Some Personal Thoughts

[Eric Paddon]

[This is a revised version of a post I attempted to make once before.]

These past few months have for me personally, been the lowest point of some 25 years of being a fan of Battlestar Galactica. More than ever, I am convinced that not only are the chances of a TOS continuation dead, but even more dangerously, the attempts that so many of us have made for years to see some respect achieved for TOS that has been denied it for too many years has all been shattered beacuse of the emergence of TNS.

God knows I'd like to have hope and look for silver linings in this ugly mess that now exists, but I can't look at what's going on with rose-colored glasses and think that the "success" of TNS (I use quotation marks because I think it's the ultimate joke that this program will be branded a "hit" for attracting a viewing audience one-tenth of what TOS was, yet TOS is still hung with the "flop" epithet) is going to lead to wonderful things for the future of TOS. I have been at too many non-Galactica message boards that I had to walk away from because whenever someone started a thread about TNS, it was done solely in the context of bashing TOS and showing zippo appreciation or respect for TOS. And I have heard Ron Moore's outrageous remarks in the DVD commentary and from his entire production team which has been one lie after another in terms of what they say about TOS to justify their end product. And while I will be the first to acknowledge that there are people of good faith and character who can be fans of both, the evidence remains very overwhelming to me that success of TNS is linked to running down of TOS into at bare minimum the status of an irrelevant "guilty pleasure" of the distant past, to be forever branded as "cheesy" and a "flop."

And when I see that happen to a property that I spent 20 long years of my life trying to stand up for with pride through long hours of fanfic writing just to at the very least see it get some long overdue respect as something that was equally good as its more ballyhooed contemporaries of the time it was made in (by which I mean Star Trek, Star Wars and Space: 1999) if not better in some respects, it does make me angry. Because this is not simply about passion for a TV show, this is about seeing in effect many years of our lives in which we gave our time to show our support for this show seemingly become worthless. When those like myself feel the need to express our anger at times in response to something new (which I think should be differentiated from just shouting "Ron Moore sucks!" out of the blue) we see, it isn't done from the standpoint of being overly obsessed about a TV show, it represents something deeper. It speaks to a loss of pride that people like me cherished for so many years in being a fan of Battlestar Galactica, because it was a name that first and foremost represented something I loved and appreciated. Now that element is gone forever and it's the loss of that sense of pride that was such an integral part in my being a fan that remains hard to deal with, and why more than ever, those of us who feel that loss of pride need an outlet to be able to express ourselves freely without being branded as "troublemakers" or that we're "beating a dead horse" because we express ourselves on occasion when we are genuinely outraged by the latest insult to what little remains of our pride as TOS fans in the face of all else that's happened, or that we are only bringing "hate" to the table rather than "love" when the issue is seldom to never one of commenting on people in this forum but rather one of our feelings on an issue that for the purposes of this kind of forum it seems to me, is a lot more worth commenting on than a lot of OT stuff that usually generated far more hate in Galactica forums between members than anything I've ever seen here regarding TNS controversy.

Do I wish there were happier things to comment on? Of course. Do I wish that TNS could actually lead to beter things for TOS ultimately, even if I still think TNS is awful? Of course. But at the same time, there is for people like me a cold reality facing the Galactica fanbase that in forums like this has to be dealt with and addressed openly (with respect for each other) and can't be looked at through rose-colored glasses just for the sake of aspiring to some level of "character" that I think most people who are still bothered by these developments don't have to prove they possess. I'm bothered by what's happening in Galactica, but it isn't affecting my life away from this place or the things in life I'm enjoying. I just wish that at a time when my life has been so much better of late, that Galactica could be giving me the kind of enjoyment it once did before there ever was a new series.

