Future Battlestar series/movie- Inspiration from all BSG series

[ray243]

Even though there are fans down here that favours one particular BSG series over another, all series do offer some rather useful and new ideas to BSG in particular.

So, care to share with everyone else here what ideas do you think should be carried over from the 70s version of BSG, and what ideas should be carried over from the 2000s version of BSG?

For me, it would be the darkness of the nBSG series in certain key episodes, and the brightness of the old series for other key episodes.

[WarMachine]

1. I'm actually okay with the GINO 'gator, but only if they state clearly that it is a new, "latest-n-greatest" design - don't change the core ship.

Ever.

2. Lose the costuming house known as JCPenny's - these people are from a TOTALLY different culture, and its pretty insulting to see "Melrose Place In SPAAAAACE" forced down your throat by hacks with no sense of direction or imagination.

3. Hummers...Do I REALLY need to say anything else? Okay - if you don't have a prop-shop that can actually build different-looking guns and vehicles...FIND ONE.

4. Politics: See #2 -- there is a pointed religio-political viewpoint that makes the Galactica 'verse unique. It's not about a culture rediscovering its faith, but about a mature, theocratic/aristocratic society -- simply rewriting the politics of Republican vs Democrat is a sure sign of typewriter hacks too lazy to think.

5. "Dark" is one thing -- screaming, mind-numbing, suicidal hell is something quite different. REAL writers are able to get the "dark" across without gratuitous blood and gore: rewatch "Saga", at the point where The Trio are inspecting the first ship - Apollo: "Yeah - I know."

6. No. More. Westerns.

7. No more situational ethics.


That's my start.

[monolith21]

I think in the interest of both fandoms...stay away from Gino. It will get them in an uproar to use stuff from their show, and it won't do the rest of us any favors either. Original, Singer/DeSanto stuff...great!

[KJ]

Agreed!

Also its CF policy and part of the rules not to bring up NuBSG/Gino deliberately. We tend to do so only by accident or in partial reference but thats usually to make a point only. Not to actually go there and bring up Sci-Fi Channel/Skiffy's version on purpose. Similar to what Monolith says, you've got the following examples to use though....

Inspirations for a future Battlestar Galactica movie/series

1) Hatch's BSG:The Second Coming.

2) Larson's Battlestar Atlantis (despite its sparce info).

3) Singer/DeSanto's 2001 BSG Revival attempt.

4) BSG Video Game [design/concepts/prequel story]. (Barring the end cutscene of course?)

5) Battlestar Galactica: Comics/Novels and books. i.e. BSG's EU! (Expanded Universe)

6) Extraordinary Fanfics or fanfilm edits!


To fall back on.

The re-imaginning's a no-no on this website!

Yeah the announced movie (far as net rumors and minor news goes) might be going in the re-imaginning direction, but with Singer onboard, and Larson as possible consultant/(low level) producer. That might change, with Singer's healthy respect for franchises. We just don't know yet, whether or not the movie would draw inspiration from or what'll be in the design phase etc.

Given this site's ideal form of respect for the original classic series. Doesn't outwardly make sense to journey back right after the recent skiffy version came to an end and bring that back into the mix or fold of possible scenarios for any future BSG movie/series to go in. No personal bias, just the mere facts of the situation.

Stick with what Monolith above and myself (*5 things on my lists*) have already said! And the ideas will come flowing in, sooner enough.

KJ

[Kronus]

Originally Posted by monolith21

I think in the interest of both fandoms...stay away from Gino. It will get them in an uproar to use stuff from their show, and it won't do the rest of us any favors either. Original, Singer/DeSanto stuff...great!

BANG ON my brother! Could not agree more!

And KJ, thanks for stating that...we do have plenty to work with within the Original BSG and not reference any other groups for inspiration.

[WarMachine]

Well, I will gladly take the hit for bringing that one up - my bad, and apologies. I haven't posted in a while, and was feeling froggy.....

Sorry about the [[UGH!]] ref.....

[Lara]

As I was listening to Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds on the MP3 while at the gym my mind strayed to the storyline's crossover points with TOS.

How some of the scenes hit the same points:

The authoritative narration

the lines from the eve of the war, especially: It seems totally incredible to me now that everyone spent that night as though it was just like any other..

The flight from London, and the boat out of England (including the valiant stand by the Thunderchild)

Lines such as 'never in the history of the world had such a mass of human beings moved and suffered together. This was no disciplined march, it was a stampeded, without order, without a goal. 6 million unarmed and unprovisioned people driving headlong. It was the beginning of the rout of civilization, of the massacre of mankind..'

The parson's wife and the lyrics in the song of the spirit of man: There must be more to life, there has to be a way, that we can restore to life, the light that we have lost... There must be something worth living for, there must be something worth trying for, even somethings worth dying for, somewhere in the spirit of man..

The artillaryman and his underground dream, but hampered by his getting sidetracked with cards and champagne: always reminds me of the fleet falling for Carillon despite their highest intentions of starting fresh elsewhere!

I'm not suggestion any future movie is a musical, but theme like this are 'powerful' when done right and give a story an epic feel, not a 'soapy' one.

I also think an element of narration from an everyman's POV would be an attractive update. Many historic fiction books are written that way now and are very well received as a semi fictional account with a wide readership.

That, and kick arse current SFX

Cheers
Lara

[Athene]

Originally Posted by Kronus

BANG ON my brother! Could not agree more!

And KJ, thanks for stating that...we do have plenty to work with within the Original BSG and not reference any other groups for inspiration.

I also agree!

I really, really like there's plenty to work within Original BSG...and also from the many talented and devoted fans/members here as well...

[tripleasg]

i love the theocratic governing board of the series, council of 12, the "judas" type.
it is so symbolic and also so cool...
in honesty the caliber of acting could improve, the depth of the characters, but don't mess with who's who. i love most of the orginal ships ect, just update the technology, and deepen the story.

[BST]

Originally Posted by KJ

Agreed!

