Reverse homage

Mustex · September 26th, 2004, 05:08 PM

O.k., while everyone knows TNS was very different from TOS, it did pay homage at certain ponts. I was wondering, if TNS is successful, and helps to bring TOS back, would anyone want to see some reverse homage, like having someone on the TOS Galactica make a speech, and end it with "SO SAY WE ALL!"?

BST · September 26th, 2004, 05:14 PM

Uh, no. I would like to see as little as possible from TNS, in the Continuation movie. The only possible departure from that would be to include Aaron (Tyrol) in the movie. He's a class act and I've enjoyed the time that he has spent here at Fleets.

thomas7g · September 26th, 2004, 05:20 PM

And the girl who plays Boomer!!!!

BST · September 26th, 2004, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

And the girl who plays Boomer!!!!

OOPS! Forgot about her!

thomas7g · September 26th, 2004, 05:31 PM

Actually we might have to include the space jumping ability. There is an inconsistancy in the old show that does not fly today. That is the ragtag fleet flew at sublight speeds. And we know stars are years apart at that speed.

One thing that may change is that vipers may pivot in space during a dogfight. Much like the new show. Though that ability was already applied to vipers in the Eden test footage for the DeSanto production back in 2001.

I know fans consider the new show to be a pariah. But including some "tributes" may help. It can bring in some of the newer fans. And help unite a fanbase. Fans tend to be devisive and not want to mix things together. But there are benefits to it.

The funniest moments of the Galacticon revolved about poking fun at Dirk Benedicts "feminity". Even to the point where they handed him a purse in front of the crowd of fans. And think of that funny take on A-Team where a cylon walks by Benedict.

thomas7g · September 26th, 2004, 05:33 PM

I think it would be funny for our Starbuck and Boomer to find feminine undergarments in his locker.

Quote:

(After starbuck and Boomer find the planted undergarments in their lockers)

Boomer: "... this actually might look nice on you."

Starbuck: "ya know.... I always thought there was someting different about you!"

julix · September 26th, 2004, 05:35 PM

Not so sure whare I stand on this...When the continuation movie goes to opening night ask me then......

I don't think TNS gave much homage to TOS which would be deserved and came first...but if you have examples....

martok2112 · September 26th, 2004, 05:41 PM

I must respectfully concur with BST in this assessment. The Original series does not need to make any kind of nod to the new show. It is a different class of animal. What I mean by that is this:

Let's look at the Star Trek analogy. It is alright for a furture show to make a nod to an older show because of the continuity situation. The film Star Trek Generations is the perfect example of this.

However, the two Galactica shows are different breeds altogether. The new Galactica show owes its entire existence (even if it is markedly different from the classic show) to the original Galactica we all know and love. (And I am speaking as a fan of both Galacticas).

Even if the success of the new show actually does benefit a revival of the classic show to the big screen, in my humble opinon, the classic show owes nothing to the new show. The classic was here first, and for many, that is all that will ever be regarded as Galactica.

I also concur that Chief Tyrol is a character that is extremely well suited to EITHER Galactica show. And Grace Park's presence on a Classic Galactica show would be a welcome one IMHO...of course, the role of Boomer is already taken

She could be another female pilot in a classic continuation...and perhaps still remain Tyrol's love interest. (Aaron, I am certain you would not object.)

Respectfully to all,
Martok2112

julix · September 26th, 2004, 05:47 PM

Martok....
Well said my friend, well said......and I do agree with Grace, I think she is a good actress and Tyrol(as you know).

martok2112 · September 26th, 2004, 05:53 PM

Julix, I will also say this about the homages that the new show did pay to the classic.

Most of the nods were cosmetic.

Many of the ships in the rag-tag fleet did look like they were part of the original fleet. In fact, there is one shot toward the end of the miniseries that I would swear looked like a classic establishing shot, just with a new Galactica. It actually brought back memories for me.

Obviously, we see the classic Cylons presented in a museum, to include a classic Cylon basestar, which, in conjunction with Six's statement about them still being around and having their uses, leads me to believe that we might see the Classic Cylons in action in future episodes of new Galactica.

I personally think that the retractable landing bays of the new Galactica are a nod to the intent of the original Galactica design (which was in the novel, and if I recall correctly was axed in production of the original show due to budget constraints) I like to think of it as the new show saying: "Hey, classic Galactica, we got your back with this one."

Probably the most grating nod, one that was not so readilly accepted by many classic fans, was hearing the rather tinny sound of a sample of Stu Phillips' original Galactica theme.

These were the most notable nods I could see. There are many who will not see these as viable nods at all...tokens if anything, but not viables.

