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Old August 31st, 2004, 01:30 PM   #61
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Great points on this thread.

The colonials of TOS have faith and act in a religious manner but do they worship a god or God? I don't think TOS is really clear on the manner.

When they do the equivalent of invoking the name of God like we do in prayer they usually say ... "by the Lords of Kobol". I assume the Lords of Kobol were flesh and blood humans just like them. Is this a form of ancestor worship or are their "founding fathers" placed on some kind of pedestal.

How about the saying, "Sagan's sake"? Was "Sagan" a colonialism for God or was Sagan another flesh and blood person in colonial history?

Depending on how things are meant the colonials may have no real reference to a real god or gods and simply refer to a conflict between other advanced non-god beings or may be deeply religious believers in one supreme being who has lesser beings referred to as "angels" or beings of light in his service. One of these beings of light rebelled and is Iblis in the same vain as our own (Christian) belief system where Satan was a rebellious angel who is followed by a third of the original angels.

The mini is modeled on contemporary society. The cylons follow a religion loosely based on militant Islam. The colonials live in a secular state with a wide range of religious belief among their citizens that seems losely based on our Judeo-Christian society. Their holy book is also a history of their migration to their star system. How much can be believed literally is probably as debated as literal belief in our bible today. Some probably believe all the stories are false, some entirely true, some a historical document with no religious value, and some a spiritual guide to their lives.
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Old September 1st, 2004, 09:26 AM   #62
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I believe that, given what happened in War of the Gods and in Lost Planet of the Gods, that the old Lords of Kobol were flesh and blood rulers of the planet Kobol, very much like the pharaohs of ancient Egypt. According to the Mormon philosophy so prevalent in the series, they progressed into "angelic" beings of the cosmos..."as you are, we once were; as we are now, you may become."

The Sagan's sake reference was only put in there as a joke...I don't think it has any significance other than being a reference to astronomer Carl Sagan...it is kind of funny!
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Old September 1st, 2004, 11:37 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Charybdis
The Sagan's sake reference was only put in there as a joke...I don't think it has any significance other than being a reference to astronomer Carl Sagan...it is kind of funny!
I never noticed the "Sagan's sake" reference until I saw it mentioned at Colonial Fleets. It just blew right past me before. I figured it had to be an homage to Carl Sagan. I did wonder after seeing how it was used whether the writer in that episode was making an anti-religious quip or just being funny. Did Larson write that episode? Carl Sagan always seemed to be an anti-religious person and substituting his name in an expression that invokes God in our use I think was meant to express something. If it was meant as somthing more than a joke it could be a connection between Earth and the colonials. Sagan popularized space to many people. It could be possible that if TOS is set in the future and that the colonials are really descendants of Earth people (concept that Kobol = Earth) then Carl Sagan could have went from being a famous person to a cult like figure in the future.

Whatever the intention the use of the term adds some spice to TOS to those who realized it.
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Old September 1st, 2004, 12:00 PM   #64
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Oh, for Pete's sake.



Can you say "overanalyze"? I'm sure you can.



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Old September 1st, 2004, 12:06 PM   #65
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But - and I can't make this point clearly enough - any kind of portrayal of religion in any entertainment media - BSG, West Wing, Spongebob Squarepants - is going to be interpreted through the filter of our own belief system, which is one of the most intensely personal filters we have. We need to keep that in mind as we discuss this, too.

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Agreed. Each and every person posting in response to this thread replies to this subject based on their own beliefs, interpretations. Basically, we all see what want to see. Whether one believes that someone else's opinion is baseless is a moot point (regardless of where you sit on the GALACTICA fence) because, again, we are only expressing opinions.

With that said, may I offer my most humble opinions and observations?

Yes, the original series, in my humble opinion, had an overtly spiritual/religious underpinning.

