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Old October 4th, 2005, 02:42 PM   #1
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Default Colonial Fleet Strength And Composition, Pre-cimtar

COLONIAL FLEET STRENGTH AND COMPOSITION, PRE-CIMTAR

Why did the Colonial Fleet's defenses fail so badly? Why were they so unprepared for the Cylon attack?

The sabotage by Baltar's agents cannot explain the destruction of a fleet that has been in more or less continuous action for at least 100 yahren.

In 'Saga', we only see five battlestars at Cimtar; the implication is that this was either the entire Colonial Fleet or at least the bulk of it.

I find this inadequate and unlikely, along with the 'fanon'("fan-canon") belief that there were only a total of twelve battlestars.

A battlestar is just a ship...albeit a very large one. Because we have to use Earth-analogues, a battlestar is a combined aircraft carrier-heavy cruiser; this has been pointed out frequently. One of the arguments against CBSG is the lack of auxiliary main-force combatants.

The typical assumption is that battlestars must have 'outrider' combat vessels to support them. This is not necessarily the case. A perfectly valid argument would be that the battlestars are the only vessels capable of standing in the "line of battle"(hence the old nautical term "ship of the Line").

The problem with this is that a ship smaller than a battlestar might not be able to survive long enough against a Cylon main-force unit(like a basestar) to make the expenditure of materials and manpower worthwhile.

So, what was the Colonial fleets' status at the time of the ambush?

Here, I am going to speculate...Feel free to disregard this if you like.

A battlestar is roughly 4 times the size of an early-21st century USNavy 'Nimitz'-class carrier. Given that we can safely assume a Colonial population in the range of 12-24 billion(at least 1-2 billion per Colony), and that if they maintained only 1-2 percent of their population under arms for extended periods(the rate for the USA in the 1980s was about 2-3%, counting active duty, reserves and National Guard), the Colonies would have had roughly 40 million people under arms.

The vast majority of those troops would have been infantry and support sevices for the Fleet. There would have been a dedicated ship design to transport large numbers of troops, a minimum of 2-3000 troops per ship, with some type of assault shuttle craft to ferry them into battle; any smaller numbers would be of little use.

Given a fairly constant "optempo"(operations tempo), there would need to be between 50 and 100 battlestar-sized ships "in ordinary"(meaning, 'in service'); this would include a roughly even, one-to-one basis of battlestar-to-assault ship.

However.

We know that Cain was defeated - and the bulk of the 5th Fleet was lost - at the Battle of Molokay; there are apochryphal indications of a spate of heavy fighting around that time period.

As a result, there is likely to have been a receptive undercurrent in Colonial society when Baltar steps up with his peace proposal. For the Colonial Fleet, it would have been one of their low periods: with Fleet strength low, they would likely have had most of their surviving Fleet units in spacedock for repairs, or would have had new keels building.

Given the apparent mood at the time of Cimtar(based on Serina's interrupted newscast), it's likely that the Council of the Twelve may have slowed funding for replacemments as a "sign of good faith" to the Cylons.....Politicians are not noticably sharp in the best of times.

This means that the vast majority of Colonial military forces would have been planetside during the main Cylon attack, and the vast majority of the Fleet would have been in spacedocks or in parking orbits with little more than caretaker crews.

Given the rather lackadaisical response times of the other battlestars at Cimtar(drugged Ambrosia notwithstanding), it's likely that the battlestars in the Colonial Home System would have been equally slow in reacting to a sudden attack.

Additionally, considering the importance of the meeting at Cimtar(where the President and the full Council were present), the five battlestars that we see there are likely a good chunk of Colonial Fleet strength -- say, 30%+/-3%...That would leave only ten battlestars to directly defend the Colonies, and, returning to the slow reaction times at Cimtar, it's probable that very few of them survived; those that did would have only survived by escaping the main Colonial system as quickly as possible, and playing a running game of cat and mouse with the Cylons.

.....

Comments are invited.....
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Old October 4th, 2005, 03:00 PM   #2
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Considering that we see the loss of the Atlantia at Cimtar, and the Galactica withdrawing, that left 3 Battlestars caught unprepared facing a substantial cylon force. I do not believe that at any time did we see non-battlestars there.

That none of the other 3 survived isn't confirmed AFAIK, only asumed. One or more of them may have been able to also retreat, return home find the colonies destroyed, load up what they could and head off for parts unknown.

