Some Personal Thoughts

[BST]

Originally Posted by Mustex

And you've failed to provide an example of another way it could be interpretted.

It does appear that you want an answer so, here it is.

The comment portrays to me the height of arrogance - there have been some very good science fiction shows produced since Twilight Zone. This new show may appeal to you but, to me it's just not that good and most assuredly does not deserve such a lofty status assigned to it.

That is what the comment says to me.

[nextceo]

I'm finishing up on this thread... It is just degenerating to much. Honestly I don't feel the need anymore to defend why RDM made the decisions he did. I'm a Christian (and conservative republican) myself and enjoy the show. I feel it is a good piece of writing and an excellent show and don't feel it has to totally fit within my "moral compass" to enjoy it. I recognize it for what it is, a science fiction show. I do not see any bias one way or the other from Moore politically in the show. If I wanted to see it I certainly could (as in anything you can see what you want), but I feel it is pretty neutral and trying to show two different sides and it can only do so much in 13 episodes. It is no way a Fahrenheit 911 and I see no where were the show says that the colonials "had it coming." While based on situations in current world it is also a work of fiction. I do not feel it is "unethical" that RDM reimagined the show. The show was to be BSG and a reimagining. To use pieces of the old show is a necessity, not a crutch, otherwise it wouldn't be BSG. However it was changed in a way to have a different flavor. I've worked on new promotional videos for companies where they are redoing one from 10 years ago. What do I do, I keep what I feel works and what worked for the company, but change it to fit the times and what I as an artist see as my vision for that original work. Its the same universe I'm working in but I change it significantly to fit current viewers. Its not a crutch or unethical to do this. Why would I change the things that work? But I improve on the things I feel need to be changed. Then sometimes I totally redo what was done before, it depends on the situation. There are also nods the original series, this isn't a crutch but an homage to what came before. RDM encourages fans to write fanfic and change the TNS story as much as they want.

My simple purpose for writing is to help those that dislike TNS understand that many feel the same feelings towards TNS that they do about TOS. So when they say something spiteful about the show it hurts other people as well and people feel the need to stand up and defend the show. We should enjoy the shows for what they are. And if you don't, that is fine too. Just don't run down someone elses passion because you don't like it. Constructively criticize as most people do, but don't be hateful and lets just agree to disagree. Thats for me on this thread. Thanks!

[Eric Paddon]

Nextceo, I am very disappointed. I gave what I thought was a fair and reasonable response to your post in what I hoped would be an ongoing dialogue on these issues that divide us, and unfortunately you chose to in effect dismiss it in the kind of language that frankly is of the type that prompted my initial post to begin with when I expressed my concerns about how people who feel as I do are becoming stigmitized for the fact that they feel a need to express these views given the situation that exists today.

[nextceo]

Eric, how did I dismiss it? The other things that are going on in this post are what I'm talking about in the degeneration. I responded to a number of the points that you brought up in your response to my post. I appreciate your response and see nothing negative in it. My simple feeling is I don't really know where this is going and feel I'm banging my head against the wall, for the simple fact that I no longer have a desire to change peoples feelings about TNS. If you like it you do, if you don't you don't. I don't see where I used any negative language whatsoever, so I don't understand your saying I'm dismissing your comments (can you show me what I said to get this comment?????). I don't know what else to say. To have a dialog is fine, but other comments in the thread are not furthering the dialog, and I felt it was time for me to say my final say on the matter for now. No disrespect to anyone, I just don't feel the need to defend RDM or anyone else on the new show because I don't see where, no matter what I say, how it is going to make a difference. I have been saying the same things for six months now and it is what it is. Lets see how things play out over the next six months thats all. Again, Eric, I appreciate your passion and respect your feelings and postings, but personally I don't feel the need to put myself through the frustration of trying to explain someone elses decisions (RDM's). I'm not him, I didn't make the decisions, and I don't feel qualified to speak on his behalf. I just love the show. I just don't know what else there is to say...

