In Harm's Way

[ernie90125]

Darth Marley. To highlight the possible motives for creating the Re-Imagined Galactica were possibly not for the benefit of Galactica, and gain responses on topics like :


Dawg : Which makes me, for one, wonder why, since he was hired to remake BSG, he chose instead to remake a 40 year old WWII movie

Antelope526 : I just think this is far more than inspiration (bordering on plagarism since no credit is givin at the end of the mini).

Senmut : Whether one likes IHW or not, the fact remains that RDM blatantly copied it, put a bunch of FX in it, and called it Galactica


I also think it is likely some people would like to question the credibility of RDM. To further question the credibility of the mini, and cause people to ask just what it is all about....

HEADLINE :
TOS fans left rejected after re-imagined mini ruins BSG, and is exposed as plagarised work...


I think it would cause a lot of discussion amongst 'the powers that be'............

[Eric Paddon]

Trying to stir up a Moore is guilty of plagiarism campaign would IMO be a colossal waste of time. Moore is guilty of using a bad movie as the inspiration for his bad miniseries, but that is not plagiarism anymore than TOS "plagiarized" Guns Of Navarone and Dirty Dozen for "Gun On Ice Planet Zero" or the original Trek series plagiarized "Enemy Below" for "Balance Of Terror."

[ernie90125]

Maybe, but this is 2003/4 I think the audience asks for more then they did in the days of the 1970s....

I also think BSG deserved better, I thought that then and I think that now....

[Eric Paddon]

Granted, but trying to stir up a campaign centering on his use of a bad movie as his prime inspiration is just not worth it. It seems to me that you would have to by default accept the legal rationale behind the whole bogus George Lucas lawsuit against Galactica in order to make any kind of "plagiarism" argument stick against Moore on this. I think it's a lot more effective to just note that Moore's source material that inspires him only validates the judgment of his miniseries as a bad story concept.

[dvo47p]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

I'm not sure I understand what point there is to miss. We're all aware of Moore borrowing from "In Harm's Way" because he thinks it represents a great piece of moviemaking that the Galactica story should emulate. My take on that is that the movie isn't worth emulating in any new imagining, least of all Galactica.

All this jabberwocky comparing Ron Moore’s “Galactica-lite” to Otto Preminger's "In Harm's Way" is not in the apples and oranges arena.

Ron Moore only mentioned the wife/bottle comparison of Col. Tigh to Capt. Paul Eddington; he liked "In Harm's Way"! He is the WGA card holder, no poster hear (MOI AUSSI) has TV & movie credits, and it shows, in spades.

Spurious posts comparing characters of the two are analogies to natterring nincompoops using a mirror to compare anal orifices. Ron Moore also used Alfred Hitchcock in the same script mission statement. Now go forth and dissect Rear Window, Vertigo, North by Northwest, 39 Steps & Family Plot, if you can.

Although I think any letter campaigns on the issue are a lost cause I have speculated that if SCIFI and Moore did not secure the rights to remake "In Harm's Way" there may be a real law suit out there. I don't know anything about where SCIFI is in the rights issue. For all I know they may have them or may not need them. I do question why there is no credit since I think the mini is more "In Harm's Way" then "Saga of A Star World".

I liked "In Harm's Way" so I was not fired up when I realized what happened. I was however very surprised. When I tried to write a thread on the subject at SCIFI I found the subject embargoed as a thread starter. This was the original reason I found Battlestargalacticaclub and later colonial fleets in the first place.

[Eric Paddon]

I'm afraid I'm not getting the point of your post. Seems to me that given how much inspiration "In Harm's Way" gives Moore (by his own admission), that a dissection of the film itself and why it doesn't make for a good inspiration for Galactica isn't exactly out of bounds. From my standpoint, the very fact that he uses such a very unimaginative story when it comes to constructing the character and atmosphere of his story is reason enough to be critical.

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by antelope526

Although I think any letter campaigns on the issue are a lost cause I have speculated that if SCIFI and Moore did not secure the rights to remake "In Harm's Way" there may be a real law suit out there. I don't know anything about where SCIFI is in the rights issue. For all I know they may have them or may not need them. I do question why there is no credit since I think the mini is more "In Harm's Way" then "Saga of A Star World".

I don't think that point would be disputed, but using another movie property or basic story concept and applying it to new surroundings has always been regarded as fair game in TV. Classic Galactica did it in their share of episodes, and even unshot episodes, as the unfilmed "Two For Twilly" was meant to be a blatant borrowing of the whole premise of the Alec Guinness comedy "Captain's Paradise."