Looking at the damage at Pearl Harbor may give some ideas as well to the situation I think.
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Old October 4th, 2005, 03:28 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaith Rustaz
Considering that we see the loss of the Atlantia at Cimtar, and the Galactica withdrawing, that left 3 Battlestars caught unprepared facing a substantial cylon force. I do not believe that at any time did we see non-battlestars there.

That none of the other 3 survived isn't confirmed AFAIK, only asumed. One or more of them may have been able to also retreat, return home find the colonies destroyed, load up what they could and head off for parts unknown.

Looking at the damage at Pearl Harbor may give some ideas as well to the situation I think.
Hmmmm.....Remember that the Gal recovers "...67 fighers -- 25 of our own" given the circumstances, I think it's likely that none of the other three survived.

Note that this does not include any task forces (battlestars and troopships) that were outside the Colonies at the time of the attack; their dispositions are completely up in the air.

As a result, I don't think you would see very many surviving Colonial troopships; I know from personal experience how long it takes to load up a Tarawa-class, and even doing a fast load-out there is no way that they'd be ready-to-go in a couple of hours...

...That, and those ships would have been super-high-priority targets for the first waves, so their wreckage would likely have been streaking the skies of the Colonies for hours and days after the battle....
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Old October 4th, 2005, 03:35 PM   #4
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Why assume they ran? They may have had other fleets off doing DMZ patrols. Just because your at peace talks does not mean you just welcome the old enemies in. Remember Ronald Regan "Trust, but verify" and that wouls explain the lack of ships in the series attack. Naturally they would not necessarily NEED Corvettes, Cruisers, Destroyers, and the tending ships, repair ships, Light Assault Carriers, Landing ships ect ect ect... for a presidential function. Most likely the ships we saw in the series attack was what could be spared from their duties. When Adama says the fleet is gone, he may honestly believe it, after all if the Cylons were jamming the other fleets reports, or keeping them from hearing about the colony attacks, then Adama might very well believe it. And they would probably want to keep the other fleets ignorant of the attack. They would enrage the other fleets, making their fight harder. So theres a good probability that there are other types and numbers of ships, just not as many Battlestars.
At least thats the concept I use in my stories, the fight for the colonies just begins after the Galactica leaves. If they ever return, in my stories at least, they will find a ragged series of colonies with battered fleets patrolling them, wondering where the Battlestars went.

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Old October 4th, 2005, 03:42 PM   #5
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I really don't know what to say, as far as I know there were only five battlestars. It leads to a lot of speculation about offensive and defensive capability.

The Colonial planetary defence sysytems must have been pretty impenetrable, after all it took sabotage from within to take them down.

I have no doubt that the Colonials were slowly losing the war, that's why they were quick to take the olive branch offered by baltar on behalf of the Cylons.
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Old October 4th, 2005, 03:50 PM   #6
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That is my thoughts too. Cylon plan seemed to be 1-lead main offensive forces away & destroy. 2-destroy defensive forces, 3-destroy civilians. Gonna throw out some random thoughts here...

I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that Cain said something about the whole cylon fleet being between him and the colonies so thats why he headed away into deep space.

Adama believed Cain had died at Molekay (sp). This would indicate some time had passed between the destruction of the 5th Fleet, and Cimtar.


12 BattleStars
Lets assume that the Atlantia was ceremonial only (ala AirForce 1) for a moment, and that the 4 BattleStars accompanying her were the "best" of the fleet. That would leave 8 unaccounted for.
We know Pegasus was leading the 5th fleet.
What if a "fleet" was a pair of battlestars? That would give 6 total fleets, with the Atlantia possibly being the "home fleet" command ship.
Cylon task forces seem to consist of 3 BaseStars, so a 2 ship Colonial task force doesn't seem much of a stretch.
Also, considering the size of a BattleStar, it can safely be assumed that they were designed for long-term independant operations. This belief is reinforced by the fact that the Galactica operated under adverse conditions, participated in heavy combat for prolonged periods of time without benefit of spacedock or fleet-resupply yet continued to be battleworthy throughout the 1st season

The cylons seemed to be losing the war despite destroying Cains fleet. I base that on the lack of desperation on the part of the Quorum in the beginning. The feeling of the humans seemed to be more happy it's about to be over, than war-weary and shellshocked. That became apparent after the holocost.



