"Stealth Continuation?"-No Thank You!

[Eric Paddon]

Initially I was going to reply to the thread where John posted this but then I realized there is too much general criticism to merit its inclusion there so rather than risk violating forum rules I am making my comments on that subject in this forum. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, check that "Stealth Continuation" thread in the 2003 section.

To me, I hope Moore doesn't go anywhere near this because it would not be a pleasant development from my standpoint. Not only would this violate an integral part of TOS universe (the notion that Adama settles a planet other than Earth would totally ruin the whole point of receiving the Apollo XI signal at the end of Hand Of God and it would also violate the whole critical plot point of the SOL in WOTG giving the general coordinates for Earth) it would also represent a foray into the wrong kind of religous subtext for me. Galactica is a series whose strength (TOS) in terms of religious subtexts is its similarity to ideas drawn from a traditional Judeo-Christian framework and Judeo-Christian concepts of Good and Evil and faith. A Buddhist concept of religious thought being utilized to bring in TOS universe would not only be of zero interest to me, it would be as equally offensive to me from the standpoint of what TOS is supposed to embody.

For a person like me, Galactica's appeal on the religious level in TOS was how it appealed to a Judeo-Christian audience that has received very little respect in the annals of sci-fi television and to see it then invoked for a religious philosophy that like it or not is the not the majority religion for the society that Moore keeps trying to ape at every possible opportunity (contemporary America) says ultimately a lot more about a disrespect for the religious framework that was found in TOS, and which reflects the majority sentiment of contemporary America.

[Darth Marley]

I pity you for finding a Buddist depiction offensive.

I respectfully suggest that your reaction of "insult" to any depiction of religion that does not suit your personal beliefs greatly hampers your ability to evangelize.

If you are going to say in a public forum that you would find a Buddist interpretaion of a fictional story "offensive" but are going to wail and moan about "anti-religious" depictions, you should look to the beam in your own eye.

I find this particular post offensive for that reason.

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by Darth Marley

I pity you for finding a Buddist depiction offensive.

I see no reason to apologize for seeing a show that was sympathetic to the Judeo-Christian perspective being potentially turned into one promoting the values of a competing religious viewpoint that is totally in opposition to that of the other one, and finding that ultimately to be an offensive comment on the Judeo-Christian tradition by the show's writers and producers. I would also register my displeasure if a film version of C.S. Lewis's books stripped them of their Christian subtexts in favor of Buddhist ones and since Galactica was a show that made generous use of a Judeo-Christian framework (Mormom specifically, but one that owes many aspects to the broader framework), why should I consider it positive when the idea of suddenly reintroducing religion to the Galactica framework is one done from a drastically different context?

"I respectfully suggest that your reaction of "insult" to any depiction of religion that does not suit your personal beliefs greatly hampers your ability to evangelize."

This has to do with changing something set in one universe that drew from one tradition and deciding instead to do another one instead. I do call that insulting from my perspective of one who enjoyed Galactica because it was a rare kind of show that dared to offer something sympathetic for someone of a Judeo-Christian background and if this plans on being turned into something different, especially in a show that goes out of its way to ape contemporary America, which is anything but Buddhist last time I checked, then ultimately what I'm seeing is the supreme arrogance of a man like Ron Moore who reflects the Hollywood mindset of contempt for the Judeo-Christian perspective.

"If you are going to say in a public forum that you would find a Buddist interpretaion of a fictional story "offensive" but are going to wail and moan about "anti-religious" depictions, you should look to the beam in your own eye."

Then I shall be blunt. My objection to "anti-religious" depictions has always referred entirely to depictions of a Judeo-Christian type tradition. Hollywood has never had any problem showing positive views of any religious tradition that is as far removed from that practiced by the majority of Western Civilization, and that to me has always indicated a prejudiced mindset that when it gets applied to this context, only means more of the same once again and a nice reminder of why TOS was a special island standing alone in a sea of traditional contempt for those of a Judeo-Christian perspective.

[Darth Marley]

Your words indicate that a Buddist interpretation would be offensive to you, and you have repeated that claim.

Just like you have "registered your displeasure" with the religious subtext of a show you don't watch, I have registered my displeasure with your bigoted comment. The difference is, I actually read your post.