The parallel that I would draw between our beloved TOS and the new, equally legitimate BATTLESTAR GALACTICA is this:

In TOS, it was clear that the Colonial's faith and religion was there. Adama did speak like a warrior/priest with the grandiose "Let the word go fotth...." invocation, and the inspirational "..known to us only through ancient writings." speech in SOASW. He did rebuke the council of the twelve when Sire Uri made the proposeal to surrender to the Cylons. But that is not the end all/be all of their religious trappings. Adama had proven time and again that he was the fleet's spiritual leader throughout ongoing episodes of TOS, making references to the "Book of the Word". There was also the conflict with Count Iblis. the encounters with the BOL's (which strikes me equivalently as an evolution of man, and as an angelic presence). The thing is , Classic BATTLESTAR GALACTICA started out with religious undertones, and continued to build on that as time went on.

In the new BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, religion is portrayed differently, yes. I do tend to liken the Cylon's beliefs to the "holy wars" of today. There is no Cylon parallel between TOS and TNS as far as religion goes. The parallel I suggest is that while the religion within the rag-tag fleet is there (just not as pronounced as in TOS), I believe that over time as the new series evolves, religion may end up taking a stronger role (just as it did in TOS). The classic series evolved until its end. The new series will evolve until its end. I now end the parallel.

It is my humble opinion that Adama (whom I do not believe to be an Aetheist, simply someone who does not overtly profess his beliefs in a higher power) will come to embrace faith, and rely strongly on Elosha, the Colonial priestess. Starbuck's prayer to the Lords of Kobol was heartfelt. She, like Adama, probably does not profess an overt belief in God or the Lords of Kobol. (Besides, no Aetheists in foxholes.) When she confesses her "fatal mistake" to Lee Adama, just before going on the recon through the Ragnar EM field, she realized that this could very well be the end, and that she would like to meet her Maker with a clear conscience.

As for whom Commander Adama lied to in the new BATTLESTAR GALACTICA is subject to conjecture as well. I tend to agree that Commander Adama lied to President Roslin. Adama clearly does not trust politicians nearly as much as his own people. Also, it is ambiguous in the miniseries as to whether or not he is aware of Roslin's terminal condition. He only knows that Roslin is a school teacher cum President. and that is still the way he views her. Why fully detail the course to/location of Earth to someone you don't trust? (Especially with the current Cylon threat) Why fully disclose the Fleet's most guarded secret to an academic cabinet member with newfound executive authority? As the series develops, we will learn (I am sure) who Adama really lied to.

Bottom line is, the miniseries is only the first step. The series is the next step. Over time, the series may well answer questions and fill in gaps left by the mini. There are those who will watch the mini and see for themselves whether or not it evolves in the way we hope it does. There are those who will not watch.

In either case , "There are those who believe..".one way or the other. And beliefs are nothing more than vehement opinions.

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Old September 1st, 2004, 12:09 PM   #66
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Doing my best "Church Lady" impersonation:


"Could it be....maybe....SAGAN?!"

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Old September 1st, 2004, 01:18 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martok2112
Doing my best "Church Lady" impersonation:


"Could it be....maybe....SAGAN?!"
My reply to that is:

"Isn't that spe - cial???"

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Old September 1st, 2004, 01:20 PM   #68
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Gemini....GREAT ANSWER!!!

Irreverently,
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Old September 1st, 2004, 01:23 PM   #69
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Dawg: Don't take away my over analyzing fun on a quiet day at work!


I never noticed the whole "Sagan's sake" when I watched TOS. The ONLY reason I ever caught it was because one of our colonial fleets members likes to use the expression.

Being that it was obviously intentionally put in TOS I just wondered from the vast knowledge base at the site if anyone knew if it was more than just a joke as mentioned before.

Why do we say for "Pete's sake"? I understand "God's sake" but "Pete's sake" must come from somewhere (Saint Peter?)

Anyone, anyone, Bueller, Bueller.

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Old September 1st, 2004, 01:50 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Marley
I don't think any "liberal" Christian would have too many probelms with religion in TOS.
Frankly, I've yet to see any conservative Christians object seriously to TOS except in the context of being critical of Mormon theology. In terms of the basic sympathy for the principles held by those of a traditional Judeo-Christian perspective, TOS is more sympathetic to those of a conservative bent, since in this society its Holy Book is meant to be taken as the literal truth and not as a mere allegory from myth the way theologians of a "liberal" bent would interpret the Bible.
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Old September 1st, 2004, 01:53 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antelope526
Dawg: Don't take away my over analyzing fun on a quiet day at work!
LOL! you spend too much time alone there with your thoughts Antelope!