Sorry if the thoughts ramble a bit.
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Old October 4th, 2005, 04:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabitha
Why assume they ran? They may have had other fleets off doing DMZ patrols. Just because your at peace talks does not mean you just welcome the old enemies in. Remember Ronald Regan "Trust, but verify" and that wouls explain the lack of ships in the series attack. Naturally they would not necessarily NEED Corvettes, Cruisers, Destroyers, and the tending ships, repair ships, Light Assault Carriers, Landing ships ect ect ect... for a presidential function. Most likely the ships we saw in the series attack was what could be spared from their duties. When Adama says the fleet is gone, he may honestly believe it, after all if the Cylons were jamming the other fleets reports, or keeping them from hearing about the colony attacks, then Adama might very well believe it. And they would probably want to keep the other fleets ignorant of the attack. They would enrage the other fleets, making their fight harder. So theres a good probability that there are other types and numbers of ships, just not as many Battlestars.
At least thats the concept I use in my stories, the fight for the colonies just begins after the Galactica leaves. If they ever return, in my stories at least, they will find a ragged series of colonies with battered fleets patrolling them, wondering where the Battlestars went.

tabbi
Here's where we get into the psychology of the Colonial military, and the difference between "Warriors" and "Soldiers"...and yes, it's one of the differences between TOS and GINO 2.0.

In GINO, the Colonial military is a "through a glass...darkly" version of the US military machine; where Warriors are very pragmatic about "living to fight another day"(meaning, break and run, and harry the enemy when you have the advantage), Soldiers (like Adama2.0) will dig in their heels and hold until they are overrun and annihilated, or get rescued.

Adama1.0 is saavy enough to know that even if one or two other battlestars survived, and even if they can link up, they are no threat to the Cylons, and they won't be able to retake the Colonies; the Cylons are pursuing the RTF out of spite.(Ref "LL"1.0)

Humanity's onnly chance is to find allies, and no one in their region of space is going to help them.....Hence, the search for Earth...

...Poor bastards.....
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Old October 4th, 2005, 04:17 PM   #8
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Well my stories are open format stories, of course stuff that is posted to be stupid is ignored. If you want, Id love to have you maybe help out a bit with ideas and stuff to help me write something worth reading...

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Old October 4th, 2005, 05:07 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabitha
Well my stories are open format stories, of course stuff that is posted to be stupid is ignored. If you want, Id love to have you maybe help out a bit with ideas and stuff to help me write something worth reading...

tabbi
By all means! Email me offlist at cessnamichael@yahoo.com
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Old October 4th, 2005, 05:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaith Rustaz
That is my thoughts too. Cylon plan seemed to be 1-lead main offensive forces away & destroy. 2-destroy defensive forces, 3-destroy civilians. Gonna throw out some random thoughts here...

<snip>

12 BattleStars
Lets assume that the Atlantia was ceremonial only (ala AirForce 1) for a moment, and that the 4 BattleStars accompanying her were the "best" of the fleet. That would leave 8 unaccounted for.
We know Pegasus was leading the 5th fleet.
<snip>

The cylons seemed to be losing the war despite destroying Cains fleet. I base that on the lack of desperation on the part of the Quorum in the beginning. The feeling of the humans seemed to be more happy it's about to be over, than war-weary and shellshocked. That became apparent after the holocost.

Sorry if the thoughts ramble a bit.

No prob! Outside of Cain's hyperbole and the Atlantia being a strictly ceremonial ship, I can see the logic in your thoughts.

Problem is, a battlestar only carries maybe 72 Vipers, plus a few shuttles; I base this on the launch bays only having 16 launch tubes: 16x2=32, plus probably double that to launch in a second wave(32 Vipers to a Squadron, 16 to a Wing). It could probably carry more in a pinch, but only by sacrificing shuttles.

I agree that the battlestars were designed for long-duration missions, but remember that the Gal(and likely the Peg, previously) only went head-to-head with Cylon basestars once each in the first season, and the Gal didn't take too many hits from what we see.

The Cylon Raiders cause periodic damage, but the only time it is truly serious for the Gal is during FiS. I think that by mid-Season Two, the Gal would be needing a real yard pretty badly.

The point, though, is that there's no reason to assume a boiler-plate organizational structure based on what's on-screen. Also note that the Gal carries very little in the way of combat troops; they have armed landrams (eqv to Earth APCs), and there seem to be SWAT-capable security troops(based on 'Baltar's Escape'), but I think that Galactica was bursting at the seams by that time.

Finally, I have doubts that the Cylons were "losing"; I think it far more likely that it was the Colonials who were losing slowly, but simply hadn't admitted it to themselves.