Just to carry this further, this morning my church had a fascinating guest lecture on C.S. Lewis and his wonderful "Space Trilogy" novels which was his way of using the science fiction medium to promote a Christian viewpoint in contrast to the way he saw authors like H.G. Wells etc. use the science fiction medium to advance a wholly different agenda. I was reminded of why I became such a passionate fan of Galactica in the first place, because it was a show that used the medium to create a universe more in synch with my own religious and political values. It was the show I could embrace with enthusiasm in contrast to Star Trek, which is a series that can entertain me but which I can not embrace with enthusiasm because it ultimately represents a universe and set of values that stand for something different entirely. But for those who appreciated Galactica because of those values, we often discovered that just as Lewis's perspective in sci-fi writing is basically all alone in a sea of literature where the Wellsian view dominates, so too was Galactica all alone in a sea of sci-fi TV when it came to promoting that particular set of values. But that was okay for me because when all was said and done, Galactica was still the one thing I could come back to and call my own no matter how many other sci-fi series got produced that reflected the dominant view.

But now TNS has taken that away because now the name "Battlestar Galactica" is being used in a show that no matter what one thinks of its execution, represents the value system that the original was in opposition to. It's literally as if Lewis's novels had been "reinvented" to serve the interests of a Wellsian philosophy. And if the "reinvented" version that in effect runs down the things that embodied the essence of TOS becomes what people think of in the future when they hear the name "Battlestar Galactica" then it is a development I can neither applaud, nor accept gracefully.

I believe it is imperative that those who consider themselves fans of TOS be prepared to defend TOS from the critical onslaughts of those who seek to diminish its standing through false and inaccurate information. Passivity in the past is one reason why the falsehood of "Star Wars ripoff" continues to hang over TOS to this day and at the very least, an active effort aimed at defending TOS (in a respectful and thoughtful way) can hopefully allow for the long-term preservation of what little remains of our pride as Galactica fans. It would also help if the disinformation campaign would stop from Ron Moore's quarter as well beacuse his DVD commentary was the ultimate case of a man trying to dance on the grave of TOS and its fanbase as best he could.

These are my personal thoughts on the situation as it exists. I have written this post because it is something I needed to get off my chest in the wake of some unpleasant things that have happened to me regarding this and other forums too. Feel free to comment or disagree on any aspect of what I have written and I will be happy to keep the dialogue going in the proper spirit befitting this kind of forum.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Thanks for posting this, Eric.

Very well written.

I can only hope people understand the message you are trying to convey rather than skim through it and bicker about it.

Again, well said and I applaud you for posting it, as a osBG fan and more importantly, as a person.

[nextceo]

Eric, as a TOS and TNS fan I do understand where you are coming from, even though I disagree. I'll have to chew on this more before dropping my 2 cents, but I can understand your frustration.

[Senmut]

CUBITS, nextceo. That's two CUBITS!

[BRG]

Hey Eric! Thanks for posting.

Like Nextceo, I'm a fan of both TOS and TNS. But I also understand and respect your point of view, even though I don't share it. And if I had spent 20 years hoping & fighting for a continuation of the original series, only for it to be scuppered just as it was on the brink of happening, to be replaced by a reimaged version that was an insult to what you loved. I think myself, and anybody else would feel the same way you do.

Eric, you said you needed to get this off your chest. I know you have been at the point of walking away from this place a few times recently, but I hope this means you have decided to stay. Your posts are always interesting, and the Fleets would be a much poorer place without your input and company.
BRG

[kingfish]

The sad part is the continuation can take place right now if Uni would let it. Warrior is 100% correct on that part. The continuation could include live actors and not be a cartoon. Want proof that two or two thousand battlestar shows can exist look at NBC's Law & Order franchise. The are three spinoffs of the original L & O series. Look at CBS's CSI series. There are two spinoff of the original [CSI: Miami and CSI: New York]. On a final note, fans aren't confused.

[Dawg]

No, the fans aren't confused. I think we're smart enough to tell the difference between the two universes, and Universal could make a lot more money than they are now - but Universal won't take the risk.

Eric - great post. Well thought out and well written. I find little to argue with even though we approach BSG from different angles.

There is a danger here of the misperception that BSG rules our lives - this is only a microcosm of life here, and since we just talk about BSG it might appear it does rule us even though nothing could be farther from the truth. I, too, have a full and happy life outside these narrow halls.

But in that facet of my life where BSG lives - I think the disrespect that has been shown since the DeSanto revival was scuttled is what has rankled most. Even Tom DeSanto himself was not spared that disrespect. And the most basic elements of TOS were discarded, ignored, and disdained - well, both we and the show we're fans of were belittled, disrespected, and marginallized from the moment Hammer and Moore stepped into the picture.