Quote:
Originally Posted by antelope526
Why do we say for "Pete's sake"? I understand "God's sake" but "Pete's sake" must come from somewhere (Saint Peter?)

Anyone, anyone, Bueller, Bueller.
Hey Antelope I looked it up for you and out of curiosity! lol

This phrase and phrases like "for Pete's sake" are euphemisms for the phrases "for the love of God/Christ" or "for God's/ Christ's sake" and hail from a time when those phases were considered blasphemous. Nowadays phrases like "for the love of god" are commonly used, but the euphemisms are still used.


Why Pete? Most likely it is a reference to the catholic Saint Peter. Other phrases with similar origins are: "Zounds!" (archaic British slang), is a contraction of "christ's wounds", "oh my goodness" and "oh my gosh" for "oh my God", and "gosh darn it" for "God damn it"

http://members.aol.com/MorelandC/Phrases.htm
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Old September 1st, 2004, 01:56 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by PingPongBallEye
It doesn't -- at least for me -- have anything to do with Mormon doctrine; it has to do with the overwhelmingly materialist and humanist bent of the show.
Then we're not looking at the same program, because that's a description of Star Trek, not Galactica.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PingPongBallEye
Contrary to conventional Christian belief, the "gods" (or angels/devils if you prefer) are evolved, high-tech aliens, not supernatural beings.
I see no such indicator of that. They are of a different plane, totally beyond the comprehension of the normal human mind, and I see no contradiction in the way the SOL are presented as "angels" in the conventional frame of mind as servants of the Divine, representing part of the Good-Evil struggle that like it or not *is* explicitly mentioned in WOTG. For you to say there is nothing supernatural about them is not a tenable argument IMO.


"And the path to salvation for humanity lies in evolution and technology (what's the line? "As you are, we once were; as we are, you may become."), not through faith. This is a materialist (all things are explainable without recourse to the supernatural) and humanist (humanity is in charge of its own destiny) philosophy, not a "faith-based" one. "

Wrong. That's a quote from Mormon theology and it's the one aspect of blatant Mormon doctrine that holds to the idea of human beings becoming divine themselves that I do not agree with, but which I can forgive in the overall context of what else I see. What you can't call that is materialistic/humanism because that just isn't so, and that would also require you to disregard what Larson himself said about that.
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Old September 1st, 2004, 02:00 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg
Oh, for Pete's sake.



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HEY!!!!

How'd I get drawn into this????

*tapping foot, waiting for an answer!!!!
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Old September 1st, 2004, 02:01 PM   #74
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"The colonials of TOS have faith and act in a religious manner but do they worship a god or God? I don't think TOS is really clear on the manner."


Let 's see now.

"Is Ravashol God?" (GOIPZ)

"And there I was like God...." (Adama in Saga)

"Not even God?" (Adama, WOTG).

"Like riding in the hand of God." (Apollo, Hand of God)

Seems pretty obvious to me. All of those references are explicit in a way that has nothing to do with an "Oh my God" kind of statement that makes it clear about the prevailing monotheism of traditional Colonial religion.
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Old September 1st, 2004, 02:40 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
Seems pretty obvious to me. All of those references are explicit in a way that has nothing to do with an "Oh my God" kind of statement that makes it clear about the prevailing monotheism of traditional Colonial religion.
I agree. Again, I make the early Egyptian analogy. They referenced and prayed a lot to their “Lords of Kobol”, the gods, who the Egyptians considered ascended ancestors (HERU (Horus) was the first king of the united upper and lower kingdoms), but they also referenced and prayed to God.

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Old September 1st, 2004, 03:00 PM   #76
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I don't think the position of the Lords of Kobol in the religious heirarchy was ever really established beyond "the blessings of the Lords of Kobol" invocation Adama would use.

Given Larson's own membership in the LDS church, it could be easily inferred that the Lords of Kobol - the BOL - were the Mormon equivalent of Catholic saints, which are virtuous humans gone to their reward, the "next level" of existence, capable of miracles, indeed are god-like beings (but beings less than God).

