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Old November 29th, 2006, 06:47 AM   #1
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WTF? Borg on the Galactica???!!!!!

What would happen if the Borg of Star Trek fame discovered the fleet and tried to assimilate it? do the Colonials have any hope of resistance?
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Old November 29th, 2006, 06:57 AM   #2
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No .. I would thing they be quickly assimilated .. The Galactica may last a bit be not for long .. Viper would quickly be destroyed or worse assimilated .. IMHO
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Old November 29th, 2006, 08:38 AM   #3
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Funnily enough, there is a CGI fanfilm in pre-production that will explore this very issue.
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Old November 29th, 2006, 08:50 AM   #4
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really ? ..should be interesting
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Old November 30th, 2006, 08:08 AM   #5
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A better question would be, could the Borg assimilate another machine race like the Cylon Empire?

Could be very interesting seeing as both are quite dominate in their respective series as a powerful force to overcome. The Borg might have a technological advantage over the Cylons in a battle, but the Cylons numbers game with Baseships and hordes of Raiders might surprise the Borg and they could be overrun by the Cylons. The Borg Queen might find her match in the Cylon's Imperious Leader who's origins are far more darker than hers.

The Borg facing other movie/TV series villains would also be a great 'what if' scenario to play out as well here.

The Borg Vs The Cybermen? (Dr Who)

The Borg Vs The Daleks (Dr Who)

The Borg Vs The Vistors ('V')

The Borg Vs The Peacekeepers (Farscape)

The Borg Vs The Commonwealth (Andromeda)

The Borg Vs The Goa'uld (Stargate SG-1)

The Borg Vs The Wraith (Stargate Atlantis)

The Borg Vs The Replicators (StargateSG-1/Atlantis)

The Borg Vs The Ori (Stargate SG-1)

The Borg Vs The Federation (Blake's 7)

The Borg Vs The Shadows (Babylon 5)

The Borg Vs The Drakh (Babylon 5/Crusade)

The Borg Vs The Hand (Babylon 5 - Legend Of The Rangers)

The Borg Vs The Imperial Empire (Star Wars)

The Borg Vs The Necromongers (The Chronicles of Riddick)


Now those kind of confrontations is something any fan can debate at any great length here now isn't it!



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Old November 30th, 2006, 08:11 AM   #6
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good night .. that some thinking
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Old November 30th, 2006, 08:21 AM   #7
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Well... why not. Doesn't sci-fi these days have multiple choice villains in various TV shows and movies, mans gotta bust out the old "sci-fi villains list" some time sooner or later. If i didn't do it somebody else on here would've beat me to it, its that simple!

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Old December 2nd, 2006, 12:17 AM   #8
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The Borg Vs The IRS
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Old December 2nd, 2006, 01:05 AM   #9
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It would be interesting to see how they'd handle the shadows from B5 ??
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Old December 2nd, 2006, 06:50 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranis
It would be interesting to see how they'd handle the shadows from B5 ??
In a word, die.

Shadow bio-technology is based on living death and on a form of technological subversion far more insidious than the Borg ever dared dreamed.

Here is the background;

http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=236

http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=157

http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9

http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=239

http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=240

One note; you should be versed in virtual particles to understand why a Jason Ironheart or a Shadow would look at a Borg and laugh.

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Old December 4th, 2006, 05:57 AM   #11
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I suppose this could be the basis of a new thread, but since we seem to be on the subject.............

has anyone here ever actually calculated how much firepower a Battlestar posesses? I've seen figures for a Stardestroyer bandied about,(of course they have the advantage of canon tech manuals and such things) but no such thing recently for a Battlestar. I am assuming Damocles or WarMachine may be able to provide some info on this subject
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Old December 4th, 2006, 06:39 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcard
I suppose this could be the basis of a new thread, but since we seem to be on the subject.............

has anyone here ever actually calculated how much firepower a Battlestar posesses? I've seen figures for a Stardestroyer bandied about,(of course they have the advantage of canon tech manuals and such things) but no such thing recently for a Battlestar. I am assuming Damocles or WarMachine may be able to provide some info on this subject
Hello Wildcard,
In my travels around the net, I happened across this very interesting site. I hope this helps what your'e looking for. http://www.tecr.com/galactica/ Best regards.
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Old December 4th, 2006, 11:09 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBSG4ever
Hello Wildcard,
In my travels around the net, I happened across this very interesting site. I hope this helps what your'e looking for. http://www.tecr.com/galactica/ Best regards.
In the actual loadouts, I would need to spend hours on the episodes HoG, GoIPZ, Living Legend and so forth.

But just from memory, I would suggest that the Alligator's particle beam weapons(flak guns) would have sufficient work output to totally vitiate [disintegrate to small non-noticable fragments] a 737 equivalent object in one shot at an observed range of at least 10-20 battlestar lengths.

Missile weapons that the Pegasus launched observed in Living legend carried nuclear warheads powerful enough to chain off on impact a double-decker sanddollar estimated at 2x -3x the Alligator's mass.