Remember, the Cylons were running a wonking HUGE empire, and the Humans were getting in the way; that's more of a nuisance than a threat. I think that the Cylons threw the dice at Cimtar, and banked a large chunk of their Fleet on knocking the Colonies out at one stroke...Even if Cimtar turned out to be a disaster for the Cylons, they would have inflicted massive damage and casualties on the Colonies, and likely wouldn't have lost too many assets.
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Old October 4th, 2005, 07:37 PM   #11
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There is, and will always be, a fair amount of speculation on the nature of the war, and the Colonial military at the time of the fall of the 12 Colonies. I don't believe that this aspect of BSG was ever considered by the original series writers in anything but the most cursory terms. The destruction of the Colonial Fleet at Cimtar is little more than a macguffin to get the story going.

That having been said, there is a great deal of room for speculation left for fans who want a deeper explanation. But a lot of it rests on assumptions.

The biggest assumption is that Saga of a Star World does, in fact, show the entire fleet at Cimtar. We see five Battlestars in the show--does this mean that only five were there, or that there were no smaller picket ships preceding the fleet? Canon is canon, but remember that the source of the canonical material was likely driven by financial or artistic, rather than teleological, motives.

Why show five battlestars? Because that way, you only have to do five travelling matte passes on the Dykstraflex rather than six, which means you come in on budget for the shot.

The next biggest assumption is that warfighting in the BSG universe in any way resembles that on Earth. In BSG, we have energy weapons systems, complex starships which tend to ignore our laws of physics, emotional AIs, and a genocidal interstellar war that has raged for a millennia. None of these have any parallel on our world.

WM, you touched on this point in your comment on the difference between Warriors and Soldiers. Warriors are shown in some episodes as being a special class. They are quite different and apart from the Galactica crew and certainly higher in status than the "blackshirt" Council Security troops. Warriors are almost a separate caste from the rest of the Fleet personnel. One imperfect anaology is that the Warriors were like the Samurai class of Tokugawa Japan.

If you have a military predicated upon a special class, that class has to more than carry its weight in combat, or you have to have a lot of cheap cannon fodder to feed the war machine without using up the special class. If the Warriors are just that good, then the rest of the military structure will orient itself towards the support of the Warriors. This means that the fleet's purpose is not to fight, but to deliver Warriors to the battle area and provide support for them while they do the fighting. So, why have ships other than battlestars, Vipers, and the odd replenishment vessel?

The third biggest assumption is that the Colonies were at the pinnacle of their technology at the time of the battle of Cimtar. If we accept the notion that the Galactica is 500 yahrens old--and even with life extension upgrades, that still makes her a very old starship--how long does it take to build a new battlestar given that it is apparently cost-effective to try to keep a half-millennia-old starship as part of the core fleet? Could the Colonies have lost the capacity to build new Battlestars as a result of the pressures of fighting a war for Millennia? Could it take so long and so many resources to build a battlestar that building new ones would starve a Colonial world?

Just how nasty was that 1000 yahren war anyhow?
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Old October 4th, 2005, 08:50 PM   #12
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Excellent points there, and the comparison of Warriors to Samurai may be a good one.
- They seem to be a special class.
- There seems to be some code of honor in effect. (Apollo giving his "word as a Warrior")
- They are separate from the rest of the military. (Crew wears blue or black, brown is reserved for CW)
- The "nobility" shown by Adama and in his Pattonesque way, Cain seem similar to romantasized views of Samurai lords (Think Last Samurai)

It's not Lucas's pseudo-samurai vision, but I can see some good resemblances.
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Old October 4th, 2005, 11:26 PM   #13
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rjandron -

You bring up several excellent points here; my comparison of Warriors to Soldiers was a bit rushed, as I was at work, and trying to go home.

While it's an interesting take, I think that the Samurai analogy goes a bit too far; maybe more like European knights, who are an elevated group, but have well-known flaws.

I think that the Council Guards are wannabe's, people who couldn't cut it as Warriors(they either washed out, or never had the guts to try); they know it, and so do the Warriors -- who never let them forget it.

The differences within the Gal's crew are more superficial, I think. Most of the "blue-suits" - the 'Command Officers' - seem to be at least Viper or Shuttle rated, and most seem to have been in-service for a long time(specifically, Tigh, Omega and Tolen; Athena was a Command Officer and was already Shuttle-rated in 'Saga').

The Warriors flying Vipers I see as more akin to helicopter pilots - they fly very demanding aircraft that can land almost anywhere, and tend to be right up on the action; they are a cut above the rest.

