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Old December 13th, 2006, 02:36 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
WarMachine, it isn't a question of their not being "allowed" to do post-HOG stories, it's a question of them purposefully deciding not to do so for what has to rank as the dumbest rationale I've ever heard from anyone, that because too many people in the TOS fanbase have their own ideas of what should happen, they would not be able to please everyone but "core" TOS fans, so therefore they decide that stuck-in-a-rut storytelling that constantly undermines the very premises of the original episodes themself is somehow a better way to go.
You're kidding.....you're NOT kidding.

That's the most asinine thing I've heard in a long time.

That's enough to get me to start shopping for a comic artist to ink VS2 and 'Fields'.....


[SET RANT MODE TO "ON"]

WTF?!

What the Hell happened? I'm starting to feel like Steve McQueen at the end of "Sand Pebbles": WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED!?

I'm not kidding - I'm getting seriously p*%%ed off about this.

Did I miss a meeting? 'Cause from where I'm sitting, it sure as HELL feels like I just woke up one morning about 8 years ago, to find out that the entire world collectively dropped about a THOUSAND IQ points overnight! What did they do, spike the water?

What? Did the press' enamoration with Bubba Clinton's cigar choices trip a preprogrammed "DUUUUUHHHHHH" switch? I didn't think that the Clipper Chip was implantable.

I seem to recall that, while rather annoying, having c.30% of the population wandering around with the mouth-breathing IQ of ice in a liquid-nitrogen bath was an 'ignorable' problem -- suddenly, I wake up, and now 99-fracking-percent of the population has the combined brainpower of a single strand of dry pasta!

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED!?

[SET RANT MODE TO "OFF"]
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Old December 13th, 2006, 02:40 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulGTweed
In the second Classic BSG issue Starbuck and Boomer use the term dog. Shouldn't they have said Daggit. 'Top Daggit' or 'old wardaggit'.
You are absolutely correct.
Somebody wasn't doing their job.
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Old December 13th, 2006, 02:48 PM   #33
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WarMachine, your reaction is the same as mine has been all throughout this thing. I keep wanting to slap myself on the side of the head as if I just heard someone say in all sincerity, the world is flat.

These people actually think we'd complain too much about a continuation storyline not being done a certain way, and thus this is somehow a safer choice even though from a creativity standpoint it's idiotic.
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Old December 13th, 2006, 02:53 PM   #34
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The rationale for telling stories within the existing Galactica storyline is weak at best. Agreed.

As I've posted in other forums, EVERY writer that inherits a popular property (for example Spiderman, Superman, X-men, etc. etc. etc.) runs the risk of doing something that the "core fans" will dislike. And THIS decision is a perfect example of that.

But how many times have we publicly BEGGED for a continuation? How MANY different continuation efforts have we ALL supported? One would have to be practically deaf, dumb and blind (no offense to deaf dumb or blind people.. just an expression) to have missed all that folderol over the past what, 28 years?

Honestly? They've chosen a VERY difficult path. If they thought they'd have troubles with uberfans picking apart their continuation, what did they think would happen when they mistakenly challenge the continuity?

All in all, we're between a rock and a hard place as fans. If this series tanks, I will guarantee you that the property WILL be damaged in the eyes of future bean counters who are looking at the viability of a new TOS comic series. They don't look at what blunders were made. They look ONLY at how much money was generated. That's just the truth.

And honestly, it's only a few bucks once a month to support something that officially represents something I'm gonna be spending money on anyway... my hobby. So I'm going to continue to follow the series.

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Old December 13th, 2006, 03:03 PM   #35
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.....Makes you wonder whatever happened to "focus groups"......
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Old December 13th, 2006, 03:16 PM   #36
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It seems like that everytime someone actually gets an opportunity to do an "official" TOS project, they come into it with all the prejudices about TOS that were shaped and defined by TOS detractors. As a result, they literally come into it with not a clue for what it is that made the series endure in popularity with its fans for so many years. Even Richard Hatch is guilty of this, because the fact that he wrote stories that showed not the slightest regard for looking back at what actually happened in the original episodes before proceeding with a new story, or not hiring a ghostwriter who could go back and check, reveals that even a guy like Hatch thinks fans actually don't pay attention to what went on in the series and only remember TOS through a fuzzy lens.

Max Press comics series started out great (the first two miniseries they did are IMO the best "official" TOS project that's ever been done) but the problem is they didn't realize that they needed to slow down and be low-key for a bit in between "big" stories, and they started to take a kitchen-sink approach of fitting in everything big they could, and then their last story they insulted the intellgence of the fans by basically "rebooting" the entire TOS universe in which everything else that had happened would, if they had continued, been cast aside.

