More Lucas Tamperings

[Eric Paddon]

Well, here's the first indicator of how many more tamperings we're going to see to the SW trilogy on DVD, courtesy of today's NY Post.

* Hayden Christensen is digitally inserted into the celebratory final scene of "Return of the Jedi," alongside a ghost-like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda


I KNEW this was going to happen! And here's just one more reason for me to not buy these DVDs until Lucas gets it through his head that there are those of us who want the originals.

My old Laser Discs are becoming more and more a precious commodity for me.

[julix]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

Well, here's the first indicator of how many more tamperings we're going to see to the SW trilogy on DVD, courtesy of today's NY Post.

* Hayden Christensen is digitally inserted into the celebratory final scene of "Return of the Jedi," alongside a ghost-like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda


I KNEW this was going to happen! And here's just one more reason for me to not buy these DVDs until Lucas gets it through his head that there are those of us who want the originals.

My old Laser Discs are becoming more and more a precious commodity for me.

Eric....I guess I don't understand how you feel. Can you elborate? From how I see it Lucas it just trying to provide continuity. He has gone in and added a few enhanements for that very reason. Did you not like Hayden? Well, I was just wondering because it never crossed my mind to be upset about it so just trying to understand.

[Eric Paddon]

I object to the kind of tamperings Lucas is doing to films and destroying them as products of the time they were made in, especially when he does not give us the option of seeing the original versions. The SW trilogy were films made in the context of the late 1970s and early 1980s, and to me should remain a product of the era they were made in, and to me inserting an actor who was all of a few years old at the time ROTJ was made into that film (what next I wonder, is Alec Guinness going to be digitially replaced by MacGregor in all of those ESB and ROTJ scenes?) to me destroys the film.

I have never objected to restoring scenes to a movie shot *at the time of production* into a new cut of a film, but going back to do digital magic to make the film a product of today's time, which it is not, is something I regard as bad as colorizing old B/W films to make them look more modern. If Lucas were at least not so bullheaded about suppressing the original cuts of the films, then maybe this could be accepted more readily by those like me, but not under these circumstances.

[Charybdis]

I agree Eric. Those films, while not perfect, are products of the age in which they were made. Make the changes, do all you want to them, BUT at least offer the originals as they were released to theatres as well on DVD...

As you, I am now also coveting my VHS collection which I bought in 1995 which was the last release of the original versions. It even says so on the box, so George has been putting his plan into action for quite a while now...

[Archangel]

Can it really be considered tampering If he's the guy that created Star Wars in the first place?

At least no one else 're-imagined' it.

[Charybdis]

Yes, I do believe you can "tamper" with your own creation. Once it's done, it's done. Anything else done to it later is tampering...

And Eric, you'll also love the fact that I have also heard that they are considering replacing Sebastian Shaw's face when Luke unmasks him aboard the Death Star in Return of the Jedi, thereby totally removing Shaw from the film...

[Archangel]

I wasn't arguing, I was opening another topic for discussion

Which could possibly give Shaw a good excuse to go after Lucas. Since, with no more editions of the original version coming out, it effectively removes his credit.

[Charybdis]

Unfortunately, Sebastian Shaw will not be able to claim credit once he is totally removed from Return of the Jedi: he died several years ago!!

[Archangel]

and his estate???

[Ian_W359]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

Well, here's the first indicator of how many more tamperings we're going to see to the SW trilogy on DVD, courtesy of today's NY Post.

* Hayden Christensen is digitally inserted into the celebratory final scene of "Return of the Jedi," alongside a ghost-like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda


I KNEW this was going to happen! And here's just one more reason for me to not buy these DVDs until Lucas gets it through his head that there are those of us who want the originals.

My old Laser Discs are becoming more and more a precious commodity for me.

What's the point of inserting Hayden? apart from making a mockery of that original segment of the film.....

It could be that Lucas got the idea to use the 'pre-darkside' Anakin as his ghost? Rather than use Sebastian Shaw, who represents the 'post-darkside'..... (Just a theory, not an opinion).

Anyway, do you think it's worth getting one of the old VHS Star Wars sets, second hand?

Ian W359

[Eric Paddon]

If you don't have a Laser Disc player, then I would at least recommend getting letterboxed VHS tapes of the original cuts which were released.

