Go Back   Colonial Fleets > BATTLESTAR GALACTICA DISCUSSION AREA > The Last Battlestar......Galactica!
Notices
The Last Battlestar......Galactica! For discussions about the ORIGINAL series
What Dreams May Come!

Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 2nd, 2003, 02:19 AM   #1
GuitarEC
Guest
 
GuitarEC's Avatar
 
Posts: n/a

Exclamation This could be important...

Summoner raised the folowing at the %$*#& board :

"If Viacom buys Scifi, then they can not make the new BSG because it still belongs to Universal..."

Could this really happen??:confused:
  Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 08:04 AM   #2
Micheleh
Watashiwa Shin no Noir
 
Micheleh's Avatar
 
Veteran
Fleets Warrior
SPECIAL ACHIEVEMENT AWARDFormer Assistant
Richard Hatch

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where my heart is.
Posts: 1,038


Default

The universal properties are up for sale as well.

This is the key point many detractors don't seem to grasp- when Universal changes hands, it is almost a given that all the upper management and decision makers will change. The new company and owners of the Universal properties are watching the current goings on, I can almost guarantee this. They will realise where fan sentiment lies, and hopefully see that they have a guaranteed win if they follow it. (A win-win situation.)

The gist of what I'm saying is that the current wishes of the PTB at Universal are only effective as long as they ARE the PTB- not a minute longer. A significant transfer of power will result in all agreements being cleared and all projects being renegotiated and reconsidered across the board. IMHO, of course, but I also predicted the selloff in the first place.

Best case? The new owners of Unviersal Entertainment will greenlight a continuation from one of the many still in the works behind the scenes, and the new owners of Sci-Fi, in their mission to restore the channel to the leader in the science fiction field it was, will jump on it, much success will come, and all will be happy.

I am hoping.....
Micheleh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 08:23 AM   #3
jewels
Stablemaster, Livery Ship
 
jewels's Avatar
 


FORUM STAFFFleet Modertor
Colonial Fleets

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wandering Indiana
Posts: 5,101


Default

It's no different than Universal making "Law & Order" variations for NBC. Viacom (also parent to CBS which runs several Universal "properties": The District, The Agency to name 2) would be owning Scifi (and they like life in space: Trek, they know how to cater to established fans and garner new ones: Trek movies, "generations" of spin offs of Trek, they know how to update a look: see previous examples). And thanks to the Farscaper's they know Ms. Bonnie is not necessarily wise when it comes to fans. Anybody else see a win-win in this?
jewels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 08:29 AM   #4
Thomas P

Council of Elders
TOS Gladiator Manager
 
Thomas P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Just over there
Posts: 77

Default

The first problem is that this is all speculation based on a rumor being reported by Michael Hinman concerning Viacom's purchase of Sci-Fi being imminent. Hinman's record of accuracy with rumors is very, very poor.
Thomas P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 09:25 AM   #5
Micheleh
Watashiwa Shin no Noir
 
Micheleh's Avatar
 
Veteran
Fleets Warrior
SPECIAL ACHIEVEMENT AWARDFormer Assistant
Richard Hatch

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where my heart is.
Posts: 1,038


Default

My speculation is based on the fact that *any* change of ownership will likely cause reassessment of current proprerties and their potential, with a chance of more objective, less biased considerations.
Micheleh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 09:33 AM   #6
Hito
Warrior
 
Hito's Avatar
 
Veteran
Fleets Warrior

Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: PAX Amerikana
Posts: 396

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Micheleh
The universal properties are up for sale as well.

This is the key point many detractors don't seem to grasp- when Universal changes hands, it is almost a given that all the upper management and decision makers will change. The new company and owners of the Universal properties are watching the current goings on, I can almost guarantee this. They will realise where fan sentiment lies, and hopefully see that they have a guaranteed win if they follow it. (A win-win situation.)

More like a loose loose.
When studios and entertainment companies go through management shake-ups a lot of times projects that were underway during one regime gets shelved in favor of the projects favored by those coming in.