I don't want to personalize this, but you have made a comment that I find offensive.

I don't have to look to Hollywood to find a negative depiction of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

[Eric Paddon]

It is not "bigoted" for me to express my displeasure over the fact that a slap at the values that TOS stood for, which included sympathy to a perspective that has been treated like dirt for too long by mainstream Hollywood, is suddenly to be turned into an occasion where any use of religion must now be done in the context of something as far removed from the Judeo-Christian tradition as it possibly can be done. I would fully understand a Buddhist's objection if a property aimed at his niche were turned into something different like promoting Christianity and if that person did protest, I can guarantee he would never be labeled a "bigot".

And I did read your post, and what I see in it is a nice example of how people of an anti-Judeo Christian mindset like to use their favorite buzz words rooted in PCdom to intimidate people of a Judeo-Christian mindset into silence from speaking their minds on an issue of concern to them.

[Darth Marley]

Again, you miss the point.
You read my post, but complain about a show that you don't watch.

Now you make it personal and directed at me, insisting that because I do not agree with you, I must have " an anti-Judeo Christian mindset ."

Are you psychic?

History tells us that popes of the time thought Luther and Calvin had an anti-Judeo Christian mindset .

[Eric Paddon]

"Again, you miss the point. You read my post, but complain about a show that you don't watch."

I registered my objection to a story and plot scenario someone else outlined, as well as their comments on what religious perspective was supposed to be offered by this potential storyline. And I expressed the view that if a show that at one time represented an oasis for those of a Judeo-Christian perspective (who see thier views trashed by more sci-fi properties and by Hollywood than I care to count) is suddenly going to be pushing a completely different religious philosophy then that is something that would offend me personally for the same reason that I am offended by the fact that a show property that once was more sympathetic to conservative perspectives now champions liberal ones in politics, sex, family etc. Those viewpoints of mine never earned me the label "bigot" because they are not bigoted, and the viewpoint I expressed is not "bigoted" either except in the minds of those who have a complaint with people who are of that background. Disagree with my POV if you like and I'll discuss it with you, but it isn't "bigoted" except in your vivid imagination.

"Now you make it personal"

Excuse me? You were the one who made this personal to begin with.

"and directed at me, insisting that because I do not agree with you, I must have " an anti-Judeo Christian mindset .""

If you're calling me a bigot for expressing concerns over how a show that once showed sympathy to a religious perspective I agree with and in this new version wants to go in a radically different direction (yet is set in a society that tries in all other ways to ape a society where the Judeo-Christian tradition is the dominant one), then I see no reason but to think you've got a serious problem with those of a Judeo-Christian perspective.

"History tells us that popes of the time thought Luther and Calvin had an anti-Judeo Christian mindset."

Martin Luther was the one who simply nailed his 95 theses to the door and called for a debate on something which was all I did when I made my post and registered my own opinion in which I thought was supposed to be an open forum. You OTOH, were the one who chose to react like the popes of the time with some name calling of your own aimed at me that was completely out of bounds.

[Darth Marley]

As I see it, your claim to take offense if TOS were retold through Buddist filter, simply bacause it was told through a Buddist filter is exactly as bigoted as saying a remake that featured an all black cast would be offensive simply because the cast was black.

I am not the one demanding orthodoxy here.

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by Darth Marley

As I see it, your claim to take offense if TOS were retold through Buddist filter, simply bacause it was told through a Buddist filter is exactly as bigoted as saying a remake that featured an all black cast would be offensive simply because the cast was black.

I am not the one demanding orthodoxy here.

I am talking about a particular philosophical/religious perspective in the same way that I and others have in the past talked about their objections to TOS being retold through a different political filter (which is about ideas and beliefs) and nothing that involves racial composition of cast members, and there is a big difference in that and it doesn't involve any kind of "bigoted" sentiment at all.

[Darth Marley]

Since this has degenerated into another neverending Paddon thread, I'll just tell you I am done.

Your remarks, I find offensive. Your find something offensive about the new series. I guess we are even, though I am sure you will be true to form and try to get in the last word.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by Darth Marley

I pity you for finding a Buddist depiction offensive.

