to go up and chop his head off to end the misery! And besides, there wouldn't be any reason for eps 4-6!!!

gpdesigner · July 18th, 2005, 09:40 AM

I didn't get that impression from Obi after the battle, to me he seemed more upset over the distruction Anakin caused and the pain he was feeling because of Anakin betrayal seeing how he was "supposed to be the chosen one" I don't think his emotion was solely driving by the realization of crippling Anakin, tho' I do admit that there may have been some of that there. I just didn't see that much remorse in Obi-Wans eyes.
It almost seems like it was a rush to wrap the shooting.
When we know in eps 4-6 how much bodily damage was done to Vader, why was it so important that "All" of it be done in that first battle with Obi-Wan . . .?
I mean he was just cooked, chopped up and shoved into the black suite all in 20 minuites. . . I thought the idea of Vaders injuries were due to years of constant battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charybdis

I think it's a bit much to ask him to go up and chop his head off to end the misery! And besides, there wouldn't be any reason for eps 4-6!!!

yeah leave it up to me and the series would have been over before it started . . . .

3d

gmd3d · July 18th, 2005, 09:49 AM

Quote:

he knew Anakin was still alive or ready to die at best, why would he just walk off and leave him in mortal pain until death considering what Anakin was to him.
Even I would have put a bullet in his head to end it, not just leave him charred and hobbled and waiting to die!
I just thought that was not in character for Obi-Wan.

I did think along those lines myself sometime ago and you have reminded me of it..
I think you have a point Obi-wan would and should have finished the job.. but then there would be no 4. 5 or 6..

Perhap Anakin should have fallen down a slope and out of sight could have help that

Darrell Lawrence · July 18th, 2005, 09:59 AM

Darth Vader is a clone of Anakin.

gmd3d · July 18th, 2005, 10:11 AM

theres a thought.. Vader a Clone...

julix · July 18th, 2005, 10:31 AM

First off you need to read the book......it explains so much so well. Second it is totally against jedi training and rules to kill a defensless being............which Anakin certainly was. i think you could see the pain on Obi-wan face. And the heartache as he says.......I loved you like a brother! He utters the lines "I shall do what I must" which is a line Qui-Gon uses and he has learned from. He had to fight Anakin...........but he did not want to. plus Obi-Wan did think Anakin was going to die.......It was always in the lore that Vader's injuries was from the fight with Obi-wan......

The line about Yoda training .........it is because if you notice master Jodi trains all younglings.............Qui-Gon was Obi-Wan's mater but Yoda is all that is left that can complete Luke's training..........

gpdesigner · July 18th, 2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julix

First off you need to read the book......it explains so much so well. Second it is totally against jedi training and rules to kill a defensless being............which Anakin certainly was.

A friend told me about books that were written on Star Wars by other authors and "sanctioned" by George Lucus, and that these books cover a lot of backstory, I wish I did read some of these before, but like most I am just going on movie face value.

but for the moment let us disreguard the fact that killing Vader would do away with eps 4-6 this is a given. Lets deal with being in the moment which is a "Jedi phrase" At that monement Obi-Wan Cuts off both of Anakins legs and the last good arm he has, stands over his body and basically says. . . "now take that!"
The fire was just something that happens after the fact. but still . . .
Obi-Wan being a skilled "swordsman" knows the damage he is inflicting on Anakin as he is jumping through the air, in Fact Obi-Wan says, " The fight is over. . . I have the Higher ground." Knowing this . . and then inflicking the damage he did, why did he just kill Anakin instead of making him a basket case. You have to admit there is some sort of cruelty in that . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by julix

He utters the lines "I shall do what I must" which is a line Qui-Gon uses and he has learned from. He had to fight Anakin...........but he did not want to.

So Obi-Wan intention was to cripple his student . . . again this is cruelty. We all know that a Jedi will kill, so if he had to kill Anakin then he should have . . .
Just get it over with, cut his head off and be done with it . . .
( remember we suspend the idea of eps 4-6 here)

Quote:

Originally Posted by julix

It was always in the lore that Vader's injuries was from the fight with Obi-wan......

I don't remember this from the movies but if you say it is ideas from the books that have been written, then I will believe you . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by julix

The line about Yoda training ......... it is because if you notice master Jodi trains all younglings.............Qui-Gon was Obi-Wan's mater but Yoda is all that is left that can complete Luke's training..........

