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Old February 13th, 2011, 02:24 PM   #1
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Default Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

This is something I had to share. by Paul-Muad-Dib over on deviantart. I posted a link below as he has more stuff to look at. the image is at the bottom of the page.
http://paul-muad-dib.deviantart.com/...et=96#/d1n7iya

From other shows like SAAB, or Batman. all great stuff.

anyway I have been thinking that with all the great models in
CGI and the extensive knowledge base here. how about doing a new Tech manual. we once talked about it before.

Some of you know I have been doing some scale testing with Folkrms excellent Galactica model.
look here. http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums...ad.php?t=17741
and I feel (at least for me) that the established scale of 2000ft as canon is a load of bunk, and from my part proved to me at least the scale by Glen Larson (Producer) and John Dykstra (VFX supervisor) of 6080ft is the right one.


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OK I have 2 projects in mind for this year.

1. Creating a Colonial fleet and Cylon Empire tech manuals

2. Creating a Fan Film (longer and more doubtful project as I dont have all the pieces yet)

the first one is very possible and I could start some aspect of it in a few weeks once my present project is finished.


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So who would be willing to help as your time permits for the Tech manual.

Members to build the knowledge base up.
by doing the research and expanding on it.

If you can model and have time to build some er models,
Sets, Ships, Lasers. Images. CGI engine parts like in the image posted ETC. ETC. ETC.

if your interested Post here that you can help (of course its understood that you have real lives (how dare you) and that
takes priority.






Attached Images
File Type: jpg Viper_MK_II_in_Color_by_Paul_Muad_Dib.jpg (144.6 KB, 16 views)
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Old February 13th, 2011, 03:56 PM   #2
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

Take a walk through the Gallery... specifically the Diagrams section. Anything there that can help?

You need to make a list of what you want. Canon OS stuff only, or OS era fan designs as well?

Color? B&W?
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Old February 13th, 2011, 10:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

Myself and one of the others here came up with this for the 14th Colony Fanfilm project:

http://www.floatingbadger.com/Downlo...%20Lexicon.pdf

We were planning on reworking it into a more serious project called the Colonial Warrior Teknikon, but RL events overtook us. It is about 40-50% done, in note form, on my system here.
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Old February 14th, 2011, 02:15 AM   #4
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior View Post
Take a walk through the Gallery... specifically the Diagrams section. Anything there that can help?

You need to make a list of what you want. Canon OS stuff only, or OS era fan designs as well?

Color? B&W?
Yes I have been looking though the Gallery and was delighted to see so much. I would like to see both Canon and Fan works
in the manual.

I am working out what I/we need to do.

I had so many models from members here that where lost in a crash (my fault for never backing them up).

This is what I dont want to do. very little modelling for a start as we have much of the work already done.

lets expand the Colonial universe.

We have, this is a tentative list in CGI lightwave obj etc
1. Battlestar Galactica by Folkrm.
2. Vipers
3. Shuttle
4. Cylon Raiders
6. Cylon Basestar
7. Other fleet ships
8. Landram (mine unless a better one comes along)

What we / I need

1. Galactica Laser Cannons large and small. (mine was lost)
2. The Galactica Sets, Corridors, Bridge, etc. (I can do some)
3. Colonial Laser Pistols and a proposed Laser Rifle.
4. Reworked landing bay. use mine as a starting point and fix
5. there are other things but I will have to really get a list going ..

suggestions here please
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Old February 14th, 2011, 02:16 AM   #5
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarMachine View Post
Myself and one of the others here came up with this for the 14th Colony Fanfilm project:

http://www.floatingbadger.com/Downlo...%20Lexicon.pdf

We were planning on reworking it into a more serious project called the Colonial Warrior Teknikon, but RL events overtook us. It is about 40-50% done, in note form, on my system here.
Great starting point.

will be very useful

more of this
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Old February 14th, 2011, 05:25 AM   #6
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

I found my model of the Galactica cannons I thought I lost it..



this I will continue to work on
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Old February 14th, 2011, 06:37 AM   #7
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

Here is one idea.