[Eric Paddon]

First off, you didn't address yourself to me directly which surprised me, because I was making an effort to do so with your post in what I thought was supposed to be an ongoing dialogue. You then addressed my post's points in an offhand manner that I found to be dismissive because it seemed to me that you were more concerned with making a bigger point about how pointless the discussion was becoming and that nothing further could be added to it. And finally, I asked you some questions at the end of the post because I was genuinely interested in your answer to them, and you didn't address any of them or even acknowledge their existence.

[Darth Marley]

There is no changing ideas about a show. you either like it, or not. It either "grows on you" or it doesn't.

There is nothing to say in terms of exchange of ideas regarding the fear that when BSG is mentioned, the RDM product is what will spring to mind in the public conscience.

It is clear that many people have "issues" with the new show. What is there to say that EJO has not said already? Don't put yourself through the pain.

But, the public perception of what Galactica is, that is a different matter. It is something beyond control. And complaining about what you cannot control will likely lead to frustration.

[Titon]

To me personally, in the times I did talk to him, he came across as egotistical.

How right you are.

Do you honestly think that Richard Hatch, Ron Moore and the cast of Galactica are not egotistical? You have to be in order to work in Hollywood. It's a prerequisit. I dealt with it for 6 months and you couldn't give me this industry as a full time job. You become an asshole right before your very own eyes. No one folks in hollywood is out to be your friend. They give you what you want to hear, not what you want to see. When it's all said in done it's based on how much i can either advance my career or how much i can put in my pocket.

Don't kid yourselves at all. There is no such thing as a non egotistical actor or producer, they don't exist.

Remember that before defending anyone. Especially an actor.

[jewels]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

THe analogy has to do with the fact that in 1995, the Cleveland Browns football team, one of the most popular in the NFL, and which drew attendance of 80,000 a week through many years of frustration were one day betrayed by their owner, Art Modell, who in the dead of night moved the team to Baltimore claiming financial hardship, when what really happened was a case of greed where he wanted a sweetheart deal on a new stadium and he was able to get one quick from Baltimore. From a legal standpoint, the team was his property and he could do what he wanted to do with it with an eye toward maximizing his profit potential. From an ethical standpoint, he was wrong to not consider the interests of the loyal fans who'd supported the team for decades and saw it as something that belonged to them. Modell received death threats and can never set foot in Cleveland again, but he is still a man not many people think highly of even though the team he moved to Baltimore won a Super Bowl a few years later.

To me, this scenario has very eerie parallels with what we've seen happen with Galactica. We, the TOS fans who are still upset are the Browns fans who are upset with the man who did not consider the feelings of the fanbase that loyally supported the property through many years of tough times. The TNS fans are like the Baltimore Ravens fans who got something new to enjoy for themselves and who were rewarded in short order with a Super Bowl triumph. The difficulty we face today in terms of bridging TOS and TNS fanbases is the same that would exist for a forum comprised of Cleveland and Baltimore football fans.

Hope that explains that.

Eric, I live (moved here recently) in the city that "stole" the Colts from Baltimore. My entire STATE is currently sweating a stadium deal to keep them, what more than a decade?? past their move here. I think you have a very good analogy in that comparison.

[jewels]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

First off, you didn't address yourself to me directly which surprised me, because I was making an effort to do so with your post in what I thought was supposed to be an ongoing dialogue. You then addressed my post's points in an offhand manner that I found to be dismissive because it seemed to me that you were more concerned with making a bigger point about how pointless the discussion was becoming and that nothing further could be added to it. And finally, I asked you some questions at the end of the post because I was genuinely interested in your answer to them, and you didn't address any of them or even acknowledge their existence.

Eric, sometimes it is as simple as folks get tuckered out. It's frustrating when it happens and we were having fun chatting. But it's OK when folks are at the end of their words on a topic.

Neither of you were going to agree, and it can feel like you are trapped in a circle without an exit if you keep at that kind of conversation.

I appreciate that you posted this thread at all. I think it does give people more insight.



Jewels

Wow, gentlemen, this is quite the contest of wills (or it's medieval equivalent-wink, wink). I leave for a few hours and things are totally out of control but there's been some good posts, too.

I did want to say that like NextCeo and Frag, I'm a fan of both TOS and TNS, and almost any other form of Science Fiction/Fantasy (I draw the line at Day of the Dead stuff though, there was another thread on that a while back). And I'm very like minded of the postings that they both have been sharing on this thread - nice job guys.