Also its CF policy and part of the rules not to bring up NuBSG/Gino deliberately. We tend to do so only by accident or in partial reference but thats usually to make a point only. Not to actually go there and bring up Sci-Fi Channel/Skiffy's version on purpose. Similar to what Monolith says, you've got the following examples to use though....

Inspirations for a future Battlestar Galactica movie/series

1) Hatch's BSG:The Second Coming.

2) Larson's Battlestar Atlantis (despite its sparce info).

3) Singer/DeSanto's 2001 BSG Revival attempt.

4) BSG Video Game [design/concepts/prequel story]. (Barring the end cutscene of course?)

5) Battlestar Galactica: Comics/Novels and books. i.e. BSG's EU! (Expanded Universe)

6) Extraordinary Fanfics or fanfilm edits!


To fall back on.

The re-imaginning's a no-no on this website!

Yeah the announced movie (far as net rumors and minor news goes) might be going in the re-imaginning direction, but with Singer onboard, and Larson as possible consultant/(low level) producer. That might change, with Singer's healthy respect for franchises. We just don't know yet, whether or not the movie would draw inspiration from or what'll be in the design phase etc.

Given this site's ideal form of respect for the original classic series. Doesn't outwardly make sense to journey back right after the recent skiffy version came to an end and bring that back into the mix or fold of possible scenarios for any future BSG movie/series to go in. No personal bias, just the mere facts of the situation.

Stick with what Monolith above and myself (*5 things on my lists*) have already said! And the ideas will come flowing in, sooner enough.

KJ

Thanks, Jason!

Listen to this man, he speaketh the truth.

Especially about Moore's show being persona non grata at Fleets.


Picking up on another item, yes, it does appear that the "new movie" will reset the clock but, at this point, it hasn't been determined just how far back it will go. Will it be to a time just following the destruction of the Colonies or will the actual attacks be shown? Given Singer's penchant for action, it will likely include the destruction of the Colonies.

At any rate, though, the guiding principles of the new show will be gleaned from TOS and the most important of those will be the concept of "Hope".


There's much to be taken from TOS... don't be afraid to use your imagination.

[KJ]

Originally Posted by ray243

For me, it would be the darkness of the nBSG series in certain key episodes, and the brightness of the old series for other key episodes.

The original show was dark, very dark in terms of starting its pilot off with a interstellar holocaust of 12 worlds (planets). With several main characters being killed off throughout early in the show's run (Zac, Ila [off screen] Serina etc). The original show suffered from network interferences and the usual 70's TV cliches. Had Glen Larson done BG uniquely and kept her flying straight without any interference from any outside source and wasn't bogged down also prepping Buck Rogers for 1979 etc, Galactica would've easily stood the test of time for all these years no doubt as a truly great sci-fi classic.

Not that it doesn't already, just that the road would be alot less *bumpy* is all. And the journey to roads not traveled, alot smoother!

Unlike G.I.N.O. which needed to add and reference out loud; "rape", child prostitution , Sex changes, Skinjob Cylons (WTF?) and grumpy characters, and a whole lot more of questionable changes? [they have "Lightspeed" drives on their starships, but use machine guns and drive humvies around the place?, whats that all about?] and dare call it a darker show cos of those unneeded and poorly written elements!

Nah, stick with the classic show and find darker alternatives!

KJ

[dec5]

THe Anime look of the new BSG (20TH CENTURY GARB mixed with 25th century type tech, worked better, I have to say.) You could even see them doing it in the later part of TOS BSG when they found a cold war type planet who drove cars even then.

It just works better than the Star Trek cheesy like Uniforms...... Though the TOS BSG BMX style boots and gear worked...but the high heels for the female pilots did not.

It was bad as the 7 of 9 high heel look in Voyager.....:lol

The Humvees worked because they just look odd and other worldly. It works just as well as using medival era garb in some fantasy films which usually mix their eras all the time. Blade Runner mixed the 40's look with 21 century tech, and it worked great. The Narnia Movies did it with mixing different era
clothing very well. From Medieval, Greek Mytology, to 16 century type uniforms. All blended well together. IMO.

The closer to reality the better the look. It short, reality is always better
than make believe. Frankly Sci fi and all fantasy stuff really can't compare
to the world we live in now..... :lol Real life seems to be getting more interesting these days too...:lol

Frankly even the new BSG with all it's great imagery and great looking cast, I had a lot of issues with
the constant dark violence that I didn't think was healthy. The TOS BSG had a problem too, of just being
so far removed from the real world that it too didnt seem healthy either. Though I thought the cold war
themes were more on the right track, it was still way too into fantasy instead of really good story telling.
Which BSG seemed to want to focus on: family, faith, and perseverance...

Next time just forget the fantasy,sci-fi, themes, and just stick to a good story...in our time....

That would be original and cheaper to make.

[Dawg]

Then it would not be Battlestar Galactica.

And it would be guilty of being disrespectful of the intelligence and imagination of the audience - that would be you and me - just like others have in recent years.

And it would entirely discard the Battlestar Galactica universe, showing ultimate disrespect for the source material - just like others (in this genre and others) have in recent years.

I'm bright enough to identify with people who don't dress just like I do or speak the same slang I do. I can suspend my disbelief enough to entertain the thought that the human race came from another place, and that this speck of dust in the universe isn't the only place humans live. That those humans don't use the same units of measure, or have a JCPenney store down on the corner to provide them with Towncraft shirts and polyester ties. That they might use something other than US military vehicles, and have technology our scientists today can only theorize about.

It's about storytelling. It's about the ability to make the characters real enough that it doesn't matter if they're wearing Armani or blue hide. I was able to identify with and root for the Na'vi, and they aren't even real, because of the quality of the storytelling. Cameron & company didn't need to dress them up in Levi's and make Pandora look like Los Angeles (or Vancouver) in order to make us identify with them.

Cameron, Singer, and others of that caliber have enough talent and ability that they don't have to resort to cheap tricks to make the audience identify with their characters and their worlds.

And if someone doesn't have the imagination to appreciate that, they have no business buying movie tickets.