To put that into modern terms the Alligator's flak guns have the output of a 40.5 cm. naval gun's explosive shell. That is about 22 megajoules output work delivered to the target kinetically.

The missile warhead is a far more serious event, as the nearest equivalent to the kind of weapon that destroyed that basestar in the US arsenal would be equivalent to a MK41 .

10.5e19joules or a 20+ megatonnes of TNT equivalent was the yield of that device..

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Old December 4th, 2006, 11:29 AM   #14
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Oh come on! Its not like you have anything better to do. I'm sure you could do all of your research and have a reply ready for us by say.......wednesday!
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Old December 6th, 2006, 07:23 AM   #15
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The only reason I can come up with that the Borg would bother at all with the fleet is to replenish their "life-stock". The Borg don't just assimilate any old race that happens along. They assimilate unique technologies... technologies that are useful to the Borg. The fleet is nothing but a bunch of floating tin cans full of bio-mass. They don't even posess transporter technology. Heck, they run their ships on what amounts to advanced chemical rockets!

I don't think the Fleet would even warrant a second scan from the Borg.

Now, the Ship Of Lights on the other hand...

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Old December 6th, 2006, 10:24 AM   #16
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Default I respectfully disagree;

Quote:
Originally Posted by spcglider
The only reason I can come up with that the Borg would bother at all with the fleet is to replenish their "life-stock". The Borg don't just assimilate any old race that happens along. They assimilate unique technologies... technologies that are useful to the Borg. The fleet is nothing but a bunch of floating tin cans full of bio-mass. They don't even posess transporter technology. Heck, they run their ships on what amounts to advanced chemical rockets!

I don't think the Fleet would even warrant a second scan from the Borg.

Now, the Ship Of Lights on the other hand...

-G
I don't know spcglider;

Reasons to technologically investigate the Alligator;

1. artificial gravity.
2. tylium energizers-that alone is sufficient to want to gut the 'gator'. What kind of power source can boost a stick iron rocket to 1/10th c?
3. turbolasers? What kind of particle beams do the Colonials use? Would it be useful to a retarded Berman Drek(TM) species still equiped with "cutting" beams and NDF "phasers"?
4. Solonite. Whatever that was; it was powerful enough to burst a world asunder by simply catching fire. The Colonials know how to mine and use it safely. It is their explosive of choice.
5. And there is the Cylon side of the equation.
a. Centurions are smarter than Borg drones-not by much, but they are an ayeye worth investigating.
b. The Ravishol pulse cannon is probably superior to any phaser I've seen.
c. The Cylons have some kind of propulsion system that compares favorably with whatever the Borg use.
d. Both the Cylons and the Colonials have superior ranged fire control systems to any Berman Drek(TM) technology I've seen.
e. and there is the Viper and Raider technology to consider.


There is enough superior technology there for the Borg to want to investigate the R/T fleet and their pursuers.

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Old December 11th, 2006, 09:23 AM   #17
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Damocles,
I don't disagree that I would prefer to live in the Galactica universe than the ST universe, but I do disagree that the Borg would find the RTF even remotely interesting. I don't see, in typical episode evidence, that the technology of Galactica is "more advanced" than Star Trek. Don't get me wrong: I'm no fan of Berman's Gordian Knot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles
I don't know spcglider;

Reasons to technologically investigate the Alligator;

1. artificial gravity.
We've seen the Borg already have an efficient artificial gravity system.
Quote:
2. tylium energizers-that alone is sufficient to want to gut the 'gator'. What kind of power source can boost a stick iron rocket to 1/10th c?
They already have a power system superior to that. Especially for moving ships around. And they don't have to constantly go digging around on planets for massive amounts of raw fuel to push their box or sphere or dodecahedrons across space.
Quote:
3. turbolasers? What kind of particle beams do the Colonials use? Would it be useful to a retarded Berman Drek(TM) species still equiped with "cutting" beams and NDF "phasers"?
Qite frankly, I don't know. Those "cutting" beams sure seem to be able to whack up federation vessels with relative ease.
We'd have to see whether or not turbolasers could penetrate Borg sheilds. If they do, the Borg MIGHT want to know how they do it, but they could discern that by capturing ONE viper. No need to bother with the gator. Why stir up a nest of bees when you can learn everything you need to know from one drone?
Quote:
4. Solonite. Whatever that was; it was powerful enough to burst a world asunder by simply catching fire. The Colonials know how to mine and use it safely. It is their explosive of choice.
That was a planet basically MADE of tylium. It obviously never experienced thunderstorms or meteor impacts in it's history or it would have blown up long before the Galactica arrived. In fact, I wonder if they made Starbuck stop smoking while on Carrillon? One errant flick of his ash and KABOOM!!!
Quote:
5. And there is the Cylon side of the equation.
a. Centurions are smarter than Borg drones-not by much, but they are an ayeye worth investigating.
b. The Ravishol pulse cannon is probably superior to any phaser I've seen.
c. The Cylons have some kind of propulsion system that compares favorably with whatever the Borg use.
None of which have anything to do with the RTF. Though it would be VERY interesting to see the Borg and the Cylon Empire go toe-to-toe. Much like the Daleks and the Cybermen in the last season of New Dr. Who.
Quote:
d. Both the Cylons and the Colonials have superior ranged fire control systems to any Berman Drek(TM) technology I've seen.
Yes! It's made of magic! And according to the episodes, highly unstable and inconsistent. That must be why they allow pilots to be the interface between the readout in the cockpit and the trigger button.
Quote:
e. and there is the Viper and Raider technology to consider.
Do you mean fightercraft in general? Much more efficient and responsive fighter-style ships exist in the Star Trek universe. The viper is basically a chemical rocket and the Raider requires a minimum of TWO pilots to function. Don't see much in the way of improvement there.
Quote:
There is enough superior technology there for the Borg to want to investigate the R/T fleet and their pursuers.
I dunno... gonna hafta give some darned good examples if we're going to try comparing apples to oranges.