In their own way, though, I think you would have seen that Colonial Infantry had the same attitude as the Viper pilots; veteran infantry, no matter the culture, all share certain characteristics - and a certain elitism or 'standoffishness' - that "outsiders" usually find offensive.

In re Colonial culture, it's obvious that they have a rather feudal/theocratic structure to them; Baltar is a 'Count', and Adama - even though he is a serving military officer - is both a political and a religious leader, at least among Capricans.

At the same time, I don't think that the Colonies had lost the ability to construct battlestars; at Cimtar, four battlestars were destroyed by fightercraft alone(granted, a LOT of fighters). So their loss rate would dictate that the Colonies had to be able to construct replacements.

Battlestars are huge, though; construction times could run well into multiple yahren, even if they are stripped-down designs.....Which is yet another argument in favor of fewer ship types -- find a design that works, and stick to it:

*Battlestars are general-duty combat vessels, and form the bulk of the Fleet

*There would be a specialized troop-carrier that would 'triple'-up as a fast "armoured supply vessel" and a 'shake-n-bake' Viper carrier to esort convoys

*There might be 3 or 4 other highly specialized designs like fuel(Tylium) transporters, mobile spacedocks(for battlefield repair), courier/scout vessels, etc but no more than that...This allows rapid planning and execution of build schedules, large-scale interchangability of parts, and the ability to store major components in advance.

As far as reaching the upper limti of their tech, I don't think so. My personal belief is that the Colonials' ancestors terra-formed multiple planets in their home system to make the colonies viable for the Twelve Tribes.

Finally, while technology may be very different, war doesn't change that much; you simple face different challenges caused by the environment......
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Old October 5th, 2005, 03:54 PM   #14
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Did some digging, don't have time to 'pretty' it up. I went through the books I have, and did some googling. Here's my raw notes.

====
BattleStars:

Galactica
Atlantia - Destroyed at Cimtar
Solaria - Destroyed at Cimtar
??
??
2 fleet battlecruisers destroyed (pg 32) Is this a typo and was meant to say BattleStar not Cruiser?

Pacifica - Detroyed prior to Cimtar
Pegasus - Survived destruction of 5th fleet.

Adama in novelization "thinks" 5 BattleStars in the Colonial Fleet. (pg 13)

2 fleet battlecruisers destroyed (pg 32)
Refueling stations mentioned (pg44)
Defensive system mentioned, Sagitara had most sophisticated. (pg53)


John Larocque maintains an excellent resource at http://www.kobol.com/archives/batlstar.html
It states that the 5 Battlestars at Cimtar were: Galactica, Atlantia, Acropolis, Triton & Pacifica.

Mentioned in other episodes are Columbia, Rycon, Cerberus, Bellerophon, Olympia, Valiant, Promotheus, Argo and Poseidon

Juggling these around we get 17:
Galactica, Atlantia, Acropolis, Triton, Pacifica, Columbia, Rycon, Cerberus, Bellerophon, Olympia, Valiant, Promotheus, Argo, Poseidon, Solaria, Pacifica, Pegasus.

Larson himself states that the 12 Battlestar limit wasn't official.
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Old October 5th, 2005, 05:43 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaith Rustaz
Did some digging, don't have time to 'pretty' it up. I went through the books I have, and did some googling. Here's my raw notes.

<snip>

John Larocque maintains an excellent resource at http://www.kobol.com/archives/batlstar.html
It states that the 5 Battlestars at Cimtar were: Galactica, Atlantia, Acropolis, Triton & Pacifica.

<snip>

Larson himself states that the 12 Battlestar limit wasn't official.
I base most of my own notes around John Larocque's research, specifically the comment from GL that there was never a set limit on the number of battlestars. From that flows all of my speculations on fleet strength and operations.

Given that I have yet to hear anyone trash my thoughts on the Colonies' population and capacity, I think my assumptions are pretty safe.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 07:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarMachine
I base most of my own notes around John Larocque's research, specifically the comment from GL that there was never a set limit on the number of battlestars. From that flows all of my speculations on fleet strength and operations.

Given that I have yet to hear anyone trash my thoughts on the Colonies' population and capacity, I think my assumptions are pretty safe.
On screen CBG evidence amd some real world extrapolation.

Cylons.
1. Those machines were never seen operating in a vacuum; or that matter in an atmosphere so hostile that Colonials couldn't function without the minimum of gear.

