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Old January 7th, 2006, 08:13 AM   #1
WarriorChemist
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Default Anybody know this rude person?

Just want to get a warning out there for those who may appreciate it. I would have liked to have known in advance somehow so I could have avoided contact with this person.

Yesterday we received an order from somebody who had just found out about the new viper Michael is making. The guy said, "Guess I've been on the wrong forums" or something like that. (No, this is not the rude guy I'm telling you about.)

It got me to thinking that there must be a lot of forums out there, so I joined some and posted a link to the thread that contains the information and pictures, thinking I was doing a good thing. (Well, to some I was. I only got one negative response back.) What a crab this guy is. He hurt my feelings though, as I just can't shrug this off but I will try.


Here's what he said:

Thanks for wasting my time,

If I wanted to waste my time on BSG Lite i would have

Nice work on the protos and all BUT,...

I just don't like having my time wasted on anything BSG Lite
Please in the future would you please bother to tell just a bit about what it is you want us to go look at so we can decide its worth our bother instead of just posting a link ,
we spending the time going there waiting for all the bloody pics to load ,.. just to find out its something we might not have wanted to bother with in the first place ?

PS
they should try using a pressure pot to remove all the air bubble they might get in the castings
that's what we Pros. in the " Biz " do to make better castings

Max , LUCIFER MAXIMUS
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"THE PROP'S NO GOOD TO ME DEAD"


Ouch.... Ouch....Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm going to go have a late breakfast with Michael and forget this guy and not let it discourage me. I have to remember there's a sour grape in every bunch... Or maybe he's an OK guy just having a bad day. Or maybe it upset him that I sent him a link to another message board. Or maybe he's grouchy because his computer is so slow.

Good advice though about the pressure pot. We were thinking of buying one anyway. At least he contributed something useful.

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Old January 7th, 2006, 08:22 AM   #2
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I'm sorry to hear you received this nasty message. This person has joined here at CF under the same name. I have no idea what he means by "BSG Lite" ?

Don't let him upset you......to put things in perspective, you have Tom DeSanto supporting you....and Lucifer Maximus not supporting you. Which ones more important ? Exactly.

Hope you've quickly moved on........
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Old January 7th, 2006, 09:29 AM   #3
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"BSG Lite" is an older reference to GINO. To my knowledge, it's never been used when referring to the DeSanto/Singer effort, so I suspect somebody's not only rude, but confused as well.

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Old January 7th, 2006, 09:58 AM   #4
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Muffit Thank you...

Just got back from breakfast and running errands. I feel a lot better now. It never got Michael down anyway. I thought about sending him a nasty response, but that's not really my way.

Yes, you're right Ernie... It's a lot more important that Tom DeSanto is supportive of the project. This guy doesn't know that, of course. I didn't mention it because I didn't want that to influence anybody's opinion of the project by "name-dropping". I'd prefer for people to like it for what it is and not because certain people are supportive of it. But of course the support is important - It's like heaps of icing on the cake!

I guess this person is not active on this board or he would have already known about it.

Thanks again, guys. Such nice people here.

Terri
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Old January 7th, 2006, 02:46 PM   #5
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Actually....

I do know that person - I used to be best friends with him in SoCal in the late 70's. He was the person that I had in common with BSG TOS.

I don't understand the rudeness, but I'm guessing that he's mistaken the DeSanto Viper for one from TNS. He rabidly hates TNS.

He does have quite a history with scratchbuilding and costume making. The first thing he ever showed me when we worked at McDonalds together was a scratchbuilt Colonial Laser Pistol that had a flash strobe in it so it would work just like the props from the show.

He was also quite good at scratchbuilding and kitbashing models - he put my modelling skills to shame.

If you want, I'll email him and let him know of his mistake - He frequents a Space:1999 forum I used to post at.

Sympathetically yours,
Bryan
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Old January 7th, 2006, 03:11 PM   #6
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Heart Thank you Bryan

Hi Bryan...