[cranky1c]

I tend to agree with Eric on this one. It isn't so much Lucas's desire to make the SW movies as seamless as possible, but his tampering with the films in a way that don't add, and arguably subtract from, the source material. Does removing Mr. Shaw and repacing him with Mr. Christiansen really add to ROTJ? There is also something to be said for the fact that it was the unaltered original works that garnered such praise in the first place. One can gild the lilley too much. It's great marketting though, because you know there are fans who will buy a new version of the films just to have the new 2 seconds of footage. As for me, I'm holding on to my VHS's.....

[Darth Marley]

It is Lucas' film to change.
I do not have any problem with the changes, as long as he doesn't go Spielburg/E.T. on us.
I also wish that the original versions were made available, with all the cut footage.

[Sci-Fi]

Are any Original Star Wars Trilogy Laser Discs still available "new"? Or are there only the 1997 "Special Edition" laser disc releases available for sale (new and used). Not to mention finding a good laser disc player. At least in the states, you would be lucky to find a used copy of the boxed Star Wars Trilogy or a good copy of Star Wars: ANH (original films). My boxed set is not for sale...lol.

Admittingly, I still own and pay outrageous prices for movies and shows on laser discs that are not available on DVD. For those unfamiliar with laser discs, you can make your own excellent VHS copies, unlike dvd with their protection schemes, and play/wear the tapes out instead. Even if you have to flip over the disc to continue the movie, you can seamlessly continue recording/edit the film on tape. But with high prices, limited releases, and shrinking titles available, one would need to make a hard decision whether to make the laser disc and player purchase.

Just FYI: Star Trek, all 63 episodes including episode 1, runs about $850.00 USD new.

A few weeks ago, I read that Lucas was upset because the DVD release of Three Stooges shorts was going to be colorized. He felt that they were products of their time and should not be altered so that future generations can enjoy the original work. Whaaaat!? George, isn't this what legions of Star Wars fans have been saying about you and the original trilogy? Personally, I think that if you want to futz around with your work by adding extra bells and whistles, that's fine. I don't think it improves the movies but if it is how you find your jollies, cool. But please make the original cuts of the trilogy available as well. I will not be buying the Star Wars DVD set. Other than a bonus disc with a two hour documentary, this is a bare bones release. Based on Lucas's track record, you can be sure that a super deluxe release of the Star Wars movies will be on the way somewhere down the line. The same goes for the Indiana Jones movies.

[Charybdis]

The fact is, George Lucas wants his cake and wants to eat it too... since the beginning, he has always played a two-faced flip-flopper.

He says his films pay homage to the great directors of years past. He says Star Wars itself is based upon Kurasawa's "Hidden Fortress." He says that doing that flatters the original filmmaker.

Then, at his direction, he sues Universal and Larson right away for copyright infringement over Battlestar Galactica!!!!

He gets mad at colorizing the Three Stooges and then goes ahead and changes all his movies with a drop of the hat!!!!

I admit, I want all the different versions, but the fact is that the originals should be made available. I think most of us don't mind him tinkering around with his movies, but make the originals availiable too!!!

[shiningstar]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

Well, here's the first indicator of how many more tamperings we're going to see to the SW trilogy on DVD, courtesy of today's NY Post.

* Hayden Christensen is digitally inserted into the celebratory final scene of "Return of the Jedi," alongside a ghost-like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda


I KNEW this was going to happen! And here's just one more reason for me to not buy these DVDs until Lucas gets it through his head that there are those of us who want the originals.

My old Laser Discs are becoming more and more a precious commodity for me.

I agree with you Eric 100%

[Raymar3d]

I think it's both a good and a bad thing to have the power to re-edit something. For instance, if something needs restoration due to deterioration, or had an obvious technical flaw, such as the white colored blade Vader carried in the last scene while Luke and Company were escaping the Death Star, or the floating dark spot on the Emperor's hood in the Death Star throne room where they tried to paint over some flaw. Or cutting out 2 frames of film where you see the zipper on an EWOK suit.... LOL. I don't mind them fixing that stuff. I didn't even mind them adding some (repeat SOME) of the scene extensions in the films, such as a digital version of the Millenium Falcon launching from the docking bay 94. Jabba being added to Star Wars was both cool and stupid. Cool in concept, stupid in execution. He didn't look good. The later digital Jabba was much better. Fix that, okay, no big deal.
Making Greedo fire first, bad.
Changing Vader's dialogue, from "Bring my shuttle," all full of anger, to "Inform my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival" and making him all happy was so castrating to the character too.
Replacing Sebastian Shaw or Alec Guinness, horrible. On the other hand, adding them to it after Luke has seen them in their older forms, just so they can effectively say farewell and show him what they once looked like, might not be so awful. I could easily live without it. Prefer not to have it.

