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Old March 19th, 2005, 11:22 AM   #31
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Fact is, I have not tried to rewrite your post.

I have corrected a factual error in yours.

My comments about the origin of the "fiddle" come from looking at other sites that make the dubious claim that slaves were allowed to bring their instruments with them as "carry-on" luggage during their voyage to North America.

CMT documentary or no, the claim that country music was "invented" by slaves is false.

Now, about anime, just because you or anyone else thinks that it would be a superior choice doesn't make it so, as suitability is in the eye of the beholder.

It is likely that in the future, dead celebrities will be mimiced to perfection in movies as well as vacuum cleaner ads.

Many people will always prefer the "organic" feel of filmed actors, just like analog LPs are claimed by many to have superior sound quality to sampled digital CDs.
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Old March 19th, 2005, 01:52 PM   #32
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Yes. Back to the anime discussion, since that is the topic of this thread.

Thanks for posting that Blue Gender link, Mustex; I hadn't seen that. I watched the trailer with some interest.

I also agree with Titon, that computer animation can work wonders. I think the SFX we're seeing are a testiment to that. I remember as I was watching LOTR forgetting that Gollum was animated (over the movements of an actual actor, yes, but animated nonetheless). And of course it's now giving physical model-based SFX a run for its money.

But Blue Gender is a cartoon, however sophisiticated it might be. There is no mistaking it for anything but a cartoon. Its roots are in hand-drawn animation - Speed Racer and Mickey Mouse - and those roots are plainly evident.

Give us CGI of the level of Gollum, though, where you can't be entirely sure if it's a live actor or an animated one, coupled with Zoic-level SFX, and I'll support an anime BSG whole-heartedly. But until we reach that level of sophistication, I do not believe anime is an appropriate medium.

(FWIW, I didn't particularly like the ST animated show, either.)

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Old March 19th, 2005, 04:03 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titon
Take a close look at the Skybase launch tube landing sections Peter. The pads where the vehicles come up from inside.

I built that little sucker.

Wow. Way cool!

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Old March 19th, 2005, 04:12 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg
Give us CGI of the level of Gollum, though, where you can't be entirely sure if it's a live actor or an animated one, coupled with Zoic-level SFX, and I'll support an anime BSG whole-heartedly. But until we reach that level of sophistication, I do not believe anime is an appropriate medium.
After seeing a second batch of Last Exile episodes today, I'd have to disagree with my esteemed colleague.

It's not about sophistication, it's about the story mainly. Watching Last Exile made me think back too the original version of Star Wars and BSG, I got the same buzz from it. The combination of traditional cell animation, computer generated cell animation and traditional CG model vehicles and a cracking story and interesting characters can really draw you into what's on screen.

Just lately I've been seeing a lot of anime that is way beyond anything you see in live action SF Ė and comedy/romance strangely enough.

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Old March 19th, 2005, 05:55 PM   #35
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Well, I don't know - I've never been a huge fan of cartoons pretending to be live action, although I remember the original Johnny Quest and Speed Racer half-hours fondly. In my adult years I've not spent much time watching the various forms of animation.

Give me Loony Tunes any day of the week.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not shutting the door on any quality BSG production, but I believe the correct venue to bring back Battlestar Galactica is the big screen - live action. Not a cartoon.

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Old March 19th, 2005, 06:02 PM   #36
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Either version of BSG, and the ST;TAS shows, when they had problems, the problems were with the writing.

ST:TAS might have been a bitter pill, even if the writing were improved, and the voice recording was not done in a rush in public restrooms, chasing Shat down.

And animated BSG could be done well. But for those that are intent on "original cast" it would leave a void.
And that is the thing, different people are in to the show for different reasons.
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Old March 19th, 2005, 07:15 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter noble
After seeing a second batch of Last Exile episodes today, I'd have to disagree with my esteemed colleague.

It's not about sophistication, it's about the story mainly. Watching Last Exile made me think back too the original version of Star Wars and BSG, I got the same buzz from it. The combination of traditional cell animation, computer generated cell animation and traditional CG model vehicles and a cracking story and interesting characters can really draw you into what's on screen.

Just lately I've been seeing a lot of anime that is way beyond anything you see in live action SF Ė and comedy/romance strangely enough.
Peter -

I would agree wholeheartedly with you on that one. Last Exile is one of the most sophisticated anime shows that I've ever seen. The combination of 2D and 3D CGI VFX along with the traditional Anime-style characters is nothing short of breathtaking. The first 5 episodes give me a thrill no matter how many times I've seen them.

What you say about story content is also true. The complex character relationships in the storylines for both Last Exile and RahXephon make watching them completly worthwhile. Both shows are so satisfying on a story level and character development, that 3D CGI characters aren't really necessary

While what John says about Gollum is quite true, the level of CGI that is evident in today's filmmaking is proof that you can have a complete CGI character, there is one reminder - there was an actor on set for those scenes as I recall, just replaced with a digital one. I remember watching the Final Fantasy film and being amazed, but I was also staggered to find out that it took 5 years to complete the film due to it's complex nature.

