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Old October 4th, 2005, 03:00 PM   #1
Kaith Rustaz
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Considering that we see the loss of the Atlantia at Cimtar, and the Galactica withdrawing, that left 3 Battlestars caught unprepared facing a substantial cylon force. I do not believe that at any time did we see non-battlestars there.

That none of the other 3 survived isn't confirmed AFAIK, only asumed. One or more of them may have been able to also retreat, return home find the colonies destroyed, load up what they could and head off for parts unknown.

Looking at the damage at Pearl Harbor may give some ideas as well to the situation I think.
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Old October 4th, 2005, 03:35 PM   #2
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Why assume they ran? They may have had other fleets off doing DMZ patrols. Just because your at peace talks does not mean you just welcome the old enemies in. Remember Ronald Regan "Trust, but verify" and that wouls explain the lack of ships in the series attack. Naturally they would not necessarily NEED Corvettes, Cruisers, Destroyers, and the tending ships, repair ships, Light Assault Carriers, Landing ships ect ect ect... for a presidential function. Most likely the ships we saw in the series attack was what could be spared from their duties. When Adama says the fleet is gone, he may honestly believe it, after all if the Cylons were jamming the other fleets reports, or keeping them from hearing about the colony attacks, then Adama might very well believe it. And they would probably want to keep the other fleets ignorant of the attack. They would enrage the other fleets, making their fight harder. So theres a good probability that there are other types and numbers of ships, just not as many Battlestars.
At least thats the concept I use in my stories, the fight for the colonies just begins after the Galactica leaves. If they ever return, in my stories at least, they will find a ragged series of colonies with battered fleets patrolling them, wondering where the Battlestars went.

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Old October 4th, 2005, 03:42 PM   #3
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I really don't know what to say, as far as I know there were only five battlestars. It leads to a lot of speculation about offensive and defensive capability.

The Colonial planetary defence sysytems must have been pretty impenetrable, after all it took sabotage from within to take them down.

I have no doubt that the Colonials were slowly losing the war, that's why they were quick to take the olive branch offered by baltar on behalf of the Cylons.
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Old October 4th, 2005, 03:50 PM   #4
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That is my thoughts too. Cylon plan seemed to be 1-lead main offensive forces away & destroy. 2-destroy defensive forces, 3-destroy civilians. Gonna throw out some random thoughts here...

I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Cain said something about the whole cylon fleet being between him and the colonies so thats why he headed away into deep space.

Adama believed Cain had died at Molekay (sp). This would indicate some time had passed between the destruction of the 5th Fleet, and Cimtar.


12 BattleStars
Lets assume that the Atlantia was ceremonial only (ala AirForce 1) for a moment, and that the 4 BattleStars accompanying her were the "best" of the fleet. That would leave 8 unaccounted for.
We know Pegasus was leading the 5th fleet.
What if a "fleet" was a pair of battlestars? That would give 6 total fleets, with the Atlantia possibly being the "home fleet" command ship.
Cylon task forces seem to consist of 3 BaseStars, so a 2 ship Colonial task force doesn't seem much of a stretch.
Also, considering the size of a BattleStar, it can safely be assumed that they were designed for long-term independant operations. This belief is reinforced by the fact that the Galactica operated under adverse conditions, participated in heavy combat for prolonged periods of time without benefit of spacedock or fleet-resupply yet continued to be battleworthy throughout the 1st season

The cylons seemed to be losing the war despite destroying Cains fleet. I base that on the lack of desperation on the part of the Quorum in the beginning. The feeling of the humans seemed to be more happy it's about to be over, than war-weary and shellshocked. That became apparent after the holocost.