As long as Boomer and Starbuck are women (which has got to be the biggest sore spot for many a stalwart classic fan), nothing the new show does will sway their opinons, no matter how positively the show might try to change.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

julix · September 26th, 2004, 05:58 PM

Martok...
Thanks for the reply and I was aware of those you listed I meant actually Homage to TOS not the cosmectic similarities.....

martok2112 · September 26th, 2004, 06:04 PM

((((((((((((((((((Julix))))))))))))))))))))))

Probably the biggest "referencial" nod to Classic Galactica was part of the "So Say We All" speech at the end of the mini.

" 'Life here began out there..' Those are the first words of the sacred scrolls, and they were told to us by the Lords of Kobol many countless centuries ago." Adama said.

Again though, this may be only a token nod in the view of many classic Galactica fans. Everything else may be superfluous.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

martok2112 · September 26th, 2004, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

And think of that funny take on A-Team where a cylon walks by Benedict.

That was a classic moment that forever stays in my mind....and D.B.'s reaction to it was priceless.

A testament to the enduring spirit of Classic BATTLESTAR GALACTICA.

Long Live BATTLESTAR GALACTICA

Long Live BATTLESTAR GALACTICA

Respectfully,
Martok2112

BST · September 26th, 2004, 06:16 PM

Well, with a 25+ year gap, the "technological gap" could very neatly filled in. Also, handled properly, the ship complement in the RTF could actually have grown.

For me, though, there is simply not much from the new show that intrigues me, not the ship designs, not the technology (or lack thereof), not the premise, not the characters,......only a few of the actors, would I like to see in a continuation movie.

Sorry, Tom, that's the best that I could do for an olive branch.

I actually started this reply, after julix's 1st post at 20:35.........I had to take a phone call and just got back to this and, WOW, there was a whole lot of talking going on, in the meantime.

A thousand pardons!

Dawg · September 26th, 2004, 06:38 PM

I know where I stand on this.....

There should have been no playing of Stu Phillips music. There should have been no display of TOS Cylon Centurions. There should have been no reference to the circular Baseships.

TOS BSG, for all its flaws, was unique. No, it was not a Star Wars ripoff - there was a lawsuit that saw to that. ABC rushed it into production to take advantage of the unexpected popularity of the first Star Wars movie. Period.

RDM said when he came in he decided to reinvent TV sci-fi. He said he went back to the very beginning concept of BSG - watched the movie (not the 3-hour pilot, but the 90 minute movie edited from that), and began writing. He wrote in characters from a favorite WWII film called "In Harm's Way".

And when the fans that have kept BSG alive for 25 years said "Why?", RDM turned up his nose and said, basically, "deal with it" (a quote later repeated by a certain actress, thereby earning her a deserved degree of emnity).

(I'll not provide links - do your own research if you can't take my word for it. His and Eick's interviews have been prominently posted at Skiffy for a year.)

And yet, despite his oft-repeated insistance that his was a unique vision, we see deliberate references to TOS. Considering his adamant statements and arrogant attitude towards TOS fans, forgive me if I, as a fan, find the 10 second, horribly inadequate rendition of the grand Stu Phillips theme to be a slap in the face of TOS rather than an homage to it.

Mustex, you've said elsewhere that you think that TNS should have been called something different to distance itself from TOS - I most heartily agree.

I also agree with what others have said - Aaron Douglas' character of Tyrol was a breath of fresh air throughout - and he would fit admirably within a TOS BSG production.

I hope nobody takes this argumentatively - I certainly don't mean it that way. But I hope the issue is clearer. I would hope, for all the reasons Martok says and more, that there is no reference to or any other link to TNS in a BSG movie.

Mustex, for you and any other "newbie" to the boards who may not know much of BSG history, there are several websites you can visit to get an idea. Cylon Alliance is not a bad place to start:

http://www.cylon.org/bsg/bsg-intro-01.html

I am
Dawg

thomas7g · September 26th, 2004, 07:38 PM

I don't take anyone's comments even if they are 100% opposite mine as anything personal.

Its only when people start ging jihad that I ready the ban button.

For me its que sera sera, whatever will be will be. If they add in tribute stuff its fine with me. If they don't, I won't miss it.

BTW- Martof the use of original ragtag ships were not asked for by the creaters of the show. Infact they axed anything that reminded them of the original. But the special effect guys, they are the ones that loved the original. You can thank them for that. It wouldn't surprise me that the reason the models weren't axed was cause Hammer and Crew didn't recognize them. But then that is sheer speculation.

martok2112 · September 26th, 2004, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas7g

I don't take anyone's comments even if they are 100% opposite mine as anything personal.