One post of Eric's in particular was great, too, where he really explained the philosophy behind a number of the issues, and I wanted fulfill his curiousity on my thoughts about the three items you indicated would have avoided most of the issues that started the firestorms over TNS. Just a warning, I'm afraid I'm probably going to disappoint you, and sorry this is sooo long. I've relisted your list here for ease of reading in a different color:

1-Keep the conflict between Human and Cylon the way it was in TOS and do not fall back on an old cliche of "man's creation turning on him." All that does is bring in the "we brought this on ourselves" kind of thinking that is simply not true to TOS, because TOS offered instead a struggle of moral clarity where the enemy was ultimately revealed to be the Devil's own creation (in WOTG).

It's interesting that you mention "man's creation turning on himself", even though it is a cliche literary theme, when that's essentially what happened with God's creations, both Satan (before he fell) and Man (yup, we fell, too). God created Satan (or Lucifer before he disobeyed) and Man for different reasons but both have free will to choose to obey or disobey God. It's also interesting that our natures both made the same choice, if for different reasons. So, in my mind, these themes are not so far apart so the change from one to the other doesn't bother me much. There must be some source of conflict, or we're in Heaven (or Purgatory, Nirvana, etc. as the case may be) and at least it's an enduring sci-fi one at that, even if not part of the TOS.

Also, the bit about the Cylons being the Devil's creation wasn't in the televised version of the series so I wasn't aware of it until you mentioned it. Evidently, that's only on the DVD version, which gives me incentive to buy it when the opportunity and cash present themselves at just the right time. I thought I saw that episode a couple months back on sci-fi but don't remember it having anything different from when I saw it on TV many years ago. Very interesting and certainly explains a lot about the names the head cylons had

2-Keep Adama a man of faith, and just have him say truthfully "I don't know where Earth is, but I have faith we will find it." Olmos stated that the lying to give hope carries with it the very ugly subtext that the things we look to to have faith in, such as religion, are ultimately the false creations of devious men to fool the gullible. That too is not true to the spirit of TOS.

Just to clarify, was the second sentence a verbatim quote from EJO or was that what his character says after he delivers the false speech (sounds like I need to watch 33 again)? This is a view held by many folks today (inlcuding my brother), and often the church or christian individuals do little to help prove otherwise in this arena. Religion, of any kind, always runs into problems simply because people are involved and they always tend to change from their original purposes into something that's less than those lofty goals, for example, existing to maintain a building instead of caring for the local community.

I think it's okay to change this piece, too, because I feel that better reflects the reality we've always lived with but were unwilling to deal with, instead using a black and white version of it for easy reference. We can barely comprehend the world that our parents grew up in as our world has been so vastly changed in that 40-60 years. And even though I enjoy watching programming from older eras, I greatly appreciate the fact that we live in a more enlightened world that better reflects our reality, even if it often reflects how stupid humanity can be. Life is complicated shades of gray, evil is hard to recognize for what it is, and good hides in the places we least expect it to be.

3-Keep Colonial religion monotheistic.

You know this always confused me about TOS: they were monotheistic but had trappings from the Egyptian, Greek, and Roman cultures, which were all polythiestic. I could never reconcile those things together. Monothiesm is typically the exception and not the rule when it comes to religion so the change to being polythiestic isn't a problem for me either. Of all the world's religions, only Judaism, Islam, and Christianity believe in this concept, and actually all three worship the same God. Also, I read today that TOS is heavily based on the Latter Day Saints (Mormon) religion, and used a number of terms and references to it. I'd never heard this before, is this the case? (No need to answer here unless you like to, I really should start a different thread on that as that's really a separate topic.)

Do you think that if we had these three things and no other changes to what presently exists, would the alterations from what presently exists be so great?

To me, it just wouldn't be as good a new series if we reset these things to what they were in TOS. It wouldn't have the edginess, hard planes and angles, and dark spots that make it so interesting to me. The only issue I may flip on would be the religion aspect but I'll have to see where they take it. Zealots exist in every religion, even Buddhism (monks setting themselves on fire), so although that theme makes me uncomfortable at times, it's a truism that I accept and try not to ignore as it can have consequences.