-G
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Old December 11th, 2006, 06:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spcglider
Damocles,
I don't disagree that I would prefer to live in the Galactica universe than the ST universe, but I do disagree that the Borg would find the RTF even remotely interesting. I don't see, in typical episode evidence, that the technology of Galactica is "more advanced" than Star Trek. Don't get me wrong: I'm no fan of Berman's Gordian Knot.
Gordon;
I don't mean to say that the Colonials have superior technology to the Borg (though they do, ). I mean that the Colonial technology demonstrates interesting physical phenomena and qualities that I would immediately investigate.

Quote:
We've seen the Borg already have an efficient artificial gravity system.
As do the Feds and virtually everybody the Borg bump into. What you and I recognize as a problem that makes the Alcubierre drive look like child's play seems to be to them and every other science fiction entity is as simple as solving a quadratic equation.

Quote:
They already have a power system superior to that. Especially for moving ships around. And they don't have to constantly go digging around on planets for massive amounts of raw fuel to push their box or sphere or dodecahedrons across space.
Not with rockets they don't. Just work through this problem. Try accelerating a 100,000,000 ton mass rocket to 10 kilometers per second in less than ten minutes using just six six rocket motors from speed zero using stick iron as a propellant mass. Postulating tylium as the energizer gives you work efficiencies and energy densitiies impossible for even matter/anti-matter reactions as the basis for a rocket motor, given the lack of visible reaction mass tanks on the Alligator . We know of nothing more efficient in this universe for the conversion of mass to energy. So unless those Colonials have zero point energy focal taps, or tylium is virtual matter, they aren't ever going to move as easily as they do on film using rockets. And from the visual evidence we see the Colonials use rockets.

As for FTL, the assumption I've always made was that they wormholed their way across space, which is about as similar to the Berman Drek(TM) transwarp hub technology as to be a distinction without a difference. Only their ship's are smaller and they don't need a vast physical tramline generator to do it!

Quote:
Quite frankly, I don't know. Those "cutting" beams sure seem to be able to whack up federation vessels with relative ease.
We'd have to see whether or not turbolasers could penetrate Borg sheilds. If they do, the Borg MIGHT want to know how they do it, but they could discern that by capturing ONE viper. No need to bother with the gator. Why stir up a nest of bees when you can learn everything you need to know from one drone?
Tritanium is a Dreknobabble word for Composition 4 Duraluminum( a weak aviation aluminum alloy) or what I like to think of as Federation hull metal. From the collision of the Ent-E into the Scimitar, you get a n impact energy of about 10e5 joules per square meter or about two orders of magnitude less than the work you need to do to get through a square centimeter surface of BURLINGTON IV on an Abrams tank. Or to take another comparison, when the USS San Francisco hit that mountain a year and a half ago it did about four times as much work to itself per square meter of 75 mm thick HY 80 STEEL and had less wrinkles and far fewer holes than the Ent-E with its Fed hull metal. Cutting a Fed up with a blow torch, much less a cutting laser would not be that big of a deal, given the material properties illustrated by "Fed hull metal".
Quote:
That was a planet basically MADE of tylium. It obviously never experienced thunderstorms or meteor impacts in it's history or it would have blown up long before the Galactica arrived. In fact, I wonder if they made Starbuck stop smoking while on Carrillon? One errant flick of his ash and KABOOM!!!

Solonite is listed in the Battlestar canon as a nonnuclrar explosive. Tylium is a fuel which powers Colonial rockets. That by itself is why I regard solonite as the tylium precursor as both exhibit the properties of virtual matter.

To illustrate what I mean;

http://www.edwardmuller.com/right17.htm

It takes roughly 10e32 joules to shatter an earth-sized planet.

33.0e19 joules equals the yield of one ton of matter and one ton of antimatter mixed together. 10e16 tons of matter and antimatter need to be combined to shatter the Earth. Or to put it another way, I would have to hurl an iron ball about the size of New Hampshire at the Earth at 0.75 c to achieve the same effect.

Tylium, in its solonite precursor form, was scattered in deposits across the surface of the casino planet. Boom indeed. What I have never worked out is how it could be more volatile than hydrogen and oxygen chemically. it has to be a high density reaction that appears to be combustible but is not. Hence virtual matter transformation into a free hadron state. KABOOM!

