Dark and Flawed Adama: SOASW DVD

Commander Adama as portrayed in the movie Saga of A Star World on the DVD box set is a markedly different character than the Commander Adama presented on SOASW on television and in the later Battlestar Galactica TOS episodes. His character is NOT the pillar of strength leading the colonials against the odds with hope, faith, and strength. He is a beaten man who is making only a superficial effort to lead his people. He has an idea of what needs to be done but little will to make it happen. Throughout the show it is Apollo forcing Adama to do the right thing not Adama that is the real force behind moving the colonials on. It would appear that Larson's original intent was to give us the good but dark and flawed leader. SOASW with the deleted scenes is the more adult darker Battlestar we have heard about.

Adama takes the Battlestar Galactica away from the initial battle and heads toward his home planet. He decides to go down not to lead but to check out his house and family. He originally wasn't going down with any security. He goes down to cry. It is Apollo and Tigh that understand the situation. It is Apollo that gets him ready for the civilians that are coming. Adama wasn't down there to meet civilians. When the people show up he turns on the politician mode and tells the people what they want to hear. Whether he believes there is an Earth I seriously wonder. (Look at this as a free standing movie which is what it originally was.)

Adama ignores the food problem even though he obviously is aware of the situation and what is going on aboard the Rising Star. Once again Apollo the real driving factor in leadership steps in the fix the situation.

Going to Carillon would never happen as Adama was being meekly steamrolled without the intervention of Apollo.

Adama's inadequate leadership and defeatism throughout the movie is the cause of the confrontation scene between Apollo and Adama. If Apollo was the father and Adama was the son I bet Apollo would have slacked him and told him to stand up like a man. We even see the seed a similar "we deserved to be destroyed" talk people have about the mini in Adama's expanation of how he had voted for Sire Yuri to be on the Council.

Adama's later scene with Athena is another "I do not want the burden" speech.

We later see that Adama has little control over what is going on as it appears he has abdicated much of his power to Sire Yuri who sends half the population down to Carillon.

Larson's dark flawed Battlestar Galactica which inspired Ron Moore can be found right here. SOASW Adama just like Moore's Adama is questioning what he has done and whether humanity is really worthy. To a great extent Moore's Adama is far more decisive and more willing to lead. If TOS was not rushed into production and Larson had his way I wonder what Commander Adama would have really been like. The Commander Adama I watched last night was not the same character I have come to understand.

I actually think the second half of SOASW as presented in the DVD box set is superior to the version originally aired. Most of my issues with SOASW were removed. This was a great movie, all the way through. I do now however think that to some extent I need to view Commander Adama of SOASW as separate from the Commander Adama of later TOS episodes.

Moore's themes with William Adama are a lot closer to Larson's true version then I thought. For the first time I came to view Moore's Adama and President Roslin (as opposed to Sire Yuri) both to be stronger and more decisive characters than their basis in SOASW. The TOS (or more correctly the original Larson) theme is a bit deeper than I think many recognize.

If you haven't seen SOASW as it appears on the DVD box set you need to buy it or rent it. It is NOT the SOASW you know and love...It is better!

[thomas7g]

Adama takes the Battlestar Galactica away from the initial battle and heads toward his home planet. He decides to go down not to lead but to check out his house and family. He originally wasn't going down with any security. He goes down to cry. It is Apollo and Tigh that understand the situation. It is Apollo that gets him ready for the civilians that are coming. Adama wasn't down there to meet civilians. When the people show up he turns on the politician mode and tells the people what they want to hear. Whether he believes there is an Earth I seriously wonder. (Look at this as a free standing movie which is what it originally was.)

I think you missed something. Adama had a wife in the path of the cylon destruction. His main concern was for her safety. And only her.

His speech decision to leave the star system was a military appraisment. With 4 battlestars destroyed and 12 planets in flames they had insufficient resources to stop the cylons. They had to escape. He had a moment of inspiration.

His indecision afterwards came as the weight of what happened began to sink in. And largely after him having to decide like God who should live and die as he repeatedly chose who could board the ragtag ships. And who could not. The burdon was more than he could take.

I think the main difference in how the two Adama's faced what happened was the first felt the destruction of the colonies. He greived over it. It tore his heart out to know people had died. He went through shock, as alot of the crew did.