I respectfully suggest that your reaction of "insult" to any depiction of religion that does not suit your personal beliefs greatly hampers your ability to evangelize.

If you are going to say in a public forum that you would find a Buddist interpretaion of a fictional story "offensive" but are going to wail and moan about "anti-religious" depictions, you should look to the beam in your own eye.

I find this particular post offensive for that reason.

He didn't say "Buddhism is offensive". He said so radically altering the entire subtext of the show was offensive. Imagine somone doing a contnuation/remake of say Kung-Fu, but entirely altering the religio-philosophical base? To anything else, doesn't matter what. It would NOT be the same, regardless of what title you put on it. Imagine someone taking Botticelli's Birth of Venus, or the Mona Lisa, and having some drunken pervert slobbering all over the lady's breasts, in the name of "artistic re-imagination"? By altering the whole matrix of BSG, one turns it into something it was not. To do that, and keep the name, would be offensive to me, from a dramatic and artistic stance. One need not be Xtian to find it so.

[Eric Paddon]

Thank you Senmut for grasping the root of the argument as I saw it. This involves staying faithful to the source material of the original and when you change it to another agenda then you are inviting criticism. And yes, if a Christian producer suddenly remade Kung Fu and turned David Carradine into a Christian convert, I sure as heck wouldn't call the Buddhist who wrote in to object a "bigot", I'd have to concede his point in the interests of consistentcy!

It seems though, that properties that reflected a perspective more sympathetic to a Judeo-Christian one are always fair game for this kind of Hollywood alteration (after all, Hollywood is the only place that could make a film biography of the 20th century's greatest Christian apologist, C.S. Lewis and then proceed to remove all the importance of religion from his life and his wife's which was the whole key to their relationship, in "Shadowlands").

[Darth Marley]

Senmut, the notion that Adama and the colonials were Christians is absurd.
The show was written by a Mormon, but the colonials were not Mormons, and were not Christian.
To suggest that portraying them as non-Christians is a departure from source material is an absurd fantasy.
It is a fictional work with a fictional religion.
The notion that if it had a Buddist filter rather than a Mormon filter it would be an insult to J/C values is something that I find offensive and bigoted.
To the extent that the original had a positive protrayal of religion, it does not specify what earthly religion that would be.
There is at least one comment in the original series "thank the gods" that is conveniently dismissed to assert unknowns about the religious beliefs of the colonials.
BSG is fiction.
It asserts that man originated "out there" rather than created here. A radical departure from J/C dogma.

To suggest that telling the tale from another religious filter would be offensive suggests that other religious views are inferior. That is what I find offensive.
As a personal belief, everyone is entitled to theirs, but I see it as taking a shot at another faith, and I am shocked that anyone would percieve that as polite discourse suited for a fandom board.

The colonials were not Jews, and were not Christians, no matter how much one wants to portray them as such.
Because of that, portraying them as something other than J/C derivatives cannot be a departure from source.

[Senmut]

Quote me where I said they were. Not once have I said this, in any of the various fora. Quote me.
You seem offended that I disagree with your "enlightened" view. I am sorry, but I stand my ground.

[Eric Paddon]

"Senmut, the notion that Adama and the colonials were Christians is absurd."

No one ever did say that. The argument has always been how TOS is sympathetic to those who come from a traditional Judeo-Christian perspective with a monotheistic view (referenced on more than one occasion in the series), a belief in the moral absolutes of Good and Evil and universal truth (which is a Judeo-Christian concept, not the pantheistic notions of Eastern religion), the reality of the Devil as a fallen angel (show me where Iblis does not fit into that tradition) and that the Holy Book is rooted in its telling of REAL events and not just good stories, which is why Adama is looking for Earth in the first place. Adama's view toward the teachings of his faith is ultimately the same as that of St. Paul toward the Resurrection. If what it says is not true, then all he believes in is in vain. Again, a perspective from the Judeo-Christian tradition of Western Civilization religion, having nothing to do with Eastern religion that TNS now shows signs of wanting to champion.

"To suggest that portraying them as non-Christians is a departure from source material is an absurd fantasy."

The absurd fantasy is the suggestion that the original series can not be appreciated through a Judeo-Christian lens in terms of its approach to religion, which requires disregarding all of the internal evidence within the series, as well as the framework placed on things by the show's creator.