2. Based on (1.) Colonials and Cylons compete for the same real estate.

3. Cylon Basestars are radially symmetric and lack any visible reaction engine. Speculation; the Cylons use some sort of gravity keel and inertia sail propulsion system. This makes no sense as reaction engines are more efficient.

3. The Cylons never show a massing of more than three base stars. Ergo they have LIMITS to their resources.

3. The Cylons used freighters as support ships to launch their raiders at Cimtar. If they had the Basestars, why not use those? The common theory was that the Basestars were used to raid the Colonies while the freighters were used to disguise the raiders that destroyed the Colonial fleet at Cimtar. That makes no sense. If you have sufficient Basestars to service both target sets, you would use your optimum platform.

4. Based on one, two, and three; it was the Cylons who mainchanced their strategy, and were looking for a knockout blow to reverse their fortunes in a losing war.

Colonials

1. Usually were outnumbered three to one in smallcraft furballs and proved more than capable of fighting in such situations on even terms.

2. Battlestars('alligators') though designed to fit two dimensional TV conventions would make sense as platforms for manned rocket fighters.(Note that there are a lot of design faults in the "alligator" as opposed to a real execution of a space fighter carrier, but the bilaterally symmetrical rocket with the launch recovery mechanisms for the fighters on either the port or starboard aspects of the Viper Coop is logical.

3. For practical reasons, the Colonials would have built area defense bodyguard ships for their battlestars. These AEGIS ships would have been purpose designed for CM/CCM warfare

4. For practical reasons , the Colonials would have built;
-ore extraction/fuel refinery ships(TYLIUM and raw materials)
-ammunition ships(missiles, bullets, boron)
-transports(Colonials)
-freighters(food, air, water)
-manufactory ships(to not only repair, but BUILD everthing from paperclips to battlestars)

5. The last item(four) has to be extrapolated from the screen evidence because there is no physical way to build something as big as a battlestar planetside and loft it into orbit(even in pieces). You generate too much heat. You would kill your planet as a life bearing world if you tried it.

Based on the above we have some grounds to speculate numbers and means. Again using on screen evidence;

One-the Colonials took decades to build battlestars, but weeks or months to build Vipers.

Two-industry is industry. It may be more cost efficient for robots rather than men to build cars, but the hours involved per unit are approximately the same to fabricate. A Cylon Basestar had to take at least as many resources and as much time to assemble as a battlestar.

Three-the Cylon gear always appeared to be poorly designed and complex copies of human gear. Examples-Raider versus Viper, Cylon "laser carbine" versus Colonial "blaster" pistol.

Four-if the Cylons were the vast empire, as speculated, with the vast access to numbers and resources; then they would have massed their fleets and rolled over the Colonials in one campaign. Three to one size difference in resource and population base I'll accept, but anything beyond that does not support the history or the demonstrated capabilities of the two opponents.

So.

If the Colonials are maxed out at deploying and supporting twelve fleets-each one based around one battlestar(One fleet per Colony I might add; so we can take the gross planetary product of Earth and use that to simulate one Colonial world) and if we use Gerald O'Neill benchmarks;

-You can build one battlestar and keep it in ordinary.
-You can build one to four AEGIS ships, each about a tenth the size of a battlestar) and keep that in ordinary.
-You can build as many as fifty auxillaries of all types including;
--three to five ore extraction ships; each as big as a battlestar.
--three to five tankers/volatiles/liquid bulk carriers; each as big as a battlestar.
--one to six ammunition/expendables supply ships about half the size of a battlestar
--up to five freighters of various sizes, but averaging about half the size of a battlestar.
--up to twenty military transports, of various sizes but generally designed to carry around a thousand Colonials in addition to their equipment-estimated average size about a quarter of that of a battlestar.
--two asteroid harvesters that would dwarf a battlestar in size(This is the Von Neuman manufactory-estimated size at least a cylinder twenty to forty kilometers long and five to ten kilometers in diameter.).

That would be the military component of a space presence that the Colonials of a single colony should be able to maintain.

Their commercial presence should be ten times that.

Multiply that by twelve.

Now triple that for the Cylons.
During the thousand year war the Colonials may have had to replace their fleet once due to battle losses.

Based on Cylon performance seen, they had to replace their fleet one and a half times at the numbers extrapolated.

Cylon technology is clunker technology as it appears that they use at least twice the resources to build a unit equivalent to a Colonial one in performance. And it takes three times as many units to achieve battlefield equivalence.

For a comparable model in human history compare Japanese versus the American performance

Japan in that example were the Cylons.