I don't like TNS either! I could go on and on about that! Even if what I had sent him had been from TNS, there was no reason to treat me that way. When I sent it, I had no idea it would take a long time for the pictures to load up on his computer. I don't have to wait for anything on mine, and assumed that in this day and age, nobody else did either. I really did not mean to "waste his time"...

Also, it is always a good idea to be as nice as possible to people. You never know when you may run into that person again... and if you were mean to them before, you better hope like Hell that you won't end up wanting a favor from them later! Ha!

If you want to tell him of his mistake, that is OK with me, but I don't expect it to do any good. If it does that's great. No harm done in trying unless he'd get mad that I complained about him in another forum. Just don't take too long if you tell him though. You may waste too much of his time.
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Old January 7th, 2006, 04:19 PM   #7
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The one thing I will say about my "friend" -

He used the phrase "that's the way the pros do it".....

If you're a professional, then they can at least act the part, not come off like some 2-bit fanboy wanker.

Terri - I admire the work that you and Michael are doing. You're making something from scratch, doing a quality job of it and are trying to make people happy and still make a few bob whilst doing it. That is a tremendous effort considering that you aren't viewed as "professionals" at it. I know that there are lots of people that have been equally as impressed, not the least of, a man named Tom DeSanto - who is also someone that works in "the biz" as Max so tactfully put it

The fact that Tom DeSanto took time from his busy schedule to talk to you and Michael and even set up a future date to meet in person is a gesture from a consumate professional and his time is very valuable. If Tom can take the time, then I doubt the time it took Max to download the pics was as much of a waste as he claims.

The last I heard, Max was doing some kind of modelling work or maybe costume work of some kind. I also know that he makes his own stuff and sells it just like you guys do. I wonder how he would feel if someone took the time to check out his stuff and then had that person piss all over his efforts by claiming that it was a waste of time?

I'll tell you what a waste of time is.....if you spend more than a micron of your time dealing with someone that can't at least be civil to you after you made the effort to send him material to look at.

Keep up the good work folks! You're always professionals in my eyes!

Regards,
Bryan
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Old January 7th, 2006, 05:19 PM   #8
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Heart What a nice place this is...

I can say the nice people here definitely make up for the rudeness I found in my inbox this morning. Thanks for the support and encouragement!

I don't want to really take credit for much of the work. Michael's the one putting in the labor (and blood, as he keeps cutting himself!). All I've done is make a few mold boxes, do calculations, and help pour the molds. The main price I've paid is burning up the credit card at hobby stores to help finance the project, and dealing with my upstairs being a workshop (even my bathroom)! And this is after recently remodeling the upstairs. I get a bit nervous about my new hardwood floors getting damaged, but so far I don't think it's anything that Michael can't fix.

I've also been researching options for new supplies that will make the prototypes of future models come a lot faster (ie - less work). I think I found something this morning but can't order until Monday. It will be fun to experiment with new products, and if we find something good, we'll share it with the group.

I didn't think of that point you made, Bryan, that if Rudeguy is a professional then his behavior is even more inappropriate.

Oh well, no harm done really. We are OK and are still working on the project. Michael is still making the pilot. I'd guess that most people who haven't done this themselves have no idea how time-consuming this stuff is.

Take care,
Terri
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Old January 8th, 2006, 02:57 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorChemist
J
Good advice though about the pressure pot. We were thinking of buying one anyway. At least he contributed something useful.
Finding (any) shred of useful advice and forgetting the rest is the only way to think about him...
Grumpicus Maximus might have been having a bad day or it might be part of his bad life, but don't let him pull you down !! (and Bryan is spot on about professionalism...)

Glad the breakfast got you feeling better..

Cheers,
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Old January 9th, 2006, 10:01 AM   #10
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Okay guys,

I've known Max since 1980- something.

He is a pro. He's been working the Hollywood industry for many years. He's designed and built more screen used props than most of us have ever thought about adding to our collections.

And when he enters a room, he doesn't "knock".