I would be happy with a BSG feature film along the lines of Last Exile - the 2D & 3D CGI modeling was very impressive and less expensive than a full CGI film.

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Old March 20th, 2005, 12:56 AM   #38
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While the jury may be still out on Aname as a vehicle for a BSG continuation. CG itself is advancing rapidly in quality and falling in cost. There will ocme a day, in the not too distant future when the indivudual mill be able to rpoduce his/her own show.

I know this may sound far fetched today, but looking back at where we started from and how far we've come in such a short period of time. The direction is clear, the line between computer generated and real will vanish.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 03:24 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nextceo
If the anime was similar to Final Fantasy or Appleseed, maybe, otherwise I don't think an anime version would fly well...
I'm just popping in here to add one small bit of info. There is a TON of anime done in a style similiar to FF and Appleseed. Most usually aren't as expensive, but there are hundreds of animes like that over the years. But I learned as an animation student most americans only see the kiddie versions like Dragonball, cause most americans believe animation is for kids. So the serious drama styled animes don't air on tv so most people don't get exposed to the bulk of anime.

There already are Battlestar Galactica styled animes out there. They just don't air here.

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Old March 20th, 2005, 05:12 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Marley
Many people will always prefer the "organic" feel of filmed actors, just like analog LPs are claimed by many to have superior sound quality to sampled digital CDs.
Blue Gender feels 100% organic. Throughout the entire twenty-something episode run, I only caught one case of a character's eyes growing slightly larger than they should.

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Old March 20th, 2005, 05:18 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg
Yes. Back to the anime discussion, since that is the topic of this thread.

Thanks for posting that Blue Gender link, Mustex; I hadn't seen that. I watched the trailer with some interest.

I also agree with Titon, that computer animation can work wonders. I think the SFX we're seeing are a testiment to that. I remember as I was watching LOTR forgetting that Gollum was animated (over the movements of an actual actor, yes, but animated nonetheless). And of course it's now giving physical model-based SFX a run for its money.

But Blue Gender is a cartoon, however sophisiticated it might be. There is no mistaking it for anything but a cartoon. Its roots are in hand-drawn animation - Speed Racer and Mickey Mouse - and those roots are plainly evident.

Give us CGI of the level of Gollum, though, where you can't be entirely sure if it's a live actor or an animated one, coupled with Zoic-level SFX, and I'll support an anime BSG whole-heartedly. But until we reach that level of sophistication, I do not believe anime is an appropriate medium.

(FWIW, I didn't particularly like the ST animated show, either.)

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As for CGI, there's another option involving that. Most purely CGI animation looks cheesier than hand-drawn (or at least I think so, the exception is maybe Shrek and other major motion pictures, but weekly series like Max Steel and Action Man look dumb and choppy), however the Japanese starting using CGI to do spaceships and mechas, while still doing characters and backgrouds by hand. For a while this led to a sharp contrast that was annoying (see Blue Submarine No. 6), but new techniques were created for Zoids, which allowed the two to be integrated flawlessly.

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Old March 20th, 2005, 05:20 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Marley
Either version of BSG, and the ST;TAS shows, when they had problems, the problems were with the writing.

ST:TAS might have been a bitter pill, even if the writing were improved, and the voice recording was not done in a rush in public restrooms, chasing Shat down.

And animated BSG could be done well. But for those that are intent on "original cast" it would leave a void.
And that is the thing, different people are in to the show for different reasons.
Hey, I just thought of something. If all the living actors returned, would anyone mind recasting Adama and Baltar?

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Old March 20th, 2005, 05:26 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomas7g
I'm just popping in here to add one small bit of info. There is a TON of anime done in a style similiar to FF and Appleseed. Most usually aren't as expensive, but there are hundreds of animes like that over the years. But I learned as an animation student most americans only see the kiddie versions like Dragonball, cause most americans believe animation is for kids. So the serious drama styled animes don't air on tv so most people don't get exposed to the bulk of anime.
If Blue Gender was kiddie, then I'm scared of what those sickos have thought up.

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Old March 21st, 2005, 04:22 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cranky1c
Sorry, still prefer people.
cranky, I agree with this. I prefer real people over anime or cartoons! You connect better to the story!
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Old March 21st, 2005, 04:53 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by bsg1fan1975
cranky, I agree with this. I prefer real people over anime or cartoons! You connect better to the story!
Actually, with adult anime I find you often connect better. And could we please not use the word "cartoon" in this thread, it comes with too-many preconcieved notions.