I am
Dawg

[KJ]

Originally Posted by dec5

THe Anime look of the new BSG (20TH CENTURY GARB mixed with 25th century type tech, worked better, I have to say.) You could even see them doing it in the later part of TOS BSG when they found a cold war type planet who drove cars even then.

It just works better than the Star Trek cheesy like Uniforms...... Though the TOS BSG BMX style boots and gear worked...but the high heels for the female pilots did not.

It was bad as the 7 of 9 high heel look in Voyager.....:lol

The Humvees worked because they just look odd and other worldly. It works just as well as using medival era garb in some fantasy films which usually mix their eras all the time. Blade Runner mixed the 40's look with 21 century tech, and it worked great. Th

Whoa whats with insulting anime? I may not be into the re-imaginned BG, but anime inspired it ain't regardless of its designs and how or what the concepts were behind the Sci-Fi Channel version redesigns!

Think what you want about Sci-Fi (or is it really spelled out as SyFy now these days?) Channel's BG, and personally i let it fans think of it as they will. But just because you can't see it doesn't mean modern day conveniences or technologies like various transport vehicles and whatnot, need to be in science fiction.

Does Star Wars need a humvie too then? I think not!

But one should appreciate the fact that the classic series was developed out of questions and theories we've always held somewhat about our beginnings/origins, and thus a sci-fi series like the TOS BG had one of the best if not most original concepts for an ongoing series/movie EVER!!!

Which doen't need to be bogged down by our technology or our way of seeing things. Cos out there, fictionally they developed much more differently than we did. So why should we assume today's tech is better than what happens in works of fiction, hasn't science fiction inspired leaps in technology anyhow?

Originally Posted by dec5

The closer to reality the better the look. It short, reality is always better
than make believe. Frankly Sci fi and all fantasy stuff really can't compare
to the world we live in now..... :lol Real life seems to be getting more interesting these days too...:lol

Depends on the KIND sci-fi you'd be watching presently though, to be quite frank, beyond our TOS Battlestar Galactica discussions.

Far as your TOS Star Trek uniforms comment goes. I totally disagree, they were bright and colourful for a multitude of reasons (mainly cos the Networks wanting to show off alot of "colour" in their televison programmes during the 60's), but they've proven to be quite a iconic and classic design of uniform for Trek anyways. And weren't they reused and recently re-imaginned for the 2009 Star Trek movie.

Its an alright film (i don't see it as big as everybody else but it was alright though).

Now name one Sci-fi Programme/movie series thats re-done and gone back to the classic take on their uniforms beyond Star Trek! Not many i guarantee you!

Dawg, excellent last post by yourself.

KJ

[dec5]

Originally Posted by Dawg

Then it would not be Battlestar Galactica.

And it would be guilty of being disrespectful of the intelligence and imagination of the audience - that would be you and me - just like others have in recent years.

And it would entirely discard the Battlestar Galactica universe, showing ultimate disrespect for the source material - just like others (in this genre and others) have in recent years.

I'm bright enough to identify with people who don't dress just like I do or speak the same slang I do. I can suspend my disbelief enough to entertain the thought that the human race came from another place, and that this speck of dust in the universe isn't the only place humans live. That those humans don't use the same units of measure, or have a JCPenney store down on the corner to provide them with Towncraft shirts and polyester ties. That they might use something other than US military vehicles, and have technology our scientists today can only theorize about.

It's about storytelling. It's about the ability to make the characters real enough that it doesn't matter if they're wearing Armani or blue hide. I was able to identify with and root for the Na'vi, and they aren't even real, because of the quality of the storytelling. Cameron & company didn't need to dress them up in Levi's and make Pandora look like Los Angeles (or Vancouver) in order to make us identify with them.

Cameron, Singer, and others of that caliber have enough talent and ability that they don't have to resort to cheap tricks to make the audience identify with their characters and their worlds.

And if someone doesn't have the imagination to appreciate that, they have no business buying movie tickets.

I am
Dawg

They did use US marine uniforms,and 20th century garb for the humans. Even
Cameron seems to be doing what Anime has done for years. The style
and usage of the neck tie look was even used in Aliens.

You might say it was 2001 a space Odyssey that did the same thing.

I have to admit when TNS BSG came out I was really skeptical. I was baffled
that the BSG was going to look like a 1965 US air craft carrier. I wanted the
advanced ancient TOS BSG which fought a 1000 year old war. But when I
saw the final product, I got an idea of what they were doing. Instead of using
the Egyptian style theme.....they used the 1968 style theme mixed with some styles
from the movie 2001. It just worked. It was different from TOS BSG, but it worked.

Originally Posted by KJ

Whoa whats with insulting anime? I may not be into the re-imaginned BG, but anime inspired it ain't regardless of its designs and how or what the concepts were behind the Sci-Fi Channel version redesigns!

Think what you want about Sci-Fi (or is it really spelled out as SyFy now these days?) Channel's BG, and personally i let it fans think of it as they will. But just because you can't see it doesn't mean modern day conveniences or technologies like various transport vehicles and whatnot, need to be in science fiction.

Does Star Wars need a humvie too then? I think not!

But one should appreciate the fact that the classic series was developed out of questions and theories we've always held somewhat about our beginnings/origins, and thus a sci-fi series like the TOS BG had one of the best if not most original concepts for an ongoing series/movie EVER!!!

Which doen't need to be bogged down by our technology or our way of seeing things. Cos out there, fictionally they developed much more differently than we did. So why should we assume today's tech is better than what happens in works of fiction, hasn't science fiction inspired leaps in technology anyhow?



Depends on the KIND sci-fi you'd be watching presently though, to be quite frank, beyond our TOS Battlestar Galactica discussions.

Far as your TOS Star Trek uniforms comment goes. I totally disagree, they were bright and colourful for a multitude of reasons (mainly cos the Networks wanting to show off alot of "colour" in their televison programmes during the 60's), but they've proven to be quite a iconic and classic design of uniform for Trek anyways. And weren't they reused and recently re-imaginned for the 2009 Star Trek movie.