Scalf's comics just didn't last long enough, but they were starting off okay and if *that* had been the kind of thing Dynamite was doing I'd be enthusiastic.

Regarding the assertion that if we don't buy this, we'll hurt TOS in the future, I just can't be swayed by that argument any longer. Dynmate is NEVER going to budge on this point. They insultingly said we had to produce 10,000 signatures on a petition just to prove there's *any* kind of interest in continuation stories, which was an impossible thing to ask of a fanbase that has signed more petitions then it cares to remember and is fed up with having to prove itself to people who have nothing but contempt for the property. They are going to go this route for years on-end, because if issues sell, they'll call that vindication for their own efforts. Frankly, if this fails and the comic rights to TOS go back into a limbo status I think that's better than what we're getting now.
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Old December 13th, 2006, 03:23 PM   #37
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Have to agree with EP on this one......I'd rather chill out and read stuff done by fans who actually appreciate CBSG, than mess with trash - even pretty trash - done by people who couldn't care less.

All of these yo-yo's keep spewing-forth that they "care" about TOS -- well, if that's the case, SHOW IT.....
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Old December 13th, 2006, 03:23 PM   #38
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I hate focus groups.....

But that aside, properly speaking this comic series is NOT a "Continuation". These stories are set within the existing episodic timeline.

That's what's got Eric's knickers in a knot. They're telling stories set in between the episodes that were shown - and apparently doing a pretty poor job of maintaining continuity between their stories and the canon set by the episodes. They need a story editor who is very familiar with BSG canon - and they can't even get the nomenclature for the pets right....



Edit: I really must learn to type faster...

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Old December 13th, 2006, 03:33 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg
I hate focus groups.....

But that aside, properly speaking this comic series is NOT a "Continuation". These stories are set within the existing episodic timeline.

That's what's got Eric's knickers in a knot. They're telling stories set in between the episodes that were shown - and apparently doing a pretty poor job of maintaining continuity between their stories and the canon set by the episodes. They need a story editor who is very familiar with BSG canon - and they can't even get the nomenclature for the pets right....



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Yeah, but that IS the point: even if you are starting out be "retelling" Season 1, you can't 'crowbar' too many things in between cannon eps without eventually violating those eps.

And for the record, telling "filler" stories in between isn't bad, per se, but when you state point blank that there is a definate, predetermined end to your storyline (i.e., nothing after HoG), you are setting yourself up to fail. MJS got away with that in B5 because his was a fresh vision - Dynamite is already behind, because they are retreading old turf, and need to play catchup.

I think the main issue is a snotty attitude towards a loyal and dedicated fan-base that could be their best marketing weapon -- it's stupid and petty to treat the one group who can save your line that way, especially when with a little, tiny bit of effort, you can play "Knight on a White Horse" to that group, and they will become devoted supporters.

Hell, that's just good business.

I have, however, noticed attitudes like this in other venues...and I still don't get it: alienating your pre-existing fan base makes no sense.

Maybe I'm too smart, though.....
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Old December 13th, 2006, 03:40 PM   #40
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And notice how their upcoming miniseries is supposed to be this big knock-out battle with the Cylons, complete with baseships crashing into oceans. The problem is that you can't do a story like that before HOG because HOG's battle is summed up neatly in Tigh's "We haven't dared tangle with a basestar since we fled the Colonies" and Adama's "I'm tired of running." The only kind of flashback stories set during Season 1 you can plausibly do have to be low-key stories set inside the Fleet, and not epic battles, because if you have epic battles then the credibility of Galactica's *best* episodes like "Living Legend", "War Of The Gods" and "Hand Of God" is destroyed completely, and that's the last thing a TOS fan needs to see.
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Old December 13th, 2006, 03:54 PM   #41
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[QUOTE=Eric Paddon]It seems like that everytime someone actually gets an opportunity to do an "official" TOS project, they come into it with all the prejudices about TOS that were shaped and defined by TOS detractors. As a result, they literally come into it with not a clue for what it is that made the series endure in popularity with its fans for so many years. Even Richard Hatch is guilty of this, because the fact that he wrote stories that showed not the slightest regard for looking back at what actually happened in the original episodes before proceeding with a new story, or not hiring a ghostwriter who could go back and check, reveals that even a guy like Hatch thinks fans actually don't pay attention to what went on in the series and only remember TOS through a fuzzy lens.