To me, I think the first hour of the pilot is alot better than the Carrilon adventure. Infact I think the first hour is about as good as sci fi usually gets. The destruction of the colonies, the exodus, the minefield, all were top notch. Would love to see some new added cgi added on top, but that's it.



btw... you mentioned you like the Carrilon scene better. ... what parts did you like better?

[kingfish]

http://pp226.proboards25.com/index.c...num=1085151000

[kingfish]

Purist all the way and DARNED proud of it. TOS is the ONLY way to fly. Antelope are you Ronald D Moore? Just curious because you seem to love his new work.

Thomas: Like you I originally thought the first hour of SOASW is the best scifi ever made. After that it was if the show down shifted into slow. I almost thought Larson didn't know what to do with the rest of the time.

Now that I have seen it again with the missing scenes that it appears I haven't seen since 1978 it suddenly has an interior story that is very gripping. The whole second part now is not a slow story about a food shortage and some stupid politicians, but the story of a man coming to grips with himself in a desperate situation. A situation he really doesn't want but has been thrust upon him. The remainder of the show is now Adama's story. How he goes from a beaten man who lost his youngest son, his wife, and his will to move on to the leader of his people. It is the story of Apollo, a man not at the age for leadership but who must but into the affairs of the elders and give his father a kick in the ass, something a son never wants to do with a father he looks up to. I think Apollo's scene with his father that I had previously forgotten is possibly the best scene Apollo had in TOS. Richard Hatch did a great job there. I once questioned Richard Hatch's decision to take the role of Apollo based on what he said about the depth not the money. I think these deleted scenes from the theatrical release go a long way to showing the emotion and depth Hatch may have been talking about. I think maybe in the rushed later TOS episodes they may have tried to play it a bit too safe with some of the characters. I am very glad I got to see the full SOASW after all these years. I didn't realize what I was missing.

Kingfish: No Antelope is not a web name for Ron Moore. I do like his work both in Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica although I am not familiar with his work outside these two franchises. I think I understand a bit more than most where Ron Moore is coming from and where he is going. I may be wrong. I guess I will find out as I watch the new series, which I hope is good.

As I mentioned before Moore seems to be very knowledgeable and like certain things. He is taking ideas he likes somewhere else and incorporating them into his work. I know he wanted to work In Harm's Way into a scifi movie and Battlestar Galactica was the tool. In a sense this is kind of like Larson doing the Dirty Dozen or Patton or Midway into TOS. Moore appears to have a vast knowledge of Battlestar Galactica including small details. I think he is not so much wanting to copy Galactica TOS but is captivated by many of the concepts introduced in TOS and to a lesser extent BG80. He has mined these concepts for the mini and probably the series. In some cases he has taken large overt parts of TOS, in others he has taken small concepts that were introduced but never expanded and made them into larger themes of his show.

I think if you took three fans of TOS and asked them to remake Battlestar Galactica, one would say I wouldn't change a thing, one would try to fix minor things or alter a part like Carillon in SOASW, and a third would change a lot but still be inspired by the original. They would all be fans, have different feelings to the source material, and a different end product. I think the purist is man number one and Ron Moore is man number 3 but most of us are that man in the middle. That's my take on Ron Moore.

[Charybdis]

Very astute observations about the original BSG, antelope, it does seem to offer much to many different viewpoints, which is why we didn't need a remake at all...

[thomas7g]

I'm number 2.

I would love to give Larson a team of special effects artist and add new scenes to replace all the stock footage. And to re-edit as much as possible to make the stories stronger to overcome the speed the shows had to be written. And make a Criterion Director's cut.

[kingfish]

Originally Posted by thomas7g

I'm number 2.

I would love to give Larson a team of special effects artist and add new scenes to replace all the stock footage. And to re-edit as much as possible to make the stories stronger to overcome the speed the shows had to be written. And make a Criterion Director's cut.

Hatch offered to do this. They accepted one day and turned him down the next.

[repcisg]

Lets not forget Adama watches his son killed during the initial attack, his frustration at the presidents blindness to the situation and the loss of his wife. who wouldn't be affected by the loss of nearly half your family. Especially when it was caused by inept political leadership. Adama is human not stone.