This says nothing about the quality of the new production, nor the quality of the fans it has attracted. This speaks only to the comments that have been made by the producers, and the perceptions of what was not taken forward from the original show.

Good post, Eric.

I am
Dawg

[gmd3d]

I also think its a good post .Eric well said .

[BST]

Eric,

I'm VERY pleased that you posted this. It's very long overdue. There is so much truth in the illustration of how TOS-Galactica fans have been treated, in the last few years, that it wouldn't be possible for me to single out just one item.

A very heartfelt

BST

**********

For the folks who champion TNS, my hope is that this post will serve as an educactional opportunity which gives a peek into our soul. The Original show, to many of us, is simply much more than a 1-year show which disappeared 26+ years ago. As Eric mentioned, it espoused many ideals and values that we hold true and dear. Through the years, OUR story has not been a pretty one, by some definitions - a tragedy and we've endured much sadness in our travels. When we speak out with regards to TNS, we aren't purposely trying to be mean-spirited or to rain on your parade and please don't misinterpret our sadness for hostility because it is not. For many, the new show just isn't our cup of tea. There is too much of the original "flavor" that has been replaced with something new and for many, the taste is very bitter.


BST

Eric:

I think the vast majority of people will say without a second thought that TNS is only here today because of the success of TOS. You will hear some people disparage TOS but for the most part it is a minority of people acting reflexively because of the tone of anti-TNS post by TOS only fans. These disparing people, whether TOS or TNS only fans are two sides of the same coin in my opinion. Most people who were around during TOS's original run don't look at TOS as a failure. I have heard this many times from the casual viewer of the day: "Battlestar Galactica (meaning TOS) was a great show. The network took it off and once they realized their mistake they couldn't get the original actors back. The new version (BG80) just wasn't the same."

TOS represented my political views at the time and reflected on the surface many of my religious beliefs. Time however has changed. The East-West conflict is over. Much of TOS was an analogy to the conflict between America, as represented by the colonials against cold, atheistic communism as represented by the cylon. As such TOS will always be a time capsule back to the time it was made. TNS is a time capsule of today in a world where our external conflicts are against religious extremist and internally we ask what is the role of religion and individual rights in our society. These themes are not better or worse, simply different and reflective of the times.

In the end ask any science fiction fan what in their opinion are the top five or ten science fiction television series of all times and I bet almost every person has the classic Battlestar Galactica somewhere on that list. The series is respected, will continue to be respected, and probably always will be respected. It was a pioneer of the genre and if anything came out a few years too early to control its cost.

TOS may never be continued, although I wouldn't count it out yet, but it is and always will be...a classic.

[amberstar]

Very well said Eric, a long over due post.
I agree with you and feel the same way

[Eric Paddon]

To all those who've responded and offered their kind words, thank you. Part of the context for writing this post came about because of an acrimonious break I had with the oldest Galactica discussion group on the Internet (the Yahoo group mailing list) that I had been part of since 1997 last month, and the rest came as a result of some threads that have cropped up in non-Galactica outlets like the Film Score Monthly message board and Home Theater Forum that left a very bad taste in my mouth. I have had my share of heated exchanges in internet forums over the years over subjects totally unrelated to Galactica (if you can believe it, my ugliest experience was in forums devoted to the Titanic!) but until this past year Galactica was always the safe haven to count on, where there was never an area of dispute like this one has been.

There are two points in your response, Antelope, that illustrate the differences we have now. You say that TOS critics are a minority reacting reflexively to TNS criticism, but does that account for what I think is the bigger problem, namely what comes from Ron Moore and the PR machine behind TNS?

Also, regarding the matter of the politcs of TOS being a "product of their time." To me, the set-up of TOS that has allowed it to have an enduring appeal is its very timelessness. The Cold War dichotomy of the late 70s merely carried over the dichotomy of an earlier era in the WWII generation, and a person like myself would say that the same dichotomy presented by TOS is a more appropriate description of the War on Terror today, and not the way in which TNS defines it. Of course that opens up what I feel is the most touchy aspect of this TOS-TNS debate, and the matter of which political perspectives TOS tended more towards in contrast to what TNS typifies (and most sci-fi in general), and that's one debate I feel the need to tread lightly on because I know that fandom of both shows or any show for that matter can not be defined as uniformly part of one political perspective or another.