Quote:
None of which have anything to do with the RTF. Though it would be VERY interesting to see the Borg and the Cylon Empire go toe-to-toe. Much like the Daleks and the Cybermen in the last season of New Dr. Who.
Dumb as the Cylons are I put them a step or two above the Feds or the Borg in the intelligence department, if for no other rerason that they have an original technology of their own(the Feds got theirs from Vulcan; the Borg stole theirs) which is superior to the Colonials which they can call their own. Some kind of reactionless thruster or gravitational propulsion must account for the double decker sanddollar. Also for all the clumsiness of their Raiders, those rockets are faster and more agile than the Fed equivalents. As a native derived technology this puts the Cylons ahead of the Borg and the Feds.
Quote:
Yes! It's made of magic! And according to the episodes, highly unstable and inconsistent. That must be why they allow pilots to be the interface between the readout in the cockpit and the trigger button.
Story driven it may be but the computer corrected lead for a jinking object in space so that you can walk fire in against a fast object at up to fifty Viper lengths range iis something no Fed shuttlecraft or starship wsa able to do, Borg neither.

At least the Cylons come close.

Quote:
Do you mean fightercraft in general? Much more efficient and responsive fighter-style ships exist in the Star Trek universe. The viper is basically a chemical rocket and the Raider requires a minimum of TWO pilots to function. Don't see much in the way of improvement there.
Do you mean Fed runabouts and shuttles? Please explain how those vehicles are more agile than Vipers, or more effective? The closest thing the Feds have to a fiughter are those robot drone craft that Borg cube splashed as it rocketed past Mars. Pathetic.

Quote:
I dunno... gonna hafta give some darned good examples if we're going to try comparing apples to oranges.
Apples=Colonials
Oranges=Cylons
Rotten tomatoes=Berman Drek(TM)

Talk to you later, G.

Frank

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Old December 13th, 2006, 01:14 AM   #19
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Might be interesting to see the Ravishol Pulsar cut loose at a Borg Cube.
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Old December 13th, 2006, 08:13 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles
Gordon;
I don't mean to say that the Colonials have superior technology to the Borg (though they do, ). I mean that the Colonial technology demonstrates interesting physical phenomena and qualities that I would immediately investigate.
Just like I would choose Voltron over Gundam as my personal giant robot any day... because Voltron has magical weapons and can repair itself from scene to scene whilst Gundam is CONSTANTLY in the repair shop getting a new arm bolted on. Colonial technology is MAGICAL. So in that sense, I'm sure the Borg would be curious. But like I said, it would be far more interesting to the Borg to investigate the Ship Of Lights... which can outrun a colonial ship in a hot micron. Or even better... team up with Count Iblis (I mean, wouldn't the Borg just be his PERFECT cup o' tea?... subservient, blindly loyal, ugly as sin...)

Quote:
As do the Feds and virtually everybody the Borg bump into. What you and I recognize as a problem that makes the Alcubierre drive look like child's play seems to be to them and every other science fiction entity is as simple as solving a quadratic equation.
Maguffin. McGuffin. Miguoughffin. That's what it's called.


Quote:
Not with rockets they don't. Just work through this problem. Try accelerating a 100,000,000 ton mass rocket to 10 kilometers per second in less than ten minutes using just six six rocket motors from speed zero using stick iron as a propellant mass. Postulating tylium as the energizer gives you work efficiencies and energy densitiies impossible for even matter/anti-matter reactions as the basis for a rocket motor, given the lack of visible reaction mass tanks on the Alligator . We know of nothing more efficient in this universe for the conversion of mass to energy. So unless those Colonials have zero point energy focal taps, or tylium is virtual matter, they aren't ever going to move as easily as they do on film using rockets. And from the visual evidence we see the Colonials use rockets.
Your assesment of speed isn't in question. WHY would the Borg want rockets? Even fast ones? Its not a conveniently contained technology like Warp Drive. In order to adopt it, they'd have to re-write everything they do. They'd have to create a whole new infrastructure to support it. Its the exact same reason why we don't already have hydrogen powered cars. There's no need to as long as we don't have an impetus to change over to a different system. And without an infrastructure to support that system, the Borg would suddenly find themselves competing with the Cylon Empire for tylium... and according to your estimation, the Cylons are superior, so it would be a losing battle to begin with.

Quote:
As for FTL, the assumption I've always made was that they wormholed their way across space, which is about as similar to the Berman Drek(TM) transwarp hub technology as to be a distinction without a difference. Only their ship's are smaller and they don't need a vast physical tramline generator to do it!
Once again, magic. We are simply supposed to believe that you can get anywhere in the universe in 5 minutes if you drive there fast enough. We never see evidence of wormholing or even spacewarp for that matter. They just simply arrive at a new destination and proclaim "wow! That was a long trip!"