[bsg1fan1975]

Adama in Saga of a Star World was going through many human emotions because of the loss of his wife and youngest child as well as being a leader of the remanents of the human race. Remember that he almost gave up command because of the overwhelming regret that he had because he could not save everyone that had survived the destruction of their colonies.

[Dawg]

I've been waiting to see what everyone else thinks of this, too, before I dumped my 2 cubits into the mix - with the comments I'm sure you've all come to expect from me.



Sorry, Antelope, although I know you want us to draw parallels and conclude that Billy is Adama, I still don't see it.

Point of fact: at the beginning of Saga, Adama's was a complete, loving family of husband and wife, 2 sons and a daughter.

Point of fact: in the mini, Billy's years-ago divorced, and his surviving son (the other having died a significant time before) is estranged.

Point of fact: Adama's a seasoned warrior-priest, risen to command a ship-of-the-line by merit.

Point of fact: Billy's on the tail end of a nondescript, mostly (if not entirely) non-combat career - and probably wouldn't know the inside of a chapel if he were locked into one.

In a matter of hours, Adama experiences - and expresses - the anguish of losing his younger son and beloved wife to a sneak attack, one he felt he should have been able to foresee and thwart.

Billy... well, since his expression and delivery never changes in all four hours, you never really know if he experiences anquish. He certainly didn't lose any family in the attack (granted, Lee's disposition is unknown for a time, but that's beside the point).

Adama also experiences survivor's guilt. No such expressions by the end of the mini.

In the privacy of his surviving family and closest friends, Adama expresses the guilt, remorse, and uncertainty any human would feel under the circumstances.

But you missed something important, Antelope. And that's the fact that despite the emotions of the moment, the anquish, guilt and all-too-human desire to hide, Adama rose to the challenge and became the leader the fleet needed.

You'll say Billy did the same thing; I disagree because we never saw him go through the emotional upheaval Adama went through. He didn't lose his closest family - the ones gone were already gone at the time of the attack.

And, at the end, Billy lied. Flat-out, bald-faced lied. Something an honorable man like Adama would not have considered doing - and didn't do, but managed to bring hope to the people he led anyway.

There is no comparison.

I am
Dawg

[Winemaster]

Could you not argue that TOS Adama was a bit passive-agressive. (ie he was forbidden to lauch vipers by the President but defied him by ordering a "battle drill".

[kingfish]

Mini Adama is better than tos Adama for the following reasons:

He mutters his lines like he is sleepwalking through the show and has no passion for the part he is playing.

Mini Adama loves to lie. What they heck, they need something to go on for.

He fist fights a Cylon and is almost choked to death for his troubles. Maybe they wouls have put Tom Zarek in command and we could possibly like the show because Richard Hatch is in it.


Kingfish smashes himself upside the head for even considering mini Adama. Must be the stress, gotta be.

Well I will take Ponderosa Adama any day of the fracking week. Just watch Greene's performance. It moves you. Watch Greene and Hatch interact on the original series, it isn't wooden.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by Winemaster1

Could you not argue that TOS Adama was a bit passive-agressive. (ie he was forbidden to lauch vipers by the President but defied him by ordering a "battle drill".

No, you could not argue that.



He did not launch vipers. He called a battlestations drill. No vipers were launched, so he did not defy the President. He went right up to the line the President drew, to be sure, but there was no defiance there.

Nothing passive-aggressive about that.

I am
Dawg

[thomas7g]

Oh I think he stepped over the line on that one. Had it been simply outlaw traffic and not the Cylons, and if word of the drill ever reached the presiden'ts ears, Adama would have got his six shined.

It was a flimsy excuse. But it was inconceivable NOT to have the vipers ready. Being a military man he respected the chain of command and the orders given...but then he knew he had to take some precautions.

[justjackrandom]

Dawg, I agree that there is no real parallel in the characters. However, I have to pick nits here a bit...

Originally Posted by Dawg

Point of fact: at the beginning of Saga, Adama's was a complete, loving family of husband and wife, 2 sons and a daughter.

We are dealing with the destruction of millions in less than an hour. The destruction of the family is a fairly heavy-handed literary device to make it more personal. On the upside, it highlights the strength of the character.

