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Old February 24th, 2005, 07:10 AM   #1
Centurion Draco
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Default The Battlestar Kobol

Every time I watch 'Saga' and i hear Serena say:
'So far details of the armistice going on at this moment on the Star Kobol are not coming as hoped For, because of unusual electrical interference...'

I find myself more and more sure that Kobol is in fact another Battlestar.
My reasoning is as follows:
Obviously she isn't actually referring to a 'star'.
The planet Kobol's location is long forgotten.
Kobol is so important to the colonists, wouldn't it naturally follow that a Battlestar would be named after it?
Isn't 'Star' an obvious abbreviation of 'BattleStar'?

I think it's safe to assume that the talks were to be held on a ship not a planet, as the council, President Adar and Baltar are all on the Atlantia waiting for the Cylon delegation.
Either they were to shuttle to a Cylon ship, a neutral location (unlikely, given that there is no mention of preparing to leave), or stay on the Atlantia (perhaps the name was changed and the mention in Janes lines was missed?)

I imagine just like everything else, this subject has been roundly discussed over the years, so what do you warriors think?
Was Kobol a BattleStar?
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Old February 24th, 2005, 07:21 AM   #2
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Or was it more of a Luxury liner that was going to be used as a meeting place for the signing of the armistice?

I always figured it was a civilian ship, utilized so that the peace proceedings were in a peaceful environment.

I was always intrigued that Adar was on the Atlantia at the time of the attack.

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Old February 24th, 2005, 07:33 AM   #3
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Hmmm, I thought about a large civilian ship or even an orbital station, but the fact that she definately says 'Star Kobol' makes me think 'BattleStar'. Like people say 'Carrier' instead of 'Aircraft-Carrier'.

Or do you think that 'Star' was actually a different class of colonial ship, like a subclass of Battlestar, or a civilian 'cruise liner' version?
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Old February 24th, 2005, 07:56 AM   #4
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I thought it was maybe something like the Royal Yacht Britannia or Air Force One. You know, an official Colonial ship, but not a warship like Atlantia.
But given that they used a space station as a meeting place for the new mini, that could be the smart bet.

As for Adar being on Atlantia when the ambush occured. I assume that he and the delegates would transfer from Atlantia to the Star Kobol at the same time as the Cylon delegation transfer from they're flagship.

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Old February 24th, 2005, 08:18 AM   #5
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I'd actually agree with that.

But this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRG
But given that they used a space station as a meeting place for the new mini, that could be the smart bet.
Wha???

One has little to do with the other; the mini's premise with regard to the Cylons and the war is so radically different from TOS that you cannot draw parallels there with any hope of any point of similarity.

However, if you look at it from the viewpoint of our own history, a peace accord usually gets finalized at some neutral site - for example, Camp David with regard to Israel and Egypt on September 17, 1978. It would make sense to use some non-military ship in neutral space as the rendezvous for the factions to finalize the accords.

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Old February 24th, 2005, 09:57 AM   #6
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I've always thought that the Star Kobol was the president's yacht. But it does raise the question as to why Adar was aboard the Atlantia. Perhaps it was a writing error from a frist draft that was never corrected or the original name that Larson wanted for the Atlantia and changed his mind during his writing.
Just my 2 cents.
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Old February 24th, 2005, 10:46 AM   #7
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Battlestar Galactica 1978

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg
I'd actually agree with that.

But this:



Wha???

One has little to do with the other; the mini's premise with regard to the Cylons and the war is so radically different from TOS that you cannot draw parallels there with any hope of any point of similarity


All I ment was that as they used space station in the mini, maybe it was a wee nod to what the Star Kobol was in the original. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, especially after the fallout on the Beefs forum!

I agree about the neutral venue for the peace summit. In the absence of a third party to host the summit, a meeting on a non combat vessel in open space would be the logical choice.
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Old February 24th, 2005, 03:37 PM   #8
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Battlestar Galactica 1978

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRG
I thought it was maybe something like the Royal Yacht Britannia or Air Force One. You know, an official Colonial ship, but not a warship like Atlantia.
But given that they used a space station as a meeting place for the new mini, that could be the smart bet.

That's what I always thought. A space station outside of both Cylon and Colonial space.

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Old February 24th, 2005, 04:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRG
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg
I'd actually agree with that.

But this:



Wha???

One has little to do with the other; the mini's premise with regard to the Cylons and the war is so radically different from TOS that you cannot draw parallels there with any hope of any point of similarity


All I ment was that as they used space station in the mini, maybe it was a wee nod to what the Star Kobol was in the original. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, especially after the fallout on the Beefs forum!

I agree about the neutral venue for the peace summit. In the absence of a third party to host the summit, a meeting on a non combat vessel in open space would be the logical choice.
BRG
Ah. OK. I get it now. And I wasn't trying to be argumentative myself, just confused about where you were coming from with that.