"The notion that if it had a Buddist filter rather than a Mormon filter it would be an insult to J/C values is something that I find offensive and bigoted."

Why? It is a reality of life that Judeo-Christian concepts and Buddhist concepts are not compatible. That's just the way things are. It's not making a value judgment on a practicing Buddhist, it's noting how for a show with the name "Battlestar Galactica" it goes against the artistic integrity of the original to change it from one to the other, and in the process alienates those who appreciated the original because it was a show that chose to reflect positions compatible with Judeo-Christian thinking.

"To the extent that the original had a positive protrayal of religion, it does not specify what earthly religion that would be."

Not in terms of a specific denomination, but in terms of a cultural framework that point is as specific as you can get. It's the religious tradition of modern Western Civilization, which is the Judeo-Christian one rooted in monotheism, absolute Good vs. Evil, the Devil, a Holy Book that is seen as literal history and not a collection of wise sayings. That internal evidence can't be ignored.

"There is at least one comment in the original series "thank the gods" that is conveniently dismissed to assert unknowns about the religious beliefs of the colonials."

Which only shows that there is some religious diversity in Colonial culture but whenever it is Commander Adama or his family, of whom we know is a practitioner of the majority faith, the singular is always used. To reiterate:

"And there I was like God" (Adama-Saga)
"Under the eyes of God" (Adama-LPOTG, the Apollo-Serina sealing ceremony)
"Is Ravashol, God?" (Boxey-GOIPZ)
"Not even God?" (Adama-WOTG)

"It asserts that man originated "out there" rather than created here. A radical departure from J/C dogma."

And your problem is that you are starting from the false premise that in order for TOS to reflect a positive view of Judeo-Christian concepts it must perfectly parallel all aspects of deeper issues of doctrine, when all we have ever noted is how its positive portrayal is with regard to the general Judeo-Christian framework which can even exist in this set-up. Or are you now saying that Buddhism does not have to be perfectly paralleled in TNS framework? Sounds very inconsistent to me!

"To suggest that telling the tale from another religious filter would be offensive suggests that other religious views are inferior."

No, this is about showing fidelity and respect for the source material. The Kung-Fu example that's been cited already makes nonsense of your claim, so I think we can move off this sideshow. But all I can say is that if you think it's "bigoted" to object to this change in source material and emphasis, I think it's intellectually dishonest to say that TOS is not reflective of a general Judeo-Christian framework in how it presents religious institutions and traditions.

"As a personal belief, everyone is entitled to theirs, but I see it as taking a shot at another faith, and I am shocked that anyone would percieve that as polite discourse suited for a fandom board."

So in other words, Ron Moore can promote Buddhism in TNS and no one who enjoyed TOS because of how it stood for another perspective can say anything about that? That sounds more like trying to intimidate people from expressing themselves openly in a forum on a legit POV that is related to previous debates on the change in Galactica's political philosophy and other things advanced by Moore that many TOS fans have objected to. In that context, the religious issue is fair game for that as well.

[Darth Marley]

I don't get your reaction.
You are saying that you understand EP's complaint, and see his remarks as justified.
If the colonials are not a J/C culture, then telling the story from a non-J/C religious filter cannot be a depature.

I am shocked that so many lines have been devoted to this.

Go ahead, stand your ground, I don't find fault with you for that.

The bit about "enlightened" view in quotes, is this another covert slam at Buddism?

[BST]

Rule #1: All members will be treated with respect. There will be no insults or derogatory statements made towards any person or group of people – under any circumstances. If you disagree with an opinion, fine, say so and treat the conversation as if it were face-to-face. But don’t attack. You’ll find yourself on the outside looking in really, really quick if you ignore this rule.


First thing I see, this morning, is this thread. Heck of a way to start the day!



Let's recall the title of this particular sub-forum and also, let's recall what is bolded above.



I WILL re-visit this thread, after work.




BST

[martok2112]

First off....I will second BST's directive and admonition on this.

Now, having said this....I will throw in my two cents in the interests of keeping the peace.