It's possible that some of these things you mention may come full circle in the series and I'm hopeful they become better reconciled (like Frag mentioned about the fans) but I certainly understand and respect your views on these issues, Eric, and look forward to other posts on this discussion.

Whew,
Rigel

[Eric Paddon]

Rigel, I'll get back to the rest of your post tomorrow but let me just give you a quick clarification on one point, that of the Cylons as the Devil's creation in TOS. This point is brought out very ingeniously in "War Of The Gods" when Baltar and Count Iblis have their conversation in the prison cell and Baltar says he recognizes that Iblis's voice is the same as that of the Cylon Imperious Leader.

IBLIS: Cylon's a machine.
BALTAR: Yes, now they are. But once they were a race of beings destroyed by their own technology.
IBLIS: And when did all this happen?
BALTAR: A thousand yahrens ago, before the onset of the war with the humans.
IBLIS: Do you realize what you say, Baltar? In order for my voice to be that of the Imperious Leader, it would have to have been transcribed and placed into the essence of the machine leader, a thousand yahrens ago. I would have to be a thousand yahrens old!

Baltar is then caught off guard a bit by this, but the implication is that Iblis has just spoken the truth. He was the one responsible for the creation of the robot Cylons that destroyed the original reptilian Cylons, and this accounts for why his voice is that used for the Cylon Imperious Leaders. An ingenious case of using Patrick MacNee who had already been providing the voice of the Leader in this part led to the most important subtext of the entire series.

Thanks, Eric. I recalled this scene in WOTG but I was never sure if that really meant he was the Devil himself and, indeed, literally engineered the Cylons. When I was researching that episode, the forums (here and elsewhere) made mention that int he DVD versions, they show the cloven feet Apollo and Stabuck find at the crash site where Iblis was rescued from. That tidbit would have sealed the deal for me making this connection. Without it, I just wasn't really sure what the end implication was.

Thanks for the info and clarifying that for me,
Rigel

[jewels]

Rigel,
quick answer on LDS and TOS:
Glen Larson was raised Mormon and adapted some Mormon beliefs into Colonial theology (marriage ceremony being called "sealing" and being an eternal relationship commitment are the most obvious). Mormonism was rather clever as it has lots of standard "familiar" Christianity with some "other worldly" sort of twists--i.e. it's familar, but it's different. Which suited the purpose perfectly for "those who believe" back in 1978. Some have said (not Larson, commentators) that they saw not only Moses Exodus and Noah's Ark in BG, but the parallel also to the exodus of sorts the Mormons made in their historical journey/migration to Utah.


Others around are better suited to spell out the specifics. If you post a thread, try asking in the TOS BG forum.

Jewels

[kingfish]

Originally Posted by jewels

Fox: Simpsons, Family Man, South Park (?)

Cartoon network. Actually soon to be calling themselves "Adult Swim" in the evening. (sorry if someone else answered already. Been busy.

Disney channel occaisionally runs it's animated features at night.

We had live actors in the palm of our hand, Dirk and Herb as the original characters in the DeSanto production. This showed that there were possibilities for BG coming back as a continuation. I guess we are to the point that we will take anything thrown our way.



PS: I DON'T want an anime/cartoon continuation.

[kingfish]

Originally Posted by jewels

Rigel,
quick answer on LDS and TOS:
Glen Larson was raised Mormon and adapted some Mormon beliefs into Colonial theology (marriage ceremony being called "sealing" and being an eternal relationship commitment are the most obvious). Mormonism was rather clever as it has lots of standard "familiar" Christianity with some "other worldly" sort of twists--i.e. it's familar, but it's different. Which suited the purpose perfectly for "those who believe" back in 1978. Some have said (not Larson, commentators) that they saw not only Moses Exodus and Noah's Ark in BG, but the parallel also to the exodus of sorts the Mormons made in their historical journey/migration to Utah.


Others around are better suited to spell out the specifics. If you post a thread, try asking in the TOS BG forum.

Jewels

If Glen Larson cared about his creation we wouldn't be in this mess. For all we know he might be making big dollars off of Nu Galactica. he is listed as consulting producer after all.