Quote:
Tritanium is a Dreknobabble word for Composition 4 Duraluminum( a weak aviation aluminum alloy) or what I like to think of as Federation hull metal. From the collision of the Ent-E into the Scimitar, you get a n impact energy of about 10e5 joules per square meter or about two orders of magnitude less than the work you need to do to get through a square centimeter surface of BURLINGTON IV on an Abrams tank. Or to take another comparison, when the USS San Francisco hit that mountain a year and a half ago it did about four times as much work to itself per square meter of 75 mm thick HY 80 STEEL and had less wrinkles and far fewer holes than the Ent-E with its Fed hull metal. Cutting a Fed up with a blow torch, much less a cutting laser would not be that big of a deal, given the material properties illustrated by "Fed hull metal".
Okay... you win. You are obviously a better B.S.er than I am. To be able to come up with that off the cuff qualifies you as a first rate artist. To compare real-world ship hull damage to special effects fantasy damage to a miniature model and quantify the comparison without batting an eyelash... I bow, most humbly, to the superior teller of tales.

Quote:
Solonite is listed in the Battlestar canon as a nonnuclrar explosive. Tylium is a fuel which powers Colonial rockets. That by itself is why I regard solonite as the tylium precursor as both exhibit the properties of virtual matter.
Except that Tylium is refined into Solium... which is the fuel that powers the fleet. Not the other way around. That's canon.


Quote:
33.0e19 joules equals the yield of one ton of matter and one ton of antimatter mixed together. 10e16 tons of matter and antimatter need to be combined to shatter the Earth. Or to put it another way, I would have to hurl an iron ball about the size of New Hampshire at the Earth at 0.75 c to achieve the same effect.
Is that a ball of iron (spherical) with a constant external dimension equal to that of the widest point of New Hampshire? Or is that a ball of iron the diameter of the overall compacted surface area 1mm thick of New Hampshire?


Quote:
Dumb as the Cylons are I put them a step or two above the Feds or the Borg in the intelligence department, if for no other rerason that they have an original technology of their own(the Feds got theirs from Vulcan; the Borg stole theirs) which is superior to the Colonials which they can call their own. Some kind of reactionless thruster or gravitational propulsion must account for the double decker sanddollar.
Yet it still runs on refined tylium. At least that's what we are led to believe in the show.


Quote:
Also for all the clumsiness of their Raiders, those rockets are faster and more agile than the Fed equivalents. As a native derived technology this puts the Cylons ahead of the Borg and the Feds.
Towards the end of the run of ST TNG we were "treated" to an episode where Wesley Crusher (shudder) is involved in a training exercise and a aerial display flying a one-man fighter-style craft. They discussed maneuvers that would have been impossible even for the Blue Angels. I'm sorry, but there is no way, from existing footage and if you suspend dis-belief to allow a Thunderbird to function in space like a Viper does (wings, jet intakes, braking flaps, etc.), that you'll convince me that Cylon Raiders can outmaneuver a Thunderbird. And Wesley's group was doing just that in their little Federation craft. If the Federation doesn't have highly maneuverable craft for combat (or otherwise), then why are the training vessels so superior to everything else we've seen? The existence of such training vessels would indicate that highly advanced and maneuverable fighter-style craft also exist. Either that or the Federation is wasting A LOT of valuable training time and money.
Quote:
Story driven it may be but the computer corrected lead for a jinking object in space so that you can walk fire in against a fast object at up to fifty Viper lengths range iis something no Fed shuttlecraft or starship wsa able to do, Borg neither.
Except that they couldn't hit a Ship Of Lights satellite ship. I think your estimation of Federation targetting is a little loose to suit your argument. Federation targeting is based on beam technology. Missed? Shift it while it's still firing to score a hit. Colonial energy weapons fire blobs of something that require them to be more accurate cuz they don't have the "fluff" factor of a beam. And frankly, I'd have to see a tally of hit/miss ratio culled and compared proportionally from both shows to accurately assess the efficiency of either targeting system.

Quote:
Do you mean Fed runabouts and shuttles? Please explain how those vehicles are more agile than Vipers, or more effective? The closest thing the Feds have to a fiughter are those robot drone craft that Borg cube splashed as it rocketed past Mars. Pathetic.
Nope, I dont mean runabouts or shuttles.
See above.


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Oranges=Cylons
Rotten tomatoes=Berman Drek(TM)
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Old December 13th, 2006, 05:05 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by spcglider
Just like I would choose Voltron over Gundam as my personal giant robot any day... because Voltron has magical weapons and can repair itself from scene to scene whilst Gundam is CONSTANTLY in the repair shop getting a new arm bolted on. Colonial technology is MAGICAL. So in that sense, I'm sure the Borg would be curious. But like I said, it would be far more interesting to the Borg to investigate the Ship Of Lights... which can outrun a colonial ship in a hot micron. Or even better... team up with Count Iblis (I mean, wouldn't the Borg just be his PERFECT cup o' tea?... subservient, blindly loyal, ugly as sin...)
I prefer to consider it good damage control, solid applied engineering, and Colonial system redundancy.

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Maguffin. McGuffin. Miguoughffin. That's what it's called.
Writearound. It's too expensive to simulate micro-gravity with SFX.