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

There are two points in your response, Antelope, that illustrate the differences we have now. You say that TOS critics are a minority reacting reflexively to TNS criticism, but does that account for what I think is the bigger problem, namely what comes from Ron Moore and the PR machine behind TNS?

When I go to very pro-TNS sites, like Ragnar Anchorage I see some of the same thoughtless post by some TNS only fans that I see at very pro-TOS sites from TOS only fans. Both groups claim they are responding to what is said by the other side. I think both groups drive each other in a series of responses and defenses. I probably come off as "pro-TNS" when I am on a pro-TOS site and can say the same thing and come off "pro-TOS" at the pro-TNS site.

Ron Moore has always been respectful of TOS and the TOS fan whenever I have read anything he has actually said. I think people are judging him by his product not by his words or intent. He is not being paid to do a TOS continuation nor does he feel one is a viable commercial endevor.

The SCIFI PR machine is in the business of making TNS a success. They are going to say TNS, Stargate, and Manquito for that matter are the best thing since sliced bread. I am sure ABC said the same things about TOS and even BG80. When is a show ever remade when it is not called "new, improved, and updated to today's audience"? Don't take personally how every remade show is marketed.

Most of the articles we see that rip TOS have nothing to do with Moore and SCIFI, they are products of television and entertainment critics at various media outlets, especially newspapers. Look at any show that is rated G versus any show that has a sexual component, violence, dark politics, and anti-heroes. Modern critics take the dark anti-heroic show every time. The critics hated Saving Private Ryan, the Passion of the Christ, and many supported Pulp Fiction over Forrest Gump. This tells you who writes television and film critiques throughout this country. It's been this way for some time now. It's not a Moore or SCIFI PR machine. It's simply how it is for better or worse.

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by kingfish

The continuation could include live actors and not be a cartoon.

Yes, but that would be horrible. Hopefully Steamboy will soon teach American audiences that live-action is a waste of time and money.

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by Dawg

No, the fans aren't confused. I think we're smart enough to tell the difference between the two universes

What if we ended up with nine or ten productions (movies, and spin-offs), each with their own sets of initials. The initiation into the fandom could consist of memorizing which universe each is in. We're geeks, and should be rewarded with geek trivia.

[kingfish]

Originally Posted by Mustex

Yes, but that would be horrible. Hopefully Steamboy will soon teach American audiences that live-action is a waste of time and money.

Duh. What network executive is going to put a cartoon/anime on in primetime?

[Eric Paddon]

"Yes, but that would be horrible. Hopefully Steamboy will soon teach American audiences that live-action is a waste of time and money."

Hopefully Mustex, you will realize why anime is totally unacceptable for an entity called "Battlestar Galactica" for those like myself and those whose sentiments are the same about TOS as I expressed them in my initial post. Those like me want this continued in the format which we experienced it in, and I could care less whether anime is a superior form of storytelling or not, because that is *not* what I and the others patiently waited for these last 20 years.

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

"Yes, but that would be horrible. Hopefully Steamboy will soon teach American audiences that live-action is a waste of time and money."

Hopefully Mustex, you will realize why anime is totally unacceptable for an entity called "Battlestar Galactica" for those like myself and those whose sentiments are the same about TOS as I expressed them in my initial post. Those like me want this continued in the format which we experienced it in, and I could care less whether anime is a superior form of storytelling or not, because that is *not* what I and the others patiently waited for these last 20 years.

You waited so long, you deserve some interest. Anime can up the quality enough to cover that.

[Eric Paddon]

"Ron Moore has always been respectful of TOS and the TOS fan whenever I have read anything he has actually said."

