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Old February 7th, 2005, 09:09 PM   #151
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A professor friend of mine told me they should never have gotten to earth. Tis not the place you end up thats important, its how you get there that is.
So true Bojay.......sounds like that professor of yours knew what he was talking about
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Old February 8th, 2005, 06:29 AM   #152
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A professor friend of mine told me they should never have gotten to earth. Tis not the place you end up thats important, its how you get there that is.

True, but even so. By the time the Colonials get there they would have found Earth. plenty of stories could evolve around how do they contact their 13th tribe brothers and sisters? What shape are they in? Even when the reach Earth will the Cylons get there and destroy them all.

The journey definately counts and after many seasons i feel the stories still could have continued. Remember the 'battle' is never ending. Seeing the 13th Tribe (Earthlings) fight along side the Colonials to take on the Cylon Empire is another possibility when the Galactica reaches Earth is it not?

Galactica was bigger in scope than Larson could have ever dreamed of. It's not that people misunderstood his vision, it's that everybody else watched it and took it to the next level and saw the possibilties of the characters and storyline for themselves.

Blaming the masses is a no no. When will somebody in old hollywood actually stop passing the buck and take responsibility and fest up, either blame yourself or the networks that messed around with your vision. Blaming the masses? Yeah everybody but you eh Larson? guess larson wil blame the masses for more or less, half his TV shows for failing in their first seasons.



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Old February 9th, 2005, 08:36 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Bojay
If you read the interview with Glen Larson in early 1980 form Starlog magazine I believe. You will find out the Larsen put an end to BSG, not the network.


That's a new one on me. I would buy him ending G80, but not BSG.

I'll dig through a friend's old BSG info (including what I believe to be every Starlog article ever on Galactica) and see if I can find what you reference, but any more detail would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

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Old January 26th, 2006, 04:41 PM   #154
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Because of matters surrounding a certain other series, I've been revisting more the nature of the conflict this episode gives us between Adama and Cain, and it amazes me how on a fundamental level this story holds up so well all these years later.

A lot has been made of Cain as a MacArthur or Patton in space, but it occurs to me more and more that Adama in this episode is reminiscent of another WWII general, in this case Eisenhower. Eisenhower was always the commander who had to be concerned with political niceties and the bigger picture of things that an impulsive commander like Patton could often lose sight of. And Eisenhower had to relieve Patton once as well, despite the latter's brilliant successes because Eisenhower had to play politician as much as he had to play general.

Yet even amidst that, the respect and belief in the common good both generals represented, overruled everything else in their conflicts over approaching matters. And that ultimately is why LL works in terms of seeing this character conflict even as both men at heart still manage to think quite highly of each other.
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Old July 22nd, 2006, 11:52 AM   #155
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Its my favorite episod of Battletar Galactica.
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Old September 30th, 2006, 08:43 PM   #156
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Adama also reminds one of General Omar Bradley. "The Soldier's General", deeply concerned with the lives of his men, not spending them needlessly, and less with military glory.
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Old October 2nd, 2006, 06:25 PM   #157
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True, but Bradley was not a man with a gift for politics in the same way that Eisenhower was and later proved to be as a civilian leader, which I think makes Ike the more appropriate counterpart for Adama.
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Old October 25th, 2006, 11:01 AM   #158
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this ep should be not only considered a BsG classic but a TV classic, and the novelization is even better! this is the franchises peak for all intents and purposes.

the battle itself has been debated many times at SD.net and SB.com and I have gamed it out with friends many times. But it is the breaking of old relationships(Adama/Cain)as contrasted with the creation of new ones(Apollo/Sheba)that make the ep work so well.

and a huge thank you to Lloyd Bridges for breathing life into what could have been a one dimensional martinet of a characther. You made Commander Cain truly unforgettable
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Old November 11th, 2008, 07:33 AM   #159
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Default Re: BG-08: The Living Legend

I'm watcing this episode today. It's one of my absolute favourites. I agree about the missile launches. Very impressive.
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Old February 20th, 2015, 01:39 PM   #160
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Default Re: BG-08: The Living Legend

So I'm rewatching the series. I am watching the David Kerin edits of BG and the Redux edits of G80.

As I watch the episodes, I go back and read the battlestarwiki.org notes and analysis. Thought I'd comment on them and add a few of my own. For this, I am only including the programme itself and not canonizing the books.