Sorry if the thoughts ramble a bit.
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Old October 4th, 2005, 04:12 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabitha
Why assume they ran? They may have had other fleets off doing DMZ patrols. Just because your at peace talks does not mean you just welcome the old enemies in. Remember Ronald Regan "Trust, but verify" and that wouls explain the lack of ships in the series attack. Naturally they would not necessarily NEED Corvettes, Cruisers, Destroyers, and the tending ships, repair ships, Light Assault Carriers, Landing ships ect ect ect... for a presidential function. Most likely the ships we saw in the series attack was what could be spared from their duties. When Adama says the fleet is gone, he may honestly believe it, after all if the Cylons were jamming the other fleets reports, or keeping them from hearing about the colony attacks, then Adama might very well believe it. And they would probably want to keep the other fleets ignorant of the attack. They would enrage the other fleets, making their fight harder. So theres a good probability that there are other types and numbers of ships, just not as many Battlestars.
At least thats the concept I use in my stories, the fight for the colonies just begins after the Galactica leaves. If they ever return, in my stories at least, they will find a ragged series of colonies with battered fleets patrolling them, wondering where the Battlestars went.

tabbi
Here's where we get into the psychology of the Colonial military, and the difference between "Warriors" and "Soldiers"...and yes, it's one of the differences between TOS and GINO 2.0.

In GINO, the Colonial military is a "through a glass...darkly" version of the US military machine; where Warriors are very pragmatic about "living to fight another day"(meaning, break and run, and harry the enemy when you have the advantage), Soldiers (like Adama2.0) will dig in their heels and hold until they are overrun and annihilated, or get rescued.

Adama1.0 is saavy enough to know that even if one or two other battlestars survived, and even if they can link up, they are no threat to the Cylons, and they won't be able to retake the Colonies; the Cylons are pursuing the RTF out of spite.(Ref "LL"1.0)

Humanity's onnly chance is to find allies, and no one in their region of space is going to help them.....Hence, the search for Earth...

...Poor bastards.....
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Old October 4th, 2005, 04:17 PM   #6
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Well my stories are open format stories, of course stuff that is posted to be stupid is ignored. If you want, Id love to have you maybe help out a bit with ideas and stuff to help me write something worth reading...

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Old October 4th, 2005, 05:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabitha
Well my stories are open format stories, of course stuff that is posted to be stupid is ignored. If you want, Id love to have you maybe help out a bit with ideas and stuff to help me write something worth reading...

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By all means! Email me offlist at cessnamichael@yahoo.com
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Old October 4th, 2005, 05:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaith Rustaz
That is my thoughts too. Cylon plan seemed to be 1-lead main offensive forces away & destroy. 2-destroy defensive forces, 3-destroy civilians. Gonna throw out some random thoughts here...

<snip>

12 BattleStars
Lets assume that the Atlantia was ceremonial only (ala AirForce 1) for a moment, and that the 4 BattleStars accompanying her were the "best" of the fleet. That would leave 8 unaccounted for.
We know Pegasus was leading the 5th fleet.
<snip>

The cylons seemed to be losing the war despite destroying Cains fleet. I base that on the lack of desperation on the part of the Quorum in the beginning. The feeling of the humans seemed to be more happy it's about to be over, than war-weary and shellshocked. That became apparent after the holocost.

Sorry if the thoughts ramble a bit.

No prob! Outside of Cain's hyperbole and the Atlantia being a strictly ceremonial ship, I can see the logic in your thoughts.

Problem is, a battlestar only carries maybe 72 Vipers, plus a few shuttles; I base this on the launch bays only having 16 launch tubes: 16x2=32, plus probably double that to launch in a second wave(32 Vipers to a Squadron, 16 to a Wing). It could probably carry more in a pinch, but only by sacrificing shuttles.

I agree that the battlestars were designed for long-duration missions, but remember that the Gal(and likely the Peg, previously) only went head-to-head with Cylon basestars once each in the first season, and the Gal didn't take too many hits from what we see.

The Cylon Raiders cause periodic damage, but the only time it is truly serious for the Gal is during FiS. I think that by mid-Season Two, the Gal would be needing a real yard pretty badly.

The point, though, is that there's no reason to assume a boiler-plate organizational structure based on what's on-screen. Also note that the Gal carries very little in the way of combat troops; they have armed landrams (eqv to Earth APCs), and there seem to be SWAT-capable security troops(based on 'Baltar's Escape'), but I think that Galactica was bursting at the seams by that time.

Finally, I have doubts that the Cylons were "losing"; I think it far more likely that it was the Colonials who were losing slowly, but simply hadn't admitted it to themselves.

