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Old October 30th, 2005, 01:35 PM   #1
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Default Thoughts On Cbsg Ground Combat

After rewatching the DVD set, especially 'LL', 'Experiment' and 'Baltars Escape', I've come to some interesting conclusions about ground combat in the CBSG universe....Please feel free to comment.

One of the truisms of ground warfare is that you tune your weapons and tactics to defeat your main opponent. Given what we can see in the canon shows(to date), how do both sides stack up, and what can we reasonably speculate on and extrapolate too?


INDIVIDUAL CYLON CENTURION GROUND COMBAT CAPABILITIES

First, we need to examine what appears to be a discontinuity: Cylon Centurions are feared opponents in ground combat, yet from most of what we see, they appear slow-moving and rather clumsy...yet, at other times, they appear remarkably quick and agile.

I think that the answer is that Centurions have a limited internal power supply, and usually run themselves on a lower setting to conserve energy, only switching their "hi-speed" systems on when they know action is imminent.

This means that they would have an auxiliary power supply to give them a "turbo-charge" boost in the event of ambush, while using a larger, longer-lasting(and thus, heavier) power pack when they are engaging in "assault"-type operations. While not the best of arrangements, we have to remember that every system involves trade-offs: the larger power packs likely limit the Centurion's load-bearing capacity, and would be a prime target for Colonial Infantry, where the smaller "turbo-booster" packs are likely internal units.

This explains how we see Centurion units reacting very slowly to ambushes("Young Lords" and "LL"), while in situations like the gunfights in "Lost Warrior" and various one-off scenes in other episodes, Centurions seem to move with considerable agility and speed.

Turning to Cylon weapons, the average Centurion appears optimized for a straight-up infantry fight, carrying a laser/blaster rifle and a sword for close combat, and does not appear to employ any indirect fire weapons like grenade launchers or mortars at the level of the individual Centurion.

Although we never see Cylon combat vehicles in the canon episodes, they would likely employ some kind of fragmentation weapon similar to a current-US issue Mk19 40mm grenade machinegun (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mk19.htm), as such fragments would be highly lethal to humans, who would only be able to employ limited personal armor protection.


COLONIAL WARRIOR INFANTRY

This would also explain why the Colonials do not seem to use such indirect or fragmentation weapons: their utility against Cylon Centurions would not be worth their weight. However, a "Claymore"-type landmine using something like Napalm or white Phosphorus might be in the inventory.

The only time we see something approaching Colonial Infantry is in "Baltars Escape'('BE'), when an "assault team" deploys to the landing bay and prepares to assault the shuttlecraft where the Council are being held.

Adama, Tigh and Siress Tinia seem fully confident in the ability of this assault team to gain entry to the shuttle, but wisely choose another avenue when they discover that the shuttle has been wired to blow.

The mission of this assault team is a classic HRT(Hostage Rescue Team) operation of the type performed by police SWAT and military Special Forces units. Interestingly, they do not appear to carry any kind of explosive charges(RL units employ "flash-bang" grenades to temporarily stun the targets).

BE is also the first time we see any Colonial infantry weapon other than a pistol. The Colonial rifle appears to be a small, fast-cycling energy weapon that seems to employ a form of electrical/particle accelerator technology that would be very lethal to humans(if not set to a low-power 'stun' rating) and likely catastrophic to Cylons.

The rifles appear to be blocky, box-like arrangments with a simple trigger group and stock, and very crude-appearing sights. Since(based on BE) the weapons appear to be essentially recoilless, they would not need complicated sighting units, as their fire would be line-of-sight.

Interestingly, the assault team wears a type of helmet that is considerably different from a Viper pilots' helmet. This makes sense, as the Viper helmet, where is likely works quite well in a cockpit, would be a disaster in ground action.

Equaly interesting is that the Colonial team does not appear to wear body armor; if the rifles are electro/particla accelerators, this would make sense, as any armor able to deflect/degrade a shot would probably be too cumbersome for infantry/commando work.


GROUND COMBAT VEHICLES AND SUPPORT WEAPONS

Other than the Landrams carried by the Galactica, we do not see any ground combat vehicles in the canon series. This is unfortunate, but perfectly reasonable given the circumstances.

We do know, from 'Saga', that Landrams can be armed with "laser cannons"; these appear to be similar to a Viper's main battery, but are likely a lighter version - somewhat like the difference between a .50cal heavy machinegun (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m2-50cal.htm) and a 20mm Vulcan gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M61_Vulcan).

Based on what appears to be the general thrust of technology in CBSG, I do not believe that either the Colonials or the Cyolns would employ weapons that we know as mortars, "tube-" or rocket-artillery; battlefield radar technology would render such weapons largely obsolete, as their fire would be almost instantly back-tracked, and counter-battery fire would swiftly destroy the firing weapon.