Battlestar Wiki Analysis:

Quote:
This is the first mention of more then just one fleet in the Colonial Military. In the pilot there appeared to be only one main fleet. Pegasus was part of the Fifth Fleet.
Just because other fleets weren't mentioned doesn't mean that they didn't exist. It's hard to fathom that they would have left the colonies completely undefended by sending every single battlestar to the peace conference. But then, these are the same people who were considering destroying all their weapons at Carollon right after they got their tails kicked by the Cylons.

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Some of the scenes on the ground at the Gamoray base were filmed at night on the campus of the University of California at Northridge
Well, everyone knows that UC Nothridge is full of Cylons anyway.

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Cain's comments suggest the Cylon empire is not that vast or powerful as he estimates the two battlestars might be able to defeat the empire.
Hardly, as Adama quickly counters that by stating that the basestars that were avoiding the Pegasus were happily chasing the Galactica.

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Gamoray (50 million inhabitants) means the Cylons now control over half the (inhabited-?) "universe" and the conquest is deemed sufficiently important for the Cylon imperious leader to visit Gamoray in person.
Strange that the Imperious Leader would visit a colony that Lucifer refers to as small, unimportant, and out of the way. (Not exact quotes)

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The Cain/Sheba relationship is very much unique in the series, and may hint at what writers may have hoped to do with Athena.
Ah, now that would have been interesting to watch. And we may have actually seen a seed of it in Saga of a Star World when Athena and Adama were talking about his resigning command.

Battlestar Wiki questions:

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Why does Adama order the Fleet to come to a "dead stop"? Why not simply shut off the engines and continue drifting forward through space?
Better yet, why do we keep hearing the rumble of the engines?

Truthfully, though, if they hadn't come to a dead stop, they would have foudn themselves in the middle of the Cylon system, according to Cain.

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Again, when Baltar orders Lucifer to give him two of their best pilots, shouldn't all Centurions be equal in ability?
You'd think. But then, that would beg the question as to why the Imperious Leader was chosen for that position over Lucifer. ("Why he was chosen over me, I'll never know.")

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The electronic defense shields on Pegasus seem to be a new technology that was not introduced in prior episodes of the series. Is this an experimental technology integrated into Pegasus prior to the Battle of Molecay
Doesn't seem to be as the Galactica has the ability to extend these screens to protect an entire planet in Experiment in Terra. (In the David Kerin version, this screen is replaced by Galactica's laser turrets shooting the incoming missiles out of the sky.) If battlestars do have this electronic "screen," it would make more sense of the oft-use command "Positive shield now," which would otherwise seem hyperbole if it really only closed off the main viewport.

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Do Pegasus and Commander Cain survive the explosion of the two basestars?
Depends on if you want to give any canon to the proposed second season.

Additional questions:

Given that Sheba is the strike commander, why is she only a lieutenant?

Is the position of Strike Commander only given to the offspring of the battlestar commanders? (Apollo->Adama, Sheba->Cain)

How many vipers do Sheba and Bojay come across that they don't scan for human life before firing on them?

Why didn't Cain rejoin the fleet after Molecay? Couldn't he have made his way back eventually? What good was he doing attacking Cylons so far away from the main battleground?

What exactly did Cain think he could do against the Cylon empire with two battlestars?

Would it really have been wise to mix squadrons on such a vital mission such as capturing the tankers?

How is it that Adama outranks Cain?

Exactly how far was the Pegasus from the fleet that the Pegasus was able to reach light speed?

Most glaring of all, how is it possible that Baltar and his Cylons don't know about the Pegasus?

How is it that Gamoray doesn't see the shuttle in their airspace?

What is it about Cylons (a machine "race") that has them have civilians, pomp & circumstance, and other seemingly human qualities?

Does Gamoray not have any anti-air batteries? Even after all that harassment from the Pegasus? (As opposed to the main anti-assault which could take out battlestars.)

Why does Baltar order the raiders to break off from Pegasus even if it was a diversion when the Pegasus was on the virge of being destroyed anyway?

Baltar unnecessaily recalls the raiders to defend the basestars. Even without raiders, three basestars can easily dispatch a single battlestar without vipers.