1. Anyone want to calculate the crew complement for the Battlestar or its possible tonnage based on the a Battlestar been 6080 feet long ?
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Old February 14th, 2011, 04:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

I have a partially completed colonial pistol that I posted WIP's from here last year. I'll also offer my launching bay stuff.

As for crew compliment of a battlestar, I estimate around 5,000. The galactica does not seem to be very crowded and appears to have large areas with few or no personnel. I dont believe an earth Navy ship is a practical comparison at all.
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Old February 15th, 2011, 01:38 AM   #9
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher454 View Post
I have a partially completed colonial pistol that I posted WIP's from here last year. I'll also offer my launching bay stuff.

As for crew compliment of a battlestar, I estimate around 5,000. The galactica does not seem to be very crowded and appears to have large areas with few or no personnel. I dont believe an earth Navy ship is a practical comparison at all.
awesome... were starting to cook now.. the Tech manual is a cert. thanks for the input Punisher.

the Pistol and the launch bay stuff is one area I wont have to build and I thank you for that.

5000 Operations crew. Standard

15000 Mission Specific, troops and equipments etc.
there could be empty barracks on Battlestars etc

anyone want to start braking that down into components.

ie

Operations
Engineering
Flight
etc

here is an idea for a viper complement 75 to 150 as per mission specs .


One of the things I going to try to do is make a rough cross section to see how many shuttle and Vipers could fit.

nice work
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Old February 20th, 2011, 12:04 PM   #10
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

"Tonnage" is relative - you'd need to establish a standard that is unaffected by gravity.

Speaketh the Grognard: Work on this has already been done within the Traveller community, since the RTF is a good trope for a Trav campaign...and since I'm one of the users of that trope, I'm in a unique position to outline it.

When Marc Miller and GDW were designing the Traveller rpg, their standard was one displacement-ton of LHy -- it's base component is the most common in existence, it liquefies at a fixed temperature, has a fixed mass, and occupies a fixed volume.

In order to make it work for the game, they rounded a little, coming to 14 cubic () meters; their standard deckplan grid, however, was a square, 1.5x1.5 meters, with two squares equaling one d-ton. (Note that this was actually four cubes, all 1.5mX1.5mX1.5m, measured volumetrically), totaling 13.5cu meters. To give an idea of scale, a 200 d-ton cargo cargo bay can hold 20-25 40' semi trailers; similarly, a Los Angeles-class attack submarine (e.g., USS Dallas, from 'The Hunt for Red October') is roughly 660 d-tons (it's weird, because it's a tapering cylinder with an oddly-shaped sail).

Based on this, the Gator runs to roughly 60-75K d-tons, roughly a heavy cruiser or strike carrier in Trav. Since it carries a fairly heavy anti-capitol ship battery, I peg the Gator as being roughly equivalent to the Imperial Japanese Navy's (IJN) battleship Ise (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/att...px-ise1944.png) in function, although the Gator has a much larger fighter compliment, which is a consequence of its design.

This brings up the question of "How many Vipers?" I peg it as a maximum - allowing for shuttles - compliment of c.130, organized as four squadrons of 32, subdivided into 2 16-ship wings. This is so that it meshes with the 16 launch tubes outboard of both bays - the 'alert squadron' would be sitting on the rails, ready to launch en masse, while the others would be 'at the ready' - and with the visuals on-screen of 20+ fighters when a single squadron is referred to...IOW, when you hear "Launch Blue Squadron", all 32 of Blue's Viper's are going out of the tubes, from both sides of the ship, because you don't want split commands under fire -- Blue launches, then Silver Spar, then Red, etc.

This compliment would be cut in half if the Gator were transporting troops, since the troops would require shuttlecraft and berthing space.

Crew-wise, for a strike-carrier (which is how the Gal is set up in SASW), figure 130 Viper pilots, plus 12-20 shuttle pilots (two crew per shuttle, minimum, for 6-10 shuttles), c.700 flight crew and Viper/Shuttle maintenance (c.6 maintenance crew per ship, possible due to higher technology, and lower maintenance requirements), c.100 "bridge" crew (based on multiple watches of 20 Warriors each, which is the minimum seen during bridge shots), a minimum 700-Warrior Engineering section (engines, life support, computer, electronic/electrical systems, minimum 2 watches), a 50-Warrior unit of Security/Infantry/Commando and a 50 Warrior Medical section.....Call it about 1700 - 2000 permanent crew, with a possible emergency capacity of 2500-3000 (it's a warship, not a liner).