I don't profess to understand (much less embrace) Mormon doctrine, but I had two brothers in that church at about that time.

Also Iblis is clearly the parallel of the Christian Satan - in fact, "Diabolis" is one of the names Apollo uses.

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Old September 1st, 2004, 03:14 PM   #77
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Iblis is also referenced as "the devil" in the Koran.
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 12:49 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg

Also Iblis is clearly the parallel of the Christian Satan - in fact, "Diabolis" is one of the names Apollo uses.

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Mephistopholes is another regognizable name for the devil, but I cannot identify the origins for that name.

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Old September 2nd, 2004, 05:42 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Marley
Iblis is also referenced as "the devil" in the Koran.
A snippet from one of my posts on the Battlestar Insignia thread:

According to the Glossary of Muslim Terms found at

http://www.digiserve.com/mystic/Muslim/glossary.html


Iblis (إبليس): The figure of Iblis in Islam is similar to that of Satan in Christianity. Although Iblis was an angelic being, his vision couldn't penetrate the outward form of a thing in order to apprehend its inward meaning. When Adam (the first human) was created, God commanded Iblis and all the other angels to prostrate themselves before Adam. Iblis refused to bow down to this new creation of God. Iblis reasoned to himself that he was superior to Adam since he was made of fire while Adam was only made of clay. In this one act of defiance Iblis introduced the sins of pride, envy, and disobedience into the world. When confronted by God, Iblis refused to take any responsibility for his sins; instead he accused God of leading him astray.
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 06:12 AM   #80
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The name "Diabolos" also used as a term for Iblis is the Greek term for the Devil found in Greek translations of the New Testament.
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 06:51 PM   #81
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Me:
Quote:
Contrary to conventional Christian belief, the "gods" (or angels/devils if you prefer) are evolved, high-tech aliens, not supernatural beings.
Eric:
Quote:
I see no such indicator of that. They are of a different plane, totally beyond the comprehension of the normal human mind, and I see no contradiction in the way the SOL are presented as "angels" in the conventional frame of mind as servants of the Divine, representing part of the Good-Evil struggle that like it or not *is* explicitly mentioned in WOTG. For you to say there is nothing supernatural about them is not a tenable argument IMO.
One question: since when do supernatural beings need a big crystal spaceship to fly around in? There is nothing of a "different plane" or "beyond comprehension" about the "angels" in War of the Gods. I'd have to go dig in my copy of Bartlett's for confirmation, but I think it was Asimov who noted that, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." There is no need (IMHO, of course) to resort to the supernatural or Divine to explain them. Certainly, one can attribute their powers to Divinity, but one can also attribute them to more natural sources -- and I tend to shave with Occam's Razor.

Me again:
Quote:
"And the path to salvation for humanity lies in evolution and technology (what's the line? "As you are, we once were; as we are, you may become."), not through faith. This is a materialist (all things are explainable without recourse to the supernatural) and humanist (humanity is in charge of its own destiny) philosophy, not a "faith-based" one. "
Eric:
Quote:
Wrong. That's a quote from Mormon theology and it's the one aspect of blatant Mormon doctrine that holds to the idea of human beings becoming divine themselves that I do not agree with, but which I can forgive in the overall context of what else I see. What you can't call that is materialistic/humanism because that just isn't so, and that would also require you to disregard what Larson himself said about that.
"As you are, we once were..." isn't a quote from Mormon theology, though it's close. The actual quote is, "As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be." It's attributed to a former LDS president, Lorenzo Snow.* You're correct in that it deals with the idea of humans becoming divine, but filtered through the SF sieve I mentioned earlier (exit "God," enter "we," meaning the aliens/angels/whatever they are), it takes on a wholly new meaning. Maybe they are representatives of God...or maybe they're an advanced group of aliens flying around in a big snowflake...saying man could become like them. Whatever Larson may have said since, the presentation in the show is completely consistent with a natural (not supernatural) explaination.

