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Old October 4th, 2011, 02:24 PM   #1
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Question Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfBHDBtMFs8
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Old October 4th, 2011, 02:27 PM   #2
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' note even mediocre when compared to this?

Keep seeing this posted on fansites. Love how epic it is!
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Old October 4th, 2011, 02:43 PM   #3
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' note even mediocre when compared to this?

That was freaking AWESOME!
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Old October 4th, 2011, 03:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' note even mediocre when compared to this?

Great fan effects and very nicely done, but not a fan film imo.

A few thoughts on this.
A fan film could be done here if there was the interest in doing it,
we have the models and some attempts have been made and failed,
I was part of one before it dropped below the radar.

But would it have the necessary following and drive it needs, at one
time I would have said yes. but now I not so sure.!! that is my honest
opinion.

TwoBrainedCylon made a very good post on the subject a few days ago.

We have other things in the works here but real life issues are stopping
me for getting back to it. I hope to get back the the project here in a few
weeks. which would provide many modelling tools useful for such a
fan film here

If there was to be a fan film for the TOS created here it would have to
be animated through and through and using voice acting from this
fan base. as we are spread over the world and that would hurt a
live action fan-film .

we have some very good story tellers here. but few animators
with the same programs to spread the the animation load.

Its the only way I think it can be done. CGI.

here is a star trek story been done in cgi Star Trek: Retribution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w5I14YXnZU
by tnpir4001, who is posting it on colonial fleets sister site.
http://www.3dgladiators.com/forums/s...308#post266308

Live action has no chance of been done on less you create a small self contained story away from the Galactica.
the sets on the big G are just to big. but the cost would be
high for locations for sets that's if you could get the people
to get involved ..

The bridge of the USS Enterprise is a lot easier to work I think


That´s my thoughts on the subject at this time.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 03:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' note even mediocre when compared to this?

I wouldn't mind seeing a TOS fanfilm/CGI film done like that Star Trek Retribution. Bring back the original cast to do the voices.

The new Galactica vid linked at the top merely made me wish that the new series had kept the design of the old Galactica, sadly.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 03:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' note even mediocre when compared to this?

The video I posted is a fan film, or fan short.

Battlestar Galactica fan shorts (apart from David Kerin's last effort) haven't improved in quality over the years IMO.

The CG is still Babylon 5 level quality or worse and people are stil modelling TOS craft that are highly inaccurate.

It seems that there are a lot of excuses for not doing and no one doing.

Not being a fan of CG, I am more than a little biased, but someone had gone to a lot of effort in modeling, composition and editing to produce the piece that I posted.

What's the point of talking TOS fan films when the community can't produce a short at the level above?
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Old October 4th, 2011, 03:52 PM   #7
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' note even mediocre when compared to this?

I have no idea in the point of TOS fan films/shorts/etc beyond being a slight optimist. Besides, I am prone to being a writer and have no insight into the film/tech/etc side of fandom.

Just would be nice if something happened is all. If it never did, so be it. It was a nice thought whilst it lasted.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 04:01 PM   #8
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' note even mediocre when compared to this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter noble View Post
The video I posted is a fan film, or fan short.

Battlestar Galactica fan shorts (apart from David Kerin's last effort) haven't improved in quality over the years IMO.

The CG is still Babylon 5 level quality or worse and people are stil modelling TOS craft that are highly inaccurate.

It seems that there are a lot of excuses for not doing and no one doing.

Not being a fan of CG, I am more than a little biased, but someone had gone to a lot of effort in modeling, composition and editing to produce the piece that I posted.

What's the point of talking TOS fan films when the community can't produce a short at the level above?
Quite frankly it's easier to do the nubsg stuff since it's still a fresh take sorta say. There are a lot of nubsg ship's (high quality) that have been built by artists that are high quality and some even have the lighting rig's already attached in the files. Importing and editing along with some animation is quick and easy for this. Now comes the hard part. There still is not a HIGH quality Galactica TOS model available to anyone that could make a fan film like that and really stand out as such. Plus the only true TOS Basestar with any type of quality is mine but again it's unfinished. And yes along with the Galactica that is unfinished. Now if i were to cut a lot of corners and i mean A LOT i could bring something to bear but again i'd sacrifice quality to push a production. Hence this is why you do not see much quality with the TOS stuff.

Taranis is correct about one thing...freakin real life is the key. And it get's harder and harder to accomplish anything.

I know it's no excuse but it's the truth.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 04:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' note even mediocre when compared to this?