Did you know that the Japanese throughout the early Pacific war outnumbered the Americans and their allies after Pearl Harbor three or more to one at sea and in the air-except at the point of tactical contact?

Glen Larsen had writers who wrote from memory.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 10:29 AM   #17
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Damocles,

I have no trouble with the vast majority of your points; as far as fleet auxiliaries, I think we're seeing some of them in the Celestra, and in the mining ship[s].

I still am willing to doubt a series of Colonial AEGIS-types hulls; the 'gators don't seem to need them, especially when operating in groups(the Cimtar attack was a special case). The cold, hard facts are that the AEGIS-type hulls are out there to absorb damage as they die, in order to protect the carriers; the USN/RN can dance around the subject all they like, but that's what they're there for.

I don't see a lot of that attitude among the TOS Colonial military, at least as they are portrayed.

That said, the lack of AEGIS-type designs among the Cylons is a head-scratcher...

I have always assumed that the Cylons were overstreched in their war with the Colonials, but I doubt that they were in as bad shape as they Colonials seemed to think; and while you are correct that the Cylons should have been able to outproduce and roll over the Colonials, I think that you're spot-on that the Cylons seem to have an imperative not to waste resources unnecessarily.

As to Cylon naval tactics, I think that they used the fighters in concert with the tankers so that they could deploy the baseships with additional Raider units to the Colonies; again, assuming that the Cylons gambled a large chunk of their fleet reserves on the "Cimtar Gambit", they were likely using the bulk of their fleet elsewhere, to keep an eye on subject populations.

Also, I would characterize the Cylons as more akin to the Soviets than the Japanese...

And TOS had good writers because they had people in TV in those days who could actually write...
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Old October 6th, 2005, 12:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
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I still am willing to doubt a series of Colonial AEGIS-types hulls; the 'gators don't seem to need them, especially when operating in groups(the Cimtar attack was a special case). The cold, hard facts are that the AEGIS-type hulls are out there to absorb damage as they die, in order to protect the carriers; the USN/RN can dance around the subject all they like, but that's what they're there for.

I don't see a lot of that attitude among the TOS Colonial military, at least as they are portrayed.

That said, the lack of AEGIS-type designs among the Cylons is a head-scratcher...

<snip>

Also, I would characterize the Cylons as more akin to the Soviets than the Japanese...

And TOS had good writers because they had people in TV in those days who could actually write...
1. I argue that the Colonials build bodyguard ships for precisely that reason, to divert and act as banzai jammers and missile sponges.

2. The Russians probably were the cultural model for your average Cylon, but militarily they, the Cylons, always struck me as Japanese in behavior-stiicking to a rigid plan; then becoming disrupted if things went wrong. Say what you like about the gross incompetence and inefficiency of the Russian economy in general and their military specifically, but the Russian battlefield leadership has been historically GOOD and imaginative. Its mainly their junior officers and soldiery that skunked on the battlefield.

3. Good writers are hard to find, but they are out in the world. When I think of the talent wasting in the wilderness out there that you can find if you GOOGLE.....

Trust me, you can find people to write new "Tales of the Alligator" that would blow the current competition out of space.

The market would carry it and you could sell it. We see that it is possible with an inferior product. Why not try for the objective with better?
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Old October 6th, 2005, 12:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
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3. Good writers are hard to find, but they are out in the world. When I think of the talent wasting in the wilderness out there that you can find if you GOOGLE.....

Trust me, you can find people to write new "Tales of the Alligator" that would blow the current competition out of space.

The market would carry it and you could sell it. We see that it is possible with an inferior product. Why not try for the objective with better?
Ahhhhh......You're assuming that quality is the goal in network TV, these days.

It isn't.

The goal is marketability at the cheapest price possible; if the story blows goats, that's okay, as long as the actors/actresses are lookers/famous, and your budget stays fairly cheap.

Just from what I've seen on this list in the c.1.5 weeks I've been here, we could do our own TOS-era series on our own -- the only thing in the way is getting us photogenic types into place long enough to shoot scenes.

We have excellent writers here, along with technical specialists and general idea people; we have individuals fully capable of doctoring FX, and a good chunk of the membership already owns uniforms and props.

Of course, anything we do will either need the blessing of GL or whoever holds the TOS IPs inorder to make any money from it, or we'd have to make our won, at our expense, and release it for free on the 'net.

Sigh
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Old October 6th, 2005, 12:35 PM   #20
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Nothing wrong with doing a full length fan-film.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 01:16 PM   #21
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Nothing wrong with doing a full length fan-film.
The big kicker is the CGI and the copyright issues.