Its only when people start ging jihad that I ready the ban button.

For me its que sera sera, whatever will be will be. If they add in tribute stuff its fine with me. If they don't, I won't miss it.

BTW- Martof the use of original ragtag ships were not asked for by the creaters of the show. Infact they axed anything that reminded them of the original. But the special effect guys, they are the ones that loved the original. You can thank them for that. It wouldn't surprise me that the reason the models weren't axed was cause Hammer and Crew didn't recognize them. But then that is sheer speculation.

Ahhhhh...yess...

Well, then. Let us thank the Special effects guys for keeping some of that fire alive.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

Gemini1999 · September 26th, 2004, 07:56 PM

Okay, my turn....

I can understand why the SFX team (Zoic) felt the need to try and inject as many visual references into the miniseries. Some of them truly loved TOS and wanted to feel that what they were contributing wasn't just technically satisfying, but also in sprit of the original series. All of the TOS ships that appear in the miniseries were some of my favorite scenes, but also the most painful - it was a reminder that only a very small part of this show resembled the original. It was like what people must feel if they win a lot of money, only to have 43 percent whacked off for taxes. They only get what's left over...

When a continuation film does hit the big screen (notice I said "when") - do I think that there should be references to TNS & the mini? My answers would be "no" and "why?". Why should a film production make references to a TV production that did its level best to distance itself from the original? At least, not until boosting ratings to guarantee a better chance of success became an issue... Such references to the Ron Moore production would be rather unneccesary as the two storylines aren't connected anyway.

I always thought that the mini & TNS should stand on it's own merit, not on the shoulders of what came before it. I don't wish TNS to fail, merely to succeed on its own without any gimmics to get people to watch. I mean, either it's good TV, or it isn't, We see that with Enterprise these days - just because it's a Trek show or movie, doesn't automatically guarantee it a success anymore.

I wish TNS & it's supporters the best of success, but I want a continuation movie for the rest of us - the ones that wanted what Tom DeSanto, Glen Larson (or whomever) was planning and didn't get it.

Best always,
Bryan

thomas7g · September 26th, 2004, 11:45 PM

Just wondering... if Grace is going to play your love. Does that mean you are going to play the role of Tyrol or a toaster?

Senmut · September 27th, 2004, 12:41 AM

All of the above merely brings up one of my most asked questions...Is RDM a parasite? Someone who has not an ounce of creativity, but must raid other people's stuff in order to keep himself employed? he talks about "creativity' and "re-imagining", but all I see is a trail of bad retreads from this guy.
What about you guys?

julix · September 27th, 2004, 05:28 AM

You guys are so good!...You all make good points and I love a good discussion. I mean it when I say some of the smartest men and women are here on the boards(fleets)......

Mustex · September 27th, 2004, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julix

Not so sure whare I stand on this...When the continuation movie goes to opening night ask me then......

I don't think TNS gave much homage to TOS which would be deserved and came first...but if you have examples....

Not much, but they had the names, the Cylon eye, and "At your command". I'm sure that would be enough to justify "SO SAY WE ALL!"

Mustex · September 27th, 2004, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martok2112

((((((((((((((((((Julix))))))))))))))))))))))

Probably the biggest "referencial" nod to Classic Galactica was part of the "So Say We All" speech at the end of the mini.

I don't remember TOS Adama saying "SO SAY WE ALL!", did I miss it?

Mustex · September 27th, 2004, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemini1999

I always thought that the mini & TNS should stand on it's own merit, not on the shoulders of what came before it. I don't wish TNS to fail, merely to succeed on its own without any gimmics to get people to watch. I mean, either it's good TV, or it isn't, We see that with Enterprise these days - just because it's a Trek show or movie, doesn't automatically guarantee it a success anymore.

Unfortunately TNS is running the same risk as "2001" of using real science, and possibly being ahead of it's time. Are the masses really ready to accept that space is silent, and you can't see lasers in it? That's probably the reason it took the "Galactica" name to begin with.

Mustex · September 27th, 2004, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senmut

All of the above merely brings up one of my most asked questions...Is RDM a parasite? Someone who has not an ounce of creativity, but must raid other people's stuff in order to keep himself employed? he talks about "creativity' and "re-imagining", but all I see is a trail of bad retreads from this guy.
What about you guys?

I see someone with the courage to finally stop dumbing-down Sci-fi.

justjackrandom · September 27th, 2004, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustex

Unfortunately TNS is running the same risk as "2001" of using real science, and possibly being ahead of it's time. Are the masses really ready to accept that space is silent, and you can't see lasers in it? That's probably the reason it took the "Galactica" name to begin with.