If we stay on track with the current project in the shipyards we will eventually have a decent library of 3D assets. Without those you cannot do anything. As far as live action goes, we are just too small a community to make that happen. Now maybe some green screen stuff with CG sets and backgrounds could be possible.but thats about it

Another creative possibility could be using a realtime game engine such as Cryengine or UDK. I am currently working on porting all my BSG assets to Cryengine 3. Believe me its fun to run around a BSG environment interactively in realtime. My ultimate goal is a BSG adventure story told through an action FPS with some RPG elements. At some point I'll post some vids, probably when I finish getting my Centurion character model working right.

One things for sure, the tools keep getting better and better. Its now not unusual to have the computer/software capabilities at home, that in the past were only available to studios.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 05:15 PM   #10
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' note even mediocre when compared to this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter noble View Post
The video I posted is a fan film, or fan short.

Battlestar Galactica fan shorts (apart from David Kerin's last effort) haven't improved in quality over the years IMO.

The CG is still Babylon 5 level quality or worse and people are stil modelling TOS craft that are highly inaccurate.

It seems that there are a lot of excuses for not doing and no one doing.

Not being a fan of CG, I am more than a little biased, but someone had gone to a lot of effort in modeling, composition and editing to produce the piece that I posted.

What's the point of talking TOS fan films when the community can't produce a short at the level above?
Sorry I not taking anything away from it... its great top work, but for me its only the visuals or the eye candy, no dialogue or actors, so to speak that is for me makes a film, or fan-film.
just how I view the subject, no offence to any.

Just want to touch on something else you said about the quality of models and such. it takes hundreds of hours to build a model, as we know from Titon, and I am no where near as good as he is.

it take just as long to render any decent film like the one you posted (and I am not an animator). with after effects and such.

The only Galactica model I have is Folkrm,s and its very detailed and would take hours to render out frame by frame. you need a decent pc to do it or a render farm .

you say there are a lot of excuses for not doing it. I think that
is a little unfair perhaps the demands for excellence is also unfair most of us are hobbyists and not in the pro field at all.
would it not be just as awesome to have a fan film CGI or other wise at B5 standard with a awesome character driven story??

I have no problem with B5 visuals at all and think they hold up very well, perhaps that very demand pushes possible fan film makers and animators away.

If I was going to do a fan film CGI I would reduce much of the Galactica detail as much as possible to make it work, I would focus on a top story perhaps by Steve (Martok) to name one. we have the Vipers and shuttle and most of the bridge and partly the shape of corridors and barracks. (not viewable to all members)

it could be done, but it won´t, real life has put its boot in and most of us are struggling with it time wise.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 06:10 PM   #11
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' note even mediocre when compared to this?

For me the free time to model and such comes and goes, a lot of times unplanned. What I've been trying to do lately is just get a little progress done when I can. It all adds up eventually.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 09:03 PM   #12
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' note even mediocre when compared to this?

I plan on picking up iClone 5 (which is what I use to animate my Blender made starships), and the nice thing is, it actually has cel-shading capability, which would be quite conducive to my particular models....whilst they are highly detailed, they are not near as detailed as other models I've seen.....so the "animated series" look would go well when I resume my Galactica project.
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Old October 4th, 2011, 09:31 PM   #13
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

I must say, that film short was pretty impressive...right down to the camera moves. I know that it's probably not studio quality, but it's gorgeous to watch. If I didn't know better, I would've mistaken it for footage from TNS. I'm always impressed when someone manages a decent film short using CGI. I can't even begin to understand how it's all done. I can draw the old fashioned way, but I can't manage to even deal with a program like Photoshop.

There are some pretty terrific efforts made by a lot of homegrown CGI artists out there in the SciFi genre. When I think to how the effects for web based series like Star Trek New Voyages/Phase II have progressed over the years to what they currently look like, it makes even the remastered TOS Trek episodes look a tad amateurish.

I'm definitely no expert, but I can understand what Don is saying about the CGI files being available. I suppose that's the advantage that TNS had with CGI models, where TOS BSG had scale filming models. Trying to recreate those without intimate knowledge of how they were originally built makes replication pretty dodgy.

I'm still very impressed by what the local CGI artisans like to show us every now and again. If anything, it will only improve over time.

Bryan
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Old October 4th, 2011, 11:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

Bryan,
You are spot-on about the difficulty of trying to re-create the original models in CG. Source material is real hard to find. I have a growing library of reference images where I save any image I can find that shows some detail of a model or set, it's basically all we have now.

For example;
While working on my bridge model for every hour of 3d modeling I have spent at least twice as long taking screen captures from dvd copies of the series trying to see every possible detail I can find.