This means that any combat vehicles will be small, fast and maneuverable, employing either a large-ish direct-fire energy weapon, a cannon-like projectile launcher, or a mass-driver-type accelerator; such a vehicle would bear a striking resemblance to a Royal Swedish Army S-Tank: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/lsm/dhmg/s103.html

This has extremely important implications for ground warfare in CBSG, as the lack of major combat vehicles cuts deeply into the logistical requirement: if you only need to resupply minimal-weight personal equipment, food/water(for humans, power cells and spare parts for Cylons), and very limited ammunition requirements, operations will be very fast-moving and hard on the humans.

For the Colonials, they would need a vehicle that functioned like the US M113 (http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...round/m113.htm) in that it would need to have a base-line drive train and a "bed" section allowing for a series of modular, multi-function units; in fact, given the need for extensive CAS(Close Air Support) in view of the likely lack of indirect artillery, there would likely be a ratio of 1/1/1 of combat/air defense/support vehicles.

The only real difference with Cylon vehicles would be a slightly more diverse weapons' suite, employing the aforementioned grenade machinguns.

Both sides would likely employ individual-portable direct-fire weapons sufficient to knock out vehicles, similar to the Russian-designed RPG: http://www.g2mil.com/RPG.htm and http://www.military.com/ContentFiles/BHDequipmentrpg ; these would also be effective in deploying flame agents(for the Colonials against the Cylons; see: M202A1 http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...lame/M202.html) and fragmentation warheads(for the Cylons).

Both sides would also likely employ heavy, fast-cycling energy weapons similar in employment concept to General Purpose Machine Guns(GPMGs) like the US M60A3(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m60e3.htm) and the Russian RPD(http://www.lcompanyranger.com/RPD.htm). While of limited effectivness against Vipers or Raiders, they would be highly useful against infantry.


COMMANDO OPERATIONS

While it may seem that the definitive word on Colonial infantry is expressed in "LL, Pt 2", this is not the case.

This sequence was a highly-specialized form of warfare; in fact, the Colonial team did not need to be encumbered by anything more than what they were carrying; their primary mission was to destroy equipment and confuse the Cylon command structure in order to allow the fuel shuttles to land and load their cargo of refined Tylium.

Given the above, while very interesting form a strictly technical standpoint, the commando operation in "LL" is not a very good yardstick for general ground combat.
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Old October 31st, 2005, 06:04 PM   #2
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There simply isn't enough information to go on. Aside from the Landram (which I consider to be a rough equivalent to the Bradley Fighting Vehicle) we are shown very little in the way of ground operations by either side.

There HAD to be some sort of Colonial infantry with associated heavy weapons and armored vehicles. Battlestars and Vipers cannont take and hold a planet. They can only work toward aerospace superiority, providing an environment for the infantry to work in relatively undisturbed by air attack.

I don't consider this lack of information to be a shortcoming of TOS (or TNS for that matter). It can be safely assumed, IMHO, that the infantry and their associated equipment were wiped out during the war/sneak attack.

Kinda works the same way as "why don't we see any Colonial support vessels?". We don't see them because they were destroyed.
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Old November 1st, 2005, 05:16 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warhammerdriver
There simply isn't enough information to go on. Aside from the Landram (which I consider to be a rough equivalent to the Bradley Fighting Vehicle) we are shown very little in the way of ground operations by either side.

There HAD to be some sort of Colonial infantry with associated heavy weapons and armored vehicles. Battlestars and Vipers cannont take and hold a planet. They can only work toward aerospace superiority, providing an environment for the infantry to work in relatively undisturbed by air attack.

I don't consider this lack of information to be a shortcoming of TOS (or TNS for that matter). It can be safely assumed, IMHO, that the infantry and their associated equipment were wiped out during the war/sneak attack.

Kinda works the same way as "why don't we see any Colonial support vessels?". We don't see them because they were destroyed.
See Post #3:

http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums...t=12064&page=1
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Old November 4th, 2005, 08:27 AM   #4
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Hi, great thread btw.
Here's my thoughts on Cylon centurian infantry.

The Cylon tactics have many comparisons in our own history. Think of WW1 and the troops marching across no-mans-land into machinegun fire, seemingly heedless of the danger.

The Cylons are not stupid, they are great warriors. They march into battle heedless of the danger to show that they are worthy of advancement in rank. Centurians who show any cowardice are reduced to 'drones'. Centurians who excell in battle are advanced in rank, with the possibility of eventually becoming command centurians (then perhaps even Imperious Leader). In the same way that 'worker' class Cylons can be advanced to IL series, then even Imperious Leader.
Their battle tactics prove not only their worthyness as warriors, but instill absolute terror in their organic enemies who fear death.