I do think that an artist should be able to revise their work up to the point they release it.

I have a film done in 1987 that I'm restoring, redoing FX and adding scenes to right now. But, I never released it to the public, so it's been in production for 17 years technically. By the time people are paying to see a film, it's really too late in my opinion to be redoing it.

Ken

"A director who knows what to edit, and what not to edit, will be successful." Tsun Tsu (paraphrased).

[shiningstar]

Originally Posted by Raymar3d

I think it's both a good and a bad thing to have the power to re-edit something. For instance, if something needs restoration due to deterioration, or had an obvious technical flaw, such as the white colored blade Vader carried in the last scene while Luke and Company were escaping the Death Star, or the floating dark spot on the Emperor's hood in the Death Star throne room where they tried to paint over some flaw. Or cutting out 2 frames of film where you see the zipper on an EWOK suit.... LOL. I don't mind them fixing that stuff. I didn't even mind them adding some (repeat SOME) of the scene extensions in the films, such as a digital version of the Millenium Falcon launching from the docking bay 94. Jabba being added to Star Wars was both cool and stupid. Cool in concept, stupid in execution. He didn't look good. The later digital Jabba was much better. Fix that, okay, no big deal.
Making Greedo fire first, bad.
Changing Vader's dialogue, from "Bring my shuttle," all full of anger, to "Inform my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival" and making him all happy was so castrating to the character too.
Replacing Sebastian Shaw or Alec Guinness, horrible. On the other hand, adding them to it after Luke has seen them in their older forms, just so they can effectively say farewell and show him what they once looked like, might not be so awful. I could easily live without it. Prefer not to have it.

I do think that an artist should be able to revise their work up to the point they release it.

I have a film done in 1987 that I'm restoring, redoing FX and adding scenes to right now. But, I never released it to the public, so it's been in production for 17 years technically. By the time people are paying to see a film, it's really too late in my opinion to be redoing it.

Ken

"A director who knows what to edit, and what not to edit, will be successful." Tsun Tsu (paraphrased).

That's my point too. I think it's a disgrace that they're replacing the ORIGINAL
Darth Vader in the return of the Jedi. I mean the 'new/predarth' is a practically
a child. he'll look like Luke's BROTHER instead of his Father when he should
look like Luke's father. I know lucas wants to make a BUCK but that's
sheer nonsense!

[cranky1c]

Their Lucas's films to change, absolutely.

Artists have the right to revise their creations, fine. Sure.

Hayden Christensen looks like he's 16 years old standing next to Yoda and Ben! He looks younger than his "son" Luke, with that gelled/grunge long hair that you would never see in a movie older than 1990. Mr. Shaw looked like a graceful contemporary of his peers in this final scene. Darth Vader, the fulcrum of six movies, has been reduced to looking like a member of Nirvanna. Is this an improvement?

[martok2112]

I must say that is the one thing that will probably turn me off about the DVD's. Hayden Christenson should NOT appear in the final sequence of ROTJ.

It is interesting to note that Lucas will release both the "original" and "modified" versions of his first film "THX-1138", yet he won't give Star Wars the same courtesy.

Sigh.

Well...I will get the DVD's as I am fired up to see some of the other changes proposed, but the ending of ROTJ was just fine in the special editions...it need not be tampered with further.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[BST]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

I KNEW this was going to happen! And here's just one more reason for me to not buy these DVDs until Lucas gets it through his head that there are those of us who want the originals.

Agreed, Eric. This 'enhancement' is contemptible. The 'original version' was just that, the ORIGINAL. The DVD version makes a mockery of the original, instead of being what it should -- a crisper, more durable medium. Regardless if Lucas included any extras, the disc alone would be worth the investment due to its durability. Now, it's not even worth that.

Bad move, George!

Originally Posted by Raymar3d

I do think that an artist should be able to revise their work up to the point they release it.

Absolutely, 100% agreed! After that, it's a done deal.

[martok2112]

Well...I can agree with that notion to a point.

Consider Star Trek The Motion Picture. When it finally got released on DVD, it was done so with many considerable enhancements...upgraded visual effects. Just like the original Star Wars, ST:TMP was a rushed and incomplete product. Robert Wise (director) got the blessing of Paramount to go in and basically "finish" the movie.

In many respects, what we saw in '77 with Star Wars was an incomplete product.