In no case of either the original show, or the new Battlestar Galactica are the religions depicted as Christian. I agree with Eric's assessment that the original show appealed to Judeo-Christian values...without being Christian. That it was a beauty at the time that it so positively portrayed an appelant to Judeo-Christians, when much of the time, yes Hollywood does tend to paint Judeo-Christianity with a very ill-colored, and broad paintbrush..

However, I am not ready to pronounce that the new Battlestar Galactica expresses Buddhist views. I have also heard monotheistic callings of the Lord in the miniseries, and I'm pretty sure in the first episode. I will be the first to confess however that Laura Roslin's swearing in as president lacking the words "..so help me God." seems to smack of PC'dom. However, it is also quite possible that in their Colonial society, it just never occurred to them to conclude such a swearing in, or other such official ceremonies with "so help me God" or any invocation of the Lord's name. (I cannot speak authoritatively on other eps, as I have not seen them yet.)

If anything, BOTH Battlestars Galactica depict diverse religious beliefs. In the original Battlestar Galactica, the Gemonese came across to me as polytheistic, while Capricans (mostly embodied through Adama) seemed to express monotheistic faith.

In the new Battlestar Galactica, the Colonials do seem to ground their faith more in the Lords of Kobol...and that is a much more common faith expressed among all the tribes. As I understand it, (from some spoilers I have unfortunately read) the show seems to be moving more toward the monotheistic nature (and perhaps even Judeo-Christian appelants) that made the original show so special to many people's hearts....including mine.

However, just as I cannot entirely base my judgments on hearsay, and cannot authoritatively say whether that is so...neither can someone honestly base their judgments on synopses and hearsay (especially from anti-TNS biased points of view). The only true way for anyone to draw a conclusion is to watch the show...and confirm or deny those sentiments.



Respectfully,
Martok2112

TOS can be most understood if one realizes that a significant part of the show reflects MORMON philosophy. Depending on your view of Mormonism this is either part of the Judeo-Christian philosophy or a radical departure and hardly related. The show starts with reference to the Toltecs and Mayans. We see reference to Egyptian motifs and Greek background. It would seem to me that TOS implies that the ancient religions of Earth as practiced in Egypt, the Greek world, and the New World are related to society on Kobol. Buddhism is a contemporary of those other eligions and should also therefor be related to Kobol in a TOS universe. All ancient religions and myths would in my opinion be open to portrayal in either TOS or TNS and be fully compatible with the theme of the show.

On Adama stopping and not finding Earth: This is also fully compatible with TOS. We have no idea what the colonist would do in the future, how long Adama would continue to lead the colonist (he wasn't young) and what their physical situation became. BOTH CONTINUATION efforts that almost made it to the screen were based on the idea that the fleet DID NOT reach Earth and finally settled elsewhere.

I personally believe they should go to Earth but my personal view does not mean they can't settle somewhere else. If I was a real civilian in the fleet in TOS cramped on a Colonial Moving ship the voyage to Earth for me would have ended at Terra or I would have rioted. I doubt the average colonist is willing to make a multi-generation quest if they pass Earthlike planets on the way and haven't seen a cylon in years.

[Dawg]

Larson & Co. blended aspects of many religious symbologies, if you will, into a cohesive foundation that suggested that the people of Earth descended from the same roots as the 12 Colonies (remember, too, that the 'ancient astronaut' theories were widely popular at the time). Given his own devotion to the LDS church, many specific rituals and concepts of the Colonial religion came from there - but it was not a Christian faith as depicted. It espoused many of the same basic beliefs, certainly, as all those religions that emerged from the Middle East. One God, for primary example.

Not so the Colonial religion of nuBSG. In another thread here someone copied some of the phrases out of the writer's bible, and one passage was about the Colonial religion - a polytheism. This means more than one God. For example, the Hindu, if I'm not mistaken, practice a polytheism containing a number of gods.

This is, indeed, a complete refutation of the basis of the original.

But I liken the nuBSG Colonials' religion to be more like Shintoism than Bhuddism. The practitioners of Shintoism worship their ancestors, not a single (or multiple) diety; their departed ancestors are gods. If the nuBSG 'Lords of Kobol' are acknowledged as ancestors, anyway.