Its an alright film (i don't see it as big as everybody else but it was alright though).

Now name one Sci-fi Programme/movie series thats re-done and gone back to the classic take on their uniforms beyond Star Trek! Not many i guarantee you!

Dawg, excellent last post by yourself.

KJ

Star Wars used 20th century machine guns and modified the look sightly and called them blasters. They based the Jawa Crawler on the NASA rocket transport.
They also based the Jedi garb on Samurai robes and armor. The rebel fighters where based on race cars......

Then there is Firefly and Serenity. Again modern day clothes mixed with civil war
era garb is used. The 1979 movie Alien used baseball caps and old flight suits.

TOS BSG used the BMX biker look for the pilots, and even the filght crew used
20th century type overalls.

Using actual historical styles in scifi is really not a new thing.



This is a pattern in most Scifi movies and shows then and now.


I know where you guys are coming from though.....when I was a kid, I thought BSG was better than Star Wars IMO. At least the 1st 3 or 4 eppys of TOS was the best.
Having the series actually go to Egypt, for shots of the fictional Kobol looked really cool. But after that, to me the original show had a hard time finishing with the same
quality.

BTW:

Ultimately I think even with Avatar, the movie business in theaters is going to
go the way of the 8 track tape. DVD's and downloads are the future.

[KJ]

Originally Posted by dec5

Star Wars used 20th century machine guns and modified the look sightly and called them blasters. They based the Jawa Crawler on the NASA rocket transport.
They also based the Jedi garb on Samurai robes and armor. The rebel fighters where based on race cars......

Then there is Firefly and Serenity. Again modern day clothes mixed with civil war era garb is used. The 1979 movie Alien used baseball caps and old flight suits.

TOS BSG used the BMX biker look for the pilots, and even the filght crew used
20th century type overalls.

Your missing the point of the production team transporting you into another world with their designs, and using real life props. Lets slow down o.k.

Thats what drawing influences are supposed to do, bu they aren't the main focus in terms of there purpose. But overall don't get carried away with that fact nor . Beyond their designs and real life inspirations, the adaptation of the props being kitbashed or clothing isn't meant to represent the actual items you're refering to from real life; as if that was the real intended intention of the writers of the episodes or to draw your eye to soemthing from the 20th century.

And you keep saying the Colonial Warrior pilots look is based on BMX bikers somewhat? Actually you're partially right although its really and that'll be, they're taken from the "Motorcycle" biker dress wear with the boots. And the jackets are kinda based on the U.S. Airforce pilot leather jackets themselves, rather than the formal dress code miltary uniform of navel pilots (i.e. more than one branch 'Armed Forces' air-corp pilots). Even if they're brown coloured in the show, that was their original inspiration they were taken from.

Far as the Jedi reference goes. The look is drawn from the Samurai, but the Jedi Order itself and function, is also based on the 'Knights of the round table' of English lore and legend as well, just so you know.

Originally Posted by dec5

I have to admit when TNS BSG came out I was really skeptical. I was baffled that the BSG was going to look like a 1965 US air craft carrier. I wanted the advanced ancient TOS BSG which fought a 1000 year old war.

You and me both, lol.

Originally Posted by dec5

I know where you guys are coming from though.....when I was a kid, I thought BSG was better than Star Wars IMO. At least the 1st 3 or 4 eppys of TOS was the best. Having the series actually go to Egypt, for shots of the fictional Kobol looked really cool. But after that, to me the original show had a hard time finishing with the same quality.

To me and many others of my generation the same can be said. BG and SW ran neck and neck, kids loved sci-fi in general, there WAS no 'us Vs them' rivally far as entertainment was concerned, and children on the playground always entertained the idea of a crossover between both creations. Its pity today's generation don't see it that way!

George Lucas sure felt threaten by BG though if he had to try and sue Universal (Which he lost!). My only gripe looking back is that John Dykstra fell out with both Lucas then Larson and didn't stick around with neither sci-fi juggernauts which had these all-new fantastic concepts with ground breaking SFX, that he helped develop at the time!

KJ

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by dec5

They did use US marine uniforms,and 20th century garb for the humans. Even
Cameron seems to be doing what Anime has done for years. The style
and usage of the neck tie look was even used in Aliens.

You might say it was 2001 a space Odyssey that did the same thing.

I have to admit when TNS BSG came out I was really skeptical. I was baffled
that the BSG was going to look like a 1965 US air craft carrier. I wanted the
advanced ancient TOS BSG which fought a 1000 year old war. But when I
saw the final product, I got an idea of what they were doing. Instead of using
the Egyptian style theme.....they used the 1968 style theme mixed with some styles
from the movie 2001. It just worked. It was different from TOS BSG, but it worked.




Star Wars used 20th century machine guns and modified the look sightly and called them blasters. They based the Jawa Crawler on the NASA rocket transport.
They also based the Jedi garb on Samurai robes and armor. The rebel fighters where based on race cars......

Then there is Firefly and Serenity. Again modern day clothes mixed with civil war
era garb is used. The 1979 movie Alien used baseball caps and old flight suits.

TOS BSG used the BMX biker look for the pilots, and even the filght crew used
20th century type overalls.

Using actual historical styles in scifi is really not a new thing.



This is a pattern in most Scifi movies and shows then and now.


I know where you guys are coming from though.....when I was a kid, I thought BSG was better than Star Wars IMO. At least the 1st 3 or 4 eppys of TOS was the best.
Having the series actually go to Egypt, for shots of the fictional Kobol looked really cool. But after that, to me the original show had a hard time finishing with the same
quality.

BTW:

Ultimately I think even with Avatar, the movie business in theaters is going to
go the way of the 8 track tape. DVD's and downloads are the future.

No, it's obvious that you don't know where I'm coming from.

Avatar's humans were from Earth. Alien's humans were from Earth. Firefly/Serenity's humans were from Earth. 2001 was about Earth. These movies were set in the future - our future - Earth's future.