Unfortunately, that's all Americans seem to want to watch anime for. So far the gross of all theatrically released anime movies in the US is $195 million, and over half of it comes from the first two Pokemon movies!
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Old March 23rd, 2005, 09:54 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustex
Actually, with adult anime I find you often connect better. And could we please not use the word "cartoon" in this thread, it comes with too-many preconcieved notions.

Unfortunately, that's all Americans seem to want to watch anime for. So far the gross of all theatrically released anime movies in the US is $195 million, and over half of it comes from the first two Pokemon movies!
Sorry but I still prefer to see people over any drawn form, cartoon or anime! You get more reaction out of watching live people then you do by listening to something or see some drawing moving their mouths to someone else's voice!
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Old March 23rd, 2005, 12:08 PM   #47
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Ok... time to chime in with my opinion on an anime version.

I see the talk about a CGI Continuation, with various levels of "realistic CGI" mentioned, Gollum of Lord Of The Rings being at the forefront.

Did anyone posting in this thread watch the special features on the DVD's on how Gollum's movements were done?

They had a live person actor do the moves, etc and they tracked them, creating the motions for the CGI character. THis was a good choice/way of doing it for Gollum, because Gollum does not look human.

There were also lots and lots of background CGI characters. This also was good, as they were sen at a distance and were used to expound on the sizes of the armies.

*BUT* when it comes to doing this for BG, I say no way.

As stated before, Gollum did not look human, so CGI worked for him.

But the actors in BG *are* human, and to make them look as realistic as possible, you'd have to motion capture an actor for the CGI characters movement. In other words, still hire a live person to do the movements. Now... who better to do the movements of Apollo, than Richard Hatch? Who better to do the movements of Starbuck than Dirk? No one knows the characters better than they do.

So... if you hire them for the movements for motion capture, why not just have them play the role in the first place? Thus you're back to live action.

Film all of the live actors on green screens, then intergrate them into CGI backgrounds.

CGI backgrounds/buildings, etc *can* look realistic enough, so real sets and locations wouldn't really need to be done.

But there'd never be any way the correct motion capture for the actors could be done unless the actors themselves did it. So if they are hired to do it, then go ahead and let them o their roles in live person.

preciseley! If my memory also serves me correct didn't they have to do that with Jabba on the Star Wars movies before he was done by CGI in the special editions?
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Old March 23rd, 2005, 12:08 PM   #48
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Hereís the problem. People suggest animated alternatives because that gives you the one thing that using the real actors canít. You can make a series that deals with all of the original characters in the original setting. To go with Hatch as Apollo and so on, you have to concede the need to cast a younger generation of actors as well as including some recognizable stars to draw audiences (maybe as Baltar or Cain). With an animated version you donít have to do any of that. You can have every single one of the surviving original cast come back to do the voices for their animated alternatives. Plus the story can pick up anywhere. You arenít forced to set it 25 years later and be burdened with a mountain of exposition to catch the audience back up.

An animated version frees you from all of the restrictions that having to cast semi-retired actors with virtually no name recognition create. For voice over work, they donít need to be recognizable or in shape or even still acting.

I understand, that in the best-case scenario, we would get the continuation with the real actors in the flesh, but look at it as a business decision. If youíre the head of a major studio and you are given these two options, which one has less risk and more potential return? A big expensive science fiction movie where in half of the cast are former TV stars from the 70s and 80s, or an animated movie free to explore to the Galactica universe in any way at anytime without requiring that the audience have seen the original show?
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Old March 23rd, 2005, 12:10 PM   #49
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sorry but anime is still not the way to go with a TOS continuation!
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Old March 23rd, 2005, 02:33 PM   #50
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The real problem with anime from my standpoint (as applied to TOS, so please let's not hear anyone call this a slam on anime in general) is that in light of all else that has happened it would just reek of being given a stale leftover from a banquet table we spent years preparing and then got locked out of at the last minute.

To me, seeing any kind of animated version is just seeing a comic book with voices and comic books fall into the "been there, done that" category of TOS, as we have had three comic book versions, and I have never confused any of them with something that I would consider to be a definitive satisfying of the desire to see TOS continued.
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Old March 23rd, 2005, 05:34 PM   #51
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So true! I really don't understand this assumption that desire for a TOS continuation requires a belief that the principal TOS cast would have to be our leads in such a project. That's never been how I understood it, it was simply a desire to continue the storyline of this universe however many yahrens later it happens to be with enough TOS cast members in place to provide continuity and to clear up some loose ends from the past (Apollo and Sheba; Starbuck and Cassie) but to let a new group take center stage if that's what the best solutiuon is now that so many years have past.

In that respect, we were always willing to adjust to the realities of what existed the more years we became removed from TOS.
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Old March 23rd, 2005, 05:42 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsg1fan1975
sorry but anime is still not the way to go with a TOS continuation!