Chances are if BSG winds up on the shelf again you will never hear about it again.
They will sit on it till Hatch is dead and rotting and the TOS fanbase's most pressing concern is which adult diaper to buy.
__________________

I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today -- my own government....
~ Dr. Martin Luther King ~

I can hear God saying to America: “You are too arrogant! If you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power!"
~ Dr. Martin Luther King ~
Hito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 09:46 AM   #7
LordStarFyre
Warrior
 
LordStarFyre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 452

Default Nice comments Hito

Geez, glad to see your enthusiasm for Galactica...
LordStarFyre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 09:48 AM   #8
Micheleh
Watashiwa Shin no Noir
 
Micheleh's Avatar
 
Veteran
Fleets Warrior
SPECIAL ACHIEVEMENT AWARDFormer Assistant
Richard Hatch

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where my heart is.
Posts: 1,038


Default

LOL! Sorry, I don't see it that way- mainly because of the implicit profit in this property. There's a *big* difference between shelving a new, speculative project and shelving a guaranteed moneymaker with a built in fanbase.

Ego was the only thing that kept Hammer and Moore from going that route. Get rid fo the ego, and common sense will show that it can be a lucrative project.
Micheleh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 09:53 AM   #9
Thomas P

Council of Elders
TOS Gladiator Manager
 
Thomas P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Just over there
Posts: 77

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Micheleh
My speculation is based on the fact that *any* change of ownership will likely cause reassessment of current proprerties and their potential, with a chance of more objective, less biased considerations.
There will never be anything like "objective" consideration brought to this kind of project by anyone, sorry.

But to the main point, unless these changes are going to occur "yesterday" any speculation is moot. If the mini-series goes into production and any significant amount of money is spent on it the likelihood of a new corporate structure being imposed quickly on such a level as to halt production is just about nil. This would require too many people on too many levels to turn on a dime and devote concern to the fate of this thing; simply put, the folks running Viacom and Vivendi have much, much bigger fish to fry in any buyout or sale of significant holdings, and micromanaging a cable-channel tv movie that's already under way would not even be on the radar.
__________________
3d Gladiators division

"That Which Does Not Kill Me Postpones The Inevitable"
Thomas P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 10:06 AM   #10
Micheleh
Watashiwa Shin no Noir
 
Micheleh's Avatar
 
Veteran
Fleets Warrior
SPECIAL ACHIEVEMENT AWARDFormer Assistant
Richard Hatch

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where my heart is.
Posts: 1,038


Default

"There will never be anything like "objective" consideration brought to this kind of project by anyone, sorry."

Well, maybe not pure scientific objectivism, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about "less than foaming-at-the-mouth biased".

"But to the main point, unless these changes are going to occur "yesterday" any speculation is moot. If the mini-series goes into production and any significant amount of money is spent on it the likelihood of a new corporate structure being imposed quickly on such a level as to halt production is just about nil. This would require too many people on too many levels to turn on a dime and devote concern to the fate of this thing; simply put, the folks running Viacom and Vivendi have much, much bigger fish to fry in any buyout or sale of significant holdings, and micromanaging a cable-channel tv movie that's already under way would not even be on the radar."

We'll see.
Micheleh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 10:12 AM   #11
LordStarFyre
Warrior
 
LordStarFyre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 452

Default Well After the stink

Moore made leaving Viacom/Paramount, one would hope that they have a decent memory, and if they take over, that he will be ousted on day one.

I know certain people like Ron, but I don't, and frankly, the day he gets his smarmy clutches off Galactica, will be the day I celebrate.

Even bigger Party when Bonnie "Oh God, I look like Dr Laura" Hammer gets her pink slip...
LordStarFyre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 10:14 AM   #12
jewels
Stablemaster, Livery Ship
 
jewels's Avatar
 


FORUM STAFFFleet Modertor
Colonial Fleets

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wandering Indiana
Posts: 5,101


Default

Ah, but the potential to make a profitable franchise is always on all of their radar screens.

Galactica still holds records, almost 25 years past her 1st broadcast. And at the very least the general public can still tell a Cylon from a stormtrooper. Hmmm. My money is still on a stop being thrown by someone before this thing airs.

Remember how Fox threw a stop on the original Firefly pilot and it was rewritten over the weekend and shot the next week? And that pilot was a good, NEW story! There was no established fanbase that had screamed themselves hoarse opposing it! (eventually Fox used it as the finale, but they'd have thrown it in file 13 in the ol' Fox film vault without the fans raising a rucous about seeing it.)

No, my dear, until the signal hits the cable wire or the broadcast satellite: anything can and may happen. This is BSG, she's even bitten hands that respected her before.
jewels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 11:00 AM   #13
Hito
Warrior
 
Hito's Avatar
 
Veteran
Fleets Warrior

Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: PAX Amerikana
Posts: 396

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by LordStarFyre
Geez, glad to see your enthusiasm for Galactica...
I am and have been very enthusiastic about Galactica.
But my enthusiasm or lack therof has nothing to do with studio politics.