Originally Posted by Warrior

Re-read my post. Did I say Richard, or did I say me?



...ummm Yes, he plays it both ways. He is egotistical and is a man earning a living in Hollywood.

Mind you, when you want to hear what you want to hear, the go thing can go either way.

I am sure there are nuBG fans that have talked to him and will say he's not egotistical or arrogant, while there are other people that have talked to him that come away with an entirely different view.

To me personally, in the times I did talk to him, he came across as egotistical.

Not all my questions were directly related to your previous post. I was looking for incite especially since prior to your reply I have never read anywhere that anyone received death threats from mini or TNS fans, although I am well aware of the animosity generated by individuals during the clone war to include law suit threats.

I apologize if my questions were vague and will try to be clearer. Please answer if you feel inclined.

1. Were the death threats you received from TOS, TNS or both types of fans?

2. Did Richard Hatch receive death threats? If so were they from TOS, TNS, or both types of fans?

3. Were you still working on that web site after Richard Hatch made his positive comments about Ron Moore and TNS?

4. I assume Ron Moore is an egotist. My main question may be obscurred by that word. Do you believe Ron Moore's goal was to destroy hope for a TOS Continuation or to make a financially successful science fiction television program?

5. Do you believe Ron Moore wants to intentionally inflict pain on other human beings, in particular fans of TOS (based on Eric's dancing on grave comment earlier in thread)?


After all this time in the BSG web world this thread has been enlightening, however the enlightenment was unexpected. I understand the pain many people feel about the perceived loss of hope in regards to a TOS Continuation. I also understand the hatred some carry to TNS as a travesty compared to TOS. I also know there are elements that have personified this feeling onto Ron Moore and Bonnie Hammer. I have been surprised however by the depth of this personification and the willingness to believe in evil intent as opposed to money motivation behind them at this point by people I did not expect to see such comments from.

I guess I think Ron Moore, Bonnie Hammer, or any of the other maligned figures of TNS could be greedy, uncaring, egotistic, and foolish. I don't see how people take the leap from that to making them into evil individuals whose goal is to inflict pain. Moore and Hammer had a goal of making a television show that gathered high ratings and was a financial success. I'm sure they knew some people would not like what they did. Some people having hurt feelings was an ancillary to what they did however, not the purpose or intent.

I Ask this simple question:

If Ron Moore tomorrow could push a green button and the results would be that TNS would fail and TOS in any form would never be seen on television again or he could press a red button and TNS would be a great success but it would also result in a successful TOS based series which button would Moore press?

[Gemini1999]

Originally Posted by Antelope

The answer is obvious except to the deluded.

Antelope -

Comments such as the one above are gonna get this thread shut down. This is not a personal thing and such comments directed at another poster, or any portion of the fanbase are not permitted, nor tolerated.

As for another poster "dodging" your questions....this isn't the McCarthy hearings or the Spanish Inquisition. If someone doesn't want to bother, that's their choice. In my book, harrassing them to get your answers isn't the best way to do it.

For everyone here participating in this discussion, please keep your comments to those about the show, not the individuals participating in the discussion. If you don't agree with someone's point of view, that's fine, if you have a problem with the individual, take it off the forum or drop it entirely.

Sincerely,
Gemini1999
Colonial Fleets Moderator

Originally Posted by Gemini1999

Antelope -
Comments such as the one above are gonna get this thread shut down. This is not a personal thing and such comments directed at another poster, or any portion of the fanbase are not permitted, nor tolerated.

I apologize if any of my comments are misconstrued as being personal in nature.

I edited my reply to try to make it more in the spirit I intended.

Note: This is the Battlestar Beef section. I expect this section to be hard. People don't come here to say good things. I guess my beef is that people scapegoat other individuals for their own sense of hurt. Ron Moore is a scapegoat. Much of what is being said here about Ron Moore is personal in nature and judges him as a man not by his work. If Ron Moore was a member here much of what is said by members about him would be a bannable offense.

If it turned out that Ron Moore used a handle on this site and was a regular poster would it be OK for people to personally attack him and disparage his reputation simply because they used his real name and not his handle?