Battlestar Galactica is not about Earth, Earth's people, or (except on a most tangential level) Earth's future. Battlestar Galactica asks us to identify with humans that did not grow up on this world, but whose history diverged from ours millennia ago. They are our human brethren, but they are different from us culturally. This difference is depicted by the use of strange units of measure, different nomenclatures, different clothing than you see your friends and neighbors wearing, different technology.

In 1978 the producers gave the audience the benefit of the doubt, that we had the intelligence and the imagination to accept this, and we did.

Pity today's producers don't have the same respect for their audience.

Now, as to the rest:

When a writer or filmmaker designs other universes, certain absolutes apply. For example, you must accommodate the language of the audience. You can't use an alien language without some form of translation into something the viewer understands. That's why foreign films use subtitles, why Star Trek had the Universal Translator, why everyone in Star Wars (except Jabba the Hutt) spoke English.

The same is true of prop and costume design. To use your examples, human weapons are, always have been, and always will be designed to fit the human hand. Therefore, the Star Wars blasters look a lot like pistols and carbines, and the robes are made to fit the human form. Add to this the necessity of a sense of familiarity.

A perfect example of "familiarity" comes from TOS Star Trek, from the first episode (The Man Trap). Seems they were looking for a salt shaker for a scene, and they gathered all sorts of futuristic salt shakers for evaluation. You know what they wound up with? A salt shaker from the commissary - because you didn't have to explain what it was. (And a couple of those salt shakers they found ended up on Dr. McCoy's surgical tray...)

So you can't make a gun or a costume so outlandish that it has to be explained to the audience.

And I think you are wrong about the demise of the movie theater, too.

Originally Posted by KJ

George Lucas sure felt threaten by BG though if he had to try and sue Universal (Which he lost!). My only gripe looking back is that John Dykstra fell out with both Lucas then Larson and didn't stick around with neither sci-fi juggernauts which had these all-new fantastic concepts with ground breaking SFX, that he helped develop at the time!

KJ

In point of fact, KJ, that lawsuit may very well have been a publicity ploy to raise interest in both properties. Check out the article we have posted over at TOK:

http://www.tombsofkobol.com/bsg/bsg-article-01.html

I am
Dawg

[dec5]

Originally Posted by Dawg

No, it's obvious that you don't know where I'm coming from.

Avatar's humans were from Earth. Alien's humans were from Earth. Firefly/Serenity's humans were from Earth. 2001 was about Earth. These movies were set in the future - our future - Earth's future.

Battlestar Galactica is not about Earth, Earth's people, or (except on a most tangential level) Earth's future. Battlestar Galactica asks us to identify with humans that did not grow up on this world, but whose history diverged from ours millennia ago. They are our human brethren, but they are different from us culturally. This difference is depicted by the use of strange units of measure, different nomenclatures, different clothing than you see your friends and neighbors wearing, different technology.

In 1978 the producers gave the audience the benefit of the doubt, that we had the intelligence and the imagination to accept this, and we did.

Pity today's producers don't have the same respect for their audience.

Well, not so fast, I don't think we are too far off what we think works visually on the show.

You can't deny the the 20th century BMX boots of the pilots worked on TOS. You can't deny the similar 20th century clothes that the fight crew wore, or the Eastern and Western Alliance clothing looked good. The Prez of the Western Alliance was wearing what looked like a off shoot of American Colonial suit. You had dial indicators on the Vipers with english numbers on them. There where tons of 20th Century artifacts on TOS accept suit and ties.

Now, as to the rest:

When a writer or filmmaker designs other universes, certain absolutes apply. For example, you must accommodate the language of the audience. You can't use an alien language without some form of translation into something the viewer understands. That's why foreign films use subtitles, why Star Trek had the Universal Translator, why everyone in Star Wars (except Jabba the Hutt) spoke English.

The same is true of prop and costume design. To use your examples, human weapons are, always have been, and always will be designed to fit the human hand. Therefore, the Star Wars blasters look a lot like pistols and carbines, and the robes are made to fit the human form. Add to this the necessity of a sense of familiarity.

A perfect example of "familiarity" comes from TOS Star Trek, from the first episode (The Man Trap). Seems they were looking for a salt shaker for a scene, and they gathered all sorts of futuristic salt shakers for evaluation. You know what they wound up with? A salt shaker from the commissary - because you didn't have to explain what it was. (And a couple of those salt shakers they found ended up on Dr. McCoy's surgical tray...)

So you can't make a gun or a costume so outlandish that it has to be explained to the audience.

And I think you are wrong about the demise of the movie theater, too.



In point of fact, KJ, that lawsuit may very well have been a publicity ploy to raise interest in both properties. Check out the article we have posted over at TOK:

http://www.tombsofkobol.com/bsg/bsg-article-01.html

I am
Dawg

From what you have said, I agree with. You can't make things so Alien that
no one has any reference of what is seen on screen. I think where we are
spilt,is the degree of difference from our world and BSG. TOS had many similar things from our American culture....even Disco music.

The new series basically pushed it up a notch, but kept the Greek and Roman
influences such as polytheism and reference to their idols. The suit and ties and 60's type military styles was just thrown in for a different look.


I don't think it was done because the producers didn't think the audience would not understand what they were looking at, but just for style. The
suit and tie look is the classic look of the modern and near post modern
era. Using it for a space faring culture can work just as good the "robes and
boot look" that TOS used in the 70's. IMO.


Though I think the look of TOS and Star wars where closer....than TNS.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by dec5

Well, not so fast, I don't think we are too far off what we think works visually on the show.

You can't deny the the 20th century BMX boots of the pilots worked on TOS. You can't deny the similar 20th century clothes that the fight crew wore, or the Eastern and Western Alliance clothing looked good. The Prez of the Western Alliance was wearing what looked like a off shoot of American Colonial suit. You had dial indicators on the Vipers with english numbers on them. There where tons of 20th Century artifacts on TOS accept suit and ties.

And I think you're way, way off, and I think your argument is circular. On the one hand, you agree with me about set and costume design that you don't have to explain to the audience, yet you throw these very design elements up as examples of similarity to 20th Century items anyway.

