Kara Thrace - Starbuck or Sheba?

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by julix

I have to say well said Eric and BST............Antelope, Most of us die-hard Tos fans were not upset at female warriors because as you said there were strong female warriors/characters in TOS. Speaking for me..........what upset me the most is that Ron Moore and the"powers that be" used the BSG name to cash in on the fan base(i.e. ratings) without considering what the majority of that fan base wants. A continuation with as many original actors as possible. I don't see the mini as PC the you did... I see what you are trying to say but I just don't see all the gratuitous sex that way. The original was such a family show. As for Starbuck, and Boomer they were characters I loved and you don't go in and change it to the point they did. It would be like making James T. Kirk a woman or Han Solo a woman etc...........It just isn't the same and it souldn't be messed with as far as I am concerned. I am not a very good writer so this probably isn't comming out good.

You said it quite well, Julix. Dead on.

[thomas7g]

I was amazed that so many TOS fans were upset initially with many PC aspects of the mini like the female President and female warriors when they were all in TOS. It just seems that so many fans who know the episodes backwards and forwards forget whole characters and themes once a name is changed.

huh?

Way off base on this one antelope. One, this show was in no way I can think of "Politically correct". Or more so than the original. Granted there was less male chauvanism. But then you exchanged that for babykilling, sex scenes, and virtual sex. Two, nobody cares if this show is more or less politically correct. That's not what the arguement is about.

[thomas7g]

Even if the miniseries was not named Galactica... Even if there were no vipers or cylons. ..Even if there were no characters named Apollo or Starbuck. ...

Alot of what I don't like has nothing to do with Galactica. I simply did not like Katee Sackhoff. Forgeting completely that her character has anything to do with Starbuck, I simply did not like her. The performance was abrasive. I would not have liked any character like that character no matter what the show I was watching. Same with Lee Adama. Same with Tigh. And Six.

And I could tell from all that was leaked, from the scripts, from every step along the way that they were making the kinds of characters that have low appeal to me.


Somewhere along the way the creators of the show started to claim how great their show was, and if anyone don't like it there is something wrong with them. That is an absolutely insulting. The problem is NOT with us. THEY gave us something that we didn't like then had the arrogance to call us names cause we didn't like it!


They should have hired a decent director. Not the guys who did Queen of the Damned. They should have given us more reason to like these guys. ... And there are a lot more problems, but well.. I don't want to bash.

[thomas7g]

Originally Posted by BST

Finally, antelope, if the Moore show pleases you and if you enjoy drawing parallels between it and TOS, by all means, more power to you. However, I think that it's a bit presumptious and unfair of you to paint those who disliked the show with such a broad brush of intolerance or close-mindedness. We simply did not enjoy the show -- there are many reasons for this. We have only touched on a few in this thread.

BST

I agree with that too. Both in supporting Antelope and that its unfair andincorrect to say there is something with us as to why we didn't like the show. Frankly the problem was in the production.

Or simply the miniseries didn't please alot of people.

[julix]

Thanks senmut for your comment. I appreciate it! It was after my night shift that I wrote my other comments and forgot one of my most important points. If the premise was that Ron Moore and Company put in a female Starbuck and Boomer to be PC or "forward thinking, updated" then I as a woman am insulted. TOS was right on in the way most of my ideals as a woman are...i.e. assertive, feminine, strong, and curageous. The women in the mini were my idea of a certain type of man's(all you good guys this excludes you) view on presenting a PC woman.

Take Katee portrayal of Starbuck....that is,in the writing it was only a female version of Starbuck and not in a way I feel is MY ideal strong woman. In fact it reminded me of a Video I saw by Pink called "I am trouble" where she is this brash drinking hard #$@ kicking butt. Not that that isn't cool at times just not MY idea of a strong independant woman. And not someting I could relate to. When Dirk brought Starbuck to life he was lovable, flawed and like so many men I know and sometimes loved. A woman doing those same things didn't fit for me. Again, I am not saying there is anything wrong with a woman acting or being like that it just not what I feel the standard the TOS had.

As for the other women(except for the lady who portrayed the president) it was all pretty much all gratitutious sex and brought to mind shadows of women as sex objects(again there is a time and a place )

BTW nothing against any of the actors in the mini..it is a job and they are I am sure doing the best they can



Julix

[PlaidSquadron]

Originally Posted by antelope526

How about the original question?

OK. I am not nearly as knowlegeable on either series as most of the other posters. But I will take a cut at your original post., and give yoiu my impressions

But first, let me give you a story from my personal background. When I was in high school, ny English teacher said "All Western literaute can be traced tio the Passion of Christ in the Bible. They all contain a Christ-figure, who gives up something important for the greater good. They contain a Judas figure who causes harm to the Christ-figure, even if unintended. And other figures, Peter, Mary, Pilate, etc are all represented somewhere. " We spen the better part of the year finding these characters in everything: Steven Crane's short story "The Open Boat. Novels like Hawthorne's "Scarlett Letter and William Gerald Golding's "Lord of the Flies" were given similar treatment by the instructor. Like any good high-schooler, us students took it much further. We found minor passion players (no pun intended ) like Barabbas in books like "The Hitch Hikers Guide" and Caiphus in comic books like "Spider-Man"

How this story applies here, is to say "Yes. You have hit on a few characteristics of both characters that are similar." But to say it was intentional is a bit of a stretch.