We still have a double standard on this subject.

[Eric Paddon]

"I guess I think Ron Moore, Bonnie Hammer, or any of the other maligned figures of TNS could be greedy, uncaring, egotistic, and foolish. I don't see how people take the leap from that to making them into evil individuals whose goal is to inflict pain."

Antelope, the problem is that the epithets that you indicate are perfectly legit when characterizing those people is exactly the kind of language I and others have used to characterize them, and you are taking it to another level by mischaracterizing those remarks as being indicative of the latter type of epithets. When I describe Moore as dancing on the grave of TOS fandom in his DVD commentary that to me is describing the behavior of someone I regard as "uncaring and foolish" and nowhere is there any description on my part of calling for his death or that he is as evil a person as Bin Laden, for instance.

This gets back again to my point in the initial post, which I feel you have tried to diminish for the sake of inflating what you see as attacks on Moore in it, that TOS fans who do express such feelings about the current state of events are being unjustly stigmitized for spreading "hate".

[luicfer7thfleet]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

Rigel, I'll get back to the rest of your post tomorrow but let me just give you a quick clarification on one point, that of the Cylons as the Devil's creation in TOS. This point is brought out very ingeniously in "War Of The Gods" when Baltar and Count Iblis have their conversation in the prison cell and Baltar says he recognizes that Iblis's voice is the same as that of the Cylon Imperious Leader.

IBLIS: Cylon's a machine.
BALTAR: Yes, now they are. But once they were a race of beings destroyed by their own technology.
IBLIS: And when did all this happen?
BALTAR: A thousand yahrens ago, before the onset of the war with the humans.
IBLIS: Do you realize what you say, Baltar? In order for my voice to be that of the Imperious Leader, it would have to have been transcribed and placed into the essence of the machine leader, a thousand yahrens ago. I would have to be a thousand yahrens old!

Baltar is then caught off guard a bit by this, but the implication is that Iblis has just spoken the truth. He was the one responsible for the creation of the robot Cylons that destroyed the original reptilian Cylons, and this accounts for why his voice is that used for the Cylon Imperious Leaders. An ingenious case of using Patrick MacNee who had already been providing the voice of the Leader in this part led to the most important subtext of the entire series.

he than said that all was not lost and too stand tall i think this means he was evil and would have givin the fleet to the cylons if adamma had gone along. remember nothing can hurt you sheba as long as i;m in side you!. [haha]

[Darrell Lawrence]

Antelope, this is the Beefs forum, *but* personal attacks are still a no-no. That is about it as far as moderation in this particular forum.

I'll get back to reply to your questions in a bit.

Thanks for the post and insight from everyone on this thread. Even when I disagree I value the time everyone takes to put down their thoughts. I think this subject is far more raw than I thought it would be at this point in time. In the future I think I will avoid posting in this forum and stick to being a happy fan on either of the two forums for the series I enjoy so much, both TOS and TNS.

Warrior, if you do get a chance I will read your reply.

Thankyou.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Antelope

Not all my questions were directly related to your previous post. I was looking for incite especially since prior to your reply I have never read anywhere that anyone received death threats from mini or TNS fans, although I am well aware of the animosity generated by individuals during the clone war to include law suit threats.

I apologize if my questions were vague and will try to be clearer. Please answer if you feel inclined.

Well... it's RARE that anyone would bring attention to themselves in saying they received death threats.

I've never mentioned it before because I laughed it off.

Originally Posted by Antelope

1. Were the death threats you received from TOS, TNS or both types of fans?

Both. Like I said though, I laughed them off. Pretty hilarious stuff actually. I recognized the e-mail addies as well. They were told where they could stick their heads

Originally Posted by Antelope

2. Did Richard Hatch receive death threats? If so were they from TOS, TNS, or both types of fans?

He didn't receive them while I was webmaster through the website. As for him getting them by other means, no idea.

Originally Posted by Antelope

3. Were you still working on that web site after Richard Hatch made his positive comments about Ron Moore and TNS?

Yes, I was.

Originally Posted by Antelope

4. I assume Ron Moore is an egotist. My main question may be obscurred by that word. Do you believe Ron Moore's goal was to destroy hope for a TOS Continuation or to make a financially successful science fiction television program?