However, there are still aspects of Lucas' "enhancement" of the original trilogy that I cannot defend.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[thomas7g]

I got to admit... I didn't like seeing Greedo fire first. And some changes are bad. But at the same time, I kinda can see things from Lucas's side of it.

Say you create a piece of art. But as time goes on, your skills improve and you get ideas you wish you had when you made the thing. But now its in the public. And something that represents you is seen over and over. you make a painting of a pretty girl, and the heads too big. Everyone sees it over and over. They all know her proportions are off. And you see countless people say over and over and point out her head is too big. Over and over for year after year. People keep coming out of the woodwork and tell you that yeah, you drew the head too big.

Wouldn't you want the ability to fix it and make it as good as your skills are today?

Say you write a story. It becomes a hit. Does that mean you as the writer lose your right to change it just because people like it? Its your story. You thought up all these characters. You devoted a large chunk of your life into making it.

And now the public says "Its mine now. you can't touch it."

...

I'm just pointing out how Lucas might see it.

[The 14th Colony]

I agree with you, Thomas. I like some of the changes that GL did for the Special Editions and certain things I did not like, all of which have been semi-corrected for the DVD. Like Luke screaming as he fell through the Cloud City tube. That was just wrong. A Jedi who chose his own death would not scream like a fraidy cat. I didn't mind the concept of Greedo shooting first, but the execution of the scene change was poorly done. I liked the Jabba scene in ANH, but the Jabba was poorly done. Ect, ect. I'm glad those things have been fixed. The emperor in the original TESB was so poorly done that not fixing that for the SE was in itself poorly done. I'm so glad that has been fixed with Ian McDiarmid properly performing his character in that scene.

Now, as for any additions that the purists might be unhappy about, I've seen the films of the original trilogy hundreds of times as a fan for 27 years, and I don't have a problem with any new scenes being added in (either filmed at the time or filmed now) if they add to the story, give more depth to the story, or simply add more fun to the story. I wish GL had included the Biggs and Luke scene from the Toshe station that was filmed and cut from ANH. That would add to Luke's character and make the story stronger (Lucas said he cut the scene because it slowed the pace. Bah! What does he know? ), as well as more fun. Star Wars was always fun, but after 27 years of the same Star Wars, I'd like to see some new fun added (or old fun, in the case of the Toshe station scene).

I'd like to see the Imperial Senate in ANH arguing about the Rebel Alliance's cause, and see Palpatine actually disband the Senate and declare that very soon none of them would dare to argue against him again. But that wasn't filmed for the DVD. I so wish it was.

I'd like to see Bail Organa confront Palpatine about the dissappearance of his daughter, and Palpatine tell him that the ship was destroyed by an asteroid storm as Vader said and order him to go back to Alderaan. But that wasn't filmed for the DVD. I so wish it was.

I'd like to see Bail Organa on Alderaan look up to see the Death Star approaching his world, and the people look up in fright, just before the planet is destroyed. But that wasn't filmed for the DVD. I so wish it was.

None of my suggestions/wishes are required to make the story work because it worked fine for 27 years. However, it would be new and fresh and would add some new excitement to an old story. Some fans, however, are dead set against new scenes filmed and inserted in the movies. I wonder, would they feel any differantly if those new scenes had been filmed in 1976 but were left out of the finished film, and were just now being put back in?

[Charybdis]

I still think that the original version of the films should be left unchanged and made available. However, I think George Lucas can change them all he wants and make those available as well...the more the merrier.

Also, I do believe that there will be a scene in A New Hope that has Palpatine disbanding the senate...

[julix]

Tom and 14th,
I agree with you both on all your points.......
I never even thought about being upset at GL or Lucas the Hutt as hubby and I call him. Then hubby brought up the point about BG and Star Wars and of course I said the difference is, it is Lucas's work and his story and he can do with it what he wants...where as BG is a whole different story. When someone else goes in and reimagines it....etc, etc, to which he agreed and admitted I am right as usual tee hee(not really-but true). So it is apparent that Lucas missed the marketing ploy of doing it both ways which is hard to believe...but I can only guess that like me he had no idea anyone would be upset.

[Archangel]

He probably assumed that everyone would like the changes

[julix]

Originally Posted by Archangel

He probably assumed that everyone would like the changes

Could be he probably does have blinders on......I would assume he is surrounded by people who tell him how great everything is. I would be, in his presence since I am a huge fan.....

[martok2112]

Difficult to see...always in motion is technology. Mmmm?

Resepctfully,
2112Martok