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Old March 17th, 2005, 07:05 PM   #1
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Default Anime debate

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Without actors you have nothing. Look at Nu Galactica. If you didn't have Callis and Hogan the show would be a joke. These two make it worth watching IMHO. Anime and cartoons are great when the stunts would be impossible for a live actor to do and CGI doesn't cut the mustard.
Thought I'd start with that quote. You would still have actors in anime. That's why so many fans insist on subtitles, because they believe the Japanese actors to be superior. This can have a huge effect on the way the character is portrayed (and often the animation is done to resemble the performance). For instance, watch both the American and Japanese versions of Inuyasha. For those of you who are unaware, Inuyasha is a half-dog demon, half human. In the American version the actor (who is actually pretty good) portrays him in a way that makes him sound like just an ordinary jerk. In the Japanese version the actor does his voice in a very scratchy manner that sounds like an animal.

Also, I mentioned over at Kingfish's board that the realism of TOS could be perfectly recaptured by anime. This was promptly twisted into "All TOS fans care about are special effect." By "realism" I was referring to the limitations placed upon the human body. This varies wildly from series to series, even within live action. The limitations on Luke Skywalker as a Jedi are obviously lower than Starbuck's, which are lower than a character on Star Trek.

Most Americans are just used to cartoons where all the characters have virtually no limitations on their bodies. In Japan however, this is quite different. On a show like Dragon Ball Z the limitations are almost non-existant, however before considering that the norm you should watch a little show called Blue Gender. Within this show the human body is actually more limited and fragile than it is in TOS. In one instance a van got flipped vertically. A woman fell to the back of the van, bumped her head, blood spewed from her mouth, and she died. It would be a simple matter to figure out the limitations on the characters of TOS, and perfectly simulate the feel of the flesh-and-blood people, only more artistically.

So, how is saying "anime can't do TOS" any different from saying "a black guy can't sing country music, because it was started by whites" (fun fact: Country music was actually invented by black slaves ). If you can perfectly simulate the feel of it, why not go for it.

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*doesn't think even Pixar has sufficient software or hardware to capture the sheer expressiveness of Callis' face.*
BTW, Pixar is not anime. While the ships may be done CGI, and rendered Zoids-style into cell-format, the characters should be hand-drawn.

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Old March 17th, 2005, 10:23 PM   #2
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If the anime was similar to Final Fantasy or Appleseed, maybe, otherwise I don't think an anime version would fly well...
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Old March 17th, 2005, 10:43 PM   #3
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The actors in anime - or any other animation format - are voice actors. They are not able to use body language or facial expressions to convey emotion or whatever.

Hand-drawn or computer generated, they are still cartoons with voiceover dialogue - regardless of how sophisticated it might be.

And hand-drawn will be far more cartoonish than sophisticated CGI.

Once we get human-looking anime - and I mean barely distinguishable from actual humans - then we can talk about anime Galactica.

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Old March 17th, 2005, 10:55 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustex
(fun fact: Country music was actually invented by black slaves ).

This makes me laugh.

<invective edited>

Suggesting that "country music" was "Invented" by decendants of Africa rather than the Scotch/Irish is absurd.

Get your facts straight.
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Old March 18th, 2005, 01:00 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nextceo
If the anime was similar to Final Fantasy or Appleseed, maybe, otherwise I don't think an anime version would fly well...
I would have to agree with you if it looked like either of those two I could go for that - pretty amazing stuff so realistic!!!
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Old March 18th, 2005, 02:41 AM   #6
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Tron still looked like a cartoon, even with real live actors.

The amount of time it takes with current tech to create a few seconds of "realistic" footage without the human props we call actors is prohibitive.
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Old March 18th, 2005, 06:28 AM   #7
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CGI can accomplish more than you guys could ever imagine. Right now with Zoic out of the picture with the NuBG you can see a significant drop in overall quality but cgi takes a bad wrap from people because of just that. You get what you pay for and in the end it takes money to make things look good.