Really, when you get to know him, he's not a bad guy. He just forgot to emit the "handshake" signal when he "dialed up" this time around.

Terri, I'm sorry you got the full brunt of a non-prefaced Max communique'. But after so many years in the biz and having forayed into the fan circles of prop and model building and been hassled at nearly every turn, Max tends to simply be blunt. You can finesse the definition of "professional" all you like, but I'm telling you if Max couldn't function as a professional, he wouldn't still be in the business.

I talked with Max briefly the other night and we have yet to finish the conversation. It doesn't seem like he understood the nature of your post or project. I'll check with him.

-Gordon (Tryin' to keep the peace. None of needs any more enemies than we've already got.)
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Old January 9th, 2006, 04:31 PM   #11
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Muffit Hi Gordon

Well, it's all OK... I really wasn't trying to hassle your friend. Was just trying to spread the word about the DeSanto Viper since that one customer who contacted us said he'd been on the wrong forums. I didn't ask him for anything and I didn't know he'd have to wait a long time for the pictures to load. I decided not to respond to him, because I really don't know what to say. I'm kind of stunned.

I don't think anybody doubted that he was a professional as far as model-making goes. There is though a "code of conduct" that is considered acceptable among professionals. Let's say that the best chemist that I work with cursed me out because I borrowed his pen and forgot to give it back. That would be considered unprofessional behavior, but it doesn't mean he's not a good chemist.

I'm on the internet right now researching different molding products. We've been using silicone, but I just ran across a urethane product that is supposed to have a low viscosity and less bubble problems, yet is strong enough to produce hundreds of castings. Do you have any experience with urethane? I was thinking that a lower viscosity product may catch the details better and let the bubbles escape more quickly. The stuff we are using is very, very thick. It is hard to pour it when using small mold boxes.

Thanks for all your advice with the molding problems we've had. The cannons didn't turn out well and we are out of product. It will take a week for it to get here and I am considering something different this time.

Terri
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Old January 9th, 2006, 06:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spcglider
Okay guys,

I've known Max since 1980- something.

He is a pro. He's been working the Hollywood industry for many years. He's designed and built more screen used props than most of us have ever thought about adding to our collections.

And when he enters a room, he doesn't "knock".

Really, when you get to know him, he's not a bad guy. He just forgot to emit the "handshake" signal when he "dialed up" this time around.

Terri, I'm sorry you got the full brunt of a non-prefaced Max communique'. But after so many years in the biz and having forayed into the fan circles of prop and model building and been hassled at nearly every turn, Max tends to simply be blunt. You can finesse the definition of "professional" all you like, but I'm telling you if Max couldn't function as a professional, he wouldn't still be in the business.

I talked with Max briefly the other night and we have yet to finish the conversation. It doesn't seem like he understood the nature of your post or project. I'll check with him.

-Gordon (Tryin' to keep the peace. None of needs any more enemies than we've already got.)
Gordon -

Thanks for taking point on this one.....quite frankly I didn't know where to start or how to address it without getting Max's panties in a twist. I've known him since 1978 when we were just out of high school. He's basically a good person, but his people skills have always needed a bit of adjustment. He doesn't usually take criticism very well. Some things never change I guess.

He is very talented though - If some of you have ever seen his Lucifer costume, you would just bust a seam. He does some terrific work.

Terri - you and Mike just keep doing things the way you're doing and I'm sure you'll be fine. It's nice to see that you are continually looking for methods to improve the process and produce a quality product that will make your customers happy.