You're still not getting it. Anime is the way to go with everything. Hopefully live-action is just a passing fad we won't have to put up with much longer, and the next hundred years with belong to anime (mostly hand-drawn, with CGI augments).

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Old March 23rd, 2005, 05:44 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
The real problem with anime from my standpoint (as applied to TOS, so please let's not hear anyone call this a slam on anime in general) is that in light of all else that has happened it would just reek of being given a stale leftover from a banquet table we spent years preparing and then got locked out of at the last minute.

To me, seeing any kind of animated version is just seeing a comic book with voices and comic books fall into the "been there, done that" category of TOS, as we have had three comic book versions, and I have never confused any of them with something that I would consider to be a definitive satisfying of the desire to see TOS continued.
What if they did the rest of TNS anime too? That way the TOS fans would be equals to the TNS fans, Universal could cut costs, and I'd live the rest of my life in absolute bliss.
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Old March 23rd, 2005, 05:44 PM   #54
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Oh yes, let's just have a world where there is only one art form of visual entertainment to be foisted down on all of the world's population because one person happens to think that's the only appropriate form of visual entertainment there should be and he insists there be no diversity whatsoever and choice for people.
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Old March 23rd, 2005, 05:47 PM   #55
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Oh yes, let's just have a world where there is only one art form of visual entertainment to be foisted down on all of the world's population because one person happens to think that's the only appropriate form of visual entertainment there should be and he insists there be no diversity whatsoever and choice for people.
EXACTLY!

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Old March 23rd, 2005, 06:12 PM   #56
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Mustex, it amuses me to no end that you'd like to hoist yourself on your own petard.
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Old March 23rd, 2005, 06:16 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
Mustex, it amuses me to no end that you'd like to hoist yourself on your own petard.
I frequently joke about taking over the world. Keep in mind that everything I say is half-serious (I do think anime deserves more respect than it gets, and that it's a perfectly legitimate medium for anything, but I don't want to see live-action completely vanish).
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Old March 27th, 2005, 08:50 AM   #58
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Quote:
Without actors you have nothing. Look at Nu Galactica. If you didn't have Callis and Hogan the show would be a joke. These two make it worth watching IMHO. Anime and cartoons are great when the stunts would be impossible for a live actor to do and CGI doesn't cut the mustard.
If you mean the new BSG...for me and a lot of reviewers anyway....Boomer is a huge
reason to watch the show.....especially in the finale this year.......Woah......

Bravo Grace Park!!!!


Speaking of Anime...I think who ever designed the "look" of the new BSG, probably
watched Macross Plus....... From the helments to the coat and tie look of the folks
in New Eden. Caprica at least has the "feeling" of the Macross Anime.


Picture of the Helment design:

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Old March 27th, 2005, 09:12 AM   #59
BST
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Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
So true! I really don't understand this assumption that desire for a TOS continuation requires a belief that the principal TOS cast would have to be our leads in such a project. That's never been how I understood it, it was simply a desire to continue the storyline of this universe however many yahrens later it happens to be with enough TOS cast members in place to provide continuity and to clear up some loose ends from the past (Apollo and Sheba; Starbuck and Cassie) but to let a new group take center stage if that's what the best solutiuon is now that so many years have past.

In that respect, we were always willing to adjust to the realities of what existed the more years we became removed from TOS.

This is unfortunately one of the largest misconceptions about the wants and desires of the TOS folks. While I, personally, would love to see as many as possible *reprise* their roles, by no means do I want to see a *return to the '70's*. I have always looked at a possible continuation as one with a "next generation" feel to it. The original principals would still be there, if interested, and would be handing off to the next generation of warriors, etc.

The timeline would be continued (the "what happened to them" would be revealed) and, at the same time, new characters and adventures would be created. All would be well with the universe.

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Your sweet and weary head
The night is falling
You have come to journey's end
Sleep now
And dream of the ones who came before
They are calling
From across the distant shore .


Children are a message that we send
to a time that we will never see.
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Old March 27th, 2005, 09:11 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by BST
This is unfortunately one of the largest misconceptions about the wants and desires of the TOS folks. While I, personally, would love to see as many as possible *reprise* their roles, by no means do I want to see a *return to the '70's*. I have always looked at a possible continuation as one with a "next generation" feel to it. The original principals would still be there, if interested, and would be handing off to the next generation of warriors, etc.
My point is that with a live action continuation, this is what you would have to do. There is no other alternative other than mixing the old characters with new ones. Where as, with an animated version that restriction is lifted. If the producers wanted to, they could pick the story up anywhere since the age of the actors and the time that has passed in the real world would not affect it.

An animated version means that the story doesn't have to be 25 years laters and still no earth. We could instead pick up 5 minutes after Starbuck's gun bumps that button. I'm suggesting that that freedom is what makes the idea of an animated version so popular.
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