Now if Moore had made a movie set in World War II in the Pacifc using this kind of general plot, he'd be in trouble but not for something like this.

[Dawg]

Obvously, dvo doesn't see the connection you do, antelope.

And, no, going after Moore over a charge of "plagerism" wouldn't get beyond first base; it's foolish to even speculate. You'd need matching scenes and dialogue before there would be documentary evidence of any such thing. That he was influenced by another's work does not mean prosecutable plagerism.

Frankly, dvo, as a fellow TOS fan I'm surprised you aren't on this bandwagon; it's so much easier to dimiss the Moore mini as not being BSG if it was actualy a remake of In Harms Way, isn't it?

I am
Dawg

dvo47p:
Now that you repeated your personal attacks once again on the same thread on people interested in this subject please move on or review the entire thread again and count how many times you called us idiots etc.

If you don't see the obvious just move on and leave the rest of us alone.

Do you have a stake in supressing this idea? It sure seems to strike a nerve with you? (No answer required or requested)

[ernie90125]

Hi all. My purpose of suggesting a letter writing campaign was to highlight to studios and others of the poor basis the mini-series is based upon. We have seen this all along, however, perhaps they might see this now ?

I think if you create a list, as I suggested in my first post in this thread, and as I have now been doing, you get enough of the idea of how the two are so similar it cannot be coincidental.....

Dawg :
You'd need matching scenes and dialogue before there would be documentary evidence of any such thing.

No, I don't think you would actually. There have been numerous examples of litigation based upon similarities without exact dialogue.... If you were to create a timeline of events, and character arcs, and shows how the almost exactly matched BSG:2003, then this would be enough to show the very similar characters were following basicially the same adventure.....

There is nothing wrong with putting new people in famous situations to see how the new characters might cope... But the same people in the same adventure, encountering the same problems resulting in the same solutions is waaaay beyond that......

I think this strikes to the heart of the problem....

[ernie90125]

Dawg, does this below example give you enough of a 'You'd need matching scenes and dialogue before there would be documentary evidence of any such thing.'

>He meets his son after years as a result of military orders. He has an awkward scene >where he tries to talk with his son for the first time. To break the ice he asks his son >about his son's mother, his former wife. His son replies that she is remarried. They do not >patch up their differences at that time.

The SAME reason for the meeting
The SAME characters in that meeting
The SAME awkward feel to the scene
The SAME first question
The SAME answer to this question
The SAME outcome of this meeting

Now that the mini is going to series it is a non-issue. There is no In Harm's Way series to copy so everything he does will have a new inspiration. The show will live and die on ratings not letter campaigns etc.

Some people think "In Harm's Way" is a classic (that's why it's on the AMC <American Movie Classics>). As such I think many in Hollywood would consider it a stroke of genius instead of plagarism. Even if everyone came to believe it is a remake of "In Harm's Way" I doubt that would impact anything. I am willing to bet those in the inner circle know full well by now what Moore did assuming they didn't know all along.

[ernie90125]

In that case Antelope526, why did they pay a lot (I presume) for something any old 'tom dick or harry' could have done..... ??????????

[ernie90125]

For that matter, why didn't he base it on Saga of a Star World - I thought that is what he was meant to be doing in the first place ?????

4,000,000 people will watch a reimagined "Battlestar Galactica" not a remade "In Harm's Way"!

I also don't think that it will have any bearing on where Moore is going in the series. I think it is the differences from "In Harm's Way" that tell us that. I hope we are all pleasantly surprised by the upcoming series. Time will tell. Let's not argue that however until we see the first episode.

I have hope...but will switch sides if I think the series sucks!

[dvo47p]

Originally Posted by Dawg

Obviously, dvo doesn't see the connection you do, antelope.
And, no, going after Moore over a charge of "plagiarism" wouldn't get beyond first base; it's foolish to even speculate. You'd need matching scenes and dialogue before there would be documentary evidence of any such thing. That he was influenced by another's work does not mean prosecutable plagiarism.

Frankly, dvo, as a fellow TOS fan I'm surprised you aren't on this bandwagon; it's so much easier to dismiss the Moore mini as not being BSG if it was actually a remake of In Harms Way, isn't it?

I am
Dawg

Ron Moore’s Galactica lite was “Saga of a Star World”, dvo does not see the connection that is not there! Ron Moore in no way used, plagiarized, borrowed, by-passed or nodded toward “In Harm’s Way”, other than Col. Tigh being a cuckold & boozer. Was anyone raped? NO. If any “bandwagon” existed, I would be on it. Absolutely no one can establish what never existed!