I am not cannonizing the TOS characters, nor demonizing the mini characters. When reduced to a very low level, almost any two characters can be linked, but that does not mean one is based on the other.

Personally, I am abivelent towards the mini. It wasn't great and it wasn't horrible. But I do believe that RDM took the names of a few charaters, added a few visual traits (ala the cigar) and tried to create new characters.

[justjackrandom]

I agree that Antelope may be trying too hard to draw parallels, but that does not mean that he is necessarily incorrect. Although I do not think that G03’s Starbuck was drawn from Sheba (I follow your reasoning, Antelope, but I think it’s a stretch…), there may in fact be more parallels than some would like to admit.

As one of the few (at least that I have found) who is legitimately a fan of both, I can see the appeal of trying to make deeper comparisons that the obvious. I would gently suggest, however, that this might not be the best forum for that kind of exercise. Antelope, there is an e-group that might be better suited. E-mail me if you are interested.

As for not liking the new mini on its own merits, I can see it as a viable opinion, although I have not met many who were fans of the original and liked it, or who were not fans of the original and didn’t like it. Given the contentious nature of the old vs. new debate over the last several years, it is a natural conclusion that those who have strong opinions against the new series are strong fans of the original, and that that is the reason they dislike the new one. It is difficult to see that they might not like the mini on its own merits, even if they are not fans of the original. And unfair assumption, perhaps, but one supported by years of heated debate.

Finally, I thought I would weigh in on Sackhoff as Starbuck: Would I have preferred a man in the role? Probably… the “Goose” and “Maverick” dynamic is a great one. But having seen her in the role, I was actually impressed. Her acting was a bit uneven at times, but she gives nuances to her delivery of certain scenes that border on greatness. Overall, I really liked the character, and found her to be true (always important in an actor’s performance). I know several women, and am good friends with two, who share traits with Sackhoff’s portrayal (one is so much like her it was a twilight zone moment when watching the mini).

My 2p

JJR

[julix]

Justjack....
I am probably stating the obvious to you here but just because people are fans of the original doesn't mean they are not open-minded. It also doesn't mean we disliked the mini BECAUSE we are TOS fans. Heated debates may have proven this to you but not to me....I didn't like the mini for several resons some of which I have already stated. I do think as I have said Ron Moore and Company cashed in on the name and fan base. I believe ratings were high for the mini because a good number of TOS fans tuned in to see what was up(that is what I did-I wanted to see for myself).

Again, when you take a well loved(As I believe CFF and all the websites dedicated to TOS prove)you just don't go in and Jack(pardon the pun)it all up and switch the characters around. Ron Moore could have done his show and call it something else but he didn't and you know why.

Thanks for all the responses. I enjoy reading all views. Remember my original question was directed mainly to mini-fans (in short supply this week) but most of my responses have been replies to the kind TOS only fans that joined the conversation. Things have been slow lately on the actual Battlestar discussion so at least this opened a little extra discussion. Here's my thoughts on a few things said since my last post:

On is it important to see the TOS theme in the mini?: At least for me I loved TOS and hope the TOS themes are found in Moore's universe. I currently do see some although not all TOS themes in Moore's universe. I can also enjoy the Moore universe in its own right if its good. I liked the mini and hope for the new series.

I used the term "many" not all TOS only fans when I referenced the female President and warrior issues. I am specifically not painting with a broad brush. However I stand by the fact that "MANY" TOS only fans posted they disliked the mini for concepts that were in TOS, in particular those two items.

Religion: There is more reference to religion in the mini than there was in Saga of A Star World. The driving force to the human-cylons seems to be a deep religious belief. Speaking to God and the concept of the soul and who deserves it are in the mini. It may well turn out that in Moore's universe we may again be seeing a war between good and evil with humans and cylons as proxies. Moore is already on record as saying he may have an episode with the ship of light concept. In this area again Moore's universe may be following TOS themes.

Gratuitous Sex: I like most TOS only fans did not like the gratuitous sex in the mini, particularly two of the Cylon 6 - Baltar scenes. I do wonder however if TOS was made today instead of in 1978-1979 if we would have FU-K instead of Frack and would have seen gratuitous sex scenes between Starbuck, Casiopeia, and Athena to name a few. I don't think the gratuitous sex adds to the show but is an unfortunate sign of our times.

Timeless characters: I liked that post. I have read good post before that show that TOS was to some extent a scifi adaptation of the conflict between Egyptian and Roman civilization. I think many stories, Battlestar or otherwise may contain archtypes we can see from story to story. Judas to Baltar being a good point.