Remember, the Cylons were running a wonking HUGE empire, and the Humans were getting in the way; that's more of a nuisance than a threat. I think that the Cylons threw the dice at Cimtar, and banked a large chunk of their Fleet on knocking the Colonies out at one stroke...Even if Cimtar turned out to be a disaster for the Cylons, they would have inflicted massive damage and casualties on the Colonies, and likely wouldn't have lost too many assets.
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Old October 4th, 2005, 08:50 PM   #9
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Excellent points there, and the comparison of Warriors to Samurai may be a good one.
- They seem to be a special class.
- There seems to be some code of honor in effect. (Apollo giving his "word as a Warrior")
- They are separate from the rest of the military. (Crew wears blue or black, brown is reserved for CW)
- The "nobility" shown by Adama and in his Pattonesque way, Cain seem similar to romantasized views of Samurai lords (Think Last Samurai)

It's not Lucas's pseudo-samurai vision, but I can see some good resemblances.
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Old October 5th, 2005, 03:54 PM   #10
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Did some digging, don't have time to 'pretty' it up. I went through the books I have, and did some googling. Here's my raw notes.

====
BattleStars:

Galactica
Atlantia - Destroyed at Cimtar
Solaria - Destroyed at Cimtar
??
??
2 fleet battlecruisers destroyed (pg 32) Is this a typo and was meant to say BattleStar not Cruiser?

Pacifica - Detroyed prior to Cimtar
Pegasus - Survived destruction of 5th fleet.

Adama in novelization "thinks" 5 BattleStars in the Colonial Fleet. (pg 13)

2 fleet battlecruisers destroyed (pg 32)
Refueling stations mentioned (pg44)
Defensive system mentioned, Sagitara had most sophisticated. (pg53)


John Larocque maintains an excellent resource at http://www.kobol.com/archives/batlstar.html
It states that the 5 Battlestars at Cimtar were: Galactica, Atlantia, Acropolis, Triton & Pacifica.

Mentioned in other episodes are Columbia, Rycon, Cerberus, Bellerophon, Olympia, Valiant, Promotheus, Argo and Poseidon

Juggling these around we get 17:
Galactica, Atlantia, Acropolis, Triton, Pacifica, Columbia, Rycon, Cerberus, Bellerophon, Olympia, Valiant, Promotheus, Argo, Poseidon, Solaria, Pacifica, Pegasus.

Larson himself states that the 12 Battlestar limit wasn't official.
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Old October 5th, 2005, 05:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaith Rustaz
Did some digging, don't have time to 'pretty' it up. I went through the books I have, and did some googling. Here's my raw notes.

<snip>

John Larocque maintains an excellent resource at http://www.kobol.com/archives/batlstar.html
It states that the 5 Battlestars at Cimtar were: Galactica, Atlantia, Acropolis, Triton & Pacifica.

<snip>

Larson himself states that the 12 Battlestar limit wasn't official.
I base most of my own notes around John Larocque's research, specifically the comment from GL that there was never a set limit on the number of battlestars. From that flows all of my speculations on fleet strength and operations.

Given that I have yet to hear anyone trash my thoughts on the Colonies' population and capacity, I think my assumptions are pretty safe.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 10:29 AM   #12
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Damocles,

I have no trouble with the vast majority of your points; as far as fleet auxiliaries, I think we're seeing some of them in the Celestra, and in the mining ship[s].

I still am willing to doubt a series of Colonial AEGIS-types hulls; the 'gators don't seem to need them, especially when operating in groups(the Cimtar attack was a special case). The cold, hard facts are that the AEGIS-type hulls are out there to absorb damage as they die, in order to protect the carriers; the USN/RN can dance around the subject all they like, but that's what they're there for.

I don't see a lot of that attitude among the TOS Colonial military, at least as they are portrayed.

That said, the lack of AEGIS-type designs among the Cylons is a head-scratcher...

I have always assumed that the Cylons were overstreched in their war with the Colonials, but I doubt that they were in as bad shape as they Colonials seemed to think; and while you are correct that the Cylons should have been able to outproduce and roll over the Colonials, I think that you're spot-on that the Cylons seem to have an imperative not to waste resources unnecessarily.

As to Cylon naval tactics, I think that they used the fighters in concert with the tankers so that they could deploy the baseships with additional Raider units to the Colonies; again, assuming that the Cylons gambled a large chunk of their fleet reserves on the "Cimtar Gambit", they were likely using the bulk of their fleet elsewhere, to keep an eye on subject populations.