However, the point is that the religious portrayals in nuBSG are so totally different than the religious subtext of osBSG that it is likely that some of the more 'Fundamental Christian' of our brethren are likely to take offense at it - and some of the less religious but still devoted osBSG fans will point to it and say that it is but another example of the utter lack of respect they have for the original material.

I am
Dawg

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by Dawg

For example, the Hindu, if I'm not mistaken, practice a polytheism containing a number of gods.



I am
Dawg

(doing best Apu impersonation)

Are there days when you feel like you've been 8!TCHslapped by a six-armed goddess?

Irreverently,
Martok2112

[Eric Paddon]

Martok, I will agree with you that I may ultimately be guilty of only judging a potential hypothetical that could happen in TNS. I had thought that my initial post's qualifier of "if this should happen" should have covered that, but I think on further thought some reiterating of that on my part on more than one occasion should have been done.

I do appreciate what you say regarding what TOS did. I saw it as being diverse in terms of what people believed (and that it was not a theocratic structure of no diversity and intoleranceas those like John Kenneth Muir tried to sugest in his book) but that it also amidst that diversity was making a statement as to which side represented the "true" one in this particular universe.

To Antelope, I will not dispute the fact that the Mormon elements that are blatant can't be ignored. This is why when I write a fanfic story I do not eliminate the items drawn from Mormon ceremony and tradition even though no one will ever confuse my personal beliefs with sympathy for Mormon doctrine itself. That respect for where Galactica comes from is what I try to follow and that I can't turn it into a perfect clone of my own views (even though I like to think the door is open enough for them to be harmonized within the existing framework because the show starts from that framework of a Judeo-Christian "filter").

And I regret deeply the fact that a free-for-all erupted over this. This coincided with a stressful moment on another Galactica list I've been part of for seven years and it left me feeling in a more combative frame of mind.

Originally Posted by Dawg

Not so the Colonial religion of nuBSG. In another thread here someone copied some of the phrases out of the writer's bible, and one passage was about the Colonial religion - a polytheism. This means more than one God. For example, the Hindu, if I'm not mistaken, practice a polytheism containing a number of gods.

This is, indeed, a complete refutation of the basis of the original.

But I liken the nuBSG Colonials' religion to be more like Shintoism than Bhuddism. The practitioners of Shintoism worship their ancestors, not a single (or multiple) diety; their departed ancestors are gods. If the nuBSG 'Lords of Kobol' are acknowledged as ancestors, anyway.

However, the point is that the religious portrayals in nuBSG are so totally different than the religious subtext of osBSG that it is likely that some of the more 'Fundamental Christian' of our brethren are likely to take offense at it - and some of the less religious but still devoted osBSG fans will point to it and say that it is but another example of the utter lack of respect they have for the original material.

I am
Dawg

This is a rare time I think you miss the mark on TOS.

In other discussions of TOS I have seen that many TOS fans seem to think that TOS is a polytheistic society and that the "Lords of Kobol" represent that fact. Also the beings of light imply that man may evolve himself into an angelic or God-like being. Iblis himself (Satan) is just an advanced but limited being. Depending on how you view TOS I have seen where people think it is either monotheistic, polytheistic, or atheistic. All of these views are compatible with an individuals belief system depending on how you interpret what is said. This may definitely be fans seeing what they want to see.

We also see in TOS that although we primarily see Adama's (Caprica's?) Mormon type religion that the colonies had an array of religious thought, much of which is alien to those not from their colonies, reference things like Cassiopia's treatment and the Noman situation.

Religion as practiced on TNS Galactica thus far reflects Grecco-Roman themes. The one scene with Kara praying is very similar to a scene from the pre-Christian Roman themed Gladiator. As the show progresses these themes deepen to include various Greek religious place names. Helo and Boomer are headed to Delphi (Greek temple in our history where Apollo hands down knowledge). Later episode involves "Temple of Apollo" on Kobol. The prophetic part of the story is a theme we see time and again in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

I think fundamentalist Christians could have issue with TNS but except those who want to see what they want to see they should have equally been appalled at TOS (unless you are a fundamentalist Mormon).

If anything at this point the TNS religious depiction appears more closely linked to the ancient Western religions than TOS which is more closely related to a relatively young offshoot of Christianity. Since Kobol should be the origin of both colonial and Earth religions at this early point TNS is more compatible with our earliest religious understanding.