Max Press comics series started out great (the first two miniseries they did are IMO the best "official" TOS project that's ever been done) but the problem is they didn't realize that they needed to slow down and be low-key for a bit in between "big" stories, and they started to take a kitchen-sink approach of fitting in everything big they could, and then their last story they insulted the intellgence of the fans by basically "rebooting" the entire TOS universe in which everything else that had happened would, if they had continued, been cast aside.

Scalf's comics just didn't last long enough, but they were starting off okay and if *that* had been the kind of thing Dynamite was doing I'd be enthusiastic./QUOTE]

I have never read the Richard Hatch novels (they are very hard to find), what liberties did he take or continuity did he alter or ignore.... just wondering if they are actually worth reading.

I liked the short lived Realm Press BSG series and thought Rob Liefeld's BSG started out interesting but sputtered out quickly.

In this day and age, I will usually only give a new comic title two issues to prove itself (unless I am a big fan of the writer). Comics are very expensive (the days of the 35cent or even dollar comic are long, long gone) and they are also a major production. It takes months for a comic to go from script to art to final printing, during which time the company, writer and editor have plenty of time to get their research right. Thus, the errors and character mistakes in the first two issues clearly indicate to me poor editing, lack of caring or understanding of the property, and over all shoddy craftsmanship. So no matter what the writer may say in forums about his intentions for the series, the proof is in the pages.

You would think an up and coming company like Dynamite (which has published some great stuff so far in OTHER titles) would take a cue from Dark Horse Comics on how to publish a sci-fi franchise tie-in series. DHC's Star Wars comics are some of the best comics out there period. Their three top sellers (KNIGHTS, DARK TIMES, LEGACY) don't even feature any of the key characters and one is a prequel (1000 years before) and the other is a sequel (100 years after)! Thus proving there is an audience for continuation type stories. And why, because the writers focus on good, strong stories and they clearly understand and love the universe that Lucas created.


Now I must admit, I have not read the Dynamite forums, so I wondering do we know for a FACT that the decision to do a non-continuation series was a Dynamite editorial decision or was it a decree from Universal???? Part of me hopes it was a Universal mandate, it might suggest they still have some untapped plans for TOS....
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Old December 13th, 2006, 04:04 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by bionicbob
Now I must admit, I have not read the Dynamite forums, so I wondering do we know for a FACT that the decision to do a non-continuation series was a Dynamite editorial decision or was it a decree from Universal???? Part of me hopes it was a Universal mandate, it might suggest they still have some untapped plans for TOS....
Bob,

There are several here who started asking "difficult" questions at the Dynamite board - EP and Martok, among others - about their concept ideas, well before the first ink-blob squirted, and were voiciferous in their displeasure.

At which point, others like myself popped over there, and read the dirty laundry ourselves...So yes, unfortunately, it is true. The only difference is that EP, et al, have kept after them long after I gave up bothering.....
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Old December 13th, 2006, 04:44 PM   #43
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The problems with Hatch's novels is that he was writing stories, or letting ghostwriters do stories, that didn't take into account *any* of the specific plot points from the original episodes. He has Zac as a SOL being saying to Apollo at one point that he and the advanced beings don't know where Earth is. In fact, at the end of WOTG, the SOL beings *gave* them the general direction on how to find Earth, and this was a point even G80 remembered in the "Return Of Starbuck" episode. Hatch also forgot all about Baltar's imprisonment and release, and also seemed to forget all about the whole Apollo-Sheba relationship and instead plunged into very distasteful plot turns of Apollo-Cassiopeia having relationships at this point. There just wasn't any sense of authenticity to the universe Hatch was creating in his novels. The names were the same, but when you don't ground your stories in a believable atmosphere that shows how well you're familiar with what went on before, you're insulting the intelligence of the fanbase. Trek novels don't do that, nor do Star Wars novels. I find it amazing that with Galactica, there seems to be this stubborn belief that we actually don't know about these kinds of things.

Oh, and if we needed any further hints about how the Dynamite people are ultimately more influenced by a certain other series, consider that their press release for the current miniseries touted the fact that you'd be seeing "toasters" in this one. The only people who use that term for Cylons aren't real fans of TOS.
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Old December 13th, 2006, 07:41 PM   #44
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Apollo and Cassie???? Really????

I wonder how many of the novel ideas would have made it into Hatch's Second Coming?

