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Old August 29th, 2019, 09:54 PM   #1
Lighthope
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Default How did Iblis control Baltar?

So if Iblis could only control those who gave themselves willingly to him, how was Iblis able to control Baltar into surrendering? Baltar clearly never met Iblis. He had no idea who he was.

I am not going to buy the notion that Iblis was the Imperious Leader. Aside from being the voice, there is no evidence to suggest Iblis was the IL. The Imperious Leader is capable of being destroyed and changing his mind. Also, if Iblis was to suffer a penalty for killing Apollo who had not given himself to Iblis, how could Iblis as the IL get away with the destruction of the Colonies who also had not given themselves to him.

Whew, okay, that went on longer than planned.
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Old August 29th, 2019, 10:51 PM   #2
Eric Paddon
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Default Re: How did Iblis control Baltar?

It's not that Iblis is the Imperious Leader, but that Iblis in effect gave birth to the Cylon race a thousand yahrens ago by using his powers to bring about the downfall of the reptilian Cylons and the rise of the robotic Cylons. And so his voice was used for all of the Imperious Leaders. That's the key point in the dialogue exchange in Baltar's cell. Iblis is revealed to have been the creator of the Cylons as we know them (he likely used another form when he brought down the original Cylon race).

As to his ability to compel Baltar, some have suggested that it was the SOL that compelled Baltar's surrender and not Iblis. Though that idea was I think in the initial version of WOTG that wasn't factoring in the deeper connection of Iblis to the Cylons, which it has to be acknowledged came about solely because Larson decided to capitalize on the fact that he'd gotten Patrick Macnee for this part. If any other actor had been cast in the role....this vital piece of backstory in the history of the Cylons would never have existed in the series.

If Iblis is in effect the founder of the Cylon race who has perhaps by extension the power to compel the Cylons to obey him (I have always wondered what happened to the Baseship after Baltar surrendered. Where did it go? To me, the answer might lie in Iblis using his own power to "remove" the Baseship from the vicinity lest it interfere with his plans for the Galactica at this point) then perhaps because Baltar has made himself a Cylon during this time, Iblis has some "control" of sorts over him?
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Old August 30th, 2019, 07:29 PM   #3
Lighthope
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Default Re: How did Iblis control Baltar?

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Originally Posted by Eric Paddon View Post
It's not that Iblis is the Imperious Leader, but that Iblis in effect gave birth to the Cylon race a thousand yahrens ago by using his powers to bring about the downfall of the reptilian Cylons and the rise of the robotic Cylons. And so his voice was used for all of the Imperious Leaders. That's the key point in the dialogue exchange in Baltar's cell. Iblis is revealed to have been the creator of the Cylons as we know them (he likely used another form when he brought down the original Cylon race).
I don't recall that being in the dialogue. Baltar simply recognizes Iblis as the voice of the IL. There is a further exchange about how Iblis could have been there so long ago, but nothing along the lines of Iblis arranging the downfall of the Lizard Cylons or anything like that.
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Old August 30th, 2019, 09:00 PM   #4
Eric Paddon
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Default Re: How did Iblis control Baltar?

Actually there is. This is how the dialogue goes.

"I remember that voice. The voice of the Cylon Imperious Leader."
"The Cylon's a machine."
"Yes, now. But once they were a race of beings who allowed themselves to be overcome by their own technology."
"And when did this happen?"
"A thousand yahrens ago. At the onset of the Thousand-Yahren War against the humans."
"And in order for my voice to be that of the Imperious Leader, it would have to have been recorded and transcribed into the machine leader, a thousand yahrens ago. I would have to be a thousand yahrens old!"

The last point is the key. Iblis is superficially putting Baltar down but at the same time he is telling him the truth of what happened. And how this happened at the time the original race of Cylons was overcome by their technology. The technology that overcomes them then creates a machine Imperious Leader with Iblis's voice as the standard, which suggests a devotion or tribute to the one who made the downfall of the race possible.
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Old September 4th, 2019, 09:52 PM   #5
Senmut
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Default Re: How did Iblis control Baltar?

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Originally Posted by Lighthope View Post
So if Iblis could only control those who gave themselves willingly to him, how was Iblis able to control Baltar into surrendering? Baltar clearly never met Iblis. He had no idea who he was.

I am not going to buy the notion that Iblis was the Imperious Leader. Aside from being the voice, there is no evidence to suggest Iblis was the IL. The Imperious Leader is capable of being destroyed and changing his mind. Also, if Iblis was to suffer a penalty for killing Apollo who had not given himself to Iblis, how could Iblis as the IL get away with the destruction of the Colonies who also had not given themselves to him.

Whew, okay, that went on longer than planned.
Recall, Baltar is not a man devoted to anything but Baltar. His entire life has been consumed by the insatiable desire for power and wealth. He is shot through with greed, lust, avarice, deception, cruelty, vindictiveness, self-indulgence, pride, and of course, he has a problem telling the truth for five centons at a stretch. Such a person doesn't have to dial up 1-800-EVI-LINC, and conciously sign over to the Dark Side. Baltar was the sort of person already thoroughly inured to evil, it's willing servant, and ripe for Iblis to pick, when the opportunity presented itself. He fell into Iblis' talons exactly when it suited The Dark Lord for him to do so. Baltar had sold out long ago, and wasn't even aware of it.
That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.
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Old September 15th, 2019, 10:57 PM   #6
Lighthope
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Default Re: How did Iblis control Baltar?

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Originally Posted by Eric Paddon View Post
The technology that overcomes them then creates a machine Imperious Leader with Iblis's voice as the standard, which suggests a devotion or tribute to the one who made the downfall of the race possible.
That certainly is a possible explanation as to why Iblis is the voice of the IL.

Quote:
Recall, Baltar is not a man devoted to anything but Baltar. His entire life has been consumed by the insatiable desire for power and wealth. He is shot through with greed, lust, avarice, deception, cruelty, vindictiveness, self-indulgence, pride, and of course, he has a problem telling the truth for five centons at a stretch. Such a person doesn't have to dial up 1-800-EVI-LINC, and conciously sign over to the Dark Side. Baltar was the sort of person already thoroughly inured to evil, it's willing servant, and ripe for Iblis to pick, when the opportunity presented itself. He fell into Iblis' talons exactly when it suited The Dark Lord for him to do so. Baltar had sold out long ago, and wasn't even aware of it.
That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.
Heh.

Okay, that line of reasoning I don't buy. Just because Baltar is lustful to power doesn't automatically place him in the power of Iblis, otherwise any evil person would be at his beck and call. My takeaway on WotG was that it had to be a specific transaction. Your mileage may vary. And since Baltar never made that transaction, I don't see how Iblis could control him to that level. Perhaps as a temptor since Iblis represents the devil, but not to the point of possession-per se.
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