Nurse Maggie Haynes is not President Rosalind

Carroll O’Conner/ is not Chief Tyrol

Rock Torrey is not Adama

Lt. (j.g.) Jeremiah 'Jere' Torrey is not Lee or Zac

Cmdr. Neal Owynn is not Baltar

RONALD D. MOORE HAS TAKEN GLEN A. LARSON’S BATTLESTAR GALACTICA "Saga of a Sar War" AND RUN WITH IT, NOT “IN HARM’S WAY”, GET OVER IT!

Indeed Ron Moore is using TOS episodes! I E - Lost Planet of the Gods, The Lost Warrior, The Long Patrol & Take the Celestra are in the works. Pray tell how does “In Harm’s Way” have a thing to do with these episodes? That’s five outta his thirteen episodes so far.

Originally Posted by ernie90125

In that case Antelope526, why did they pay a lot (I presume) for something any old 'tom dick or harry' could have done..... ??????????

THE SCIFI CHANNEL DID! SPOT ONE ORIGINAL SHOW IN THIS RESUME!
http://imdb.com/name/nm0601822

Spot the “original” as in not done before by someone better show?

dvo47p:
Please reread the entire thread so you can see where you already said the same thing and were already replied to.

Even if we give you that noone else is based on "In Harm's Way" for the sake of argument please expand beyond Commander Eddington to Admiral Torrey since in an interview I read and you're welcome to find in an internet search Ron Moore himself said that BOTH Colonel Tigh AND COMMANDER ADAMA are based on characters from "In Harm's Way" specifically Commander Eddington and Captain/Admiral Torrey.

I leave it to the reader and viewer to see everything else Ron Moore doesn't say.

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by dvo47p

[SIZE=3]Ron Moore’s Galactica lite was “Saga of a Star World”, dvo does not see the connection that is not there! Ron Moore in no way used, plagiarized, borrowed, by-passed or nodded toward “In Harm’s Way”, other than Col. Tigh being a cuckold & boozer. Was anyone raped? NO. ]

That's only because what was considered cinematic rape in the 1960s is what today's writers think you can depict as routine run of the mill stuff as we saw in the over-the-top sex scenes. This goes back to the idea of how that movie is a sex-obsessed soap opera as is the miniseries, which means drawing from "In Harms Way" and not "Saga."

"RONALD D. MOORE HAS TAKEN GLEN A. LARSON’S BATTLESTAR GALACTICA "Saga of a Sar War" AND RUN WITH IT, NOT “IN HARM’S WAY”, GET OVER IT!"

The man admitted his regard for "In Harms Way" so that makes it fair game to note the curious influence of this not so good movie on the not so good results. I'm not for letter campaigns but I'm all for citing the examples to make a value judgment of the badness of the miniseries.

In the meantime, there's no need to shout over this. It's an interesting sidebar to add to the miniseries discussion mix regardless of what one thinks.

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

In the meantime, there's no need to shout over this. It's an interesting sidebar to add to the miniseries discussion mix regardless of what one thinks.

Thank you and my thoughts exactly when I started this thread a long time ago!

Whether you like or dislike the mini I thought this idea can give us some insight into what Ron Moore did and maybe where he is going.

On the old days of the mini good and mini bad forums this was originally a thread on the mini-bad forum writen by myself a person who is pro-mini. Sometimes insight doesn't have a side.

If you don't see it or don't agree just take this thread with a grain of salt and read some of the other insight and discussion on the forum.

There are no winners and losers at Colonial Fleets just fellow fans who may see things from a different point of view from time to time!

[ernie90125]

Here are two quotes taken from various articles about a similar situation about the film Chicken Run, taken from online news site :

The multi-million pound lawsuit papers cite a number of striking similarities between Escape From Cold Ditch and Chicken Run.

An example is given in another article :

The central character in both stories is a female chicken -- called Ginger in "Chicken Run" and Fleur in "Escape from Cold Ditch" -- who leads the escape from a farm, the papers claim.


Hmmmm....interesting....

[dvo47p]

Originally Posted by antelope526

Does anybody other than me realize that the mini is more of a remake of "In Harm's Way", a black and white classic John Wayne movie than it is a re imagination of Battlestar Galactica?

I am a pro-mini person but unlike most those nights I was looking forward to seeing an old friend, Battlestar Galactica when unexpectedly another old friend came instead!

If you never saw "In Harm's Way" go rent it. Most of what Moore was trying to do will suddenly become clear.