His "popcorn" statement was anything but respectful of TOS fanbase. Nor was his entire DVD commentary along with Eick and the director in which he and the others could be heard (1) cackling over how Olmos's "don't watch" remarks helped give TNS more publicity than being conciliatory to TOS fanbase (2) declaring that TOS never had a syndication package of reruns (3) saying that Galactica had only endured as a "name" thanks entirely to the "Universal PR department" and not because there was an actual fanbase for it and (4)that the negative depiction of civilian bureaucrats in TOS made TOS "fascist".

I am just very hard pressed to understand where this "respect" for TOS and its fanbase comes from, because I made a good faith effort to listen for an olive branch to TOS and its fans on the DVD and instead I heard more salt being rubbed into the wounds.

As for the PR machine, I'm sorry but running a quote that says "Superior to the original" is hardly how I think any other PR machine for another "reinvented" property has ever gone about things. I remember with the POTA remake how Tim Burton almost always spoke in hushed reverential tones about the original movie and how he went the "reinvention" route not because of deficiencies in the original but because he felt he couldn't improve on the way it was first done in that area. I also don't recall the LIS movie going out of its way to promote how better they were than the TV series. Nor have I ever seen the newest incarnations of Twilight Zone and Outer Limits consciously attempt to declare themselves "Superior to the original" and to run only quotes calling attention to that kind of comparison like the DVD packaging for the miniseries did.

If you say Moore has been "respectful" of TOS and its fanbase I'd like to see some very concrete examples of that and then see how they fare in the context of his other statements and actions so we can see what represents the true feelings of this man.

[BST]

Originally Posted by Mustex

You waited so long, you deserve some interest. Anime can up the quality enough to cover that.

Perhaps an anime trailer, espousing the ideals of TOS could be a way to get a "foot in the door" with a financier. But, live-action remains the primary choice for the full production. A benefit of dong an anime trailer is that it would be quicker to produce.

Question: If original series actors/actresses did voice-overs, would that constitute involvement by the Screen Actors Guild (SAG)?

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

As for the PR machine, I'm sorry but running a quote that says "Superior to the original" is hardly how I think any other PR machine for another "reinvented" property has ever gone about things. I remember with the POTA remake how Tim Burton almost always spoke in hushed reverential tones about the original movie and how he went the "reinvention" route not because of deficiencies in the original but because he felt he couldn't improve on the way it was first done in that area. I also don't recall the LIS movie going out of its way to promote how better they were than the TV series. Nor have I ever seen the newest incarnations of Twilight Zone and Outer Limits consciously attempt to declare themselves "Superior to the original" and to run only quotes calling attention to that kind of comparison like the DVD packaging for the miniseries did.

A quote was also run stating TNS was "The most ambitious sci-fi series since the 'Twilight Zone.'" That means that it's superior to every show from Star Trek, to B5, to Andromeda. Why aren't their fans mad?

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by BST

Perhaps an anime trailer, espousing the ideals of TOS could be a way to get a "foot in the door" with a financier. But, live-action remains the primary choice for the full production.

Try reversing that. Maybe a live-action trailer, but an anime production.

[Eric Paddon]

There is no comparison between the incident you cite and what this experience has been. "Most ambitious since" is a comparison done in favorable context to the other property, calling attention to how important the original was, nor does the phrase mean "we're better than the Twilight Zone." The reason TZ fans couldn't get mad was beacuse there was nothing for them to take offense to, which is not the case in this instance. "Most ambitious since" is not a synonymous term for "superior to".

[BST]

Mustex,

Why do refuse to accept the answers that are given? If I was open to either possibility, I would have used the conjunction, "OR". The reverse scenario doesn't appeal to me at all.

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

There is no comparison between the incident you cite and what this experience has been. "Most ambitious since" is a comparison done in favorable context to the other property, calling attention to how important the original was, nor does the phrase mean "we're better than the Twilight Zone." The reason TZ fans couldn't get mad was beacuse there was nothing for them to take offense to, which is not the case in this instance. "Most ambitious since" is not a synonymous term for "superior to".

Eric, here's my post...read it fully this time:

A quote was also run stating TNS was "The most ambitious sci-fi series since the 'Twilight Zone.'" That means that it's superior to every show from Star Trek, to B5, to Andromeda. Why aren't their fans mad?