Also, I would characterize the Cylons as more akin to the Soviets than the Japanese...

And TOS had good writers because they had people in TV in those days who could actually write...
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Old October 6th, 2005, 12:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarMachine

I still am willing to doubt a series of Colonial AEGIS-types hulls; the 'gators don't seem to need them, especially when operating in groups(the Cimtar attack was a special case). The cold, hard facts are that the AEGIS-type hulls are out there to absorb damage as they die, in order to protect the carriers; the USN/RN can dance around the subject all they like, but that's what they're there for.

I don't see a lot of that attitude among the TOS Colonial military, at least as they are portrayed.

That said, the lack of AEGIS-type designs among the Cylons is a head-scratcher...

<snip>

Also, I would characterize the Cylons as more akin to the Soviets than the Japanese...

And TOS had good writers because they had people in TV in those days who could actually write...
1. I argue that the Colonials build bodyguard ships for precisely that reason, to divert and act as banzai jammers and missile sponges.

2. The Russians probably were the cultural model for your average Cylon, but militarily they, the Cylons, always struck me as Japanese in behavior-stiicking to a rigid plan; then becoming disrupted if things went wrong. Say what you like about the gross incompetence and inefficiency of the Russian economy in general and their military specifically, but the Russian battlefield leadership has been historically GOOD and imaginative. Its mainly their junior officers and soldiery that skunked on the battlefield.

3. Good writers are hard to find, but they are out in the world. When I think of the talent wasting in the wilderness out there that you can find if you GOOGLE.....

Trust me, you can find people to write new "Tales of the Alligator" that would blow the current competition out of space.

The market would carry it and you could sell it. We see that it is possible with an inferior product. Why not try for the objective with better?
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Old October 6th, 2005, 12:35 PM   #14
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Nothing wrong with doing a full length fan-film.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 01:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaith Rustaz
Nothing wrong with doing a full length fan-film.
The big kicker is the CGI and the copyright issues.

As I understand the art now, we are about a decade away from actually morphing totally lifelike actors into a CGI animation.(The algorithmns are ferociously complex and the computer OS to handle the algorithmns is just now being written)

Once those hurdles are cleared we can desktop CGI our fanfilm with original actors (image copyrights?) and supply our own voice talent and script. These CGI actors become puppets that we marionette through our fan film to suit our story. Then you go and publish.

The hang up then is the copyright issue and the SAG(Who will go ballistic once actors' images can be morphed into a film.).

We saw a glimpse of the future when we saw that disgustiong frog JarJar.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 02:08 PM   #16
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I just want to say 'These are very intresting threads, the most intresting I have read in a while on the abilitys of the Colonial fleet..' Don't let me stop you..Go on!!
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Old October 6th, 2005, 02:27 PM   #17
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I do want to make one caveat, here: the whole basis of my thoughts on Colonial fleet strength, strategy and tactics is based on my 'jump-line' drive theory...Sometimes, I forget to mention that.

If the Gal/Colonial Fleet are using some other type of drive, a lot of my ideas go out the window.....My problem is that as hard as I try, I can't think of another FTL system that explains what we see as 'screen canon', at least from the technical side.....
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Old October 6th, 2005, 02:37 PM   #18
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Oh great, you just blew my whole thought, I cant even begin to think now.. thanks a lot Taranis, you just stopped me cold hahahahah

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Old October 6th, 2005, 03:54 PM   #19
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Looking at the various sources, maybe "reality" is in the middle?

Cylon task forces are 3 basestars. Maybe a Colonial "Fleet" is 5 Battlestars? The Pegasus was the flagship and sole survivor of the 5th fleet. Galactica was the sole survivor of the "Home" or 1st fleet?

Looking at the Cylons flying basically Zeros (cheep, high manuver short-range fighters), with the Colonials flying higher quality fighters, the ability of the outnumbered humans to outfly/gun their opponent isn't far fetched.

5 BattleStars at 75 fighters each = 375 fighters. A pretty formidable force even against 1,000 enemy fighters. I recall several references to a Cylon Pinwheel attack, where several cylon ships surround and overwelm a single colonial. This would seem to indicate the Cylons often relied on overwelming numbers and massed group attacks as tactics.