Originally Posted by Dawg

Point of fact: Adama's a seasoned warrior-priest, risen to command a ship-of-the-line by merit.

Point of fact: Billy's on the tail end of a nondescript, mostly (if not entirely) non-combat career - and probably wouldn't know the inside of a chapel if he were locked into one.

While a great deal can be inferred from the circumstances of each show, we don’t KNOW that about either of them. Indeed, I didn't get that at all from mini.

Originally Posted by Dawg

In a matter of hours, Adama experiences - and expresses - the anguish of losing his younger son and beloved wife to a sneak attack, one he felt he should have been able to foresee and thwart.

Billy... well, since his expression and delivery never changes in all four hours, you never really know if he experiences anquish. He certainly didn't lose any family in the attack (granted, Lee's disposition is unknown for a time, but that's beside the point).

As you pointed out, mini-Adama does not lose anyone immediately close. Besides, people handle stress differently. Mini-Adama reminds me more of some of the fire fighters at ground zero on 9/11. As actors, the two men also come from different generations and different schools of thought.

Originally Posted by Dawg

Adama also experiences survivor's guilt. No such expressions by the end of the mini.

Different time frames. Still not sure mini-Adama would, but the comparison is not really valid.

Originally Posted by Dawg

And, at the end, Billy lied. Flat-out, bald-faced lied. Something an honorable man like Adama would not have considered doing - and didn't do, but managed to bring hope to the people he led anyway.

TOS Adama did lie, through subterfuge, and it saved his people. He is a strong man of principal and honor, but he’s not blindly idealistic or stupid. And even if he hadn’t been a zealot, he would have come up with something to give his people hope, which he understood was most important at that moment.

Mini-Adama did the same thing. The difference is in their faith, which really goes to the cultures they are each from, which are very different.

I agree there can be no comparison, but not simply because the characters are so different. The vehicles they are working in are so completely different, there is no real point.

Apples to oranges...

my 2p
JJR

[peter noble]

Originally Posted by justjackrandom

TOS Adama did lie, through subterfuge, and it saved his people. He is a strong man of principal and honor, but he’s not blindly idealistic or stupid. And even if he hadn’t been a zealot, he would have come up with something to give his people hope, which he understood was most important at that moment.

When did he lie Not in the programme I've watched for 26 years he didn't!

Peter

[justjackrandom]

Peter,

Webster defines “lie” two ways:
1) to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2) to create a false or misleading impression

Adama’s subterfuge to both get a squadron of Vipers down to the surface of Carrilon, and his replacement of warriors with clerks and mechanics in uniforms for the celebration, both in defiance of council orders I might add, certainly qualifies.

His calling for a "battle stations drill" at Cimtar is skirting the line pretty close.

The Magnificent Warriors is practically built around Adama having to deceive Belloby. He does it poorly, but he does it nonetheless.

And let’s not forget that he ordered Tigh to lie for him to Count Iblis.

I’m not trying to impugn the character in any way; he is one of my heroes. Nor am I saying he wasn’t right to do any of this, but do it he did, and in doing so, he was lying.

JJR

[peter noble]

I think I was responding to the Adama in Saga primarily.

In no way does he lie about Earth or where Earth might be, in his speech after the assembling of the rag tag fleet he pretty much lays it on the line and they follow his plan because no one's got an alternative (except Sire Uri later on, which to put it mildly isn't viable!) and he's the commander of the fleet, president, leader of the last remnants of humanity.

Also I think employing subterfuge to fool an enemy to gain a tactical advantage and potentially NOT exterminate you is pretty much not a lie.

Calling battle stations drill also isn't a lie, he's the commander of a battlestar, he can call a battle stations drill whenever the hell he likes.

The Siress Belloby thing could be construed as a lie I think, but I'd just point out who seems to be on the wrong side of it from the get go!

Lying to a being who is the devil incarnate and wants to posess everyone's soul. Yep, I'll allow that one as well.

I don't think at any point in the series does Adama put himself or his personal needs before anyone else's in the entire series.

He's a man of moral fortitude, a kind and loving father/grandfather/friend/subsitute father/father figure who is noble and true. And they couldn't have picked a better person to play him than Lorne Greene!