I have issues with Kara Thrace. I hope they tone her down. Just when I was finally warming up to her she had that last scene with Colonel Tigh, a definite mistake. I also wasn't thrilled with Sheba as originally in Living Legend but she was toned down and became a good character. I hope for something similar.

Blended charcter: Kara may be a blend of Starbuck and Sheba. Moore does blended characters from inspiration. If you follow the scene similarities between "In Harm's Way" and the mini you may have noticed that many of the lifted scenes involving Kara Thrace were scenes where she alternately played the male role of LT McConnel and also the female role of Mrs. McConnel. Maybe Moore is trying to shoe horn Starbuck and Sheba into one character at least to start. I think it would be a bit better to the audience if they toned down the poor Starbuck apeage and turned up the later demure Sheba.

Thanks to everyone. No slight meant if any took it that way.

P.S.: Most mini fans are TOS fans! That is why I like the term TOS only fans as opposed to mini-haters and the term TOS/mini fans. It reminds us all that we are still on the same team with different preferences and persceptives. Beauty is still in the eye of the beholder.

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by julix

I am probably stating the obvious to you here but just because people are fans of the original doesn't mean they are not open-minded. It also doesn't mean we disliked the mini BECAUSE we are TOS fans.

Not disagreeing with you Julix (love that callsign BTW). As I said, it is an unfair assumption. Yet it is a strong perception that exists, and one that will be difficult to shake.

Originally Posted by julix

Again, when you take a well loved(As I believe CFF and all the websites dedicated to TOS prove)you just don't go in and Jack(pardon the pun)it all up and switch the characters around. Ron Moore could have done his show and call it something else but he didn't and you know why.

And one reason the perception exists is comments like this. I am sure you have other reasons for not liking the mini, and would not have liked it even if it was named something else, with different character names, different designs, etc. Yet this statement makes it seem that you don’t like it just because it is a remake that they “reimagined”, regardless of its merits (or lack thereof) as a production.

Again, my tuppence

JJR

[Eric Paddon]

"Religion: There is more reference to religion in the mini than there was in Saga of A Star World"

Antelope, here you are twisting the comparison to shoehorn your argument. Religion, as it is depicted in the *entire* original series is what you should be using to form your comparison (and considering how earlier you have been trying to insist the miniseries is borrowing characters and elements from post-Saga episodes, it's not being consistent for you to suddenly reverse course and use only Saga to form your religion comparison). When that happens, what we are left with is (1) TOS presents religion in a positive light and (2) the miniseries depicts it in a negative light.

"The driving force to the human-cylons seems to be a deep religious belief."

Yeah, the religious beliefs of the *Cylons* which has nothing to do with the original and is nothing more than Ron Moore reflecting the attitude of modern Hollywood that religious faith is solely for the fanatical extremists. And the Stardoe "prayer" sequence is not a valid counterargument because my recollection is (1) Moore added that scene afterwards when he began to get criticized for his anti-religion tone and (2) that scene doesn't ultimately show religion positively since it's done by the most dislikable character in the Fleet and demonstrates that being sincere in one's faith and letting it define one's life like Adama in TOS did with his, is lacking in Stardoe.

Adama's vision for Earth is tied to genuine faith. Fake Adama's lie is tied to the idea that religious beliefs that society needs to keep it going are ultimately the lies of devious people, which is the mindset of an anti-religious perspective that Moore clearly possesses. Having Adama "lying" was not necessary for any reason but to make an anti-religious point.

[julix]

Justjack....
It is true I didn't like the fact that they "reimagined" BSG and I will stand by that forever.....I watched the mini with an open mind and didn't like it. I will explain some reasons in a minute. I simply stated, I feel and believe a lot of people(hope I am not overstating this)who are TOS fans were unhappy and didn't like the mini because it messed with our well loved characters. TOS wasn't perfect but it was loved. And you are going to get obvious comparisons when you "reimagine" something. Again, I feel I am repeating myself which is why I left it they way I did in my last post...But Imagine if after Star Wars(IV) someone other then Lucas came in reimagined it and made lets say Chewie a woman...I know this is silly and not a real comparison but you get my point.

And, you are wrong I may well have liked the mini called something else. One, I love scifi and there are very few shows(also the ratings draw for the mini)Two, I did think there were individual acting performances that were good in spots(ones that really showed the actors talent)So you shouldn't judge me on that point it is indeed unfair.

I didn't like the mini because .....I didn't like, nor buy the relationships in it(this may evolve) but in the mini that was my main problem. When I enjoy a movie or show it is usually about the character development and relationships between them. The relationship between Adama and Lee Adama just didn't fit for me. It wasn't because it was unlike the original it just wasn't well written/developed. I again mentioned gratitous sex as a big problem as well as a real sense of superficiality. This may be a sign of our times as antelope says but I don't think it has to be!

What does tuppence mean?

[PlaidSquadron]

Originally Posted by julix

What does tuppence mean?

If I may....

"tuppence" is (I think) Victorian English slang (though it might still be in use) for Two pence. Essentially two cents

[julix]

Oh yeah thanks plaid................