Even if the flank missile launchers are disabled, what prevented the basestars from just turning around and using the other missile launchers? Those ships are round, after all. What prevented the basestars from launching missiles before the Pegasus got between them and blowing it out of the sky in the first place?
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Old February 20th, 2015, 07:35 PM   #161
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Default Re: BG-08: The Living Legend

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Originally Posted by Lighthope View Post
Baltar unnecessaily recalls the raiders to defend the basestars. Even without raiders, three basestars can easily dispatch a single battlestar without vipers.
Baltar is a coward. When it gets really tight, he does not think well. He reacts in fear.



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Even if the flank missile launchers are disabled, what prevented the basestars from just turning around and using the other missile launchers? Those ships are round, after all. What prevented the basestars from launching missiles before the Pegasus got between them and blowing it out of the sky in the first place?
They turn slowly. Perhaps sufficient missile tubes could not be brought to bear before Peggy is within range.
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Old February 20th, 2015, 10:43 PM   #162
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Baltar is a coward. When it gets really tight, he does not think well. He reacts in fear.
I had consdiered that. It certainly seems to be the direction they were taking the character.

However, we have to couch Baltar's cowardice with other factors we can deduce about him.

1) It must take a great deal of courage to betray your race to the Cylons.

2) Baltar had to be able to recruit people. Adama did say it was "Baltar's people" who gave the report about Carallon.

3) If we are to accept what is widely presumed to be true, Baltar was also a battlestar commander, certainly not something that can be attained by a coward. (There is actually nothing in the show which states Baltar had his own command. All we know was that he was a member of the Council of Twelve.)

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They turn slowly. Perhaps sufficient missile tubes could not be brought to bear before Peggy is within range.
Can't be that slow otherwise it would defeat the purpose of such an ability. Any ship which has their guns knocked out on one side will always turn, otherwise your weapons are useless.
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Old February 21st, 2015, 06:07 PM   #163
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Default Re: BG-08: The Living Legend

BaseShips turning...I thought about that, but BaseShips are designed to operate with fighter cover, and in battle groups. Each ship covering the other's tush. These two are without any fighter cover, and have taken considerable damage. What that may have done to their internal targeting systems, we do not know. They have also been abandoned by Baltar, who could have stood back, and covered them with pulsar fire. Again, he shows his inate cowardice.
As to Baltar as a Commander...he mentions in TLPOTG that he was "caught between the President's battlestar and my own", at least hinting that he was a ship's Commander. Charybdis calls him "Commander Baltar", not Count or whatever. Colonial society seems at some level to be like that of the Romans. Entire clans, or gens, in the Early Republic, would go out and fight as a group, sometimes disasterously. We see Adama and his family aboard the same ship. Ditto Cain and Sheba. Among the Romans, one might also obtain a military commission by being born to the right family, or by buying it/having it bought for you, as the family of Caesar did, making him an instant military Tribune. Baltar is a businessman, and wheeler-dealer. That he could have bought himself a command, or his family buying it, is not out of keeping with what little we were shown of Colonial society. I just wish we still had Larson, to answer these points for us.
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Old February 21st, 2015, 08:58 PM   #164
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BaseShips turning...I thought about that, but BaseShips are designed to operate with fighter cover, and in battle groups. Each ship covering the other's tush. These two are without any fighter cover, and have taken considerable damage. What that may have done to their internal targeting systems, we do not know. They have also been abandoned by Baltar, who could have stood back, and covered them with pulsar fire. Again, he shows his inate cowardice.
Although I don't think that the basestars had taken "considerable damage" considering that all Apollo and Starbuck did was hit a small spot, it is true we have never seen a basestar whip around like I would suggest, so I won't be dogmatic about it.

Quote:
As to Baltar as a Commander...he mentions in TLPOTG that he was "caught between the President's battlestar and my own", at least hinting that he was a ship's Commander. Charybdis calls him "Commander Baltar"
I actually don't recall that line about "commander Baltar". Someone else does mention that he is called "commander" in that episode, so that does seem to confirm his rank. Again, though, that doesn't necessarily mean he commanded a battlestar in much the same way that you don't have to command a ship in the Navy to hold the rank of captain. (I won't mention the novel which refers to Baltar as a Count rather than a Commander as we are not considering the novel for discussion purposes.)

