Of Women and Warriors

[peter noble]

In LPOTG Part 1, Apollo and Starbuck have to train women to fly Vipers, which seems to be unheard of in the Colonial Fleet at that time, although they can fly shuttles and be bridge officers etc.

Tthe Colonials were losing the war, women weren't allowed to fight purely because they can at some point in their lives produce warriors for the fleet. At the time we see the story start, the fleet is short of male warriors and so a law was passed earlier, enabling women to serve but only in a limited capacity. All this goes out of the window when the events of the sneak attack and the contagion threatens the RTF.

Sheba, I surmise, became a Viper pilot not long after the loss of the Fifth Fleet two yahren before LL.

I also think that male children orphaned by the war and with no relatives were sent to military academies. There they get called by nicknames which become used so often they superceed their original names and so become known as Starbuck, Boomer, Jolly or Greenbean etc.

[Tabitha]

Sometimes you ever wish it would happen for real? Just so we could go away. Just to make the whole world go away?

tabbi

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by Tabitha

Sometimes you ever wish it would happen for real? Just so we could go away. Just to make the whole world go away?

tabbi

Uh-oh That doesn't sound good....You okay?

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by peter noble

In LPOTG Part 1, Apollo and Starbuck have to train women to fly Vipers, which seems to be unheard of in the Colonial Fleet at that time, although they can fly shuttles and be bridge officers etc.

Tthe Colonials were losing the war, women weren't allowed to fight purely because they can at some point in their lives produce warriors for the fleet. At the time we see the story start, the fleet is short of male warriors and so a law was passed earlier, enabling women to serve but only in a limited capacity. All this goes out of the window when the events of the sneak attack and the contagion threatens the RTF.

Sheba, I surmise, became a Viper pilot not long after the loss of the Fifth Fleet two yahren before LL.

I also think that male children orphaned by the war and with no relatives were sent to military academies. There they get called by nicknames which become used so often they superceed their original names and so become known as Starbuck, Boomer, Jolly or Greenbean etc.

Well, Athena was already a qualified shuttle pilot in 'Saga'; she was Adama's pilot while he was returning to the Gal at Cimtar.

I doubt that Sheba was such a natural that she took to the cockpit in the field; Cain doesn't strike me as the type to put "Daddy's Little Girl" in command of a deployed Strike Wing unless she really knows her stuff.

I'll have to rewatch LPotG, but I think that was the Council trying to overcome what was likely a rigid safety code to get more pilots trained as quickly as possible.....

[Eric Paddon]

I have to agree that Sheba was already an established viper pilot at the time she first joined the Pegasus, which would be before Molocay, not after it. Female viper pilots might have been a rarity in the pre-Destruction days, but not unheard of altogether or prohibited.

[peter noble]

There are no female Viper pilots on the Galactica up till that point. When Starbuck hacks the computer in GOIPZ Part 1 he makes a specific point of luring Cpl. Komma away from his station with talk of the female Viper pilots. If there were female Viper pilots before the sneak attack then it would be just an everyday thing and not something special.

Sheba appears to be the only female in the Silver Spar Squadron and is a lieutenant she must have been flying a Viper before the women of the Galactica. I'm sure being daddy's girl Cain gave her flying lessons or had someone give her flying lessons, never believing that one day she'd be fighting alongside him.

It's all just a theory.

[mikedx]

Peter,

This is slightly off topic, but I think it's still germane.

Anne said that she thought that she was one of the first female fighter pilots on television, and that she was very proud of that. I'm sure you guys will be able to come up with some prior, but still, she was one of the first. And yes, there were female trainees in LPOTG, but she was the first established female officer fighter pilot in the series. She said that a woman came up to her one time and said that because Anne set the example, she ended up going into the Navy. I wonder how many others there were?

Thanks,
Mike

[peter noble]

The only ones I can think of before Anne (Erin Grey was second) are the Angels from Captain Scarlet (1967) and they were puppets!

I've heard that story before about Anne, it's a nice story.

[Centurion Draco]

I think with Sheba you have to take into account that she was quite the 'tom boy'. You get the impression that she's pretty exceptional in every way. Not only is she an ace pilot, she also comes across as 'one of the guys', she's not only a match for Starbuck in the cockpit, she 'slaps' him down verbally as well.
The other strong female leads are more 'girly' than Sheba (notice I don't say more feminine, as I think shes still VERY feminine!).
Athena's an officer, and a pilot, but you can't see her sinking pints of grog with the boys!
Sheba would
I agree that until the virus, Sheba was the exception to the rule.
The sad thing is we saw so little of Bree after she got her wings

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by peter noble

I also think that male children orphaned by the war and with no relatives were sent to military academies. There they get called by nicknames which become used so often they superceed their original names and so become known as Starbuck, Boomer, Jolly or Greenbean etc.