Also of note, is the Cylons often willingness to absorb heavy losses in order to inflict a blow.
- At Cimtar, the fighters attacked unescorted.
- At Gamoray the fighters went back and forth until wiped out.
- On at least 1 other occation (Fire in space I think) they came in enmasse and just took it so that they could shield a kamikaze.

Cylon strength at Cimtar was about 1,000 fighters engaging the fleet, while basestars with full squadrons attacked the homeworlds. At 2-3 basestars per planet, that would give the Cylon strength at about 24-36 basestars, with a fighter compliment of about 90 per, that would give the Cylons a fleet at the destruction of about 4,200 fighters.

As to other ships, I do believe a foundry ship, agro ships, and other specialized types are mentioned throughout the episodes.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 08:02 PM   #20
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Kaith,

I like your figures on the Cylons.....I'll knaw on this for a while, and get back to you.

General question: Has anyone ever written a RPG for BSG?
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Old October 6th, 2005, 08:11 PM   #21
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RPG? Yes I have in both R.Talsorian rules (Mekton, Cyberpunk ect) as well as in the Dream Pod 9 system (Sillouette system, Jovian Chronicals, Heavy Gear)
Theres also stuff for the D20 system if you google it (Star Wars) so yea, there is and no there isnt, but you can put together a game if you try hard enough, depending on the system you like.
Theres a whole lotta gamin going on on road trips...

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Old October 6th, 2005, 08:21 PM   #22
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I kinda fudged the old FASA rules for Trek to do a battle between a battlestar and a V Mothership.
Oh, and have played some SFB with the Galactica add-on (unofficial of course).
While in HS I used to DM alot, wrote a wrestling RPG, and a couple of CRPG's.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 08:30 PM   #23
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Holy crap, Im more of a nerd than I thought... I game, understand some sciency stuff, and post on a BBS.. maybe I am a nerd... wow... this is sureal


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Old October 6th, 2005, 08:42 PM   #24
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I used to be a nerd..then I got LASIK (bad move, long seperate story).

They stripped me of my pocket protector and protractor. It was terrible.
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Old October 7th, 2005, 12:27 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaith Rustaz

Looking at the various sources, maybe "reality" is in the middle?

Cylon task forces are 3 basestars. Maybe a Colonial "Fleet" is 5 Battlestars? The Pegasus was the flagship and sole survivor of the 5th fleet. Galactica was the sole survivor of the "Home" or 1st fleet?

Looking at the Cylons flying basically Zeros (cheep, high manuver short-range fighters), with the Colonials flying higher quality fighters, the ability of the outnumbered humans to outfly/gun their opponent isn't far fetched.

5 BattleStars at 75 fighters each = 375 fighters. A pretty formidable force even against 1,000 enemy fighters. I recall several references to a Cylon Pinwheel attack, where several cylon ships surround and overwelm a single colonial. This would seem to indicate the Cylons often relied on overwelming numbers and massed group attacks as tactics.

Also of note, is the Cylons often willingness to absorb heavy losses in order to inflict a blow.
- At Cimtar, the fighters attacked unescorted.
- At Gamoray the fighters went back and forth until wiped out.
- On at least 1 other occation (Fire in space I think) they came in enmasse and just took it so that they could shield a kamikaze.

Cylon strength at Cimtar was about 1,000 fighters engaging the fleet, while basestars with full squadrons attacked the homeworlds. At 2-3 basestars per planet, that would give the Cylon strength at about 24-36 basestars, with a fighter compliment of about 90 per, that would give the Cylons a fleet at the destruction of about 4,200 fighters.

As to other ships, I do believe a foundry ship, agro ships, and other specialized types are mentioned throughout the episodes.
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I remember reading that in the Mariannas Turkey Shoot that Japanese fighters(Zekes) adopted a circle circuit as a defensive tactic against paired Hellcats that used a variant of the Thatch Weave where they scissored in a zoom and swoop attack on the incompetent Japanese pilots. It didn't work.


As to the Cylon numbers? It seems that if you combined your numbers and mine that the Cylons commited everything they had to Cimtar which jibes with my hypothesis.


Even at that they lacked the total forces to overwhelm the Colonials without extensive sabotage and surprise.