However, in this case we're probably trying to shoehorn a changed character into some kind of continuity. I don't know if Baltar was ever meant to be this cowardly in the beginning. But then, he was never meant to survive the movie, so who knows what changes they made to him.
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Old February 22nd, 2015, 05:26 PM   #165
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Default Re: BG-08: The Living Legend

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Although I don't think that the basestars had taken "considerable damage" considering that all Apollo and Starbuck did was hit a small spot, it is true we have never seen a basestar whip around like I would suggest, so I won't be dogmatic about it.
Tolan tells Cain that "Scanners report heavy damage to BaseShips", after Apollo and Starbuck's strafing run, to which Cain replies "Let's go between them and finish them off," implying that he thought he had the time to do so. Does anyone know if there was more in the script, that was snipped out?
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Old February 22nd, 2015, 08:17 PM   #166
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Tolan tells Cain that "Scanners report heavy damage to BaseShips", after Apollo and Starbuck's strafing run
I do remember that line, but no detail. What did they mean by heavy damage? To what? That's too vague to infer anything. Certainly the basestar's main lasers were working. Their scanners seem to be working. Given that the basestars were holding position, we can assume their engines were working.

Since the flank missiles were what Apollo and Starbuck were aiming at, and the Pegasus knew that, we can take the next step and deduce that was what Tolan was taking about.

If we were to go the other way and say that their strafing run did indeed cause the type of heavy damage being proposed, then basestars would have to be very fragile capital ships. They threw what...? Three basestars' worth of cylon raiders at the Pegasus and they still didn't destroy her. Could one single viper really do that much damage to a basestar?

Admittedly, we are trying to read a great amount into a scene which was written simply for its pew pew action. Again, that's the fun in it.
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Old February 23rd, 2015, 02:53 PM   #167
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Default Re: BG-08: The Living Legend

A single Viper could, if, as Apollo said, "they can't fire at us without hitting each other". For a brief moment, it's open season.
pew-pew?
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Old February 23rd, 2015, 08:58 PM   #168
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A single Viper could, if, as Apollo said, "they can't fire at us without hitting each other". For a brief moment, it's open season.
pew-pew?

Yeah, a "brief moment" as you said. Get in and get out. After all, a battlestar was bearing down on them. Plus the fact that all one of the basestars had to do was move a little and no more crossfire, no more Apollo and Starbuck. So it really was a "brief moment". Blast the flank missile launchers and get out of Dodge.

To me, it stretched credibility past the breaking point to believe that very much damage was done to the entire baseship from such a short viper attack.
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Old February 24th, 2015, 12:35 AM   #169
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Default Re: BG-08: The Living Legend

Martok2112's Law of Storytelling:

"Logic and physics will always yield to the needs of dramatic storytelling."
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Old May 26th, 2015, 11:55 PM   #170
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Default Re: BG-08: The Living Legend

THE fan favourite; one of the most famous and iconic episodes.

Essentially Patton (1970) in outer space with Lloyd Bridges chewing the scenery as a complete and utter Alpha Male asshole. It also has the daffy relationship in which Cain (who is old enough to be her grandfather) romances Cassiopeia. Starbuck comes over as more of a prick than usual in this one as well with his jealousy and childish behaviour coming to the fore.

In any case it introduces the wonderful Sheba character who is at her best with Anne Lockhart in fine form giving her character some great quirks. The adventure plot is also one of the better ones in this series with the climactic battle being a major highlight and the raid on Gamoray being fun complete with dappy Cylon citizens milling about entertainingly.

The broadcast version of this is better than the fixup feature film adaptation: Mission Galactica: The Cylon Attack which melds this 2-parter with Fire in Space and cuts out loads to fit the 107 minute running time.

My rating:
or out of five.
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Old September 26th, 2017, 07:13 PM   #171
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Default Re: BG-08: The Living Legend

After watching the episode again on Me TV, I found myself questioning an odd detail. When Cain shows the video of Cassiopeia to Apollo and Starbuck, he says to them that they've obviously never seen her before, even though the two pilots are clearly trying to keep straight faces. For a commander who knows well in advance what the enemy is planning, how could he not figure out their facial expressions? Or is he someone who is great at strategy but not so great at figuring out humans?
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Old September 27th, 2017, 09:55 PM   #172
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Default Re: BG-08: The Living Legend

Cassie is a very emotional area for Cain. He is not here thinking as a military strategist, but as a man. Period. The man who eats Cylon BaseShips for breakfast is at sixes and sevens, when it comes to the women in his life.
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