Again, note that these are maximum figures, as rigged for Viper operations. The numbers would change if the ship were carrying a lot of infantry/drop troops.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 12:21 PM   #11
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

Interesting figures WarMachine. took me a few to work out what SASW ..

I am working with the Galactica been 6080ft long or 1 nautical mile.

A modern US Aircraft carrier has over 5000 crew as I understand would
not a vessel to that scale carry more.

to use another scifi warship. Star Wars Imperial Star Destroyer has over 37.000 crew and they are almost the same scale...

they have no robots as in Star Wars for maintenance so it would all have to be done by human.

I think for the scale I thinking of the crew would be larger.

what do you think ?
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Old February 20th, 2011, 05:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

I used to play traveller a lot back in the day. My favorite part of the game was actually building starships, since it was sort of a solo engineering challenge.
The cool thing about traveller ship design is that you cant just do it "Star Trek" style and build just anything and make up some BS as to how it works.

Traveller ship design rules wont work directly for Galactica, since traveller ships cary large amounts of hydrogen for their "jump" drives. but is someone was to adapt the traveller system to the Galactica universe it could be used as a great tool for designing the interiors of the ships in BSG.

As for galactica crew compliment, I dont think ship size alone would dictate the size of the crew. I think no more than 10,000 people would be needed. If size alone dictated crew size then Super tankers would need enormous crews, but ships like that have very small crews. there are only just so many jobs to do on a ship.
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Old February 21st, 2011, 01:16 AM   #13
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Punisher454 View Post

As for galactica crew compliment, I dont think ship size alone would dictate the size of the crew. I think no more than 10,000 people would be needed. If size alone dictated crew size then Super tankers would need enormous crews, but ships like that have very small crews. there are only just so many jobs to do on a ship.
I agree to that. CBSG4ever started a dedicated thread to this discussion Colonial Fleets Battlestar Stats

http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums...ad.php?t=17777

CBSG4ever mentioned 7000 crew and your saying the top amount should be 10,000 standard Crew.. I think this is a good suggestion
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Old February 21st, 2011, 05:00 AM   #14
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

In my mind, with a big ship, the equipment gets larger, but the number of people to maintain/operate it doesn't grow at a linear rate as you increase size. Also the galactica is always shown sparsely populated compared to something like an airccraft carrier or submarine.
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Old February 21st, 2011, 05:22 AM   #15
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

in my thinking that the bulk of the Galactica Crew would be made up of Support crew, more than combat warriors.
Quote:
Also the galactica is always shown sparsely populated compared to something like an airccraft carrier or submarine.
I issue down to budget more than anything else I think. and it is a big ship that would need many engineers to deal with it esp during and after battle.. the warriors would be fighting the support crews
well supporting

Could one of the mods merge this thread with.
Colonial Fleets Battlestar Stats started by CBSG4ever
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Old February 24th, 2011, 07:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

Sorry it took so long to get back here -- the job hunt does not cease.

I agree with Punisher454 -- Star Wars uses a LOT of "hyper-tech". On a scale of technology ratings, where we - Earth/Terra, c.2011 - are about Tech Level 8 - 9 (there's some weird swings in the scales, but 8 - 9 is a good average), I see the Colonies at about 10 - 12. Star Wars is easily 14 - 15, verging into 16+, in places.

What that translates into is that we Terrans are maybe 100-200 years (no more than 300-500) behind the Colonies and Cylons, but we are easily 1,000 years (at LEAST) or more behind Star Wars. While a Star Destroyer could very well have 37K troops and crew aboard, I seriously doubt that the Galactica could smoosh in 1/3 of that number.