If I were a comic company with the licence to BSG here is what I would do:

1.) I would retell the core stories of season one (SAGA,LPOG,LL,WOG,HOG). The reason for this because there is a whole generation out there that no absolutely nothing about the original series and I think to start immediately as a continuation would negate new readers. Also, it would give the writer to build a better continuity between the episodes and rectify any errors that occurred in the series. (I always felt there was a Missing Chapter between SAGA and LPOG, why Cassie became a Healer, the evolution of Apollo's romance with Serina, the stabilization of the Fleet) Once that was done, I would continue to move forward with all new stories.

2.) I would probably start with a six page back up feature that would eventually spin-off into its own series, probably a series about Adama, Tigh and Cain as young Viper jocks, explore their relationship and Colonial Society before the holocaust and of course how Baltar became who he is and why he hates Adama and Cain so much.

With these two series, I would slowly build upon the franchise, doing supporting mini-series (maybe one about the Pegasus, another about the other squadrons on Galactica, or one from the Cylon perspective.... the possibilities are endless) and specials. As the fan base grows and sales warrent, launch a third or fourth ongoing series. Maybe a another prequel about the 13th Tribe (Battlestar Atlantis anyone?) or skip to the future and tell the tale about Galactica on Earth and the ramifications of that or even a solo series starring either a regular or all new character.

As I said before, I would use Dark Horse Comics as my guide on how to build a strong and viable comic franchise. The trick is finding the right Editor who shares our love and respect for the original series and has the talent to matching the right writer and artist with the material.

Anyway, for what it is worth, those are my two cubits!
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Old December 13th, 2006, 08:16 PM   #45
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Oh, I almost forgot, Hatch forgetting that Rigel was female (and this from a guy who claimed to have had a crush on Sarah Rush when he was doing the show!) and depicting Omega as an old man didn't help either.
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Old December 13th, 2006, 09:48 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarMachine
The only difference is that EP, et al, have kept after them long after I gave up bothering.....
Add me to the list of those who gave up with them.
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Old December 14th, 2006, 07:27 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionicbob
I liked the short lived Realm Press BSG series and thought Rob Liefeld's BSG started out interesting but sputtered out quickly.
Agreed! Had Maximum Press not done that ridiculous time travel story i wonder how long they might've lasted, cos they were doing fine up untill that point. And had Realm Press comics of BG had a much bigger distribution it too would've lasted longer!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionicbob
In this day and age, I will usually only give a new comic title two issues to prove itself (unless I am a big fan of the writer). Comics are very expensive (the days of the 35cent or even dollar comic are long, long gone) and they are also a major production. It takes months for a comic to go from script to art to final printing, during which time the company, writer and editor have plenty of time to get their research right. Thus, the errors and character mistakes in the first two issues clearly indicate to me poor editing, lack of caring or understanding of the property, and over all shoddy craftsmanship. So no matter what the writer may say in forums about his intentions for the series, the proof is in the pages.
Agreed again. Especially so. If they care so much to do a comic book on a subject that has many fans then, it must be well researched and respected since the prices of comics has indeed skyrocketed! Is it any wonder the industry and artform of comics on the whole is struggling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
Oh, I almost forgot, Hatch forgetting that Rigel was female (and this from a guy who claimed to have had a crush on Sarah Rush when he was doing the show!) and depicting Omega as an old man didn't help either.
Well as you say, it might be the supposed ghostwriters of the Hatch novels who got that fact about Rigel very wrong. But Omega being 70 plus in the books doesn't make him that old in colonial years considering colonials live up to "200" plus yahrens! Even the passage that describes Omega's age lets on that he isn't that old in colonial years by comparsion to 'Earth' human standards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionicbob
You would think an up and coming company like Dynamite (which has published some great stuff so far in OTHER titles) would take a cue from Dark Horse Comics on how to publish a sci-fi franchise tie-in series. DHC's Star Wars comics are some of the best comics out there period. Their three top sellers (KNIGHTS, DARK TIMES, LEGACY) don't even feature any of the key characters and one is a prequel (1000 years before) and the other is a sequel (100 years after)! Thus proving there is an audience for continuation type stories. And why, because the writers focus on good, strong stories and they clearly understand and love the universe that Lucas created.
Thats whats bugging me. No disrespect to Dynamite Entertainment but... Why did the copyrights to Battlestar Galactica both for the classic and new series end up at Dynamite when Dark Horse comics was surely a better venue for the copyrights to be done some justice. Everyone who knows anything about comics knows Dark Horse comics would be the most logical choice for them to wind up at!!!

Think Martok and EP should ask the Dynamite fellas over at their website to consider optioning the copyrights after their comic series doesn't work out to another group? We've been asking what happened to the comic rights for years until Dynamite announced they had them. When that gig ends, i want Universal to wise up and give them over to Dark Horse comics and quit fooling everybody around!