I can see your point here but, Yoda's training of Obi-Wan would have been a fraction of the time compaired to the time he spent with Qui-Gon and that being said Qui-Gon as Obi-Wans latest Master, should be given all the credit, and even in death Qui-Gon was training Obi-Wan. In one of the last scenes in eps 3
Yoda send Obi on his last mission, to watch over young Luke and to commune with Qui-Gon on the After life return force thingy . . .
3d

gpdesigner · July 18th, 2005, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrior

Darth Vader is a clone of Anakin.

interesting theory . . .
theoretically his DNA would contain the same high concentration of Meticloriens so this is possible, but why clone him with missing limbs ?
3d

Fragmentary · July 18th, 2005, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3ddesigner

So Obi-Wan intention was to cripple his student . . . again this is cruelty. We all know that a Jedi will kill, so if he had to kill Anakin then he should have . . .
Just get it over with, cut his head off and be done with it . . .

I think it was more of a case of Obi-wan leaving open the possibilty, no matter how slim, that Anakin might survive. This was his friend and student for years and even though he had turned to the dark side, Obi-wan never wanted to fight him much less kill him. Human nature took over in that instant and he just walked away, feeling that at the very least he didn't deal the finishing blow. Maybe, somehow, Anakin might survive. At the point it was up to God or the force or just fate. It isn't rationale or logical at all, but then it was a totally emotional response. As long as he didn't follow through, them maybe he didn't really kill his friend. It was a weak moment of human sympathy that would come back to haunt Kenobi. It's all the more tragic because of that.

julix · July 18th, 2005, 01:09 PM

Good points Frag...............

The books are excellent even though they are "sanctioned". The episode 3 book especially. I never said anything about episodes 4-6 in my posts so it wasn't a factor in what I said. I never saw it as him standing over Anakin as a take that issue...........He warned Anakin.....don't do it I have the Higher ground..it is over......but being consumed by the dark side and arogance and power Anakin still thinks he will win. So he makes the aggressive move and Obi-wan responds. In reading the book, you will get much more insight into all the thoughts behind every character. Mean? No way. unfortunate, heart-breaking..........all of those things and yes it comes back to haunt him.

Darrell Lawrence · July 18th, 2005, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3ddesigner

but why clone him with missing limbs ?
3d

They didn't. It's the clone that got chopped up

My theory is that at some time not long before, Anakin did NOT embrace the Dark Side, so the Emperor killed him (or captured/froze him or whatever) and had him cloned, creating the perfect Sith Apprentist.

The clone truly believed he was the true Anakin, and the Jedi could not pick up the difference give the Force being with the clone as well.

But Padme may have detected a slight change, and that'd explain her "distance" from him in III until push came to shove and she came running to the clones side.

It'd also explain the clone forgetting about her laying there after he killed her.

gpdesigner · July 18th, 2005, 06:33 PM

warrior that is an interesting concept no doubt, but why go to the trouble of trying to convince the clone Anakin to believe he was the real anakin when his powers over the force is all the emperor wanted. For all the emperor cared a toaster could have taked Darth Vaders place as long as it was as strong with the force as Anakin was. But I can see that as being a good twist....

julix don't get me wrong about Obi-wan, I love that character, I think he has got to be the most energetic character of the Story. I mean we first meet him as an older gentelman and are amazed at his strength of being, then we finally get a chance to see him in his younger days and boy did he Rock . . . Obi-Wan is awesome . . . I just think that if his intention was to wound Anakin he could have just hacked off a leg or maybe his other arm, but julix he just left a burning torso still alive . . . that's harsh.
Now on the other hand, Anakin sure did desirve it . . . he killed a lot of people, kids as well . . . definately a bad man, got just what he asked for . . .

but it's Obi-wan I was concerned with, I think I will go out and get the book for eps 3 to see what you are talking about . . .
3d

julix · July 18th, 2005, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3ddesigner

warrior that is an interesting concept no doubt, but why go to the trouble of trying to convince the clone Anakin to believe he was the real anakin when his powers over the force is all the emperor wanted. For all the emperor cared a toaster could have taked Darth Vaders place as long as it was as strong with the force as Anakin was. But I can see that as being a good twist....

julix don't get me wrong about Obi-wan, I love that character, I think he has got to be the most energetic character of the Story. I mean we first meet him as an older gentelman and are amazed at his strength of being, then we finally get a chance to see him in his younger days and boy did he Rock . . . Obi-Wan is awesome . . . I just think that if his intention was to wound Anakin he could have just hacked off a leg or maybe his other arm, but julix he just left a burning torso still alive . . . that's harsh.
Now on the other hand, Anakin sure did desirve it . . . he killed a lot of people, kids as well . . . definately a bad man, got just what he asked for . . .

but it's Obi-wan I was concerned with, I think I will go out and get the book for eps 3 to see what you are talking about . . .
3d

Glad to hear you will be picking up the book........you won't regret it. it is an amazing read! Let me know what you think. I am actually rereading it right now. It is that good.