There have been several projects that I have been interested in that have been shelved becasue of studio shake-ups, Alien Vs. Predator comes to mind.


Quote:
Originally posted by Micheleh
LOL! Sorry, I don't see it that way- mainly because of the implicit profit in this property. There's a *big* difference between shelving a new, speculative project and shelving a guaranteed moneymaker with a built in fanbase.

Ego was the only thing that kept Hammer and Moore from going that route. Get rid fo the ego, and common sense will show that it can be a lucrative project.
I dont see it that way.
Untiel Blade hit bigtime there were lots of Comic to Film projects that had been shelved.
Ant the arguement can be made that they were also "a guaranteed moneymaker with a built in fanbase." And most of those "titles" have been constantly in the public consciousness.

Galactica for the most part hasnt been in the public consciousness for 25 years.
And i htink you can look at the sucess of other revival attempts in diffrent media and see that the financial power of the Existing fanbase is not as great as you would think.

I worked at one of the high volume Toys R Us when the trendmasters Galactica toys came out.
They were hot the day they came out becasue of the collectors but then they sat on the shelves till we marked them down for clearance.
__________________

I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today -- my own government....
~ Dr. Martin Luther King ~

I can hear God saying to America: “You are too arrogant! If you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power!"
~ Dr. Martin Luther King ~
Hito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 11:04 AM   #14
Micheleh
Watashiwa Shin no Noir
 
Micheleh's Avatar
 
Veteran
Fleets Warrior
SPECIAL ACHIEVEMENT AWARDFormer Assistant
Richard Hatch

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where my heart is.
Posts: 1,038


Default

Yeah... good points. I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one until things happen, eh?

Care to make a little informal wager?
Micheleh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 11:11 AM   #15
Hito
Warrior
 
Hito's Avatar
 
Veteran
Fleets Warrior

Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: PAX Amerikana
Posts: 396

Default

Sure.
I'd wager on the show finishing production and airing in Dec 03.

Edit:
I wouldnt have a few weeks ago tho...
Hito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 11:13 AM   #16
LordStarFyre
Warrior
 
LordStarFyre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 452

Default Trendmasters Galactica Toys

...Ah Hito, I hate to lmock on your example here, but those things looked STOOPID.

Starbuck looked like a flesh colored incredible Hulk.

Fans of Galactica want Galactica of the TOS, not re-imagined nonsense that doesn't even closely resemble the TOS.

IF they want the established fanbase, they need to appeal to what the established fanbase wants, and stop trying to re-interpret what the fanbase is asking for.

It would be like someone going into a Restaurant, and having the Waitress say "Well Sir, I know you ordered a steak, but from the looks of you, it might be better if I give you this salad instead, because, as the surgeon General has recommended, people of your size you'd be worried about their weight"

Shine that. IF the Producers of these Revivals would go to the Fans and take what the fans say, and make what the fans want, then they would be able to count on those fanbases.

Tom DeSanto was willing to do that with Galactica.

Trendmaster toys, geez....
LordStarFyre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 11:49 AM   #17
Hito
Warrior
 
Hito's Avatar
 
Veteran
Fleets Warrior

Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: PAX Amerikana
Posts: 396

Default

well I dont know how you mean it was a re-imagination.
The Maximum Press comic book story was a "Continuaiton".
The ship designs had just evolved over the 20 years where the story picks up and the character redesigns were done for legal reasons not creative ones.

Again this illustrates a reason for a studio to shy away from a continuaiton.
The original fanbase has had 25 years of coming up with there own ideas of how a continuaiton "should" be done.
So even if a producer comes aboard with the intention to revive the original series, nothing they do will be able to live up to that expectation.
Ask DeSanto he knows that for a certanty.

It is like when Lucas did the Prequels.
SW fans had had years to speculate and conjecture about the history of the Jedi, the origens of the sith, the rise of the empire and fall of the republic.
Years of comics, RPGs and novles that fleshed out the SW universe.
To the SW "Fan base" Lucas couldnt do any better than what they had already come up with.

So back to Galactica.

We already know that Fans dont accept the planned direction for Galactica's second season. (a continuation)
G: 80 was a continuaiton that fans did not accept...
Hatch's Books are a continuaiton that not all the fans accept....
Maximum Press does a contounation but it is also not accepted....
Tom Desanto begins a continuaiton project. Again it is not fully embraced by the "fan base"...