(* just a footnote: I mean neither to endorse nor disparage Mormons. I am an atheist. I have no interest in promoting or denying any religion, or even my own heathen godlessness . When it comes to the Divine, y'all are on your own!)
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 08:01 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PingPongBallEye
Certainly, one can attribute their powers to Divinity, but one can also attribute them to more natural sources -- and I tend to shave with Occam's Razor.
Ah…be careful with that shave though. Remember that Occam’s razor makes no claim as to the truth of any hypothesis, but instead distinguishes that which should be tested first, as it will be the easiest to disprove.


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Old September 2nd, 2004, 08:07 PM   #83
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"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
I think you will find that it was A.C. Clarke that coined that phrase.
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 08:32 PM   #84
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Quote:
"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Which makes one wonder if Penn and Teller are from a civilization far more advanced than our own...


...or not.
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Old September 2nd, 2004, 09:53 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PingPongBallEye
Me:
One question: since when do supernatural beings need a big crystal spaceship to fly around in? There is nothing of a "different plane" or "beyond comprehension" about the "angels" in War of the Gods.
By whose definition? Yours? I would submit that there's a lot that remained hard to fathom and grasp about them, just as is true for all those who operate on a different plane and who are being explicitly presented as one step removed from the Almighty Himself, as things were presented. Besides, for you to pooh-pooh the notion requires ignoring the obvious points already noted regarding the person of Iblis himself, the nature of the struggle as "Good-Evil" as defined in the closing sequence of the episode, not to mention Larson's own comments on the subject, and I think from here the trend is pretty obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PingPongBallEye
There is no need (IMHO, of course) to resort to the supernatural or Divine to explain them. Certainly, one can attribute their powers to Divinity, but one can also attribute them to more natural sources -- and I tend to shave with Occam's Razor.
Except that in your case, you're ignoring the intent of those who created the episode in question and transposing your own perspective onto it, and I think that's why I have a hard time with your arguments. That isn't how the principles of Occam's Razor works. You have tested the hypothesis through what comes off as a very selective use of the evidence before you as opposed to to the totality of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PingPongBallEye
"As you are, we once were..." isn't a quote from Mormon theology, though it's close. The actual quote is, "As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be." It's attributed to a former LDS president, Lorenzo Snow.* You're correct in that it deals with the idea of humans becoming divine, but filtered through the SF sieve I mentioned earlier !)
I have to reiterate my point, that you are ignoring Larson's own words on this subject. He was harkening to that exact phrase when he wrote the line, so why don't we at least get a concession regarding the fact that your spin on this is merely your desire as an atheist to reinterpret WOTG along atheist lines? As a consevative Christian (and non-Mormon) I have to acknowledge the blatant use of Mormon doctrine in an episode because the authors speak of where they come from on that matter, and any harmonizing I then do to see Galactica as totally in synch with my own Christian perspective, must then be done with that caveat, and I'm afraid I'm not seeing that in your case.
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Old September 3rd, 2004, 02:32 PM   #86
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One question: since when do supernatural beings need a big crystal spaceship to fly around in? There is nothing of a "different plane" or "beyond comprehension" about the "angels" in War of the Gods.


By whose definition? Yours? I would submit that there's a lot that remained hard to fathom and grasp about them, just as is true for all those who operate on a different plane and who are being explicitly presented as one step removed from the Almighty Himself, as things were presented.
Well, for someone who believes they are hard to fathom and grasp, you don't seem to have any trouble defining them! But again, seriously, why do angels need a spaceship? Well, I'll give you the answer: because this is an outer space shoot 'em up, not Palestine of 2,000 years ago. Which gets to the heart of our discussion, IMHO...
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There is no need (IMHO, of course) to resort to the supernatural or Divine to explain them. Certainly, one can attribute their powers to Divinity, but one can also attribute them to more natural sources -- and I tend to shave with Occam's Razor.

Except that in your case, you're ignoring the intent of those who created the episode in question and transposing your own perspective onto it, and I think that's why I have a hard time with your arguments. That isn't how the principles of Occam's Razor works. You have tested the hypothesis through what comes off as a very selective use of the evidence before you as opposed to to the totality of things.
And this is point where we're talking past each other, Eric. I've measured my hypothesis against what was shown on the TV show. Larson may well have intended to create a faith-based series; what I am saying is that he did not succeed. Yes, what was actually presented to the viewing public did employ a great deal of religious style, from Biblical-sounding dialogue to plots pieced together from stories of Noah, Moses, and the Mormon journey to Utah to a grand battle between forces of good and evil. But it's all been stripped out of its sacred context, and then placed within a SF action/adventure setting that has fundamental conflicts with a religious viewpoint.