It would have been a nice gesture, but I don't think the space station was a nod of any size toward TOS, since it was created the way it was; remember, the origins of the Cylons are different, the parameters of the war are different - heck, the only thing remotely similar between the opening moments of Saga and the first half of the mini is the fact it was a sneak attack.

I think the space station was created from the same place the Star Kobol was - our own history of conflict resolution - neutral ground.

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Old February 24th, 2005, 05:51 PM   #10
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The only way for Star Kobol to be a battlestar is if 'star' is an accepted abbreviation of battlestar. If not, then we have a ship called Battlestar Star Kobol. That doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. Have we ever heard 'star' used in place of battlestar any other time? If not, then I think that suggests that Star Kobol is something other than a battlestar. The name certainly does sound ceremonial.
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Old February 24th, 2005, 08:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragmentary
The only way for Star Kobol to be a battlestar is if 'star' is an accepted abbreviation of battlestar. If not, then we have a ship called Battlestar Star Kobol. That doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. Have we ever heard 'star' used in place of battlestar any other time? If not, then I think that suggests that Star Kobol is something other than a battlestar. The name certainly does sound ceremonial.

Sernea's a civilian commentator, and if she is abbreviating Battlestar to 'star' then perhaps its because she's speaking about one of many Battlestars that still exist, and if there is a hint of lazy familiarity in such an abbreviation, the it's not as though anyone would not know what the 'Kobol' was (or the names of any of the remaining Battlestars).
Besides, two word terms/names often get cut to one word (aircraft carrier being the obvious example). I do think its very possible that she means 'Battlestar'.

When he returns from the battle and is confronted by Athena, Starbuck refers to the Galactica as his 'base ship' which is also a term used for Cylon capitol ships, but is the only time we ever hear someone refer to a Battlestar in that way.
I don't think its too much of a stretch to call a Battlestar a 'Star'.
Also, Kobol is a Planet, not a Star?
So if the ship's name is 'Star Kobol' then we must assume that the Planet Kobol's star is also called Kobol? How confusing is that?

I think the most likely explanation is that the Atlantia was originally going to be called the Kobol, and that 'Star' is an abbreviation.
So basically, a script change that was not perfectly integrated.
Aside from that we are left with the problem of that word (as you said).
I lean away from 'Star Kobol' being a ship name because Kobol's not a star (unless we're missing the obvious? 'Saga of a STAR world'? Kobol, the origin of the lords of Kobol/ founders of the colonies? Is it just a mistake referring to the founders planet as a star?) Do the colonists call Kobol a star because they look up into the sky and wonder which 'star' is Kobol?
I dont know, perhaps I'm over-analysing it, I guess I do believe Kobol was a Battlestar.
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Old February 24th, 2005, 09:01 PM   #12
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Battlestar Galactica 1978

Well... Earth, AKA Terra in real life, has a sun that is the center of the Terran System.

So why couldn't the star Kobol orbits around be the center of the Kobol system?

I've heard of Earth referred to as "Starship Earth" as well.

So with these "odd" names, I don't think it's a reach to call something the "Star Kobol".

*leaves $ .02 on the table*
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Old February 25th, 2005, 04:05 AM   #13
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Terra is Latin for Earth
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Old February 25th, 2005, 07:57 AM   #14
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Isn't the sun at the center of our solar system called Sol? probably also Latin term?

Just remember seeing that somewhere.

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Old February 25th, 2005, 10:45 AM   #15
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Battlestar Galactica 1978 Sol

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
Isn't the sun at the center of our solar system called Sol? probably also Latin term?

Just remember seeing that somewhere.

Jewels
Yes it is. Thats what I was taught at school anyway.

Apparently Sol is what the Romans called the sun, the Greeks called it Helios. I've heard the name Sol used in a a few sci fi shows, I think the most recent was Smallville.
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Old February 25th, 2005, 12:54 PM   #16
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Yes, Sol is yet another name for the sun. The solar system is *more* often referred to the "Sol System" in scifi. The "Terran System" name is used less, but is still used at anyrate.
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Old February 26th, 2005, 02:45 AM   #17
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They use Sol in the Wing Commander Games
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Old February 26th, 2005, 05:15 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior
Yes, Sol is yet another name for the sun. The solar system is *more* often referred to the "Sol System" in scifi. The "Terran System" name is used less, but is still used at anyrate.
I think "Terran System" is used in Star Trek. I remember when the Borg attacked in 'Best of Both Worlds', Worf informed the bridge that they were on a direct corse for the Terran System.
I also remember from my old Sega Mega Drive 'Buck Rogers' game from about 10 years ago, that mutant humans from outside the City were called "Terrans" while those in the City were just called Humans.