Ok when somebody tells Adama the Cylon Base Star “Yamato” is coming to attack the Battlestar Galactica, and operation Sky Hook is doomed to fail if we lose this battle, Tigh rapes Kara, Rosin marries Adama, the Galactica is blown away, I’ll concede this thread has merit, until then & only then.

I’ll hold my breath because Universal had to make the “Saga of a Star War” in the words of Bonnie Hammer ‘to main the franchise’.

http://www.cinescape.com/0/Editorial...e&obj_id=35364

[ernie90125]

(There are no winners and losers at Colonial Fleets just fellow fans who may see things from a different point of view from time to time!)

You are right of course. Perhaps it is that I was 'hurt' by what RDM did to BSG, something I had loved all my life. Then he did that to it...... Then I realise that what he did to it wasn't even his own creativity, but another's......

I have being trying to come up with fan fiction, working things out in my head. If something comes into my head that I recognise from somewhere else, I always dump it....

But it would seem this is not the case in the professional world.... As I read all of the MANY similiarities between to two creations, I wondered why 'writers' are needed anymore. Why don't they just put it in a washing machine, as see what new comes out of what already exists.....

I think this shows a lack of creativity, from someone who has damaged BSG in my view, and hurt my childhood favorite.....

I give Antelope my greatest thanks for bringing this to the fleets attention...............

[ernie90125]

dvo47p You know it was people making hurtful posts that lost us CF for a while..... Please think about the effect of what you may quite in your many posts on a topic you have been politely encouraged to no longer contribute to.....

I wonder whether Moore and crew paid something to use "In Harm's Way" or at least spoke to some legal people about the issue. I also wonder how long Otto Preminger's estate can legally retain the rights to the book. Maybe it is a non-issue. I don't know but thought someone should have checked into this and for all I know maybe they did. Personally I remember that Eddie Murphy's "Coming to America" was successfully sued for a lot less than what we see here. I do think it sad that no credit was given whether they had the rights or didn't need them.

[ernie90125]

Antelope526 My replies have generally been along the theme of not legal, but moral and giving 'the best you can do' especially for a show he claimed he loved.......

I don't know if there is a legal case here, but I certainly think there is a case for a loss of credibility amonst peers and very much among fans.....

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by dvo47p

[SIZE=5]
I’ll concede this thread has merit, until then & only then.

If you don't think the thread has merit, then may I suggest you take advantage of the dozens of other threads in this board that might be more to your liking? That's one of the things I like about this place over the other one that I quit. There's an endless string of Galactica topics that can appeal to all and no excess amount of *really* OT stuff.

[dvo47p]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

If you don't think the thread has merit, then may I suggest you take advantage of the dozens of other threads in this board that might be more to your liking? That's one of the things I like about this place over the other one that I quit. There's an endless string of Galactica topics that can appeal to all and no excess amount of *really* OT stuff.

Oh this thread has merit, like all those uninformed reviews that 'Battlesar Galactica' was just a 'Star Wars' rip off. The reality of it is that Larsen had the basic idea before Lucas' 'American Gaffitti'.

Padden you may 'suggest' away. Indeed you go on & on re: lot of OT stuff quite often. I would not suggest you go elsewhere.

[Eric Paddon]

I think what I'm finding so odd in your stridency is that you're losing sight of the fact that I agreed with the point that there is no legal basis to argue "plagiarism" from In Harm's Way for the same reason that the whole plagiarism argument against Larson had no merit.

That aside, discussing the influence In Harm's Way so obviously has on this bad miniseries is quite legit if someone wants to start a thread on that matter, and if by extension that leads to comments on that film itself, so be it. If that kind of discussion isn't to your liking, it only makes good sense that one look for a thread he or she is more interested in rather than get needlessly ticked off.

Originally Posted by ernie90125

Antelope526 My replies have generally been along the theme of not legal, but moral and giving 'the best you can do' especially for a show he claimed he loved.......

I don't know if there is a legal case here, but I certainly think there is a case for a loss of credibility amonst peers and very much among fans.....

Getting the word on the issue into general circulation is probably the best we can do. I don't know how people look at this stuff in the Hollywood community. When credited it is considered homage. Maybe by Moore mentioning it to a small extent he thinks he is paying homage to "In Harm's Way" who knows. I do think it should have got a credit.

In the past few years we saw two money making movies that were a reimagination of The Oddysee(sp?need my spell check) (Cold Mountain and O Brother Where Art Thou) since the original Greek author is long dead however it is a non-issue legally. At least it got a credit in O Brother Where Art Thou. Never saw Cold Mountain so can't tell you on that one.