The only reason they didn't put fictional Kobollian (or even pseudo-Aramaic) numbers on the Viper dials was so we could read them without explanations. They used common attitude instrumentation, too, for the same reason (and because of production cost issues).

Hey - guess what. The warrior's jackets were taken directly from the Eisenhower-style uniform jackets and leather flight jackets of WWII.

So what? They were short jackets designed for the human torso in a fighter cockpit. The important part of this equations is that there were unusual design elements on them, and well as the tunic and trousers, that identified them as Colonial. The boots (Motocross, not BMX), unfamiliar to most at that time, added to that sense of familiar yet other-worldliness.

Suits and ties from JCPenney don't do that. Everyone knows a suit and tie belongs in downtown offices and church on Sunday, and we see them and wear them every single day. Suits and ties as costume in a non-Earth-centric show shows a horrendous lack of imagination and a core belief that the audience is too stupid to notice.

Originally Posted by dec5

From what you have said, I agree with. You can't make things so Alien that
no one has any reference of what is seen on screen. I think where we are
spilt,is the degree of difference from our world and BSG. TOS had many similar things from our American culture....even Disco music.

The new series basically pushed it up a notch, but kept the Greek and Roman
influences such as polytheism and reference to their idols. The suit and ties and 60's type military styles was just thrown in for a different look.


I don't think it was done because the producers didn't think the audience would not understand what they were looking at, but just for style. The
suit and tie look is the classic look of the modern and near post modern
era. Using it for a space faring culture can work just as good the "robes and
boot look" that TOS used in the 70's. IMO.


Though I think the look of TOS and Star wars where closer....than TNS.

And the reason for that is that the prop and costume designers for BG and SW had imagination and believed that the audience was capable of the same level of imagination. "Style" is critical to set the tone, the environment of a story - you don't put the cast in blue jeans and cowboy boots and expect the audience to accept it as "Jane Eyre."

The suit and tie look is the classic look of the modern and near post modern era. Using it for a space faring culture can work just as good the "robes and boot look" that TOS used in the 70's. IMO.

Sure, you're absolutely right - if the show we're talking about were centered on Earth, or Earth people, or Earth's future. But Battlestar Galactica is centered on a human culture that never saw Earth. Whose clothing and technology were never designed from Earthly precursors. Whose languages, mathematics, measurements, etc. diverged from a common root tens of thousands of years ago. Who were the source and inspiration for the great civilizations of Earth's distant past, not the other way around.

This is a concept some can't seem to wrap their minds around and so insist that "Colonial" humans need to drive Humvees and wear ties and fly in Air Force One and speak idiomatic 20th-Century American English because we the audience can't possibly make that leap, either.

That is an insult to our intelligence and our imagination. Particularly because we did make that leap back in 1978.

That is not a mistake I would expect someone of Singer's abilities to make.

I am
Dawg

[dec5]

Originally Posted by Dawg

And I think you're way, way off, and I think your argument is circular. On the one hand, you agree with me about set and costume design that you don't have to explain to the audience, yet you throw these very design elements up as examples of similarity to 20th Century items anyway.


The only reason they didn't put fictional Kobollian (or even pseudo-Aramaic) numbers on the Viper dials was so we could read them without explanations. They used common attitude instrumentation, too, for the same reason (and because of production cost issues).

Hey - guess what. The warrior's jackets were taken directly from the Eisenhower-style uniform jackets and leather flight jackets of WWII.

Earth type WWII uniforms...yes and a little Spanish Bull fighter style too. You are correct and I am glad you seem OK with these Earth centric elements in TOS.

As with the Vipers, you have in the cockpit standard
instrumentation from Earth centric designs.
I am glad you seem to be OK with this too. (Budget constraints.)

So what? They were short jackets designed for the human torso in a fighter cockpit. The important part of this equations is that there were unusual design elements on them, and well as the tunic and trousers, that identified them as Colonial. The boots (Motocross, not BMX), unfamiliar to most at that time, added to that sense of familiar yet other-worldliness.

Some folks apparently did use MX gear in BMX.....

MX/BMX



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...d=270516928253


But yes, Fullbore MX boots were used in TOS BSG.

http://www.classicboots.com/moto/fullbore.htm

I am glad we agree that earth centric MX boots can appear other worldly
too. This we also can agree these worked in TOS.

Suits and ties from JCPenney don't do that. Everyone knows a suit and tie belongs in downtown offices and church on Sunday, and we see them and wear them every single day. Suits and ties as costume in a non-Earth-centric show shows a horrendous lack of imagination and a core belief that the audience is too stupid to notice.

Isn't it possible the look was honestly a alternate modern/post modern motif instead of the ancient Egyptian one in TOS? If you look at the President's spaceship, it vaguely resembles the Orion shuttle interior, and the flight attendants uniforms look almost exactly the same from the movie 2001, in 1968. Possible a vague nod to the movie.

Couldn't a different style be a honest motive and not a insult to the viewers intelligence?

And the reason for that is that the prop and costume designers for BG and SW had imagination and believed that the audience was capable of the same level of imagination. "Style" is critical to set the tone, the environment of a story - you don't put the cast in blue jeans and cowboy boots and expect the audience to accept it as "Jane Eyre."



Sure, you're absolutely right - if the show we're talking about were centered on Earth, or Earth people, or Earth's future. But [/i]Battlestar Galactica[/i] is centered on a human culture that never saw Earth. Whose clothing and technology were never designed from Earthly precursors. Whose languages, mathematics, measurements, etc. diverged from a common root tens of thousands of years ago. Who were the source and inspiration for the great civilizations of Earth's distant past, not the other way around.

This is a concept some can't seem to wrap their minds around and so insist that "Colonial" humans need to drive Humvees and wear ties and fly in Air Force One and speak idiomatic 20th-Century American English because we the audience can't possibly make that leap, either.

That is an insult to our intelligence and our imagination. Particularly because we did make that leap back in 1978.

That is not a mistake I would expect someone of Singer's abilities to make.