Everyone knows that character development lacks compared to a real actor but what more do you guys want. Doing a TOS Galactica in animation would be huge. You could see a world develop in front of you that all of us want to see. In my eyes Galactica is the perfect venue for animation. Look no further than what Warthog did with the Galactica game.
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Old March 18th, 2005, 07:41 AM   #8
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I thought Zoic was still doing FX for TNS? Last I heard they were as noted in RDM's last Blog:

"Are you still working with Zoic for design work?"

RDM: Absofrakkinglutely
.

I haven't noticed a drop in quality at all, particularly in eps 10, 12 & 13....
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Old March 18th, 2005, 08:08 AM   #9
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Sorry, still prefer people.
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Old March 18th, 2005, 09:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nextceo
If the anime was similar to Final Fantasy or Appleseed, maybe, otherwise I don't think an anime version would fly well...
That's why I used Pixar as a litmus test. The do very expressive characters with CG type animation and even they would be hard pressed to capture some of the subtleties of expression (which a flirt like Starbuck requires) or just some of the lightning fast expressions that come over someone like Callis' face.
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Old March 18th, 2005, 09:35 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nextceo
I thought Zoic was still doing FX for TNS? Last I heard they were as noted in RDM's last Blog:

"Are you still working with Zoic for design work?"

RDM: Absofrakkinglutely
.
nextceo -

Just to let you in on something... Titon works for Zoic - I'm sure if he says they are no longer doing the VFX, he would know better than Ron Moore does.

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Old March 18th, 2005, 09:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nextceo
I thought Zoic was still doing FX for TNS? Last I heard they were as noted in RDM's last Blog:

"Are you still working with Zoic for design work?"

RDM: Absofrakkinglutely
.

I haven't noticed a drop in quality at all, particularly in eps 10, 12 & 13....
I've noticed them pacing things faster, the viper flight over the asteroid wasn't as tight as the Zoic done stuff, something in the asteriod's texture was less detailed for one, the conveyor tunnel structure not quite as solid feeling. The closeups of the Cylon base shown too quickly to take in detail. I think it's not as noticeable to the non-pro eye just because of the editing being so choppy. (I don't see it as much myself, only hints that make me wonder). They can get away with blurred, lower detail imagery because you barely get a chance to take in a scene. Less detail=less render time=cheaper effects at lower quality. (My pet peeve about the effects is I want more time to take them in.)

Also, they can still be "working with" Zoic, but have bugetarily forced Zoic to subcontract or work in only a supervisory role to a cheaper Canadian vendor. Zoic is still involved, but it's not really Zoic's work entirely.

I'm with Titon on animation not being a bad way to go for a continuation. It's growing in popularity. Movies like Robots are merging comedy with a bit of Sci-fi/fantasy. BG could be a bridge that blows open all sorts of possibilities for mainstream Sci-Fi. Use the benefit of seeing how the Japanese have turned it into an adult medium, with character development and use the mind blowing level that CG effects can bring to an action sequence. I would want it to be like appleseed and not hand-drawn. Very little is hand-drawn these days anyway.
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Old March 18th, 2005, 09:52 AM   #13
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I had heard mention that one of the effects shots from the mini was cut and used in an episode of the series.
If you look at the DVD extras, it makes sense to conclude that some of the effects for ep 10 were cut from that scene originally done for the mini. Maybe.

"Atmosphere Visual Effects" is the Vancouver effects company that did the effects in that ep, as well as 9, 12, and 13.

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Well the first season was finished just before xmas, as much as possible new shots were created for each episode, but alot of shots had to be used from the mini to save money. Also it should be known that only just over half the new fx shots in the first season were done at Zoic. Two companies in Canada were also hired (no comment! :-))
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Old March 18th, 2005, 09:56 AM   #14
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Myself, I'm a big anime fan, and have really gotten into in it the last year or so due to both Adult Swim and G$TTV airing really good anime series: Wolf's Rain, Witch Hunter Robin, Read or Die, Last Exile, InuYasha, and Ghost in the Shell just to name a few. Appleseed is another example of feature length approaches to this same genre of stortytelling with brutal reality and not just large eyed characters acting like idiots.