Darrell Lawrence · July 18th, 2005, 08:07 PM

Ya convince the clone it's the real deal so as to not tip off the Jedi until the time is right.

TopGun · July 19th, 2005, 01:37 AM

Back to the Yoda/Obi-Wan teachings, Yoda taught Obi-Wan how to come back from the dead via the force, from that point of view he was the Jedi Master who instructed Obi-Wan

julix · July 19th, 2005, 05:00 AM

yep top gun and you can look at this a couple of ways. In episode 3 Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he has training for him in his solotude on Tatooine. He tells him he will be communing with Qui-gon to learn about beyond death with the force. So even though he was "communing" with Qui-gon, it was under Yoda's training............

TopGun · July 19th, 2005, 05:45 AM

And Star Wars is all about Point of View

gpdesigner · July 19th, 2005, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

Back to the Yoda/Obi-Wan teachings, Yoda taught Obi-Wan how to come back from the dead via the force, from that point of view he was the Jedi Master who instructed Obi-Wan

Ummm sorry, that would be a negative. . .
Yoda told obi-Wan that he had a mission for him, he was to go to tatooine and look after young Skywalker, and while he was there, he was to comune with and learn fron Qui-Gon Jinn because Qui-Gon had learned how to re-emerge from the dead.
3d

Quote:

Originally Posted by julix

yep top gun and you can look at this a couple of ways. In episode 3 Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he has training for him in his solotude on Tatooine. He tells him he will be communing with Qui-gon to learn about beyond death with the force. So even though he was "communing" with Qui-gon, it was under Yoda's training............

I don't remember this from the movie, but I will indulge the theory by saying, If Yoda trained him in solotude, "how you train someone for that" it wasn't about beyond death, this he did learn from Qui-Gon. Also if we look at the time line here we will notice that After Qui-Gons death if Yoda started training Obi-Wan in solotude he had 10 years maybe 15 tops to train Obi, enough time to span the distance from eps 2 to eps 3. Now we have to look at the time Obi spent in solotude with Qui-Gon and that would be at least 19 years, enough time for young Skywalker to grow up, so I think we can stil give Qui-gon the credit for being Obi-Wans Mentor . . .

but this is all speculation from the movies point of view, if the books give more indepth details then we should set up this guideline in using the books as extra reference points . . those are good conceprts fellas I can see your points but you can't convince me

3d

julix · July 19th, 2005, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3ddesigner

Ummm sorry, that would be a negative. . .
Yoda told obi-Wan that he had a mission for him, he was to go to tatooine and look after young Skywalker, and while he was there, he was to comune with and learn fron Qui-Gon Jinn because Qui-Gon had learned how to re-emerge from the dead.
3d

Had to edit cause I didn't see the reply at first

julix · July 19th, 2005, 06:35 AM

I do give Qui-Gon full credit as Obi-Wan's master. I think it was just one of those little things................in all honesty when Lucas made episode IV he had no idea how sucessful it would be.........no one did. i think he lined it all up really well for me. This is just one of those things.

gpdesigner · July 19th, 2005, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julix

I do give Qui-Gon full credit as Obi-Wan's master. I think it was just one of those little things................in all honesty when Lucas made episode IV he had no idea how sucessful it would be.........no one did. i think he lined it all up really well for me. This is just one of those things.

it's cool to see there is a lot of people out there who are into Star Wars

3d

julix · July 19th, 2005, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3ddesigner

it's cool to see there is a lot of people out there who are into Star Wars

3d

I agree..........I am a total sweek!

TopGun · July 19th, 2005, 09:01 AM

Is that sort for Star Wars Geek or something?

btw 3D I never said that I don't feel that Qui-Gon was Obi-Wan's mentor.

Maybe Qui-Gon was still a sore point for Obi-Wan, having seen his mentor killed. And so didn't mention him to Luke

julix · July 19th, 2005, 09:06 AM

sweek................star wars geek

TopGun · July 19th, 2005, 09:09 AM

Thought so, sounds pretty nice. What else could we call ourselves? Warsies

julix · July 19th, 2005, 09:12 AM

swoopies.........star wars groupies

TopGun · July 19th, 2005, 09:16 AM

Some Star Wars Fans could be called Bucket-Heads

julix · July 19th, 2005, 09:19 AM

I just love how the media and all describe a star wars fan as a 40 year old guy who lives in his mama's basement. I laugh at that one! I assure you I am not!

TopGun · July 19th, 2005, 09:24 AM

Well, you're not a guy for one

The Media love sterotypes