I am
Dawg

I understand what BSG TOS was going for: a older advanced civilization
which was different from our own, but influenced our earth's ancient past,
in mythology,technology and culture we have today.


But:


No Humvees. no ties, no Air Force one type ships with folks who speak American, should be in a new BSG movie at least in the BSG Colonial culture .


I hope I am clear in understanding this....thanks.

[Reaper]

Dec5, YOu don't seem to grasp anything being said here. In Both Star wars and TOS BSG, they took UNCOMMON Earth elements - how many people, even today, wear Motocross boots to work? or on their day off, if not doing Motocross? In Star Wars, the main footwear was Either equestrian Riding boots, or German WWII Jack boots (officer and enlisted) NOT common footwear - And made them the standard. An earth type jumpsuit? What is a non earth type jumpsuit look like? FOr a human form, I think it would look the same on any world.

The point here is how would the Necktie, a very intrical part of GINO civilian attire, become universal? GINO did not give it's audience any credit in being able to accept something not common place.

It was a slap in the face to see common, modern firearms NOT MODIFIED and thrown into a Non Earth based culture. I'm sure Colt Firearms originated on Aries, not in Conn.

And I'm glad the Hummer that the guy down the street is now a SCiFi prop. Even the Hummer I drove in the Military.

As Dawg has already stated, this is insulting and overly LAZY for the prop and costume department.

Oh and compairing Colonial One and The Orion Craft in 2001 only reinforces Dawgs argument. The Orion is an EARTH developed craft. Colonial One originated in a system where most of the people there haven't heard of Earth!

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by dec5

Earth type WWII uniforms...yes and a little Spanish Bull fighter style too. You are correct and I am glad you seem OK with these Earth centric elements in TOS.

As with the Vipers, you have in the cockpit standard
instrumentation from Earth centric designs.
I am glad you seem to be OK with this too. (Budget constraints.)

In costume and prop design they must walk the line between familiar and alien. Discussing BG specifically, everything must look like they belong in a human culture but not from Earth. The cut of the warrior's jacket must feel familiar to the audience yet at the same time invoke alien-ness; the flight instrumentation must also be familiar enough to be identifiable but placed in an environment that invoked that same alien-ness.

Just as an aside - I had an added element of real-world familiarity that I had to disregard as I watched. You might recall all the test and measurement equipment, the computer monitors, all were provided by a company called "Tektronix"? Well, in 1978 I worked for Tektronix and I saw every one of those pieces of equipment on a daily basis. But because the designers were able to fit that equipment into an alien/human environment so successfully, I was able to disregard that familiarity and accept it as Colonial.

Originally Posted by dec5

Some folks apparently did use MX gear in BMX.....

MX/BMX

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...d=270516928253

But yes, Fullbore MX boots were used in TOS BSG.

http://www.classicboots.com/moto/fullbore.htm

I am glad we agree that earth centric MX boots can appear other worldly
too. This we also can agree these worked in TOS.

BMX is not MX. I just wanted to make sure we were clear.

Originally Posted by dec5

Isn't it possible the look was honestly a alternate modern/post modern motif instead of the ancient Egyptian one in TOS? If you look at the President's spaceship, it vaguely resembles the Orion shuttle interior, and the flight attendants uniforms look almost exactly the same from the movie 2001, in 1968. Possible a vague nod to the movie.

Couldn't a different style be a honest motive and not a insult to the viewers intelligence?

Not in this case. Remember, we're talking specifically about Battlestar Galactica. In this universe, we're talking about a culture that has strong links to and reveres its origins (Kobol). Its design influences reflect those ties: the pyramidal buildings, the formal robes, the symbols, the nomenclature, etc.

And again, you cite examples from films that are about Earth's future, where designs came from our present.

BATTLESTAR GALACTICA IS NOT ABOUT EARTH.

Never was. So when you're talking about BG, forget about 2001, Star Trek, Blade Runner, even Firefly. Those are about Earth's future.

So the use of off-the-rack suits and ties as costume, of nomenclatures taken directly from the modern United States military and NATO, of terminology and slang and idiom taken right off of the streets of LA and New York is an insult, when you're supposed to be depicting Battlestar Galactica. It says that you, the audience, are too dumb to make the connection, to identify with humans that don't dress exactly like you do, talk exactly like you do, or use identical measurement units that you use.

It also doesn't say much about the talent of the designers.

Originally Posted by dec5

I understand what BSG TOS was going for: a older advanced civilization
which was different from our own, but influenced our earth's ancient past,
in mythology,technology and culture we have today.


But:


No Humvees. no ties, no Air Force one type ships with folks who speak American, should be in a new BSG movie at least in the BSG Colonial culture .


I hope I am clear in understanding this....thanks.

You're correct. Because none of those things exist in Battlestar Galactica.

I am
Dawg

[TwoBrainedCylon]

Respectfully, I think this is an arguement about a forest in which you're all talking about individual trees.

GINO used neckties, etc. because Ron and Dave wanted the audience to associate their political and social messages to our own society. It was a case that the more they look like us the more we'll see them as "us". As I've argued with my good friend Marley, its hard to follow this on the details because with GINO, Ron and Dave simply weren't very good at delivering their propaganda.

Avatar was better. Personally, I despised the film. One of the worst things I've ever sat through in my life but it also used a lot of the visual cues. The arrangement of the airfield was just like ours. The interactions of the people were just like us. The "White Man come to rape the innocent territory" is such a tired Liberal template that you'd have to be a moron not to get it.

Galactica wasn't created to lay a guilt trip on its audience. It didn't have an "important" social message but it was never intended to do so. It created an entertaining world and the identifiable Earth elements were included to satisfy production budgets not represent anything more significant.

If anything, I'd hope a Galactica movie wasn't created by some Hollywood idiot thinking I need his vision of what America should be like or his guilt-trip of "The White Man's Sins", "George Bush's FollY", "Barrack's Misguided Adventures", or anything else. Give me a good solid story and I'm happy but I'm so tired of morons trying to covertly pass their "wisdom" on me via films and television that I'm ready to puke. (In truth I just shut off the DVD or television and I'm about half sorry I didn't walk out on Avatar).