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Old December 14th, 2006, 07:39 AM   #48
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It might be simply that Dynamite was willing to put up major money that Dark Horse wasn't. Universal has always charged high licensing fees.

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Old December 14th, 2006, 07:52 AM   #49
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Long as BG's comic book rights aren't at Dark Horse comics, we're truly missing out then!

You could petition Universal to make the right decision but we all know how difficult that is?

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Old December 14th, 2006, 08:25 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
Oh, I almost forgot, Hatch forgetting that Rigel was female (and this from a guy who claimed to have had a crush on Sarah Rush when he was doing the show!) and depicting Omega as an old man didn't help either.

Ever since I heard about Richard Hatch's SECOND COMING trailer (which I have yet see, I hear it is quite impressive, and even if it isn't it would be nice to see the old guard back in uniform even for only a few minutes) I was always been very curious about his novel series.

I am quite surprised to hear about these changes and errors you mentioned. In articles and interviews and online clips from conventions I have seen, Hatch always comes across as very passionate about BSG. And yet, last night I watched SAGA again but this time with the commentary ON, and I was quite surprised by some of his comments. Hatch came across as not very knowledgeable of Galactica lore as you would suspect from some one who has written six or more novels about the subject. Me suspects a ghost writer....


Atleast, my second favorite HERO (right after LEE MAJORS) Bill Shatner is up front about his using writers for his KIRKverse novels. Also, Shanter may play the clown to the public, but he knows Trek better than most. His KIRK RETURNS novels are some of the best Trek books on the shelves....
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Old December 14th, 2006, 09:44 AM   #51
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Richard indeed is not very knowledgable about the details of the series. You can forgive actors for not knowing these things, because to them it's a grinding job, but writers are another matter entirely. If you want to *write* you have to do your homework, and if that means sit down and watch the episodes again to get the details straight, so be it. Novelists can spend many long hours doing research on something to get the authenticity of a scene right, and sitting down to watch past episodes in order shouldn't be that taxing to their creative efforts.

The chief problem the commentary reveals is that Richard and company for years have been seeing only the cut theatrical version of the pilot, whereas most of us, through reruns (even edited ones) were always seeing the original version unfurl properly with scenes like the Starbuck-Athena one.
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Old December 14th, 2006, 02:10 PM   #52
KJ
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Barring the warrior on the Atlantia on fire and Adama walking into the Council Of Twelve meeting, only the recent 2003 complete series DVD has most of the footage from the pilot episode intact. After the 1978 broadcast, i've heard from some folks over the years that even the 3 hour ABC cut wasn't the most complete version of the pilot on the subsequent reruns on satellite/cable!

You then had the TV version and the movie version of Battlestar Galactica, with blatant differences between both of them. Thats probably why fans over the years have used two VCR's to edit all the footage together to make the longest cut possible.

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Old December 14th, 2006, 02:33 PM   #53
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Two other slight variations of what's in the theatrical cut but not on ABC is that Adama refers to Baltar as "Count Baltar" when he asks Adar, "Did (Count) Baltar suggest we remain defenseless?" but the "Count" was snipped out on ABC. Also, after Apollo tells Starbuck his "You're going to be Red and Blue Squadron" plan, on ABC we just hear Starbuck say, "Oh, I get it" but in the theatrical cut it goes on for another two seconds for us to hear him then say, "No, I don't."
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"They hate us with every fiber of their being. We love....freedom, independence, the right to question. To them it is an alien way of living."-The non-myopic wisdom of Commander Adama, "Saga Of A Star World"

"How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin."-Ronald Reagan
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Old December 16th, 2006, 11:58 AM   #54
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Yeah the minor clip was almost like the editor put in the last few seconds of Dirk breaking character or something?



I also perfer the Count Baltar line, as it states his title, Baltar is hardly refered to as "Count" ever again after the pilot episode! As an original member of The Council Of Twelve in the pilot, Baltar must have been pretty powerful to represent his colony and have his own Battlestar (Pacifica?) surely the title of "Count" only adds to all of that making any sense.

The "Saga Of A Starworld" novel and 'The Tombs Of Kobol' Berkley book made Baltar out to be a powerful business man who although envious of Commander Adama, was powerful and respected somewhat in his own right!

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Old December 18th, 2006, 06:15 AM   #55
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Glen Larson will be credited in Dynamite's Classic Battlestar Galactica. I don't know if they will add his credit to the the Re-imagined BSG.
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