The physical model designs are also harder to duplicate than the models that began life as CGI. The new design CGI models tend to have much less random details, in fact the small detail parts (when present) frequently look very procedural. The NuBSG Battlestar "ribs" for example look very "copy-paste-scale-repeat" vs the "battleship" look of the Galactica. One style is an order of magnitude more complicated than the other, you can guess which.
Also compared to Trek (especially TNG and newer) Battlestar is very "nuts and bolts hardware". It looks like something people would build. Trek OTOH tends to have a utopian smooth plastic look, which is much easier to duplicate in cgi.

BTW, I lived in Citrus Heights for a little while (1989), small world.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 01:44 AM   #15
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

Titon and others (punisher454 I think)pointed out that once that the BIG G was not symmetrical, i.e. one side is different than the other. how I don´t know as I have never studied it that hard.

Which go me thinking that perhaps one side of the ship is the Galactica and the other side for another battlestar as required another random thought.

I would as much as all here love to see a fan film made here by this fan base, it would be a great undertaking.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 04:49 AM   #16
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
Titon and others (punisher454 I think)pointed out that once that the BIG G was not symmetrical, i.e. one side is different than the other. how I don´t know as I have never studied it that hard.

Which go me thinking that perhaps one side of the ship is the Galactica and the other side for another battlestar as required another random thought.

I would as much as all here love to see a fan film made here by this fan base, it would be a great undertaking.
That is correct. A lot of the details on the port and starboard of the ship are different and that makes it doubly as difficult. In my eyes it would make sense that the ship would be the same from one side to next but it was not kitbashed that way. In my case i have been doing it as a mirrored object but again the purest's would certainly see the difference.....but i'm getting to the point that it might be easiest to recreate it the way they originally would have...as a symetrical ship. Come to think of it you never seen the one side of the ship hardly at all except in a few shot's.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 05:37 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

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That is correct. A lot of the details on the port and starboard of the ship are different and that makes it doubly as difficult. In my eyes it would make sense that the ship would be the same from one side to next but it was not kitbashed that way. In my case i have been doing it as a mirrored object but again the purest's would certainly see the difference.....but i'm getting to the point that it might be easiest to recreate it the way they originally would have...as a symetrical ship. Come to think of it you never seen the one side of the ship hardly at all except in a few shot's.
that is what I was thinking for some time now.

could it have been planned that way for that very purpose to save on the cost of building 2 different models.

when we see the battlestar Pegasus you can see they lit it (as it appears to me) differently but there looks to be more detail or its arranged differently.

I have more thoughts on this and I have to run out at the moment. so I will continue later
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Old October 5th, 2011, 02:31 PM   #18
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

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that is what I was thinking for some time now.

could it have been planned that way for that very purpose to save on the cost of building 2 different models.

when we see the battlestar Pegasus you can see they lit it (as it appears to me) differently but there looks to be more detail or its arranged differently.

I have more thoughts on this and I have to run out at the moment. so I will continue later
I do not think they planned it that way it just simply came out that way. They simply had removeable nameplates. That side of the ship by the way was damaged somewhat from the begining and the landing bay on that side sagged a bit.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 03:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

IIRC, the original SoaSW script described battlestars of all shapes and sizes. This is reflected in the first pages of the Marvel comic book as the fleet is on its way to Cimtar. It wasn't until they got into production that they decided to do one model for the entire class of vessel and, yes, had removable name plates as the only significant difference.

Later on, for "Living Legend", they penciled in extra detailing on the port-side landing bay to give the Pegasus a slightly different look from the Galactica.

I could be in error about some of these things, as it's been a long time since I read the original script/novelization, but I think that was the original plan.

As for the asymmetry of the filming miniature itself, I think that was nothing more than an artifact of a large model, comprised of several thousands of random parts, being built by human hands under a tight deadline, rather than the symmetrical "perfection" that can be attained via CGI now-adays.
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Old October 5th, 2011, 03:31 PM   #20
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

ahh good points ...
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Old October 5th, 2011, 11:27 PM   #21
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

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As for the asymmetry of the filming miniature itself, I think that was nothing more than an artifact of a large model, comprised of several thousands of random parts, being built by human hands under a tight deadline, rather than the symmetrical "perfection" that can be attained via CGI now-adays.
BUT....during a long service life, any ship can pick up "asymmerty", due to battle damage, modifications, refits of various sorts, installations of one sort or another of new equipment, et al.
Good enough excuse?
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Old October 5th, 2011, 11:56 PM   #22
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

Asymmetry is present in just about all types of craft. Look at a battleship for example. The basic design is symmetrical, but the smaller detail parts are not.
Asymmetry has even crept into the automotive world, have you seen the backside of those little Nissan Cube things?
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Old October 6th, 2011, 09:33 AM   #23
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BUT....during a long service life, any ship can pick up "asymmerty", due to battle damage, modifications, refits of various sorts, installations of one sort or another of new equipment, et al.
Good enough excuse?
Yup! Good in-universe explanation - particularly in light of the constant pounding those ships had taken in their 500+ yahrens of service.
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Old October 6th, 2011, 07:57 PM   #24
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

Sorry, the CGI on that was real good, but it was the music that made it seem special.
And, it wasn't TOS.