As I understand the art now, we are about a decade away from actually morphing totally lifelike actors into a CGI animation.(The algorithmns are ferociously complex and the computer OS to handle the algorithmns is just now being written)

Once those hurdles are cleared we can desktop CGI our fanfilm with original actors (image copyrights?) and supply our own voice talent and script. These CGI actors become puppets that we marionette through our fan film to suit our story. Then you go and publish.

The hang up then is the copyright issue and the SAG(Who will go ballistic once actors' images can be morphed into a film.).

We saw a glimpse of the future when we saw that disgustiong frog JarJar.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 02:08 PM   #22
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I just want to say 'These are very intresting threads, the most intresting I have read in a while on the abilitys of the Colonial fleet..' Don't let me stop you..Go on!!
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Old October 6th, 2005, 02:27 PM   #23
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I do want to make one caveat, here: the whole basis of my thoughts on Colonial fleet strength, strategy and tactics is based on my 'jump-line' drive theory...Sometimes, I forget to mention that.

If the Gal/Colonial Fleet are using some other type of drive, a lot of my ideas go out the window.....My problem is that as hard as I try, I can't think of another FTL system that explains what we see as 'screen canon', at least from the technical side.....
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Old October 6th, 2005, 02:37 PM   #24
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Oh great, you just blew my whole thought, I cant even begin to think now.. thanks a lot Taranis, you just stopped me cold hahahahah

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Old October 6th, 2005, 03:54 PM   #25
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Looking at the various sources, maybe "reality" is in the middle?

Cylon task forces are 3 basestars. Maybe a Colonial "Fleet" is 5 Battlestars? The Pegasus was the flagship and sole survivor of the 5th fleet. Galactica was the sole survivor of the "Home" or 1st fleet?

Looking at the Cylons flying basically Zeros (cheep, high manuver short-range fighters), with the Colonials flying higher quality fighters, the ability of the outnumbered humans to outfly/gun their opponent isn't far fetched.

5 BattleStars at 75 fighters each = 375 fighters. A pretty formidable force even against 1,000 enemy fighters. I recall several references to a Cylon Pinwheel attack, where several cylon ships surround and overwelm a single colonial. This would seem to indicate the Cylons often relied on overwelming numbers and massed group attacks as tactics.

Also of note, is the Cylons often willingness to absorb heavy losses in order to inflict a blow.
- At Cimtar, the fighters attacked unescorted.
- At Gamoray the fighters went back and forth until wiped out.
- On at least 1 other occation (Fire in space I think) they came in enmasse and just took it so that they could shield a kamikaze.

Cylon strength at Cimtar was about 1,000 fighters engaging the fleet, while basestars with full squadrons attacked the homeworlds. At 2-3 basestars per planet, that would give the Cylon strength at about 24-36 basestars, with a fighter compliment of about 90 per, that would give the Cylons a fleet at the destruction of about 4,200 fighters.

As to other ships, I do believe a foundry ship, agro ships, and other specialized types are mentioned throughout the episodes.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 08:02 PM   #26
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Kaith,

I like your figures on the Cylons.....I'll knaw on this for a while, and get back to you.

General question: Has anyone ever written a RPG for BSG?
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Old October 6th, 2005, 08:11 PM   #27
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RPG? Yes I have in both R.Talsorian rules (Mekton, Cyberpunk ect) as well as in the Dream Pod 9 system (Sillouette system, Jovian Chronicals, Heavy Gear)
Theres also stuff for the D20 system if you google it (Star Wars) so yea, there is and no there isnt, but you can put together a game if you try hard enough, depending on the system you like.
Theres a whole lotta gamin going on on road trips...

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Old October 6th, 2005, 08:21 PM   #28
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I kinda fudged the old FASA rules for Trek to do a battle between a battlestar and a V Mothership.
Oh, and have played some SFB with the Galactica add-on (unofficial of course).
While in HS I used to DM alot, wrote a wrestling RPG, and a couple of CRPG's.
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Old October 6th, 2005, 08:30 PM   #29
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Holy crap, Im more of a nerd than I thought... I game, understand some sciency stuff, and post on a BBS.. maybe I am a nerd... wow... this is sureal


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Old October 6th, 2005, 08:42 PM   #30
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I used to be a nerd..then I got LASIK (bad move, long seperate story).

They stripped me of my pocket protector and protractor. It was terrible.
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