Consider the Biblical story of the Exodus from Egypt, clearly a source of inspiration for Saga of a Star World. When the armies of Pharoh come against Moses and the Hebrews, what happens? God parts the sea, allowing the Hebrews to escape, and then causes it to crash in again, crushing the Egyptians. When the wandering tribes need bread, manna falls from the heavens; when they need water, it flows from a rock. The core message is that deliverance comes through God, and He will provide it if His people only have faith.

Now look at Saga. When the Cylons, like the Egyptians, come against the rag-tag fugitive fleet, what happens? Does Adama invoke the protection of God, Who then promptly smites the fleet's chrome adversaries? Well, of course not, that wouldn't make for much of an action/adventure series. They launch Vipers and we get a big space battle. When food in the fleet is running low, does Adama invoke God, Who then causes bread to rain down from the bulkheads? Of course not; instead the Viper pilots comb the fleet to redistribute what food there is fairly. When the fleet is low on fuel, does Adama strike a staff against a pipe to produce a miraculous flow of tylium? Nope, they have to go to Carrilon to find it.

The epic storyline of the Bible is there, but the moral lesson has been reversed. At every point where there Biblical story emphasizes the power of faith, Saga emphasizes technology and human solutions. The religious elements have been reduced to window dressing; they've been stripped of all religious context, and end up supporting precisely the opposite position they did originally.
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I have to reiterate my point, that you are ignoring Larson's own words on this subject. He was harkening to that exact phrase when he wrote the line, so why don't we at least get a concession regarding the fact that your spin on this is merely your desire as an atheist to reinterpret WOTG along atheist lines? As a consevative Christian (and non-Mormon) I have to acknowledge the blatant use of Mormon doctrine in an episode because the authors speak of where they come from on that matter, and any harmonizing I then do to see Galactica as totally in synch with my own Christian perspective, must then be done with that caveat, and I'm afraid I'm not seeing that in your case.
The key word here is "doctrine," I think. I don't see any Mormon doctrine; I don't see any doctrine at all in the original series. I see no masses, hear no prayers. There are no hymns, no holy observances, no Divine commandments or religious laws. There are no priests or monks or holy men/women. The context necessary to understand lines like "as you are, we were..." isn't present. God's robes are there, but He Himself has been instructed to exit stage right. Wouldn't want to tick someone in Peoria off.

I agree with you that Larson set out to do a sort of "Mormons in space." I'm not attempting to spin or reinterpret anything. I'm just saying that that wasn't what showed up in the final product.
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Old September 3rd, 2004, 03:31 PM   #87
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why do angels need a spaceship? ...

Consider the possibility that the angels, i.e., Beings of Light, do not NEED a spaceship but, use it only they make contact with the Colonials.

Gentlemen,

Some points of your arguments are overlapping --


Quote:
Originally Posted by PingPongBallEye

Contrary to conventional Christian belief, the "gods" (or angels/devils if you prefer) are evolved, high-tech aliens, not supernatural beings.
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Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

They are of a different plane, totally beyond the comprehension of the normal human mind, and I see no contradiction in the way the SOL are presented as "angels" in the conventional frame of mind as servants of the Divine, representing part of the Good-Evil struggle that like it or not *is* explicitly mentioned in WOTG.
These statements can both be true.

Example, how would WE appear, to someone of the 1st century AD? (Given our advancements in technology, we could very well appear as "gods" to them.)

Another example (scifi-related - ST:TOS--episode: The Paradise Syndrome) -- when Kirk saved the life of the Indian boy, by giving him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. Kirk was revered as a "god", by the Indians (who had never seen this type of treatment employed). For Kirk, though, "breathing life into the child" was just a simple First-aid procedure.