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Your assesment of speed isn't in question. WHY would the Borg want rockets? Even fast ones? Its not a conveniently contained technology like Warp Drive. In order to adopt it, they'd have to re-write everything they do. They'd have to create a whole new infrastructure to support it. Its the exact same reason why we don't already have hydrogen powered cars. There's no need to as long as we don't have an impetus to change over to a different system. And without an infrastructure to support that system, the Borg would suddenly find themselves competing with the Cylon Empire for tylium... and according to your estimation, the Cylons are superior, so it would be a losing battle to begin with.
Niven's Kzin Lesson

http://www.oinc.net/knownspace/enc/display.php?477

The Kzinti Lesson. It states "a reaction drive's efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive."

That is why we discuss fusion-pumped particle beam cannons as a viable weapon.

Quote:
Once again, magic. We are simply supposed to believe that you can get anywhere in the universe in 5 minutes if you drive there fast enough. We never see evidence of wormholing or even spacewarp for that matter. They just simply arrive at a new destination and proclaim "wow! That was a long trip!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/gr-qc/9211012

Mathematical for now. Not magical.

Quote:
Okay... you win. You are obviously a better B.S.er than I am. To be able to come up with that off the cuff qualifies you as a first rate artist. To compare real-world ship hull damage to special effects fantasy damage to a miniature model and quantify the comparison without batting an eyelash... I bow, most humbly, to the superior teller of tales.
What BS? I use the SFX shown on film and compare that supposed result to real world events, plus to what I know about metals. Too bad Berman and company didn't consult NUCOR or USX when they reviewed the SFX.

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Except that Tylium is refined into Solium... which is the fuel that powers the fleet. Not the other way around. That's canon.
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Solium_(TOS)

There is confusion here. If the Colonials use solonite as an explosive, and then use solium as a liquid fuel, then I will stick to the science and regard tylium as an energizer and crystalline precipitate product-i.e. a salt.

Quote:
Is that a ball of iron (spherical) with a constant external dimension equal to that of the widest point of New Hampshire? Or is that a ball of iron the diameter of the overall compacted surface area 1mm thick of New Hampshire?
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/states/new_hampshire.gif

Visualize it as a three dimensional ice cream cone-shaped object. 100 kilometers across at the base. The mass is about 10^16 tonnes.

Problem Parameters:
Projectile Diameter: 100000.00 m = 328000.00 ft = 62.10 miles
Projectile Density: 8000 kg/m3
Impact Velocity: 295000.00 km/s = 183195.00 miles/s
Impact Angle: 90 degrees
Target Density: 2750 kg/m3
Target Type: Crystalline Rock

Energy:
Energy before atmospheric entry: -1.8 x 10e36 Joules = 4.35 x 10e19 MegaTons TNT

KABOOM.

Quote:
Yet it still runs on refined tylium. At least that's what we are led to believe in the show.
If tylium is an energizer or a component of a ZIPPY lens, then what is the problem?

http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=156 ^1

Quote:
zippy-zero point focal tap-a charge tap that plugs into the vacuum energy of the underverse that forms the true reality that Realspace and Hyperspace geometry overlays. There is a quantum potential energy function that governs how much energy you can pull out of the soup of particles that flicker into and out of our interactive perception that exists in this underverse. The most common particle that we see, that exhibits this "winking" behavior is the electron, and that is the basis for the Human version of the focal tap. It is why you will find Human(and Vorlon) propulsion systems negate the field effects of the second most prevalent technology in Known Space-that based on the graviton and gravitation.
^1 Shameless plug for me, below. I wrote that stuff.

http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=187

http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=227

Quote:
Towards the end of the run of ST TNG we were "treated" to an episode where Wesley Crusher (shudder) is involved in a training exercise and a aerial display flying a one-man fighter-style craft. They discussed maneuvers that would have been impossible even for the Blue Angels. I'm sorry, but there is no way, from existing footage and if you suspend dis-belief to allow a Thunderbird to function in space like a Viper does (wings, jet intakes, braking flaps, etc.), that you'll convince me that Cylon Raiders can outmaneuver a Thunderbird. And Wesley's group was doing just that in their little Federation craft. If the Federation doesn't have highly maneuverable craft for combat (or otherwise), then why are the training vessels so superior to everything else we've seen? The existence of such training vessels would indicate that highly advanced and maneuverable fighter-style craft also exist. Either that or the Federation is wasting A LOT of valuable training time and money.
You just wrote it yourself. None seen, so none used.

Quote:
Except that they couldn't hit a Ship Of Lights satellite ship. I think your estimation of Federation targetting is a little loose to suit your argument. Federation targeting is based on beam technology. Missed? Shift it while it's still firing to score a hit. Colonial energy weapons fire blobs of something that require them to be more accurate cuz they don't have the "fluff" factor of a beam. And frankly, I'd have to see a tally of hit/miss ratio culled and compared proportionally from both shows to accurately assess the efficiency of either targeting system.
http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=144

Synopsis; you slash with beams and you should be able to slice with them at ranges up to your optical tracking limit. That is the way phasers actually[should] behave. Unfortunately;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRm0R...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAF3H...elated&search=

That is sufficient unto the purpose.