Best,
Bryan
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Old January 9th, 2006, 07:00 PM   #13
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Never let someone else, pro or am, squash your dreams... *especially* if that someone else is in the same "field" of work or hobby.
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Old January 9th, 2006, 08:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior
Never let someone else, pro or am, squash your dreams... *especially* if that someone else is in the same "field" of work or hobby.
I've been following my dreams since a child. And alot of them gets no where, but alot more than I have expected have come true. Because of hard work at it, and a real caution to the wind attitude.
Thanks for all of your thoughtful advice Brian. And thank you Warrior, for that sincere and bold statement. And all the rest that have helped Terri get over this B.S. that some (PRO) in the business, had no business doing.
The place that I come from, defines a (PRO) as one who makes money doing whatever that is. People used to ask me alot "What is a (professional) artist? My response is always "I make money and get paid for what I do. I provide a service." This Lucifer Max- whatever?? Does not behave as such, and is totally non-caring, non-thoughtful, and just rude when viewing others works. If he did'nt like what he had seen, he should have been thoughtful enough not to even take the time to reply, and purposefully and rudely send that comment, but just pass on it, and go on. He wanted to be rude, and he wanted to upset someone and appear surperior in his skills.
He was rude to a lady that I love very much. I hope we never meet.
But he may be a GREAT modeler, but as a human, from what I have seen so far....he sucks!
But thank you all for your kind words, and we do continue, and will get better and better.
Thank-You ALL here at the Fleets.
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Old January 10th, 2006, 07:34 AM   #15
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Ugh.

There you have it. Once that "bad feelings" can-of-worms is open there's no stuffing it back down is there?

I'm probably speaking out-of-turn, but I'm sure Max's comments were off-the-cuff and promoted by disappointment from his perception that the Viper was from New Galactica. I'm also sure Max didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings. It's highly probable that he mis-understood and reacted precipitately.

Yup, he could have expressed that in a different way. No argument there. Feelings were inadvertently hurt.

But, please, folks... don't let this become a divisive thing.

In fact, Terri, if you have a chance to chat with him, you two could have the "mother of all bitch sessions" commiserating about New Galactica. Max is definitely NOT a fan of it either.

And Max is a wealth of information about the very self-same subject you're embroiled in now. Think of him as "the grumpy old sensei" if it helps.

And speaking of that, as the "happy, forgetful sensei" I would dis-advise you on moving to urethane mold-making compounds. Personally, I have never had any sort of satisfactory results with urethane rubbers for any application. Resins, yes... rubbers, no.

All the shops I know stick singularly with silicone for making molds. Its relatively non-toxic, and ALOT more reliable in the results.

Now, there are ways of cutting silicone to thin it out. Talk to your supplier about getting something to thin it with if that is your need, but be warned: when you thin out silicone chemically, it can take up to 8 times longer to solidify. Your supplier should have different formulations of his product to address your needs.

Tip: when you over-catalyze silicones, they kick off much more quickly, but become "brittle" or "cheesy" very fast. The mold life is definitely compromized and you'll get a "crumbly" mold.

One way to deal with your silicone bubble trouble: mix your silicone in a paper cup/container. When you're ready to pour (instead of dumping it out the top of the cup which causes it to come out in a huge, uncontrolled wad-stream), poke a smaller hole in the BOTTOM of the cup and allow the silicone to drain out the bottom and into your mold box.
This helps in two ways: 1) it gives you a thinner pour stream that can be stopped simply by putting your finger over the hole and 2) it allows the bubbles that are in the silicone a longer time to rise to the top (away from the pour hole).

NOTE: Be SURE...and I mean ABSOLUTELY SURE that you've mixed the silicone and the catalyst THOROUGHLY. You don't want un-catalyzed silicone against your pattern, do ya?

-Gordon
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Old January 10th, 2006, 01:32 PM   #16
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Big Grin Molds

Thank you Gordon... I'm ready to drop the thing about Max. I'm over it and moving on... Was just a little shocked, that's all. Feelings have recovered fully!

Thanks for the information about the mold materials. I was doing some reading online and saw that one of the urethane products said it was lower viscosity for less bubbles. I called the help line and they said the same thing you did, that the silicone products were best for our needs.

Thinning sounds like a good idea to me. So what if it takes longer to cure? That would waste less time and money than having to make molds over and over. I don't care if it takes a week to cure as long as it turns out right.
We are out of products again, as Michael may have told you.