On that note, and kudo's to Punisher454 for pointing that out, while we can be fairly certain that "Solium" = "Hydrogen", we have no clue what "Tylium" is -- meaning that we do not know it's power output, handling/storage requirements, reactivity, etc. - we can't write a HAZMAT sheet for it, basically, because we have no data on it's use, beyond that it is what makes the Gal go FTL.

However, we can surmise a few things based on LL/Pt.2.

In the second part of the ep, a combined commando/raider team from both battlestars paradrop onto Gomorray to suppress Cylon defenses with a "decapitation strike" against their command center, so that a strike unit of Vipers and Shuttles can land to raid the Tylium bunkers...and we actually see the shuttle teams pouring out of the shuttles, heading into the facility to swipe Tylium.

The only equipment that the raiders are carrying appear to be something like 5-gallon buckets, and all of them are carrying at least two. Even assuming a "bucket brigade" relay, Tylium can't be that heavy in near-Terrestrial gravity, since none of the raiders are wearing any kind of strength-enhancing exoskeletons.

In the context of ship design, then, I'm fairly sure that the two big bulges underneath the Gal are Solium tanks - BIG ones...probably bigger than a similarly-sized civilian ship, since the Solium would be the real-space fuel. Assuming that Tylium is stable, but delicate (which I wrote into my "Fields" story), it won't take up that much space...

.....So, what does all this mean? Most ships designed realistically are going to be mostly fuel, especially warships, since they need to burn vast amounts while maneuvering in action. (I can post links if you really want me to...it's pretty dry stuff.)

Additionally, since humans tend to consume a lot of resources, you need to account for cargo spaces to store food and sundries. Civilian ships won't have massive holds crammed with food and water but military vessels have to. (One of the few things about "a certain show" that I liked was their inclusion of water tanks.)

Then, you have to look at what the ship is supposed to do.

The Gal is a carrier with capitol ship weaponry. Her primary mission is delivery and support of Vipers and troops to a battle area, and the design is actually very well-thought out to support that mission. You're going to have more crew than a similar-sized civilian vessel, but not too many more -- not only for the reasons above, but also because you don't want too many troops in one basket, to be killed together. Any more troops/crew than I outlined above, even bumping small-ship maintenance crews up to 10/Viper or Shuttle, would end up sitting around, twiddling their thumbs and getting in the way...although I would add an additional 300-500 crew specifically assigned to Damage Control.

I can't really see a hole, there, even for a mile-long warship.

The current crew of a 'Nimitz'-type carrier is around 5,000 -- but our ships require a LOT more maintenance than I think the Colonial military would tolerate (due to lower technology), they are operating in an open, 'shirt sleeve' environment, and replenish their water supply continuously, as well as having periodic (every 1 - 3 months) at-sea/underway replenishment of food, which would be VERY tricky to pull off with the Colonial Fleet, since you can't exactly string a transfer cable across space easily...which is why is seems that the Gal usually serves what look like field rations, except at official functions.
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Old February 25th, 2011, 03:19 AM   #17
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

WarMachine. I agree that 37.000 crew is to much for our Battlestar universe for sure. it was just an example of the
kind of numbers that another large ship has although in another
universe.

I completely agree on all the points you made about food and stores. I would say like the USA aircarft carriers are restocked
regularly too feed thousands of hungry crewmen and women.

I cannot see during a battle situation where any crew would be sitting around twiddling their thumbs. but would have battle station duties...

they would be on fire control duties or helping moving stores or whatever around the ship...

but I still think or believe that as there are no real automated
droids or other system that we can call on to move stores or equipment. its hands on by crews.

too small a crew and your underpowered

even say with the minimum number I like 7000 crew. there is a ton of space on the Galactica to swing a cat and most of these crew men would be in barracks around the ship.

some crew would be in fix positions,
Bridge Crew:
Engineering Crew: Main Engines team
Maintenance Crew: perhaps bulk of the crew are these.
Damage fire-control:
Security Crew:
Viper Support crew: (once Vipers are launched possibly would take up damage control duties within in the launch bays etc

with 3 shifts assuming they use 24 hour system. perhaps the Viper Support crews are only on full duty when on alert.

but just some ideas...