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Nope, I dont mean runabouts or shuttles.
See above.
I do. See below;





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On that, we are Agreed.


-G
Agreed.

Here ia a neutral source I use when I have to objectify SW vs. ST biases;

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/index.html

and another one;

http://www.orionsarm.com/

F.

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Old December 14th, 2006, 07:38 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Senmut
The Borg Vs The IRS
...The Borg flee in terror at the inanity.....
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Old December 14th, 2006, 09:04 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by spcglider
Towards the end of the run of ST TNG we were "treated" to an episode where Wesley Crusher (shudder) is involved in a training exercise and a aerial display flying a one-man fighter-style craft. They discussed maneuvers that would have been impossible even for the Blue Angels. I'm sorry, but there is no way, from existing footage and if you suspend dis-belief to allow a Thunderbird to function in space like a Viper does (wings, jet intakes, braking flaps, etc.), that you'll convince me that Cylon Raiders can outmaneuver a Thunderbird. And Wesley's group was doing just that in their little Federation craft. If the Federation doesn't have highly maneuverable craft for combat (or otherwise), then why are the training vessels so superior to everything else we've seen? The existence of such training vessels would indicate that highly advanced and maneuverable fighter-style craft also exist. Either that or the Federation is wasting A LOT of valuable training time and money...
...Except that Wesley and company were pilot-trainees, practicing for an air-show equivalent.

Using a one-person trainer would be a good way of training to fly shuttles and other small craft in isolation - but it doesn't predicate a doctrine of one-person fighters.

In fact, outside of fan-canon, I've never seen any evidence of any Alpha-Quad races/powers of any consequence using fighters. And, because of differing cultural values, I can only conclude that one-person fighters don't exist because they cannot carry weapons that are effective against ST-canon capitol ships...which would seem to be borne out by the ep where the crews' short-term memories were wiped - the E-D was attacked by a swarm of fighters from a minor state and easily destroyed them, suffering no damage.

BSG fighters (Colonial and Cylon), OTOH, have shown that they are fully capable of smashing enemy capships into spare parts, despite evidence of non-physical shields of some sort existing...granted, they take high casualties to do so, but then the USN's carrier strike groups at Midway also had a much-less-than-desirable survival rate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spcglider
...Except that they couldn't hit a Ship Of Lights satellite ship. I think your estimation of Federation targetting is a little loose to suit your argument. Federation targeting is based on beam technology. Missed? Shift it while it's still firing to score a hit. Colonial energy weapons fire blobs of something that require them to be more accurate cuz they don't have the "fluff" factor of a beam. And frankly, I'd have to see a tally of hit/miss ratio culled and compared proportionally from both shows to accurately assess the efficiency of either targeting system.
Well, the mis-rate is pretty high for forward-firing weapons shooting from a fast-maneuvering platform, which is why the Defiant uses a type of 'pulse'-phaser instead of beam technology. Still and all, while the beams do connect most of the time, even after the target's shields have collapsed, I don't see them doing the kind of damage indicated by the visuals of the Gator, Peg and Basestars in BSG.

Significantly, we have repeated visual evidence of small craft being completly vaporized in BSG from secondary-battery and fighter-battery hits, while that rarely happens within Trek, specifically after shields are gone. (ST:WoK, among others.)

Since we see fighters ramming ships in both BSG and DS9 (in the Dominion War arc), we can make some comparisons in the armor department, even given ambiguous Dominion fighter mass.

We see a Dominion "fighter" take out a good-sized chunk of the primary hull of a Galaxy-class (the Odyssey?); the subsequent destruction was not due to the direct actions of the fighter, but from the damage to the Fed-ship's warp core. I put quotes around "fighter", because the visual evidence at the point of impact indicates that the Dominion fighter is nearly as large as a Klingon BOP...See Below.

The other problem is that in BSG, when we see Cylon Raiders ramming Battlestars, even though they are packed with explosives and cause major damage, we have not seen large pieces removed off of the ships.

Conclusion: BSG capships are built a LOT sturdier than ST-'verse ships, and their power-on-target figures are far more advanced.

Also, you made mention of lack of transporters being a reason for the Borg to ignore the RTF. My question is: so what? Transporters have been shown repeatedly to be inefficient, easily-interrfered with power-hogs. Could the Colonials build transporters? Probably - their sheer raw-power output indicates that they have the energy, although their computer technology seems to lag significantly behind Trek - or us, for that matter: the only advanced computer equipment I've seen on-screen in BSG in Colonial hands is the Viper's targeting sensors - and that's not even a holographic heads-up display, which we use on attack helo's. From what I've seen, my cellphone has more capabilities than the average Colonial computer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spcglider
Nope, I dont mean runabouts or shuttles.
See above.
Both physically and tactically, runabouts, shuttles, BOPs and Dominion fighters - it's even possible to include the Defiant - fall into the "PT Boat" category of ships, rather than fighters. (Numerous movies, as well as ep's of TNG and DS9.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles
Agreed.