The anime that we see here in the US is just the tip of the iceberg, and most of it is not the top quality series which air in Japan. Japan has an enormous sub-culture industry of Anime, animated shows in which they have everything from children's programming, adult action shows, to very adult shows (pornography); and Manga, printed series like comics but more violent/adult subject matter.

Anime characters and storylines can be dark and complex, just like movies. In the better series, characters sometimes die tragic and violent deaths, there are consequences from their decisions which come back to haunt characters, they have regrets, problems, issues, and series typically have endings, not continuing on forever (with the exception of InuYasha) pulling dead rabbits out of hats. I'd rather watch decent anime than lots of bad TV series, reality shows, cheaply rushed made for TV movies, which seem to rule the day on the big three networks.

I think anime would be good to fill in the stories that TNS and even TOS won't have time or money to tell, similar to the Clone Wars series for Star Wars, or the AniMatrix for the Matrix series. It should be noted that having BSG anime would draw new fans to either series.

I don't think it could ever be mainstream enough to become the core storytelling device, and that's really not in it's best interest. It should just be a stand alone series, to tell additional stories, adding to the mystique of the entire world that is BSG.

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Old March 18th, 2005, 01:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini1999
Just to let you in on something... Titon works for Zoic - I'm sure if he says they are no longer doing the VFX, he would know better than Ron Moore does.
As of a week ago, Ron Moore said that Zoic would continue to be the primary FX company for the coming season. Seems odd that the guy who signs the checks would be wrong about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigel_No_6
I don't think it could ever be mainstream enough to become the core storytelling device, and that's really not in it's best interest. It should just be a stand alone series, to tell additional stories, adding to the mystique of the entire world that is BSG.
Something along the lines of the Riddick and Van Helsing animated DVDs that came out at the same time as the movies did? I didn’t see either of those, but I thought the idea was pretty intriguing. What would people think of a straight to DVD animated Galactica series?
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Old March 18th, 2005, 01:28 PM   #16
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Frag - In this same vein, where does your avatar come from? I was thinking it came from an animated version or another short of TOS but based on the dialogue here (and elsewhere), that doesn't seem to be the case.

I've been meaning to ask you that and this thread is relevant enough to finally serve my curiosity...

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Old March 18th, 2005, 01:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg
Hand-drawn or computer generated, they are still cartoons with voiceover dialogue - regardless of how sophisticated it might be.

And hand-drawn will be far more cartoonish than sophisticated CGI.
You obviously haven't seen Blue Gender. Not only is it infinately less cartoonish than Toy Story and Finding Nemo, in fact it is far less cartoonish than TOS.
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Old March 18th, 2005, 01:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Marley
This makes me laugh.

<invective edited>

Suggesting that "country music" was "Invented" by decendants of Africa rather than the Scotch/Irish is absurd.

Get your facts straight.
The only instrument on Earth similar to the banjo is an instrument from Africa. They also had a kind of fiddle. When they were brought over here, any slaves who could use the fiddle were taught the violen (similar principle). While they were play violen music at their masters' parties, they invented their own style of fiddling that they played around the slave cabins (the violinists hated it). They also built banjos.

After slavery ended, many of them headed into the mountains. The hillbillies hadn't kept slaves anyway, and so they were especially rascist, and they considered music to be a matter of taste rather than race. They quickly found that they had quite a taste for this new "black" music, and picked it up. Then, decades later, some record producers came to record moutain music. They didn't even look at the blacks, who they assumed would play something different than the whites (and I guess they assumed it would be crappy). So they recorded white hillbillies playing music they learned from blacks.

I learned this on the CMT documentary Waiting in the Wings, so argue with them if you disagree.
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Old March 18th, 2005, 01:44 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigel_No_6
Myself, I'm a big anime fan, and have really gotten into in it the last year or so due to both Adult Swim and G$TTV airing really good anime series: Wolf's Rain, Witch Hunter Robin, Read or Die, Last Exile, InuYasha, and Ghost in the Shell just to name a few. Appleseed is another example of feature length approaches to this same genre of stortytelling with brutal reality and not just large eyed characters acting like idiots.