That will determine the value of a Galactica film, not neckties and the like.

Respectfully,


Russell

[BST]

Good words, Russell.




Folks, I'd kindly recommend a deep breath prior to posting a comment so that we can keep our blood pressures where they need to be.




***********


dec5,

I agree with the sentiments from the others -- "You're missing the point".

As Dawg mentioned, the idea with TOS Galactica was that the Colonials were going to be from a star system far away from our own. It is natural that they would develop different languages, currency systems, units of measurement, types of foods, housing, methods of travel, etc. Clothing is going to be the tough one to call. Since we are talking about bi-pedal forms of life, there are going to be similarities. There will be pants, there will be shirts, there will be jackets and capes, there will be dresses, there will be shoes and boots. The fact that, on the show, a pair of pants has 2 legs, possibly a zipper, and fastens at the waist does NOT mean that it is EXACTLY like a pair of pants found in stores today. It means that there will be similarities. The effort by the production team was to add enough differences, whether it was in the form of modifications to the clothing or simply to other aspects of Colonial life, to give the overall effect of being from a different planet. As mentioned earlier, the final piece was the viewer's willingness to "suspend disbelief" and allow himself or herself to be drawn into the story.


The other show of the same name made no such effort. The suits and ties were straight off the rack of the local JCPenney, Walmart, or Target store. They probably even wore penny loafers or wingtips!

For reasons unknown to me, you seem to be unwilling to admit that TOS Galactica and Star Wars went to great lengths to differentiate themselves from present-day Earth.

Why?

[dec5]

Originally Posted by BST

Good words, Russell.




Folks, I'd kindly recommend a deep breath prior to posting a comment so that we can keep our blood pressures where they need to be.




***********


dec5,

I agree with the sentiments from the others -- "You're missing the point".

As Dawg mentioned, the idea with TOS Galactica was that the Colonials were going to be from a star system far away from our own. It is natural that they would develop different languages, currency systems, units of measurement, types of foods, housing, methods of travel, etc. Clothing is going to be the tough one to call. Since we are talking about bi-pedal forms of life, there are going to be similarities. There will be pants, there will be shirts, there will be jackets and capes, there will be dresses, there will be shoes and boots. The fact that, on the show, a pair of pants has 2 legs, possibly a zipper, and fastens at the waist does NOT mean that it is EXACTLY like a pair of pants found in stores today. It means that there will be similarities. The effort by the production team was to add enough differences, whether it was in the form of modifications to the clothing or simply to other aspects of Colonial life, to give the overall effect of being from a different planet. As mentioned earlier, the final piece was the viewer's willingness to "suspend disbelief" and allow himself or herself to be drawn into the story.


The other show of the same name made no such effort. The suits and ties were straight off the rack of the local JCPenney, Walmart, or Target store. They probably even wore penny loafers or wingtips!

For reasons unknown to me, you seem to be unwilling to admit that TOS Galactica and Star Wars went to great lengths to differentiate themselves from present-day Earth.

Why?

Sure they made the effort to be different, but to a degree. Both admit on basing designs in our history. TNS IMO just used the "JC Penny look" to suggest maybe our look actually isn't so new and came from another time also.

Which reminds me of a Twilight zone episode where another advance
planet had neck ties.

This is all just fantasy after all..

Later that evening, the group has safely escaped their doomed planet, and are on course. Riden comments that he cannot believe that there is a planet full of people like themselves. Sturka smiles as he points out on the ship's viewer their mysterious destination, 11 million miles away — the third planet from the sun, called . . Earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_from_the_Sun


Video:

http://www.cbs.com/classics/the_twil...Ns9ht8_ja6QCjo



Hope this explains the perspective I am coming from and why the
JC penny look works for me.

Hope this helps.

[BST]

It does but, Battlestar Galactica original premise was that these people, while originating from the same root, were of a different world. There was nothing to indicate that there would be replication of apparel in such an exact fashion as suits and ties.




Now, speaking as a Fleets admin,

I realize that I'm really going too far, toward a discussion of Moore's show, with my recent remarks and this conversation is going down a path that it shouldn't go.


Let's just consider this an area in which we will 'agree to disagree' and then, move on toward discussions regarding other elements which do NOT need any comparative data from Moore's show.


Future discussion should center on those elements that we wish to see, in the proposed film, NOT the elements from Moore's show that we do not wish to see.

[Jubal]

Keep first off the dignity of man in the face of adversity.
The value of man when resources are low.
The advantage of individuality over machine.
And all that being possible by a greater power.

-----------

So now that the philosophy felter carb is out of the way, give me the sleak, but functional and believable Vipers.

I like the colonial jackets, keep the theme, and the cool jacket look, but at the same time somehow make it adaptable as a workable flight/ environment suit. (In other words, make it where the boots, tan pants, the brown coat also have ways of connecting to gloves, and somehow have the jacket closable to attach to the cool viper helmet.)

Cylons... make them ruthless, intelligent, vicious killing machines. I loved the Cylon look where they seem like mysterious knights. Make the armor a bit more efficient (costume wise). Maybe a bit closer to storm/clone troopers, but obvious that they are robots, not men.

While the Cylons are always one step more efficient, keep humans one step more creative and unique. Uniqueness of humanity seemed to me the original tale of Battlestar Galactica.

I liked the concept of daggits. Small robotic aids, guards, etc. I think it would be possible to make something (even without CGI) that would could still be cute, but effective, and not quite so big. But I have a soft spot for the daggits.

I would like to see possibly more alien races accompany the Galactica and her fleet.

Honestly, would love to see the journey work to establish new colonies, make new allies, run into new races, and while exploring maybe find Earth, but leave that up to scouting parties.

And can't say enough... technology, costumes, cultures of the Galactica crew that show humans who might have inspired the religions and cultures of Earth, but hundreds of years removed and different from what we know. That is a biggie to me.