It's all in appearances and perceptions.
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Old September 3rd, 2004, 03:48 PM   #88
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Consider the possibility that the angels, i.e., Beings of Light, do not NEED a spaceship but, use it only they make contact with the Colonials.

Gentlemen,

Some points of your arguments are overlapping --






These statements can both be true.

Example, how would WE appear, to someone of the 1st century AD? (Given our advancements in technology, we could very well appear as "gods" to them.)

Another example (scifi-related - ST:TOS--episode: The Paradise Syndrome) -- when Kirk saved the life of the Indian boy, by giving him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. Kirk was revered as a "god", by the Indians (who had never seen this type of treatment employed). For Kirk, though, "breathing life into the child" was just a simple First-aid procedure.

It's all in appearances and perceptions.

Well stated, BST. Well stated indeed.


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Old September 3rd, 2004, 04:14 PM   #89
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Well, for someone who believes they are hard to fathom and grasp, you don't seem to have any trouble defining them!
Defining them in general terms, not in minute specifics, in which you presume them to be on the same level as normal because they "use a spaceship."

Quote:
Originally Posted by PingPongBallEye
I've measured my hypothesis against what was shown on the TV show. .
Except that when you do this, you keep leaving out way too much that argues against your hypothesis of materialism/humanism, such as the not coincidental names used for the Devil figure of Iblis, the dialogue at the end of the episode, and the frequent references to belief in a single God as used by Adama and others in the series. This is where your attempts to argue that Galactica is humanist in the blatant humanist tradition of Star Trek does not IMO hold water, using that very same Occam's razor approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PingPongBallEye
Larson may well have intended to create a faith-based series; what I am saying is that he did not succeed..
Sorry, but I can't accept this line of reasoning. "Original intent" is an idea that IMO works just as good for Galactica as it should for the U.S. Constitution (but that alas, opens up another can of worms that I won't get into), and if we don't respect the perspective of where the author comes from, we are not doing our own powers of analysis any justice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PingPongBallEye
Consider the Biblical story of the Exodus from Egypt, clearly a source of inspiration for Saga of a Star World. When the armies of Pharoh come against Moses and the Hebrews, what happens? God parts the sea, allowing the Hebrews to escape, and then causes it to crash in again, crushing the Egyptians. When the wandering tribes need bread, manna falls from the heavens; when they need water, it flows from a rock. The core message is that deliverance comes through God, and He will provide it if His people only have faith.
Or, conversely God lifts up people of faith to lead during times of crisis, who learn to overcome their inner sense of torment, as Adama did, and as Moses had to when he was at first reluctant to answer God's call even after hearing the message from the Burning Bush. Not every act of God in providing for his people appears through the form of what the mortal mind would call a miracle. What you keep calling a "human solution" conveniently ignores the fact that looking for a goal called Earth only rests in the form of placing faith in the truth of the Holy Word, and seeing as how the Galactica is able to safely proceed on its journey in spite of a ton of obstacles placed in their path over the course of a season's worth of stories, one can just as easily look back on the series as a whole and say God was there watching out for their safety and lifting up people of integrity to do what was necessary to help the people through times of crisis.


"I don't see any Mormon doctrine"

Sealing ceremonies, the Quorum of the Twelve concept, the SOL remarks.....the list I am afraid is quite numerous.

"I see no masses, hear no prayers. There are no hymns, no holy observances, no Divine commandments or religious laws. "

The Book of the Word, the hymn of praise filmed for Saga but cut. Adama holding his medallion to Tigh in LPOTG as "the symbol of our faith"..........

I think the evidence is there to vindicate the idea of Galactica as a series steeped in the pro-religion element, especially since it also presupposes the decidedly unhumanistic idea of mankind (1) not being able to prosper and "evolve" into a state where technology is the answer to everything. Consult the cut scene from LPOTG but present in the telemovie edition where the fall of Kobol is directly attributed to the abuse of technology. Consider Adama's comment in Saga where he sighs, "No wonder our world fell apart." The Colonies were at their most advanced, yet their technology and superior skills couldn't save them from destruction. That is anything but a vindication of the materialist argument.
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Old September 3rd, 2004, 04:44 PM   #90
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