So what should the money people at the studio think?
4.5 continuation scenerios non of them totaly accepted by the "Fan Base"


But about the toys.
The Colonial figures and Equipment looked stupid, but the Cylons and Raiders were cool.
Hito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 11:50 AM   #18
ststeven11
Guest
 
ststeven11's Avatar
 
Posts: n/a

Default

Even if SciFi/Ron Moore's BSG does air, I see it as (hopefully) nothing more than a setback as long as the fan base continues to thrive. Lots of franchises have survived strange and sometimes perilous episodes during long and profitable runs. The Bond franchise had "Never Say Never Again," and "Casino Royale." Highlander had Highlander 2: The Quickening. Halloween had Halloween 3: Season of the Witch. There's still many "if's" lying around this new and still very fragile production. IF the mini ever becomes a finished product, IF the mini airs, IF the mini is picked up as a series, etc. Let Terry Gilliam's attempt to film "The Man Who Killed Quixote" serve as an example of how projects--in this case a MAJOR production--can suddenly fizzle out (there's a documentary about it called "Lost in La Mancha"). He had assembled a crew, the cast was set and he had even begun shooting. Anything can and will happen, just ask Murphy.

That being said, if BSG 2003 does air, it will certainly damage the hopes of a continuation of TOS.

There's always hope!
  Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 12:18 PM   #19
Erzengel
Guest
 
Erzengel's Avatar
 
Posts: n/a

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Hito
Tom Desanto begins a continuaiton project. Again it is not fully embraced by the "fan base"...
Why wasn't it fully embraced by the fanbase?

And as for the comics they changed those so often it was hard to figure out what they were doing with them. One week they'd have a good storyline going with a continuation, then they would turn completely around and do another continuation going in a whole new direction.

I have one group of comics that have the adventures of the galactica (two comics I think) taking place after the events of the hand of god, several that takes place 20-40 years later that has the galactica goto earth and find some ancient pyramid ships from kobl, another group that had the galactica go back in time to the distruction of the colonies.. none of the story lines where completed BTW.

Last edited by Erzengel; April 2nd, 2003 at 12:24 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 01:26 PM   #20
KJ
Strike Leader
 
KJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,425

Default You LSF and Hito raise very strong points

Quote:
I dont see it that way.
Until Blade hit bigtime there were lots of Comic to Film projects that had been shelved.
Ant the arguement can be made that they were also "a guaranteed moneymaker with a built in fanbase." And most of those "titles" have been constantly in the public consciousness.

Galactica for the most part hasnt been in the public consciousness for 25 years.
And i htink you can look at the success of other revival attempts in diffrent media and see that the financial power of the existing fanbase is not as great as you would think.
Too true, seems the old copyrights issue has always damned the revival of BG and alot of Comic to Film productions as well. Not all rights issues deal with buying out an old studio companies stock of TV copyrighted shows either, deals can be done to ensure a production goes ahead to bring to the screen (TV or Cinema) the intended adaptation. I've asked myself why is NEW LINE CINEMA doing DC comic's "Shazam Captain Marvel" instead of WB which owns the Shazam comic book rights? If anything NEW LINE would adapt any of the Dark Horse Comics and Marvel comic book characters due to the deals and copyrights they own and have.

Same debate applies to the buying of and selling, of these rights so a production can come to be finally made. Lusitan says if Viacom gets sci-fi channel, they can't do a new series due to it being owned by Universal? Nah, someone would always lie in wait to strike and take those rights. As much as the property remains in limbo someone always owns them. Getting the series to come back after this long is murder! As Hito already pointed out :

Quote:
We already know that Fans dont accept the planned direction for Galactica's second season. (a continuation)
G: 80 was a continuaiton that fans did not accept...
Hatch's Books are a continuation that not all the fans accept....
Maximum Press does a continuation but it is also not accepted....
Tom Desanto begins a continuation project. Again it is not fully embraced by the "fan base"...

I say it won't be done right now anyways. Only time this thing was on track was when major Hollywood player Bryan Singer took the reigns for 9 months, with very little news mind you coming out, back in 2001.

The studios have been very unprofessional in handling the property of Battlestar Galactica and they better not make 101 excuses when the crapola they planned fails, so badly they blame the fans or mis-management of the director or producers. It blame is squarely aimed at TPTB, Ron Moore and Bonnie Hammer! and whether they sell or pass the copyrights of BG around the "Merry go-round" again and again what ever the bone headed reason is for messing up the franchise has cost them enough as it is.

I say sell both the Sci-fi Channel, Universal' TV productions, their repeated DVD re-released movies (their endless SE and collector boxsets) and properties to deserving companies who will do something with them.