Both. In his very early comments, he made it no secret that he'd neverwatched the series, and only after talks of getting the gig did he watch the pilot premier. He said then he liked the armehgheddon aspects, but didn't care for the mythologies, etc. He stated he was going to do away with that, etc etc and anyone that disagreed with him, then the "popcorn" was in another isle, etc. Many of his disparging comments towards both the series *and* the fans came back then.

THis was BEFORE Galacticon, and BEFORE he approached Richard to be in the new series.

Originally Posted by Antelope

5. Do you believe Ron Moore wants to intentionally inflict pain on other human beings, in particular fans of TOS (based on Eric's dancing on grave comment earlier in thread)?

Ron says things in a very "snide comment", sarcastic sort of way. Some can take it as him trying to be funny, others don't.

It's through that type of "humor" that a persons real take on something generally comes through.

So to answer that question, in all honesty, I do believe Moore wants osBG to just go away, and he doesn't care what the osBG fans think. Within that not caring what certain fans think, that means he could care less about them and doesn't care what toes he steps on. And by not caring who's toes get stepped on, then yes, he intentionally inflicts emotional pain on those people.

Originally Posted by Antelope

After all this time in the BSG web world this thread has been enlightening, however the enlightenment was unexpected. I understand the pain many people feel about the perceived loss of hope in regards to a TOS Continuation. I also understand the hatred some carry to TNS as a travesty compared to TOS. I also know there are elements that have personified this feeling onto Ron Moore and Bonnie Hammer. I have been surprised however by the depth of this personification and the willingness to believe in evil intent as opposed to money motivation behind them at this point by people I did not expect to see such comments from.

Oh ho... Regarding Bonnie, that story goes WAY back to the time of Richard first proposing BG come back as a continuation. Back then, she flat out said she didn't care what fans thought. She was going to do things her way. Luckily, someone at top told herto cool her jets at the time.

Originally Posted by Antelope

I guess I think Ron Moore, Bonnie Hammer, or any of the other maligned figures of TNS could be greedy, uncaring, egotistic, and foolish. I don't see how people take the leap from that to making them into evil individuals whose goal is to inflict pain. Moore and Hammer had a goal of making a television show that gathered high ratings and was a financial success. I'm sure they knew some people would not like what they did. Some people having hurt feelings was an ancillary to what they did however, not the purpose or intent.

I think I answered that above regarding their "inflicting" pain. To make it clear, it's emotional pain, not physical

Originally Posted by Antelope

I Ask this simple question:

If Ron Moore tomorrow could push a green button and the results would be that TNS would fail and TOS in any form would never be seen on television again or he could press a red button and TNS would be a great success but it would also result in a successful TOS based series which button would Moore press?

Neither. He doesn't have that power, even though he likes to think he does

[Eric Paddon]

First Rigel, thanks for answering the three questions I posed.

I think where I disagree with you is that I don't see the "man's creation turning on himself" tying in to the idea of the whole original sin concept as you see it. To me, TOS premise of mankind being forced to fight a war that can only be defined in terms of an absolute Good-Evil struggle, and failing in that conflict because of his flawed nature better addresses that issue. TOS does not present mankind as perfect. Adama's sad aside, "No wonder our world fell apart" when he thinks of Sire Uri and his self-indulgence hits that point rather effectively, while not detracting from the unique idea that this is a war that can not be defined in the conventional "shades of gray" approach that typifies all other sci-fi. The real danger of a "shades of gray" thinking to me is that it too often puts one on the slippery slope toward moral equivalence or moral relativism.

My comment on what Olmos said is what he said in an interview, not in the episode. It represents a way of thinking that religion and ideals to believe in are things concocted by cynical men and not the product of what one regards as genuine faith in what happens to be something seen as real. And that to me, is a philosophy that has no place in an end product called "Battlestar Galactica" anymore than overt Christian preaching belongs in a reinvention of the novels of H.G. Wells or even in Star Trek for that matter. This is one of those issues where I feel there has to be some deference shown to what the original stood for on this point.