For example; I would think that each Colony would have local aerospace defense units(planetary anti-spacecraft missile and fighter defenses). A battlestar may require deep space infrastructure to build but you can build Vipers at Martin Marietta and base them at Robins.


Surprise is the only thing that works for the Cylons.


So the following has to happen for their ambush at Cimtar to work


-No Colonial Viper cap or recon.


-No deep space DRADIS functioning.


-communications jamming.


-and the Cylon ambush has to be close in time, no more than ten minutes apart at Cimtar and at the Colonies. Otherwise, some of the Colonies would have gotten fighters up and the Cylons, scattered apart as they were would be subject to defeat in detail.


A Colony could in theory easily scramble 100-300 Vipers provided the alert gave them warning.


For it to work, the Cylon basestars have to practically jump in on the Colony they were assigned to atack and hit the infrastructure before the ground defenses could react.


That also indicates something troubling to me.


The Colonies had no midrange deepspace fighter bases in their star system(s)?


As an afficianado of CBG and another fictional treatment of this subject,(see avatar) I find that astonishing and always wondered how you could explain this.


One last thought if I may; I always estimated that the basestars had three hanger complexes that held a battlestar's equivalent of fighters in each hanger complex. So I was comfortable with the number of 225-300 Cylon Raiders per basestar. It tied in with the radially symmetric design the Cylons used in their "double stacked sanddollars".


So if we were looking at a force of 36 basestars, I would have expected about 8100-10,000 Raiders?

Jester; I will have to consider that article. I find many of its assumptions interesting and strongly at variance with conclusions I reached from watching CBG.

How much of it, the article, is "canon"?
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Old October 7th, 2005, 06:51 AM   #26
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Heres an odd thought (Yea I know an odd thought from tabbi? thats nothing new) Would the Warriors be more like the Dorsai?

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Old October 7th, 2005, 07:25 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles
<snip>

One last thought if I may; I always estimated that the basestars had three hanger complexes that held a battlestar's equivalent of fighters in each hanger complex. So I was comfortable with the number of 225-300 Cylon Raiders per basestar. It tied in with the radially symmetric design the Cylons used in their "double stacked sanddollars".


So if we were looking at a force of 36 basestars, I would have expected about 8100-10,000 Raiders?

Jester; I will have to consider that article. I find many of its assumptions interesting and strongly at variance with conclusions I reached from watching CBG.

How much of it, the article, is "canon"?
All,

After sleeping on this, I have to agree with Damocles.

Lurking in the back of my mind is the figure of 200-300 Raiders per Basestar(I think it's from HoG); with 3 Basestars per Colony, that means upwards of 900 Raiders per planet, plus the orbital firepower of the Basestars themselves...

...Still, I find those figures too low. As Damocles points out, just as the Cylons did at Gamoray, there is no reason for each Colony not to have had c.200-300 Vipers ready to go, in addition to at least a couple of remote-system fighter bases with a battlestar-level compliment of fighters; even allowing for a "Pearl Harbor"-style surprise attack, and the treason/sabotage of Baltar's agents, there should have been a much stronger Colonial response to the Cylon attack. Also, if you allow for lighter combat vessels of destroyer-cruiser size as per Damocles, you have an even more lopsided battle in favor of the Colonials.

The figure that I have been working from in my head was c.1000 Basestars throughout the Cylon Empire at the time of the Cimtar ambush; commiting 25-40 Basestars to a direct attack on the Colonies would be a significant chunk of their fleet.

At the same time, I hesitate to double the number of Basestars in the main attack to c.50-80, as this then begs the question: why did't they catch the Gal/RTFF flat-footed, either over Caprica or in their assembly area? Also, if they Basetars destroyed all/most of the Colonial fleet elements in-system, why didn't at least a few stick around?

In my model of the 'jump-line' drive, the Basestars would have started a relay, ferrying Cylon troops to the Colonies as extermination forces; but I can't justify not leaving at least one to four Basestars as operational bases for Raiders to work from, scattered throughout the system. Even allowing for heavy casualties among the attacking Basestars, they would run the risk of having to make a second series of assault landings, as surviving Colonial ground units would have wiped out the relatively small forces that the first wave could deliver.

Hmmmmmm.........