I agree to with your placement of
Quote:
In the context of ship design, then, I'm fairly sure that the two big bulges underneath the Gal are Solium tanks - BIG ones...probably bigger than a similarly-sized civilian ship, since the Solium would be the real-space fuel. Assuming that Tylium is stable, but delicate
we will look at that....I have thought that Tylium is the nearest thing to antimatter without it been antimatter

thanks for the feed back its helping to flesh out the possibility
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Old February 25th, 2011, 10:53 AM   #18
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
Bridge Crew:
Engineering Crew: Main Engines team
Maintenance Crew: perhaps bulk of the crew are these.
Damage fire-control:
Security Crew:
Viper Support crew: (once Vipers are launched possibly would take up damage control duties within in the launch bays etc
Note that these numbers are the fully-manned load-out; the Gal at Cimtar was likely operating with about 80% of these.

Bridge Crew: 80, total, in 3 shifts, including computer operators like Komma
Engineering Crew: 700
..*Solium Drive team: 300
..*Tylium Drive team: 100
..*Maintenance team: 300 (General systems maintenance throughout the ship)
Damage control: 500 (Stand in for Engineering Crew during non-Combat Alert watch periods; posts are in Damage Control Teams of 8-10 Warriors spread throughout the ship during General Quarters)
Medical/Life Center: 120 (Both in Life Center, and as roving medics in combat)
Security Team: 60, in 5 squads of 10, rotating shifts different from the crew, plus a 10 Warrior HQ team
Viper Pilots/Shuttle Crew: 120 (There is overlap in qualifications, so the two are counted together)
Viper Support crew: 1110 -- based on 10 maintenance crew per Viper or Shuttle, with 3 squadrons of 32 Vipers each (96 total), plus 14 extra Vipers (half-strength maintenance crews, as they are not used as often) for senior officers, training, scouting and as replacement airframes, plus 10 Shuttles (This includes launch crews and machine shop operators; actual wrench turners are likely about 4 per frame)

Total: 2,690

Note that this does not include embarked combat troops, or emergency berthing. Emergency/Troop berthing is probably double capacity, or 5,380, inclusive.

The Viper crews will only handle Damage Control on the flight deck if there's damage. After all Vipers are away, they are scrambling to move ammunition and fuel packets to ready-load stations, prepping the catapults for fast relaunch, and readying emergency gear to cut Viper pilots out of damaged hulls when they pancake on landing under fire to refuel/rearm, then shove the damaged craft out of the way.

Consumables are probably sufficient for 3 - 6 months when leaving port for an extended deployment/patrol, to minimize the need for cross-decking in "Injun Country".

The numbers work because of the technology and because of the space available -- there is only so much space for crew/troops, and only so much in the way of consumables that it can hold, as well as there only being so much surface area on ships and spaces to work on.

Additionally, you have to account for the capitol ship weaponry -- if it is shooting missiles the size of a Titan III (going by the stock footage), and has more than two, that's a LOT of space, internally.

Clearly, the Colonies are advanced over us technologically, but that doesn't mean that their philosophy is to pack useless crew aboard -- the reason it is listed as "Emergency/Troop Berthing" is that those extra people have no assigned duties aboard ship that are related to ship operations...in combat, their "job" is to remain in their quarters, and try not to die as the Cylons pound the ship. That, and I see a LOT of empty spaces on the ship, even under General Quarters.

As to moving supplies internally, except on a troopship, that doesn't happen very often, and on troopships it only happens when you're about to land. There is too little space aboard to futz around with moving things willy-nilly -- "Aliens" was a cool movie, but aimlessly shifting crates about the flight deck is a good way to blow something up when it shouldn't....Thus showing the wisdom of the design, as separate flight ops bays minimize the danger of completely losing your operational capability to catastrophic stupidity or bad luck -- as we see several times, specifically in "Fire on Space".
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Old February 25th, 2011, 11:30 AM   #19
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

I am impressed with your thinking on it...

I still believe that 2,690 crew is undermanned.

I also think that 60 security on a ship as big as a Battlestar is to small it is a war ship and I think would have a substantial warrior contingent what would handle this area.