[Eric Paddon]

"In other discussions of TOS I have seen that many TOS fans seem to think that TOS is a polytheistic society and that the "Lords of Kobol" represent that fact."

Except that they'd be wrong, because the four Adama references that have been cited should settle that question once and for all and render further discussion of it moot.

"Also the beings of light imply that man may evolve himself into an angelic or God-like being. Iblis himself (Satan) is just an advanced but limited being."

So too is Satan in the realm of Judeo-Christian tradition. Even he ultimately has his limits to what he can do (the book of Job).

"I think fundamentalist Christians could have issue with TNS but except those who want to see what they want to see they should have equally been appalled at TOS (unless you are a fundamentalist Mormon)."

You have not made the case that there is anything for traditional Christian to be "appalled" by in TOS (other than the more hardline aspects of Mormon doctrine that are not stressed more frequently than those aspects of Mormonism that owe itself to the traditional common Judeo-Christian framework). That's the problem I have with your arguments on this point.

[Dawg]

Actually, Antelope, those who think TOS represented a polytheistic society are mistaken. Yes, the characters repeatedly referred to the Lords of Kobol delivering blessings - but so do the saints of the Roman Catholic Church.

On more than one occassion, as previously noted, Adama references "God and the Lords of Kobol". I have never taken the BSG title "Lord" to be an indication of diety, but rather the equivalent to 'saint' or 'angel'.

So you see, my friend, I didn't miss the mark at all.

I am
Dawg

[peter noble]

Oh for Sagan's sake! © Lt. Starbuck

Peter

Originally Posted by Dawg

Actually, Antelope, those who think TOS represented a polytheistic society are mistaken. Yes, the characters repeatedly referred to the Lords of Kobol delivering blessings - but so do the saints of the Roman Catholic Church.

On more than one occassion, as previously noted, Adama references "God and the Lords of Kobol". I have never taken the BSG title "Lord" to be an indication of diety, but rather the equivalent to 'saint' or 'angel'.

So you see, my friend, I didn't miss the mark at all.

I am
Dawg

Here's where religion gets tricky:

Those who are not devout Christians sometimes make the point that "Christianity" as practiced itself is not a monotheistic religion. This is hard for those to understand unless you can take a step back out of your faith (not directed at you just trying to make my point). Although Christianity is supposedly montheistic it believes in a trinity of the all powerful God and a large pantheon of saints or other beings superior to man that can intercede with God on mans behalf. Western religion prior to Christianity had a powerful god, Zeus or Jupiter followed by a series of lesser gods for specific purposes. Modern Christianity, especially Catholism basically did the same thing replacing Zeus with God the father and established a pantheon of saints to replace the individual lesser gods. Even our concept of Jesus fits well into the pre-Christian Hercules cults. A person can therefor look at our current religion and see a polytheistic world. In the same way a person could look at TOS and interpret the show as either polytheistic with the Lord's of Kobol in a situation similar to the lesser gods of Greek time and the saints of Christianity or just as well view TOS as denying God altogether by showing the beings of light and Iblis to be nothing more than evolutionarily advanced physical beings with advanced technology falsly worshiped as gods, angels, or devils.

In the case of TOS I really think whether you think it is polytheism, monotheism, atheism or some combination therein is in the eye of the beholder and all these views are legitimate based on the episodes. It is one of TOS's strengths that it can simultaneously strengthen the beliefs of the individual viewers even though these viewers may hold opposite religious views. TOS therefor is a life affirming show to a broad base of religious and non-religious people.

Originally Posted by peter noble

Oh for Sagan's sake! © Lt. Starbuck

Peter

There was once a thread that seemed devoted to that saying. I think it was stated that it was written in as a homage to Carl Sagan but a point was made that by accident it could be taken that God to the colonials may be named Sagan.

[Dawg]

Oh, for Pete's sake.



God's name is Pete?





I am
Dawg

Originally Posted by Dawg

Oh, for Pete's sake.



God's name is Pete?





I am
Dawg

I think on that same thread I referenced someone brought up "Pete" also and that it was a derivation from St. Peter. Maybe Sagan isn't the name of the colonial God but the name of his right hand man guarding the pearly gates.