The anime that we see here in the US is just the tip of the iceberg, and most of it is not the top quality series which air in Japan. Japan has an enormous sub-culture industry of Anime, animated shows in which they have everything from children's programming, adult action shows, to very adult shows (pornography); and Manga, printed series like comics but more violent/adult subject matter.

Anime characters and storylines can be dark and complex, just like movies. In the better series, characters sometimes die tragic and violent deaths, there are consequences from their decisions which come back to haunt characters, they have regrets, problems, issues, and series typically have endings, not continuing on forever (with the exception of InuYasha) pulling dead rabbits out of hats. I'd rather watch decent anime than lots of bad TV series, reality shows, cheaply rushed made for TV movies, which seem to rule the day on the big three networks.

I think anime would be good to fill in the stories that TNS and even TOS won't have time or money to tell, similar to the Clone Wars series for Star Wars, or the AniMatrix for the Matrix series. It should be noted that having BSG anime would draw new fans to either series.

I don't think it could ever be mainstream enough to become the core storytelling device, and that's really not in it's best interest. It should just be a stand alone series, to tell additional stories, adding to the mystique of the entire world that is BSG.

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Old March 18th, 2005, 01:52 PM   #20
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BTW, go here for some Blue Gender trailers. This is the level of realism I'm talking about:

http://bluegender.com/

Also, anime provides another advantage that live action doesn't give. In the case of live action if you want to have a "clean" and "dirty" version, you have to plan for it. For instance, you can't have nudity in a scene that's overly important to the plot if you want to edit it down for kids.

However, back when Cartoon Network was showing the 08th MS Team it had a problem. There was a scene in which the main character saw a girl swimming nude, and she shot at him. Other plot points wouldn't make sense without this scene. The solution: Just draw a bikini on her (have it be done in a tint that drastically conflicts with everything around it, so all the adult viewers know what happened). This could be worked for a TOS series. I'm not proposing that there should be nudity in the TOS continuation, but if you want to call it adult, a bit of blood here and there helps. Then if you want to air it on daytime Cartoon Network, you can just edit it out. It's alot harder to digitally paint out blood.
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Old March 18th, 2005, 02:02 PM   #21
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Default Blue Gender

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BTW, go here for some Blue Gender trailers. This is the level of realism I'm talking about:

http://bluegender.com/
Mustex -

Tom and I had a conversation about Blue Gender last year when I discovered the series thru Netflix.com. You might want to check the Anime discussion forum of Fleets:

http://battlestargalactica-fleets.co...ead.php?t=7775


Blue Gender is indeed one of the best examples of modern animation technique - but it's definitely not for kids...

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Old March 18th, 2005, 02:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini1999
Mustex -

Tom and I had a conversation about Blue Gender last year when I discovered the series thru Netflix.com. You might want to check the Anime discussion forum of Fleets:

http://battlestargalactica-fleets.co...ead.php?t=7775


Blue Gender is indeed one of the best examples of modern animation technique - but it's definitely not for kids...

Best,
Bryan
That's what I've been saying. It's exactly the style that I'd like to see for a TOS continuation (the blood would need to be toned down a bit, although for a TNS anime...MARLENE AND YUJI ARE BACK IN ACTION!).

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Old March 18th, 2005, 02:21 PM   #23
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As of a week ago, Ron Moore said that Zoic would continue to be the primary FX company for the coming season. Seems odd that the guy who signs the checks would be wrong about that.
Hmmm, then someone better tell Lee Stringer to move back to the states? He moved to England last month since Zoic is no longer involved in the FX. He is now working with Ron Thornton on Captain Scarlet. On second thought maybe someone should tell Enigma and Atmosphere in Canada that Zoic is still in charge. The Hand of God episode was all Enigma and Atmosphere.