"I think it's okay to change this piece, too, because I feel that better reflects the reality we've always lived with but were unwilling to deal with, instead using a black and white version of it for easy reference."

I come back to the fact that I represent that part of the audience who believes there is in fact a black and white dimension to the universe around us with absolute good and absolute evil, and that mankind has not, contrary to the philosophy of Star Trek, outgrown his need for God or Divine assistance. Galactica was a show that in effect stood up to the conventional wisdom, whereas TNS goes back to the conventional wisdom on this point.

"You know this always confused me about TOS: they were monotheistic but had trappings from the Egyptian, Greek, and Roman cultures, which were all polythiestic. I could never reconcile those things together."

It isn't too difficult actually. Egypt gave us a monotheistic king in Ahneaton, and Greek and Roman philosophy in fact was skeptical of the whole polytheistic notion and tended to reason that if there was a God, the monotheistic structure better explained the universe, which is why Chrisitanity was able to find a good deal of appeal amongst those of Greek and Roman education even before the Roman Empire became Christian. I would also disagree with the idea that monotheism is the exception when it comes to religion because all of the world's major religions are in fact monotheistic. Besides, if you suggest that TOS shouldn't have been monotheistic because of the presence of ancient culture trappings, then it seems to me by default then that because the universe of TNS so consciously attempts to mimic present-day America, that should automatically be monotheistic. At any rate, when there is a change from something that the Judeo-Christian audience of 1978 could more readily recognize and reconcile in basic principle to his or her own beliefs, into something that is not reconciliable to his or her own beliefs today, that inevitably comes off to a person like myself as a slam against having a sci-fi universe that the Judeo-Christian audience can easily embrace.

Anyway, I appreciate what you say on this, and I hope I've done your views justice in my response and not misconstrued anything. Thanks for continuing the dialogue.

Warrior:

Thanks for the reply. That was very insightful. As for the idiot death threat people, I think both sides have their jackasses. Sorry if I came off abrasive these past days.

Antelope

[BST]

Folks,

I want to take this moment to acknowledge a few things:

1- Thank you to Eric for initiating this conversation, continuing the dialogue, and making the effort to understand the opposing points of view;

2- Thank you to everyone else for respecting Eric's original point of view and engaging in conversation which ultimately, it is hoped, will lead to better and broader areas of understanding.


This type of exchange is "what the forums are all about". While we cannot be expected to agree on all points about everything, it is important to keep in mind the respect for another individual is transcendental of anything that we may place into print.


I'm proud of ya! Good job, folks!

BST

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by BST

It does appear that you want an answer so, here it is.

The comment portrays to me the height of arrogance - there have been some very good science fiction shows produced since Twilight Zone. This new show may appeal to you but, to me it's just not that good and most assuredly does not deserve such a lofty status assigned to it.

That is what the comment says to me.

Ah-ha, sounds like you have pretty much the same interpretation as me of "TNS is more ambitious than all these other shows." I'll continue to take it in that manner until I hear another way of looking at it.

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by nextceo

I'm a Christian (and conservative republican) myself and enjoy the show.

I'm a Christian too. However, I feel the Republicans are merely the lesser of two evils. It's not that they mean harm, simply that so many Republican leaders (Bush especially) are too dumb to know what their doing. Now the Democrats want to rip the brains out of unborn childre, that's just. Both parties must be re-educated after Ross Perot's glorious return, and conquest of our government. HAIL PEROT!

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by kingfish

PS: I DON'T want an anime/cartoon continuation.

Sorry, but soon live-action will die forever, and all will be as it should be.

Live-action sucks, live-action has always sucked, live-action will always suck.

TOS' biggest weakness was that it was live action.

TNS' biggest weakness is that it is live action.

STs' biggest weakness was that it was live action.

SWs' biggest weakness was that it was live action.

ect.

Edit: I know this goes against my usual philosophy of not stating your opinion as fact, but the pervading view among the TOS fanbase seems to be that anime is inferior to live-action, and unworthy to touch their precious show, and I can only take that as a slap in the face.

[Eric Paddon]

Mustex, kindly stick to the topic this thread is supposed to be about, because believe me the virtues (or lack thereof as I see it with regard to TOS) of anime is not why I started this thread.