Here ia a neutral source I use when I have to objectify SW vs. ST biases;

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/index.html
Mmmmmm.....Project Rho *drrool*.........


Quote:
Originally Posted by Damocles
and another one;

http://www.orionsarm.com/
You know, I could never get into OA...I don't know why, really, but I just couldn't seem to connect with any storyline. I think it suffers from the Trav-verse Syndrome: It's SO huge, it's hard to get unifying story-arc to function...
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Old December 15th, 2006, 09:05 PM   #24
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Yet it still runs on refined tylium. At least that's what we are led to believe in the show.


The fighters and transport ships use tylium, just as the Vipers do. The exact nature of the BaseShip's propulsion system was never discussed. Given the Cylon propensity for surprises, I suspect they use something else for their BaseShips.
Just my two denarii worth.
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Old December 15th, 2006, 09:27 PM   #25
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As far as fuel goes, I took the view that battlestars didn't necessarily need a "conventional" fuel resource to keep going as far into deep space as they could. Nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers don't need to be refueled, so I always saw the top line warships having a self-generating source with tylium only needed for a kind of auxilary power.
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Old December 16th, 2006, 08:13 AM   #26
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Default About powerplants.................

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Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
As far as fuel goes, I took the view that battlestars didn't necessarily need a "conventional" fuel resource to keep going as far into deep space as they could. Nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers don't need to be refueled, so I always saw the top line warships having a self-generating source with tylium only needed for a kind of auxilary power.
Interesting notion, but the universe doesn't work that way. Even if you could use a zero point energy focal tap, you would need electromagnetism or some kind of [gravitational/dark energy?] influence to form and modulate the virtual spacetime field lens.

That means at the low end of the technology tree a fusion power reactor of 10e-8 solar core density outputting at a minimum 10e6 watts to power a zippy.

That is what we expect out of ITAR[20% efficiency] which will hopefully be our first fusion reactor.

It will use about ten grams of lithium per day as fuel to output, if it works at all.

Nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers use fission reactor heat sourced steam turbine machinery to produce either direct drive or electrical output step indirect drive propulsion. Those engines rely on fission and the isotope decay heat generated from that fission to produce that eneregy. Such powerplants generally are military rated, (which means unsafe) and output anywhere from 13% to 23% final mechanical efficiency. The range of output varies from 10e6 to 10e8 watts per reactor.

A military fission reactor can use up to 100-1000 kilograms of uranium to form its heat core and it will supposedly last from five to twenty-five years depending on the fuel rod or pebble bed half-life decay rate.

That watt output range is enough energy to power a city from the size of Junction City Kansas to maybe Cleveland, Ohio per second. [joule/second=watts.]

Now realistically the Alligator needs a powerplant to output at a minimum 10 e20 watts to do what she does. Try accelerating a 100,000,000 ton mass at 10 mps^2 at a lower output? Not possible. 10e20watts is the lower limit.

http://eed.llnl.gov/flow/images/USEnFlow02-exaj.gif

Now if you know what an exajoule is [10e18 joules], the US uses on an average 100 exajoules per year. The Galactica powerplant should output that amount at a minimum each second.

That is the minimum output.

So tylium to be functional has to be an energizer. The influence it must use because of the energy densities[watts/centimeter^2] and the smallness of the Alligator, plus the presence of rockets as the motive means, must be inflationary force exerted as a virtual particle lens to form that zippy.

I don't know why, if the Colonials have that kind of powerplant, why they need rockets, since the very ability to generate dark energy, and use the inflationary influence that goes with it, results in a reactionless thruster; but since they do use rockets, the reaction mass energized to do work, which is cheap, plentiful, and dense enough to be compact and storable at the sizes seen, is iron.

That is why I write that Vipers and the Alligator are tylium [virtual matter] energized stick iron rocket-propelled spacecraft.

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Old December 16th, 2006, 08:29 AM   #27
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Could the Galactica have some Bussard's like on the Enterprise in Trek .. or limited refinery in the main engine area .. to convert materials in to fuel .. say in an asteroid field
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Old December 16th, 2006, 08:47 AM   #28
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Could the Galactica have some Bussard's like on the Enterprise in Trek .. or limited refinery in the main engine area .. to convert materials in to fuel .. say in an asteroid field
Funny you should say that.

That is exactly what it would have to do.

http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=227

The Raymond Spruance and the Nathan Hale operate exactly that way.

Pay particular attention to the way the Von Neuman machine munches on an asteroid when the lasers are changed out in the HERO class destroyer.

The polarizer on the Nathan Hale is an ingestor as well as a spinal weapon.

http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=187

and the technology itself described?

http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=156

You will notice how the Alligator features?

[Shameless plug. ]

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Old December 16th, 2006, 08:50 AM   #29
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I have a read of that thanks
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Old December 19th, 2006, 08:40 AM   #30
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Gordon quietly backs out of the room and goes back to making high-quality replica props from his favorite TV show...
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