Meh.
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Old October 6th, 2011, 11:09 PM   #25
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

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Yup! Good in-universe explanation - particularly in light of the constant pounding those ships had taken in their 500+ yahrens of service.
Thanks.
Also, IIRC, in the TLL novelization, differences between the two battlestars was mentioned, and chalked up to battle damage, and cain having no spacedock to retreat to.
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Old October 9th, 2011, 02:13 PM   #26
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

Personally, I thought it was average. It was spaceships flying around with Particle Storm effects composited in After Effects or Nuke. Someone obviously spent a fair amount of time on it and they are on the brink of being a really good animator. It wasn't enough to WOW me.

As for the other issues, at the risk of being a heretic, -- who cares if a particular Galactica model is only 90% accurate. Are there sincerely more than 30 people who would watch such a fanfilm and give a damn? I completely commend Don for the accuracy he puts in his models but the layout of pipes and such don't really bug me as much as it does others. I would never suggest just shoving any model forward that only has the right basic shape but there's a point in which the nitpicking causes you to miss the real purpose of a fanfilm. I know that in Don's case, he has other concerns as to why he's making the models but for the rest of the community, there should be something of a balance.

Of course, I'm the guy who watched a different bridge on every Star Trek film and didn't care.

Having said that, I also think Peter's comparisons are a bit unfair. This fanfilm was almost certainly made by a kid who can spend endless hours cranking out his CG animations. He doesn't have to pay a mortgage. He doesn't have to worry about whether his wife is feeling neglected. He enjoys an isolated bubble that I doubt most of the rest of us can enjoy. We were in the same bubble in the late 70s but our lives have all changed. (I may have just unfairly slandered this artist but I think its a likely answer).

Having recognized that, I also tend to disagree with some other assessments I've read in this thread. What many of us lack in time we bring in resources. I don't agree that a live action fanfilm is outside the realm of possibility on technical merits. I don't think I'm bragging to say that were I motivated, I could produce a live-action, episode length, HDTV Galactica episode in six months that would at least be comparable in quality to an episode from the series. (I do not make this statement lightly). Depending on the other resources, it might reach near the technical quality of GINO. I say this as I've learned a lot over the past three years as to how Disney and Universal Studios puts together a lot of their stuff and have just noted the "paperclip and scotch-tape" wonders that Lucas and company did with the original Star Wars.

If it became absolutely necessary, I could fund it all from my own pocket (again the resources thing).

It will never happen.

This fanbase doesn't have the mutual support required to even make the time everyone spent on creating such a work worthwhile. If it were marketed up to the larger world, the copyright police would be on us all faster than we could blink.

Under either scenario, the end results would be a lot of unneeded misery.

As for the voiceovers for an animated work, -- not an issue at all. I currently live in the world of VOs. Its not as difficult as you think and I'm talking about professional voice actors but again, you have to solve the copyright thing. I don't currently know anyone who has the animation skills and also has no life that can make something worthwhile for Galactica. (Sorry but I thought the Star Trek Retribution thing was really lame). If someone wants to do a quality animated film but is stuck because they can't get the voices, contact me as I can solve your problem in minutes but the production would have to be of a better quality than that. (In other words, it would have to be something that someone would actually want to watch more than once).

Personally, I think it would be immensely easier to make a live action episode than a good animated short but it would have to be managed by someone who actually knew something about film making, storycraft, visual effects, and sound design. I don't think that this community has enjoyed anyone who is smart enough to have all these skills but concurrently been dumb enough to take on such a project.

If it sounds like I'm off in left field, rather than wondering why we've not seen a video like the spaceships shooting at each other vid, I would ask why we've not seen something like this http://www.youtube.com/movie?v=9H09x...&feature=mv_sr . As I regard time to be more critical for most who read this than money, this should be the standard that everyone should be wondering about.