I LOVE the paper cup idea! Mixture going down, bubbles going up... giant glob not coming out of hole in bottom! What would be even better, if I could get one, would be a large separatory funnel like the organic chemists use! I had to use one years ago that was huge (4Liters) for some kind of reagent. I had a paddle on a long stick attached to a drill... I had to mix it like crazy at a high speed. Bubbles didn't matter, as the mixture separated and I'd use the valve at the bottom to drain off the layer I wanted, which was the bottom one I think. What was great about it was that even if bubbles were present throughout the mixture, they would join together as they got closer to the valve, where it bottlenecked, and then would rise to the surface. But alas, I cannot take equipment from work, even if we never use it. I'm sure a 4L separatory funnel would cost several hunderd dollars.

Thanks for the wonderful advice that will save us time and money.

Terri
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Old January 10th, 2006, 03:20 PM   #17
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I don't know what you guys are talking about, but this is what fandom should be all about, sharing.

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Old January 11th, 2006, 07:45 AM   #18
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Like I was telling Michael, I've been at this sort of thing for years now and there's quite a few little tricks to working with this stuff to get better mold results.

How is the canopy mold working? I gave him some advice about how to avoid bubbles in that. Just curious as to how it's coming out. The thing you need to remember is the "flow" of the piece. Imagine that your pattern part is a vessel. Look at it carefully and predict how the resin will fill up that vessel when it is poured. That way you can get an idea of where air bubbles might get trapped when you're casting. It helps you to design the mold to avoid problems like that.

I tell ya, if I had a nickel for every time I helped somebody with a mold, I'd have... welll... a least a couple of bucks by now. I lose count.

But also as I was telling Mike, the reason I'm so free and giving with information is that I HATE MAKING MOLDS. Absolutely despise it. I'll avoid it as heartily as I can. If you catch me making a mold it's because my job requires it or because I have no other choice on a personal project. Its gotta be something SUPER spectacular to get me to do a mold (Right Peter?).

Anyway, I'm glad to see that my instruction is being applied and (even better) is actually working for you!

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Old January 11th, 2006, 08:18 AM   #19
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Thumbs up I don't blame you...

I don't like making molds either. I mean, there are some parts of it that could be fun, especially for me because I like making things and always have. What ruins it for me is the cost. I can't believe how expensive this stuff is! I'm so preoccupied with thinking of how to avoid mistakes and avoiding wasting the stuff that I really can't enjoy it.

The mold for the canopy tore! So we have to start all over on that once we get more supplies. They are usually slow to deliver but that's OK really because Michael has to finish the pilot, cockpit, and something else. I'm glad to get a break from molding and this will give me time to get the bathroom, I mean our molding and casting laboratory, cleaned!

Hopefully we will get good enough at this that someday people will be coming to US for advice!

Terri
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Old January 11th, 2006, 09:15 AM   #20
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Oh please... PLEASE tell me you aren't casting urethane INSIDE YOUR LIVING SPACE.

I need our email address. I need to send you some information.

-Gordon
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Old January 11th, 2006, 09:22 AM   #21
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Better yet, here's the info for EVERYONE to read:

Here's the low-down: Urethane, when it cures, releases Isocyanate gasses. Sound familiar? That's because the root word is Cyanaide... a poison.

Isocyanates are long-term poisons that build up in your system. Your body will try very hard to get rid of them, but they don't like to go easily. Exposure to them (even regulated exposure) wil eventually cause them to build up in your body and make you ill.

The amount that it takes varies from person to person, and the time it takes to build up in your body varies as well. But over time, you will develop a sensitivity to them.

Typical symptoms include: shortness of breath (induced athsma), skin rashes, itching, throat irritation, dizziness, and oddly enough, back pain. Other, less obvious effects are irritability, short temper, and even paranoia.

But like I mentioned, this all varies from person to person.

So, how to avoid all this? Easy:

1) get yourself a NIOSH approved filter mask with the biggest, most ass-kicking filter cartridges you can buy. Make sure your catridges are the highest rated ones you can get. They won't completely protect you, but they will help limit the exposure through your lungs.