Let's try this:

*The Cylons stage simultaneous attacks at both Cimtar and the Colonies, committing the bulk of their forces at the Colonies;

*We know that they used tankers to escort the Raiders to Cimtar(I'm leaving aside the implications of the jump-line drive theory for the moment), so let's make the following assumptions:

**Apollo and Zac only found two tankers; that doesn't mean that there weren't more tankers hidden, given the interference from both the natural phenomenon and the Cylon's jamming

**Since it's pretty clear that there were at least 1000 Raiders at Cimtar, and I find it difficult to believe that each tanker could refuel c.500 Raiders, let's assume a total of ten tankers - Apollo and Zac spotted two and boogied(the correct thing to do), but missed the other eight - where each tanker can escort/refuel 100 Raiders

**Given the above, what if each Basestar in the main attack(on the Colonial homeworlds), say 36 total, were each escorting 5-10 tankers, each of which is supporting 100 Raiders apiece?

**Suddenly, we have upwards of 1900-2000 Raiders per planet, plus the Basestars main batteries; if the Cylons deployed a couple of other tanker/Raider squadrons, they would be able to deal with any out-system bases...

At the same time, assuming heavy casualties among the Basestars, you still have the requirement to ferry troops back and forth; confusion occurs, ships get missed.....and the RTFF manage to escape.

Thoughts?
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Old October 7th, 2005, 09:48 AM   #28
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Quote:

Originally Posted by WarMachine
<snip>

*We know that they used tankers to escort the Raiders to Cimtar(I'm leaving aside the implications of the jump-line drive theory for the moment), so let's make the following assumptions:

**Apollo and Zac only found two tankers; that doesn't mean that there weren't more tankers hidden, given the interference from both the natural phenomenon and the Cylon's jamming

**Since it's pretty clear that there were at least 1000 Raiders at Cimtar, and I find it difficult to believe that each tanker could refuel c.500 Raiders, let's assume a total of ten tankers - Apollo and Zac spotted two and boogied(the correct thing to do), but missed the other eight - where each tanker can escort/refuel 100 Raiders

<snip>
For crying out loud!(astonished)

I missed that.

How were the Raiders pre-positioned at Cimtar?

I have seen nothing that convinces me that Cylons had any kind of jump drive integral to that Raider smallcraft.

Tanker craft may inflate a worm hole and make the transit allowing Raiders to come with them, but for them to escort a thousand raiders? The idea I have is that ten tankers is no where near enough.

That needs explanation.

Any takers?
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Old October 7th, 2005, 10:19 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles
For crying out loud!(astonished)

I missed that.

How were the Raiders pre-positioned at Cimtar?

I have seen nothing that convinces me that Cylons had any kind of jump drive integral to that Raider smallcraft.

Tanker craft may inflate a worm hole and make the transit allowing Raiders to come with them, but for them to escort a thousand raiders? The idea I have is that ten tankers is no where near enough.

That needs explanation.

Any takers?
Well, I addressed that in the first part of my post at http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums...ad.php?t=12033

In the ep, we only see two tankers, but with c.1000 Raiders hitting the fleet at Cimtar, I seriously doubt that two tankers could refuel all of them. So, I went with ten tankers(8 were not found), each refuelling/escorting c.100 Raiders each....
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Old October 7th, 2005, 10:38 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarMachine
Well, I addressed that in the first part of my post at http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums...ad.php?t=12033

In the ep, we only see two tankers, but with c.1000 Raiders hitting the fleet at Cimtar, I seriously doubt that two tankers could refuel all of them. So, I went with ten tankers(8 were not found), each refuelling/escorting c.100 Raiders each....
Some questions.

How many Raiders can you send through a tanker-inflated wormhole?

How big was that wormhole each tanker opened?

Note that the freighters/tankers shown were NOT carriers and could not ferry aboard a hundred Raiders each..

Those Raiders had to get to their IPs under their own power.

That means something had to get them there either as a carrier or as an escort that could operate the "tramline".

Now I have a very good idea of just how much negative entropy it would take to transmit a man(if it was even possible) through a wormhole. A tanker, even a military tanker full of TYLIUM would not have the power to do that designed into it.

Therefore; I propose that the Cylons built special prepositioned wormhole inflation machines(Call these devices, "Jumpgates", at their end of the the wormhole tramline.)

That might explain the low number of tankers seen, and the lack of basestars(carriers).
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