Peter

[thomas7g]

I think there is some similarities to comparing Commander Sisko to James T Kirk here. Not in regardes to lying...but in how they think.

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by peter noble

In no way does he lie about Earth or where Earth might be, in his speech after the assembling of the rag tag fleet he pretty much lays it on the line and they follow his plan because no one's got an alternative

Agreed, but remember that when comparing the motivations between the two figures that TOS Adama knows that their ancestors came from “out there”. It is in their recorded histories. Yes, earth is only known from the most ancient writings, but those writings are still history. This is a concrete hope. In the mini, this is presented no longer as history, but religion…not fact, but faith. He has to give them something more, even if he has to lie to do it.

Originally Posted by peter noble

Also I think employing subterfuge to fool an enemy to gain a tactical advantage and potentially NOT exterminate you is pretty much not a lie.

I certainly think it is a justifiable and warranted action, but it is still a lie.

Originally Posted by peter noble

Calling battle stations drill also isn't a lie, he's the commander of a battlestar, he can call a battle stations drill whenever the hell he likes.

Well, yes…but he specifically did it at that time to skirt a direct order not to go to battle stations (actually not to launch…but the assumption is that they would need to go to battle stations first). A necessary course of action to combat bureaucratic B.S., and totally justifiable, but still a misrepresentation of what the actual intentions were.

Originally Posted by peter noble

I don't think at any point in the series does Adama put himself or his personal needs before anyone else's in the entire series.

He's a man of moral fortitude, a kind and loving father/grandfather/friend/subsitute father/father figure who is noble and true. And they couldn't have picked a better person to play him than Lorne Greene!

Agree on both points 100 percent, and was never stating or implying otherwise. I am simply pointing out that circumstances warranted his skirting of the truth on occasion, and the fact that he did do so.

JJR

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by thomas7g

I think there is some similarities to comparing Commander Sisko to James T Kirk here. Not in regardes to lying...but in how they think.

Besides the fact that those characters are from the same milieu, I would have to agree that it is a fair analogy. Not just as far as the nature of the characters, but also the fact that the acting styles, the time period, and the nature of television in their respective time periods create differences.

JJR

I am not making an attempt to say mini Adama is better or worse than TOS Adama. I think they are both great characters. My main point in this thread was to express how much better and how things make so much more sense with those extra scenes. The story of Adama as he deals with his own human weakness on his way to command was very gripping.

I did see some themes that Moore may (I say may) have pulled when making his version. Whether those themes were pulled, coincidence or universal I won't debate because none of us can say for sure.

In reference to Dawg's observations I would just make two points about William Adama. Throughout the mini until the last few minutes, Adama is basically thrusted into a combat role. He is reacting as a military commander. We have not had the luxury yet to figure out what is or is not going through his mind. How he handles the loss and situation as a human being is yet to be told if it is even going to happen.

A lot is made about Adama's lie about Earth. I would say that at this point the only person Adama told that he doesn't know where Earth is, is President Roslin. We do not know at this point for sure why he made that statement to her. Since we have the human-cylon situation on board Adama may or may not trust Roslin. Whether his statement was a lie or a test we do not know. Adama may be telling Roslin the honest truth or it may be an excuse not to reveal what he believes to be Earth's coordinates. It may be a way for him to gain control of Roslin in the future by making her a party to his story ---we stand or hang together.

At this point in the show (mini/SOASW) either Adama could have been making up the Earth scenario for hope. We know Adama was telling the truth and sincere in later episodes. It also may be that a current audience would be less willing to believe a leader would sell the population on a quest to a mythological location. In the mini they are bound to a real location publically but the myth is the private reality. In a sense we have a more realistic but similar story as we had with TOS.

[BST]

Originally Posted by justjackrandom

Well, yes…but he specifically did it at that time to skirt a direct order not to go to battle stations (actually not to launch…but the assumption is that they would need to go to battle stations first). A necessary course of action to combat bureaucratic B.S., and totally justifiable, but still a misrepresentation of what the actual intentions were.