BTW, in parts of London, they call the sun the Currant Bun. I havn't heard that term used in a sci fi show yet.
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Old February 26th, 2005, 05:21 AM   #19
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Yup our sun is the star sol.
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Old February 26th, 2005, 05:26 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRG
BTW, in parts of London, they call the sun the Currant Bun. I havn't heard that term used in a sci fi show yet.
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Old February 26th, 2005, 08:26 AM   #21
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So, does that mean that another name for Earth would be Sol III?
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Old February 26th, 2005, 08:45 AM   #22
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I quess so

Also in the afforemention Wing Commander Games, the government is the Terran Confederation
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Old February 26th, 2005, 10:37 AM   #23
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Spike, actually, yes. I have heard of Earth referred to as Sol III in scifi in regards to being the third planet in the Sol system
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Old February 26th, 2005, 10:40 AM   #24
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As in the title of "Third Rock From The Sun"
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Old February 27th, 2005, 02:07 PM   #25
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I tend to agree with the Liner theory.

Diplomatic protocol would dictate the delegates would travel to the site in their own vessels, then go to 'neutral' territory for the actual signing. Atlantia was the Human Flagship; the President and Quorum were naturally aboard her.

Since the Cylons have no vessels suitable for this task (I'm assuming a part form a troop transport, and that's a military vessel) a Colonial merchantman/non-military vessel could easily have been agreed upon as being 'neutral enough'.

The Star of Kobol could have been proceeding independently the rendezvous point (likely, to maintain her 'neutrality') or could have been trailing the battlestars. Remember when Adama tries to get the fleet to launch Vipers? Baltar convinces Adar not to because 'so close to the rendezvous'. So the rendezvous hadn't taken place yet...

BTW, in the most recent Hatch book Destiny, it's revealed that the Rising Star was 'Baltar's ship.' He was a wealthy man before the fall (figures, desiring even more power) and owned the shipping line...

My own thoughts on the Peace Conference is that the humans are winning the war. Adar uses the phrase that the Cylons have "sued for peace." Machines, thinking logically would not use deception to deliver the final blow to their enemies. If the Cylons were winning, they would just keep on going, knowing in the end, victory is theirs.

But if they were loosing, and their logical minds would have difficulty. They've created an empire just doing what they've been doing, establishing the Cylon order in the galaxy. But the Humans have stood in their way. And are beating them. Baltar's offer to betray humanity in exchange for his Colony would be like a god-send. The Cylons would see the way to victory even though they were down.

For some further 'backing' for my thoughts: If the Cylons were winning the war, what did they need to send the fighters alone to Cimtar for? If they're winning, shoudn't they have plenty of base stars to both destroy the Battlestar Fleet, AND destory the Colonies? Or at least have enough to destroy the Colonial Battlestars THEN destroy the Colonies? But they only had enough for the latter, not the former....

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Old February 27th, 2005, 02:33 PM   #26
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I had always thought the Cylons were losing the war, and a sneak attack was the only option of winning they had left.
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Old February 27th, 2005, 02:45 PM   #27
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Never though of like that
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Old March 1st, 2005, 05:17 AM   #28
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Quote:
I had always thought the Cylons were losing the war, and a sneak attack was the only option of winning they had left.
That's kind I started on the topic. But thinking more about it, consider what we see of Caprica. Before the attack, people are going about their business, well dress, well fed. This doesn't look like a civilization that's on or has just come off a total war economy, where everything is devoted to the fight. It has plenty of merchant vessels plying the stars, even luxury liners.

Also, we know that more than the 5 battlestars seen in the 1st Fleet have existed. (Some count 12, some more, the number is not really relevant to the argument.) We know many have been lost. Then why in the last 500 yarhen of hte battlestar's existence as a type have there been no replacements? Could it be that no replacements were needed? That as a military machine, they were doing a fine job, and even when the Cylons managed a victory like the one over the 5th Fleet at Molecay, the victory was phyrric in nature? Any civilization that could built 12 and maintain a high standard of living could certainly build a few more...

As I said about the Cylons, if they were winning, why didn't they have enough basestars for both the destruction of the 1st fleet AND the destruction of the Colonies. We only see three when Galactica makes it back, and we know that three are more than a match for a battlestar, especially a battlestar with no Vipers.

We also know that the Galactica has the practically undivided attention of the Cylon military machine (pardon the pun.) We know this because since the destruction of the Colonies, Cain has been raiding Gamoray. The Cylons have been unable to scrape together enough firepower to deal with him. Prior to the destruction, the Cylons were STILL unable to mass enough firepower to deal with him, though they were preoccupied with the five battlestars of the Colonial Fleet. They might have won at Molecay, but obviously enough of their forces didn't survive, or survive in good enough condition, to pursue the Pegasus. We know that because if they had, she'd have been run down and destroyed, heading away from any Colonial help as she did.

My additional thoughts,

G A
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Old March 2nd, 2005, 01:15 AM   #29
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Frontier Space Station?
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Old March 2nd, 2005, 02:19 PM   #30
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Frontier Space Station?
You mean like the Colonial verison of DS9?
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