I dont like the technological advancement is reason to assume it will sort out all the areas running a battlestar
size ship. That is to Star Trekish for my taste. esp TNG
which I could not stand from that point of view.

I see the Battlestars like Star destroyers, been equipped for any possible encounter including troops as part of it standard complement.

Solium Drive team: 300
Tylium Drive team: 100

this are ok figures

but I disagree with
Maintenance team: 300 I find that undermanned

additionally I dont believe that Crew that are unassigned would be sitting in there billets sitting out a battle... they would be assigned some duty station. perhaps to augment the damage control teams .
Quote:
Additionally, you have to account for the capitol ship weaponry -- if it is shooting missiles the size of a Titan III (going by the stock footage), and has more than two, that's a LOT of space, internally.
ah yes... this for me is another Gray area. where are they fired from ... any ideas... personally I never liked the inclusion of those in BSG. but given the scale I been looking at over the last few weeks easy to accommodate. depending on the amount stored.

Komma I dont have a clue what that is ....
Quote:
The Viper crews will only handle Damage Control on the flight deck if there's damage. After all Vipers are away, they are scrambling to move ammunition and fuel packets to ready-load stations, prepping the catapults for fast relaunch, and readying emergency gear to cut Viper pilots out of damaged hulls when they pancake on landing under fire to refuel/rearm, then shove the damaged craft out of the way.
Agreed .. and that what I meant but time was against me to explain myself properly.

Quote:
As to moving supplies internally, except on a troopship, that doesn't happen very often, and on troopships it only happens when you're about to land. There is too little space aboard to futz around with moving things willy-nilly -- "Aliens" was a cool movie, but aimlessly shifting crates about the flight deck is a good way to blow something up when it shouldn't....Thus showing the wisdom of the design, as separate flight ops bays minimize the danger of completely losing your operational capability to catastrophic stupidity or bad luck -- as we see several times, specifically in "Fire on Space".
But if they need to move large bodies of whatever they are going to need the number to handle it..

even with say 5000 or 7000 crews on a Battlestar your still going to find lots of space.. empty ... corridor.. where you see no one..

But again these is my thinking of the subject anyway ....

I got this info here
http://science.howstuffworks.com/aircraft-carrier7.htm
Quote:
Jobs are highly varied, just like in a normal city. Approximately 2,500 men and women form the air wing, the people who actually fly and maintain the aircraft. Another 3,000 or so people make up the ship's company, which keeps all parts of the carrier running smoothly -- this includes everything from washing dishes and preparing meals to handling weaponry and maintaining the nuclear reactors.

The ship has everything its residents need to live, even if it's not as comfortably as they would like. There are multiple galleys (kitchens) and mess halls onboard, which collectively serve as many as 18,000 meals a day. The ship also has a sizable laundry facility, dentist and doctor's offices, various stores and a bank of telephones where personnel can talk to their families via satellite.
thanks for the input
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Old February 25th, 2011, 12:36 PM   #20
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

just to help give you all an idea of the scale of the Galactica as covered in other threads
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Old February 25th, 2011, 02:28 PM   #21
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

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just to help give you all an idea of the scale of the Galactica as covered in other threads
Taranis -

Putting the actual scale into a more realistic perspective makes some CGI efforts on the wrong end of things. One of which would be the CGI footage recently posted here at CF. When you look at the size of the landing bay in relation to the size of the craft enterint it, the bay is scaled way too small.

An interesting comparison in those pics...!

Bryan
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Old February 25th, 2011, 03:37 PM   #22
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Default Re: Cut away Viper and CF Project idea

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Taranis -

Putting the actual scale into a more realistic perspective makes some CGI efforts on the wrong end of things. One of which would be the CGI footage recently posted here at CF. When you look at the size of the landing bay in relation to the size of the craft enterint it, the bay is scaled way too small.

An interesting comparison in those pics...!

Bryan
Yeah my original bay is too small. Titon pointed that out before among others

But my new one will be based on the model above. I be making a start on that in a few days I hope. but I will be
expanding on the look of the bay as all we see is the area around the entrance.

the Galactica is at the 6080ft scale as mentioned by GL and JD ...
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