JJR

JJR,

Strong disagreement on this one. It is NOT a lie, for the Commander to have called a battle stations drill, given that the President's SPECIFIC order was to NOT LAUNCH. Under these circumstances, the Commander was permitted to carry out his responsibilities up to contradicting or violating the President's order. One of those responsibilities was to ensure the battle readiness of his troops. The battle stations drill accomplished that. Upon further review of those scenes, you would see clearly that it was President Adar's "advisor", Baltar, who was lying, not Adama.

Note: Adama would have been lying if he had said that the President ok'd the battle stations drill. The President only said that Adama did not have permission to launch the vipers.

[Winemaster]

When the order was given Adama and Tigh had smirks on their faces showing they were being naughty. They knew whay they were doing was going against the intent of the Presidents order.
It was necesary but they knew they were using the exercise to counter "Presidential Stupidity".

[BST]

Originally Posted by Winemaster1

When the order was given Adama and Tigh had smirks on their faces showing they were being naughty. They knew whay they were doing was going against the intent of the Presidents order.

I disagree. The "intent" of the President's order was to disallow the launch request. Period. He didn't say or allude to anything else. Adama didn't lie or disobey any order when he ordered the battle stations drill. It would have been the same as if he had told the flight crews to fuel and arm the Vipers.

Originally Posted by Winemaster1

It was necesary but they knew they were using the exercise to counter "Presidential Stupidity".

:laugh: Agreed.

[thomas7g]

They were just stretching the truth.

[The Terran]

Not so much stretching but being economical with it

Ultimately in the mini-series mini-series Adam is in a combat mode for the entire time. In not reacting much to the assumed loss of his son I took it to be the mark of a seasoned professional soldier.

[martok2112]

Hello, all,

I have only read part of this thread...and I love the thoughtful discussion thus far that has gone into it. So, with this caveat, I apologize if I have repeated anyone else's views in this thread.

Commander Adama as played by Lorne Greene was a spiritual leader as well as a military commander. He is war weary, but cynical. He and few others were not entirely lulled by the Cylons' suit for peace. His cynicism paid off somewhat. At least Galactica survived because of his concerns...as did many fighter pilots from other battlestars that landed aboard the Galactica after the destruction of their own baseships.

Greene's Adama was also not entirely passive. His reaction to Baltar's entrance when they entered a tomb of Kobol was hardly that of a spiritual leader, and more that of a betrayed military leader.

Commander William Adama as portrayed by Edward James Olmos is straight up a "no apologies" military commander. He possessed foresight and pragmatism...thus, for one thing, no networked computers aboard the Galactica. He was a take charge kind of guy. Whatever of the Colonial fleet was left, he took command after the death of Admiral N'galla and the destruction of the Battlestar Atlantia.

I think Olmos' Adama only lied to President Laura Roslin. It is very ambiguous as to whom he truly lied to. In either case, he did succeed in doing the very thing that military commanders must do in times of war: Inspire his men and women to strive toward their goal.

Olmos' Adama did not have the luxury of time to fully emote over the thought that he also lost Apollo. He took a moment to grieve, supported by Colonel Tigh, but he realized that he had bigger concerns...getting the Galactica to Ragnar Anchorage.

Truthfully, I get chills up my spine everytime I hear William Adama's "So Say We All" speech. If I were a soldier, needing inspiration from my commander, I could think of no better way to get whipped into shape than to be given a reality check by my commander, and then told that there is hope afterall.

Greene's and Olmos' Adamas are both very compelling characters in their own right. I respect both portrayals immensely.

Respectfully to all,
martok2112

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by BST

Strong disagreement on this one. It is NOT a lie, for the Commander to have called a battle stations drill, given that the President's SPECIFIC order was to NOT LAUNCH. Under these circumstances, the Commander was permitted to carry out his responsibilities up to contradicting or violating the President's order. One of those responsibilities was to ensure the battle readiness of his troops. The battle stations drill accomplished that. Upon further review of those scenes, you would see clearly that it was President Adar's "advisor", Baltar, who was lying, not Adama.

Note: Adama would have been lying if he had said that the President ok'd the battle stations drill. The President only said that Adama did not have permission to launch the vipers.

BST,

You make your point well. I will concede that the action is more in line with pushing the boundaries of disobedience than it is the boundaries of truth. Consider me swayed on this one.

JJR