Cylons ALWAYS remove their fallen from the field of battle once they are triumphant.
Therefore any fallen centurians can be repaired and reactivated (even a totally disassembled centurian can be reactivated after he's been in pieces without power for months! see 'Baltars Escape'). So, as long as the battle is won, most Centurians (apart from those whose heads are destroyed) will return from the dead.
With that in mind, ONLY VICTORY MATTERS.
For the Empire and on a personal level.
With each advancement in rank, the Centurians 'AI' mind undergo's a refit containing more complex independant logic components. These go to the best, the bravest, the most efficient. Therefore Cylons who achieve the status of IL series or Command level Centurians have proven themselves worthy by many years of selfless devotion to the Empire, which is why Imperious Leader is chosen from the ranks of these classes and then 're-fitted' with a 'third brain' and the traditional 'reptile-esq' outer armour.

The Centurian carries three weapons.
The 'Rifle' which is a heavy calibre assault weapon with a built-in power supply that makes it the 'weapon of choice' for most situations.
The 'sidearm' which is the equivalent of a pistol (or perhaps thermal lance) is incorporated into their wrist armour on the right arm.
As this shares their internal power, it is suitable for limited use. I believe that the evidence of 'Lost Warrior' shows that their internal power is self-sustaining and almost limitless (from some radioactive isotope) however, it can only produce 'so much' power, and the sidearm in sustained use would drain the re-charge circuits, possibly lessening it's effectivness.
The sword would be the 'close in' weapon of choice, as when deployed in the right hand, the centurians awsome strength would make it a very effective weapon and of course it would be suplimented by the 'wrist gun' giving the Centurian the option to cut, stab, slash or burn opponents stupid enough to go 'hand to hand' with it.
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Old November 4th, 2005, 09:20 AM   #5
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Just my opinion, but I think the primary reason we dont see infantry on BSG is far more simple that "they were destroyed" which btw is a fine thought, but I think is just far too thought out. It more basic and simple. The Gal is a Naval vessel. Just consider, how many infantry are stationed on Naval vessles today? Answer, none. Theres a security detatchment, sure but thats far from a ground force. And unless its a frigget (sp?) which Im told is a destroyer class that is refitted for carrying a small invasion force, most Naval ships simply are not built with troop transport in mind. So its probably that simple, we dont see them because they wernt invited to the party.
As far as tactics, Id say they seem lame on the part of the colonials, quite often, because were seeing fighter pilots with limited E&E training taking on a fighting role that they probably would never take on if all things were as they are supposed to be. But, we know they are not.
On the cylon side, they are like doritos, crunch all ya want we make more. Why bother making fast acting fighting machines when laser guns eventually run out of ammo. They can run cylons off an assembly line faster then the colonials can shoot them. Thats probably why they are feared. They are like roaches, you see one, you know theres a thousand more waiting. And besides, they ahve no fear, they are totally loyal, and they can crush you like a grape even when unarmed. Ask any German soldier from WWII. It isnt about the quality as much as the quantity when your outnumbered a hundred to one.

Just my silly opinion.

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Old November 4th, 2005, 12:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabitha
Just my opinion,
<snip>
As far as tactics, Id say they seem lame on the part of the colonials, quite often, because were seeing fighter pilots with limited E&E training taking on a fighting role that they probably would never take on if all things were as they are supposed to be. But, we know they are not.
<snip>
Just my silly opinion.

tabbi
Tabbi,

Nothing silly about it....You know more than most.

"Frigates" used to be the premier combat ship in the Age of Sail(ref: "Master and Commander"). Frigates in those days were often used to transport troops for invasions, as they had a shallower draft than the huge ships of the line.

Frigates fell out of use around the end of the 19th Century, when the big-gun battleship became the only game in town. It wasn't until WW2 in the US that you start seeing purpose-built amphib-assault ships; the frigate-equivalvent then was called a "destroyer escort". Modern frigates are used as picket vessels, and in truth, they're on thier way out, in favor of destroyers, which are heavier, and carry a better weapons' suite.

You hit the nail on the head with your comment on the Viper pilot's poor ground tactics - they might be good pilots, but fighting on the ground is not their forte.

Anyone want to speculate on how many times a laser pistol can fire before reloading? Or a laser rifle?
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Old November 4th, 2005, 07:43 PM   #7
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Once upon a time TSR (the original printer of the D&D series of games) published a game called Gamma World. Laser weapons were common.

Anyway, somewhere packed in a box after my move this summer is my copy. I'll try to track it down this weekend so we can look at the power usage and we can get a rough idea of how many shots/power pack.

Anyone else have GW or possibly MechWarrior (NOT the computer game. The role-playing game set in the BattleTech universe.)? There's personal laser weaponry info in that, too. (I don't own a copy of MW)

Granted these are not BG lasers. However, we could get some kind of idea on how many shots before a "reload" would be needed.
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