It didn't fly with "Firefly". TNS mini compromised. I don't know what they are going to do with the series.

As for trying to “clean up” the science of the TOS: I was originally pretty gung ho about the changes the TNS made, but after careful review and some new analysis of TOS, I am now convinced it is not nearly as “flawed” scientifically as most think. I won’t go into detail, but someday (soon) I hope, I’ll have all of my results posted in final form to my website.

I do think that a number of things seen and heard in the mini were meant as a sort of tribute to TOS, but most of it was simply making use of things that made both shows identifiable as Galactica. Without many of them (including the "life here began out there" quote) there would be no reason to call the show BSG. I am sure a number here would like that, but I for one am happy with the mix of familiar elements with the new.

JJR

julix · September 27th, 2004, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustex

I see someone with the courage to finally stop dumbing-down Sci-fi.

Explain yourself here...I am not sure I understand what you mean so clarify and give examples......

Gemini1999 · September 27th, 2004, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustex

Unfortunately TNS is running the same risk as "2001" of using real science, and possibly being ahead of it's time. Are the masses really ready to accept that space is silent, and you can't see lasers in it? That's probably the reason it took the "Galactica" name to begin with.

Mustex -

I don't know why you bothered to quote me - you comment had little or nothing to do with what I wrote.

As for the real science in a science fiction show... You pointed out that it's been done before, so it's hardly revolutionary. It's just a retread of someone else's technique.

A TV show isn't all about the background - it's not about the SFX, or the whys, hows and wherfores. It's about the story and the characters. That's why at the ripe old age of 44, I don't give a damn about all the details and how things work - those things are all window dressing. I find that if the story is engaging and the characters interesting, I will probably come away from the experience satisfied.

If you get your jollies from not hearing sounds in space and the use of bullets instead of particle beam weapons, that's great. All I'm saying is that if the show doesn't deliver on a more practical level, then it will suffer the same difficulties as Enterprise has had lateley. If people aren't interested in the storytelling or the characters, they will walk.

Sincerley,

Gemini1999

Ioraptor · September 27th, 2004, 11:16 AM

I think Mustex was just trying to gently change the subject.

nuGalatica nods its head at portraying realistic science in the fiction but doesnt go all the way. If it did, it would be pretty dry fare for the uninitiated masses.
For instance, no unaugmented human reflexes could match the reaction time of machines.
Gravity control and inertial dampening would be absolutely necessary to match a machine opponent in space. Heck, the robot planes coming down the line in the next decade will be able to outmaneuver human piloted planes (pull more g's, turn on a tighter curve etc).
In space a significant portion of combat would take place at very long distances between missiles and kinetic intercept weapons. Not a visceral thrill for the viewing audience.

The list goes on and on, but I am very happy that somebody is at least attempting to move forward in a more science oriented direction.

As a fan of TOS since it premiered, I would enjoy seeing actors from TNS make appearances in the Continuation. They are all a great bunch of young people and I hope TNS will enhance their acting careers and bring them wealth.

Hmmm, an interesting 'reverse homage' would be a scene where Centurians are about to kill a baby in the habitat (from the DeSanto version) and the mother pulls a blaster and blows em away before they can do the foul deed.
Thats the spirit of TOS!

......(and if the TNS fleet refugees survive long enough, thats the spirit they will have too)

Ioraptor · September 27th, 2004, 11:36 AM

oh yeah I forgot the other point I wanted to address.......

Senmut asked if Mr Moore is a 'parasite'.
I dont think so.
I think he is a gifted writer, and like most writers he has a distinctive style which will appeal to some and not to others.
He has rebuilt Galactica the way he knows how and its very different from TOS. I noticed that there was a statement dissassociating TOS from Star Wars. That goes against everything I have read since Starlog first started writing articles about Galactica in the late 70's to this day.
Stories, creative drama, do not exist in a void from which they spontaneously generate. There are no new human stories and if you look hard enough you will discover a Greek tragedy, Biblical testement, or Shakespearean play that contains all the elements of the fiction of your choice. And those stories are descended from even older ones!

What makes science fiction different, what has changed in human story telling is the direction we look in time. Rather than tell stories that take place in a magical past that never was, science fiction tells stories that take place in a magical future that just might be.
Battlestar Galatica is a mythos now. A rich science fiction myth that deserves respect and attention from creative people. That it langored in obscurity for so long is a tragedy. Lets hope that more artists recognize the power of the Galactica themes and make it over in the images of their creative power.
I suspect that if we survive as a race into the future, Galactica in some form will be present. It has all the primal human themes; human migration, warfare, romance, hope in the face of dispair, and the spiritual questioning that has troubled our minds since the beginning of time.