All my best,


Russell
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Old October 9th, 2011, 02:25 PM   #27
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

Russell your right and i believe even though 30 people might think it's cool it's always been my dream to build the Galactica the way she was. But again i find it to be such a daunting task that it might be time to rethink that scenario. The Galactica herself could certainly use refinements since in all honesty if cg technology existed back then i would imagine she would have been presented differently. Take for instance simple gun emplacements. Since this thread opened up i have had the urge to relook at how i have been progressing with this build. I think i have been spending to much time trying to recreate this ship in it's former glory. What's missing in my eye's is a technology upgrade.

Simply put it might be time to put an artist's touch to a project that has been in the works for me for nearly 10 years. I have the correct length and overall look is to a tee so why not change the dynamics a bit. There will always be that ever apperent noticeable piece but i think i will put my own flare to it and move forward.
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Old October 10th, 2011, 02:40 AM   #28
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

Having read Russell´s post .. I have to agree in what you say mate. having no experience in film world there are many things I just don´t know. I am in the not smart enough group. having tried it a few times
In fact using your audio work as a basis of my argument supporting your skills at story telling "Exodus". which I think is a great story and one that I listen to once a year.

I think you could easily do it given the opportunity, I think its the support for such projects that this fan-base lacks, when you see work done by a few members here that keep trying to model and animate Martok been one of them.

There are a few members that comment in these threads, oh you get plenty of visitors. but few comments good bad or indifferent. and comments I think is fuel for the artist and keeps him or her going.

Titon I agree with your assessment of the Galactica model. go for it
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Old October 10th, 2011, 05:07 AM   #29
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

Quote:
Titon I agree with your assessment of the Galactica model. go for it
.

Thanks Taranis. I have tried to hard to be correct but quite frankly a full cg model of the Galactica with some of the kit parts just does not make any sense. Plus i think i am missing out on a golden opportunity to give her a shot in the arm by adding my own artistic touches. I am not talking about completely redesigning her just adding details that were not part of the original creation.

I will see what i can come up with and try to move her forward somewhat.

Anyone else have thoughts on this? Peter? Sandy? Darrell?.....bueler??
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Old October 10th, 2011, 05:42 AM   #30
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Default Re: Why are TOS 'fan films' not even mediocre when compared to this?

Don,

I was never suggesting what you should do. I believe you should do what is best for you. If I were to give you a strong nudge/shove, I'd say that your modeling skills are a true marvel and its a shame that the models you've made haven't been gracing computer screens and HDTVs throughout the world. But, I'm also the first to say that you should do what is best for you and I will always support you. I've always had far too much respect for you to pretend that I had the really smart answers as to what you should do with your talents. Also, as I said, I know that you were building those models with other considerations.


Gerard,

If you're willing to flush away some of the magic of your fantasies and you concurrently have the resources to watch the new Star Wars Blu-Ray on a large HDTV, the reality check you gain is amazing. What was pure magic in 1977 is in the hands of anyone who is truly ambitious in 2011. I was surprised watching these films at just how much of their activity takes place inside some rather ordinary looking paintings. That's not just true of the original trilogy. If you look in the backgrounds in "Attack of the Clones" and "Revenge of the Sith" you'd be surprised at how plain they are compared to the modeling in the rest of the film. I took a hard look at how these films were put together and realized that for all his many faults, Lucas was a master at knowing precisely where to focus a viewer's attention. This is especially prominent in the original Star Wars, where some things you might think are quite well done are basic as Hell. Vader's costume is an example. I've seen the original and its a lot more simple than you probably think. It works well on screen because the lighting and camera viewpoints are expertly done. Similarly, the entire film is an icon of how to make average props and sets look stunning.

Now take that theory and apply it to this test shot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYX93...eature=related .

Apply this concept to a mixture of the CG models available, the physical models (like Mark Bradley's shuttles and vipers) and what you might slap together in a makeshift studio (which could literally be someones garage).

To be fair, this would be much easier if it were led by someone who was geographically near the right resources. Anyone in LA or NYC would have a big advantage. I'm near Orlando which is a good secondary but this only allows an advantage, its not a critical factor. In my mind, storage space and a good shooting set are far more important.

However, the real power is in the technology. Everyone focuses on the CG programs but there's an amazing strength in the Adobe CS5 package that I'd argue surpasses what Lucas had available to him in the 1970s/1980s. Likewise, the advancements in prosumer video over the past 2 years is truly stunning. This is why I think a live action film would be in the range of possibility. I think a smart filmmaker could do believable interiors of the Galactica through compositing and some greenscreening with only a few forward props required.

This is why I don't think the challenges are technology. I think its time, copyright, and fanbase support.

Lastly, glad you like Exodus. I'm pretending it doesn't exist. It was a good learning project but now just thinking about the bad quality of the piece makes me wince. That's why I hire professional actors these days.

I'll stop babbling now.

All my best,


Russell
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