It didn't say it was superior to TZ, but to every show occuring from the time to TZ to 2004.

Oh, and here's a better idea. Why not show the Psycho people how to REALLY do a shot-by-shot remake. Exactly the same story, even encorporating the same dialogue recordings, but anime instead of live-action.

[Eric Paddon]

"It didn't say it was superior to TZ, but to every show occuring from the time to TZ to 2004."

It said nothing of the kind. That required an inference on your part because there was no specific language making that claim. Now compare that to the DVD package where there is specific language making a claim that is intended to cast TOS in an unfavorable light.

[Mustex]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

"It didn't say it was superior to TZ, but to every show occuring from the time to TZ to 2004."

It said nothing of the kind. That required an inference on your part because there was no specific language making that claim. Now compare that to the DVD package where there is specific language making a claim that is intended to cast TOS in an unfavorable light.

Saying "The most ambitious show since the Twilight Zone," means that no show since then could have been as ambitious. Hence logic leads to that conclusion.

[BST]

Mustex,

Interpretation of a quote is like beauty - it's in the eye of the beholder.

In other words, the quote says one thing, to you, and something completely different to someone else. Neither is "right", neither is "wrong".

[Eric Paddon]

Exactly, Pete. And that is precisely why a quote from TNS PR machine that would only require inference in order for one to take offense would be something I would not have any legitimate grounds to object to. When it becomes a matter of specific language aimed at being critical of TOS, that becomes another matter, especially given how unprecedented such action is.

Eric - I'm glad you've been able to get something you feel very passionately about off your chest as it sounded painful for you. You can't keep that stuff in, it's bad for your spleen so I'm glad you found an outlet. Also, this is an interesting thread to read through all issues related to the TOS/TNS clash and I'm sure it will help everyone better understand the TOS side of the issues. That said, I did just want to contribute a number of positive things that RDM has put in his blog/answering questions on the Sci-Fi site about the TOS just to share with everyone. I'm not trying to water things down but you were looking for some specific examples so I thought you might be interested in these:


About Baltar swiveling his chair at the end of "Tigh me Up, Tigh me Down":

Chair-swiveling is an old and honorable avocation for any accomplished and self-respecting villainous personage. How could its inclusion be anything but a loving tribute?

About the lack of egyptian elements:

The original series used elements of various ancient civilizations and I wanted to continue that element, but I didn't feel that the Egyptian motif, which they used predominantly, would be particularly resonant in this series. Greco-Roman influences were also present in the orginal, and I felt that Roman influences in particular would have resonant value given today's American society both in the republicanism (lower-case) and in the portrait of a culture that had ascended to a certain plateau, had driven its enemies from the field, proclaimed itself the guardian of truth and justice and yet was still prey to the same frailties and failings of all other human endeavors.

"Are you still working with Zoic for design work?" Absofrakkinglutely.

About the rank structure:

The rank structure is derived from the original series. I didn't want to change Commander Adama to Captain Adama or Colonel Tigh to Commander Tigh, so I elected to simply embrace the co-mingled nature of the original rank structure.

About Galactica's mythos:

There are a couple of notions rolling around in my head as to how we reconcile the very real fact of evolution with the Galactica mythos, but I haven't decided which approach to take. However, it was a fundamental element of the orginal Galactica mythos that "Life here began out there..." and I decided early on that it was crucial to maintain it.

More on mythos:

The mythology of the new Galactica is heavily influenced by that established in the original. I've always approached this project with an eye toward taking the original material and making it work in a new context. I still try to do this whenever possible. Does it make sense that there would be a star system with 12 inhabitable planets? Not really, but that was in the original and at some point I decided to run with that as another nod to the old show. The mythology of the old show centered around Kobol and the thirteen "tribes of man," so I've kept it as the centerpiece of ours. Not every single element is the same and not every element is even intact, but the roots are there. The point was to make another version of Battlestar Galactica, not just use the name.

About why the story wasn't a continuation:

I wasn't interested in the continuation story. I saw more to be gained by going back and retelling the tale from the beginning than by picking up the story 20 or 40 years later. I personally never thought a continuation was a bad idea, but it simply didn't interest me as a writer.