KJ

nuff said on the matter
KJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 02:43 PM   #21
BST
Snowball, My Angel Baby
 
BST's Avatar
 
COMMAND INSIGNIAAdmin
Colonial Fleets

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Somewhere across the heavens... aka Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 9,184


Default My 2 cents, for what it's worth

The absolute worst thing that can happen when there is no NEWS is that rampant speculation can occur.

True, we all do it (speculate). We all want to try to understand what's going on and we all show our frustration in the "not knowing". There are many truths, stated by the various authors, in the above posts. Of course, we want to put a positive spin on our speculation in the hopes that what we want to happen WILL BE what comes to pass.

Consider, if you will, the following:
  • TRUTH: Vivendi-Universal is in DEEP financial straits.

    TRUTH: Vivendi-Universal has made NO SECRET of the fact that it will need to shed assets in order to get its "financial house" in order.

    TRUTH: There has been widespread speculation about suitors for some, if not all, of Vivendi-Universal's entertainment assets.

    TRUTH: Companies generallly keep a "business as usual" atmosphere even when involved in "restructuring talks", i.e., purchase, sell, spinoff/divestiture, etc.

    TRUTH: Companies making the purchase generally analyze ALL current activities in terms of contract obligations. In some cases, contract obligations are not transferred to the new owner. In these situations, the new owner can cease that activity at a moment's notice.

    TRUTH: Companies involved in such talks generally institute NEWS BLACKOUTS during the negotiations, only breaking silence when the negotiations are concluded. ** This is the one that DRIVES US CRAZY!


    SPECULATION: Considering all of the above, my feeling is that something is MOST DEFINITELY afoot between Vivendi-Universal and a potential suitor for some of their properties. Negotiations must be very near conclusion otherwise, more news would be forthcoming.


    SPECULATION: THIS may have been the "something" that Michael had caught an inkling of and why he can't really say anything definitive. He can't because, frankly, the final chapter hasn't been written yet! (It does make sense that it could be "happy,happy,joy,joy" and at the same time, be especially prone to a "monkey wrench").


    ** SOMETHING ELSE to consider: The purchasing company is generally inclined to, at least, listen to the recommendation of the selling company. You know where I'm going with this one.......we need to dust off the letters, fire up the keyboards, and wait to find out who the new owner is, then kick the blessed things into OVERDRIVE and, re-do the letter campaign. We'll need to go at Light-Speed on this one, folks!!

    (Me thinks the "fat lady" is back in the dressing room, for now).

Well, I'm done, (I know, a collective THANK GOD)!!
I just needed to put all of this into perspective, for me, anyways.

KTFF,

BST
BST is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 02:48 PM   #22
LordStarFyre
Warrior
 
LordStarFyre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 452

Default Provided this all ends with

Bonnie "Broomstick" Hammer, MooreRon, and Eick on the UNEMPLOYMENT line, I'll do whatever it takes to help quicken this along.
LordStarFyre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 08:22 PM   #23
jewels
Stablemaster, Livery Ship
 
jewels's Avatar
 


FORUM STAFFFleet Modertor
Colonial Fleets

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wandering Indiana
Posts: 5,101


Default

BST:
Those savvy folks at http://wwwsavefarscape.com had some letter writing advice. Interesting advice, check out their page, get a good pen out.

Has anyone found some of the speculative posts on SciFi interesting of late?
jewels is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2003, 11:45 PM   #24
KJ
Strike Leader
 
KJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,425

Default On the Sci-Fi Bboards as it is now?

Nope!

KJ
KJ is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
5 Important Lessons Flamingo Girl Galactica Cafe 7 November 2nd, 2003 09:39 AM
Urgent! Important News S0s thomas7g Conventions 17 October 24th, 2003 09:26 AM
An Important Soapbox Rant TwoBrainedCylon The Last Battlestar......Galactica! 9 July 27th, 2003 01:28 PM
POLL (Very important): BG Prequel michaelfaries The Last Battlestar......Galactica! 28 January 19th, 2003 12:16 AM




So sez our Muffit!!!

For fans of the Classic Battlestar Galactica series



COPYRIGHT
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:33 PM. Contact the Fleet - Colonial Fleets - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.11, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content and Graphics ©2000-Present Colonial Fleets
The Colonial Fleets Forums are run by Battlestar Galactica fans, paid for by Battlestar Galactica fans, for the enjoyment of fellow Battlestar Galactica fans.



©2000-2008 Colonial Fleets