2) set up your workspace so that you are cross-ventilating to the OUTDOORS. This means you need to have a CONSTANT flow of air running through your space. Clean air must enter at one end and fume-y air must be vented out the other end. Be sure you don't vent right into an area that supplies air to another house or building. Your fumes will just get sucked up and deposited into their space.

3) always wear latex (or if you're allegic to latex) nitrile gloves when handling the urethane components or the mixed combo. Not only can Isocyanates enter your body through the lungs as fumes, but they also affect you through the skin. Be sure to get yourself some of those disposable tyvec jumpsuits they use when they paint cars. It'll keep you from wrecking your clothing.

4) Use and Do all the stuff above.

5) If you feel like you've started to show any of the signs of overexposure, you need to get away from the stuff. Take a break from it for at least two weeks. In the mean time, you can exercise and pump your lungs good and hard...run, bike, whatever. Drink ALOT of water. It helps your body get rid of the toxins. And best of all, get thee to a sauna. Especially after you workout. A sauna will force you to sweat alot and encourage your body to expell the toxins that way.

Now let me be completely clear about this.

THIS IS NOT A JOKE.

I deal with the effects of overexposure on a daily basis. I still work with urethanes, but I must completely isolate myself from their effects with all of the precautions above or I will end up in the Hospital.

If you want more, graphically detailed accounts of overexposure, I'll be happy to supply them. I know many.

Thanks for reading.

-Gordon
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Old January 11th, 2006, 10:06 AM   #22
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Exclamation Urethane?

I thought we were talking about silicone... Yes, I read the MSDS and we are using fans and ventilation and trying not to stay in the room very long.

Believe me, I wish more than anything we had an outside building to do this in. It's on my list of things to get when I can afford it.

I do have a storage room outside but it is impossible to keep the temperature right in there. No insulation. Michael was working out there before it got too cold.

Thanks for the information though. Will check into the mask, probably expensive right?


Terri
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Old January 11th, 2006, 10:22 AM   #23
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A good mask will cost you somewhere around $60, but most masks are pretty much the same base... its the cartridges that are the important part. Get carts that are registered for fume use. But as a chemist, you'll probably be familiar with them.

Sorry to rant on about the urethane. But silicone and urethane go hand in hand and most folks don't understand the dangers. And unlike you, most folks don't understand the importance of reading the MSDS and following the precautions.

And quite frankly, from personal experience, the MSDS for urethanes isn't nearly as explicit as it should be. It should have large red letters that say "FOLLOW PRECAUTIONS OR DIE" on it. If I ran the zoo, that's how it'd be!

-Gordon
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Old January 11th, 2006, 10:42 AM   #24
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Muffit

At work we use ventilation hoods and never wear masks. The hoods are enough for what we do, but some chemist jobs do require masks... such as when working with nerve agent or something! I just test drinking water and don't have to use many hazardous chemicals at all! I think I'm very fortunate to have this job. It could be so much worse.
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Old January 11th, 2006, 03:54 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spcglider
I HATE MAKING MOLDS. Absolutely despise it. I'll avoid it as heartily as I can. If you catch me making a mold it's because my job requires it or because I have no other choice on a personal project. Its gotta be something SUPER spectacular to get me to do a mold (Right Peter?).
Yeah, he hates making molds, but sometimes he just sees something and says something, and the next minute he's making a mold! That'll teach him to be kind and generous!

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Old January 12th, 2006, 06:34 AM   #26
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Please.... please. Don't spread such nasty rumors about me!

Naw... I'm mean and grumpy and don't share with anybody!! Yeah, THAT's it!! Grrrr!

Now you kids get outta my yard or I'll set the daggits loose on ya!!!

LOL.

-Gordon
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Old March 3rd, 2006, 02:29 PM   #27
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Man! And I thought I was a grumpy Ol' Mister Wilson! Ouch!
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