He might be telling people that and yes Zoic might be there as consultants but i'll tell you with out a doubt right now that Zoic is not the FX company in charge. Has not been for months.



Oh and one more thing, you think Ron Moore is writing the checks? Professionally speaking if it *was* up to him Zoic would be still doing the FX. Zoic costs to much.
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Old March 18th, 2005, 03:26 PM   #24
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Hmmm, then someone better tell Lee Stringer to move back to the states? He moved to England last month since Zoic is no longer involved in the FX. He is now working with Ron Thornton on Captain Scarlet.
Yes!!! I've been watching the new Captain Scarlet with my six-year-old nephew Thomas and we love it!! Thomas even likes the old Anderson shows and plays with the toys.

Uncle Peter's got to get him a Skybase for Christmas.

If Captain Scarlet comes over to the States, watch it, it's great family entertainment for kids and adults alike and a pretty faithful remake to boot!

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Old March 18th, 2005, 03:48 PM   #25
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Didn't we have a discussion on this issue before? http://battlestargalactica-fleets.co...ight=anime+BSG
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Old March 18th, 2005, 09:51 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustex
I learned this on the CMT documentary [i
Waiting in the Wings[/i], so argue with them if you disagree.
No, you are spouting off things that are not true, so I am taking it up with you.
Get used to it, you are going to be called on it when your facts are wrong.

Banjo did indeed come from the African slaves.

The notion that the "fiddle" came from Africa rather than the European violin is plain historical revisionism. As a hypothesis, it doesn't pass the laugh test.
Similar instrument, and of course, changes in styles from the slaves, certainly that happened. But, saying the slaves had an influence on country music is very different than saying it is derived from the slaves.

The existance of traditional Scottish and Irish tunes being in the history of Appalachian music, with no examples of "African" themes is the basis for the claim that Scotch/Irish influences are the backbone of "country" music. We can actually go to Ireland and Scotland and find similar music. You cannot do the same with Africa.

You shouldn't believe everything you see on television.
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Old March 19th, 2005, 07:08 AM   #27
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Darth's right. You can plausibly trace the roots of American gospel, soul, funk, jazz and hip hop back to slavery and even back to Africa itself, but country is a European descendant.

Sorry for the OT
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Old March 19th, 2005, 07:22 AM   #28
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Uncle Peter's got to get him a Skybase for Christmas
Take a close look at the Skybase launch tube landing sections Peter. The pads where the vehicles come up from inside.

I built that little sucker.

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Old March 19th, 2005, 08:18 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Titon
CGI can accomplish more than you guys could ever imagine. Right now with Zoic out of the picture with the NuBG you can see a significant drop in overall quality but cgi takes a bad wrap from people because of just that. You get what you pay for and in the end it takes money to make things look good.

Everyone knows that character development lacks compared to a real actor but what more do you guys want. Doing a TOS Galactica in animation would be huge. You could see a world develop in front of you that all of us want to see. In my eyes Galactica is the perfect venue for animation. Look no further than what Warthog did with the Galactica game.


I played the game from start to finish. The CGI Vipers, Raiders and space battles were excellent. This is a wise use of CGI. However human actors are needed to covey the story. Hatch had live actors in Second Coming. The only CGI actor was Lorne Greene in a hologram conveying Adama's last wishes. Tom DeSanto had live actors Dirk and Herb and possibly a few other old school BG actors reprising their roles.
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Old March 19th, 2005, 11:42 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Darth Marley
The notion that the "fiddle" came from Africa rather than the European violin is plain historical revisionism. As a hypothesis, it doesn't pass the laugh test.
Similar instrument, and of course, changes in styles from the slaves, certainly that happened. But, saying the slaves had an influence on country music is very different than saying it is derived from the slaves.
There you go rewriting my post. I didn't say the fiddle came from Africa, simply that they had an instrument similar to it. When the masters saw this, they had them learn the violen (close enough to be an easy transition). At the master's parties they played traditional violen music, but around the cabin they fiddled.

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