No, Starbuck, Boomer, Jolly and Greenbean would be their ACTUAL names.

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

No, Starbuck, Boomer, Jolly and Greenbean would be their ACTUAL names.

Gotta disagree with you on this one....The names are significantly etymologically different from all the others in the series. Given that all of those listed are Viper pilots, the anaology to the USNavy is probably a true one....

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by Centurian Draco

I agree that until the virus, Sheba was the exception to the rule.

I don't think that female Warriors in TOS were exactly common at the time of Cimtar, but you have to consider Rigel -- she's in a pretty important position as what amounts to a Launch Control Officer, and IIRC, there are more female bridge crew lurking in the background of Saga.....

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

Gotta disagree with you on this one....The names are significantly etymologically different from all the others in the series. Given that all of those listed are Viper pilots, the anaology to the USNavy is probably a true one....

Except that there is nothing even coming close to suggesting a callsign, or nick names; Apollo is simply called Apollo.

Also Zac is pretty much the same etymological diference from Adama, Athena, Serina, and Apollo as Boomer, Jolly, Starbuck etc. It simply means that there are different etymologicaly naming systems. Them being colonial warriors coming from 12 different planets, and relatively only recently refound each other as they went back into space, I find that that would be an obvious event, and with Zac Adama and his wife for some reason chose a different naming scheme. What's Adama's wife's name? Did we ever see that; possibly she isn't originally from caprica and so children were named with both colony schemes to reflect where both came from?

[Tabitha]

Draco that was a nice pick up. Im glad some guys see that difference. I consider myself a girly girl, as in I like stuff that most people associate with the steriotypical girl next door, while others I know like leather and stuff, its just a different way of thinking. I doubt I would make a good Colonial Warrior, Im too little and I dont like to fight, but I know girls that are tough, and could kick some serious butt. Its a nice thing that you can see that difference. Bravo...

tabbi

[zankoku]

When I was younger, I felt that women did not belong in combat. I was afterall in a combat zone. Over the years and after the 6 day war my ideas changed and I see no reason that awoman cannot be in combat. Today they laid to rest one of our finest, a female airman who was killed in Iraq. Tabbi and I are from the state that laid to rest the first Native American Woman killed in combat.

The women should be held to the same standards as the men but should not be held back because they are women. We have women doctors and at one time that was frowned on. Of course, I am a little prejudiced as my Niece is a Dentist and my Daughteris a Doctor.

Jim

[WarMachine]

Originally Posted by 3DMaster

Except that there is nothing even coming close to suggesting a callsign, or nick names; Apollo is simply called Apollo.

Also Zac is pretty much the same etymological diference from Adama, Athena, Serina, and Apollo as Boomer, Jolly, Starbuck etc. It simply means that there are different etymologicaly naming systems. Them being colonial warriors coming from 12 different planets, and relatively only recently refound each other as they went back into space, I find that that would be an obvious event, and with Zac Adama and his wife for some reason chose a different naming scheme. What's Adama's wife's name? Did we ever see that; possibly she isn't originally from caprica and so children were named with both colony schemes to reflect where both came from?

"Zac" derives from "Zachary" or "Zecharia"; it's a pretty easy jump. I know that
Adama mentioned his wife's name in Saga, but for the life of me, I can't remember it, but IIRC it is at least Greaco-Roman..."Ilyea", maybe?

But "Boomer", "Jolly", "Greenbean" & "Starbuck"? Sorry, I just can't see it, unless they're corruptions of different names.

[3DMaster]

Originally Posted by WarMachine

"Zac" derives from "Zachary" or "Zecharia"; it's a pretty easy jump. I know that
Adama mentioned his wife's name in Saga, but for the life of me, I can't remember it, but IIRC it is at least Greaco-Roman..."Ilyea", maybe?

But "Boomer", "Jolly", "Greenbean" & "Starbuck"? Sorry, I just can't see it, unless they're corruptions of different names.

Not Greaco-Roman, no, obviously not. But that's Caprica. There are 11 other planets who developed independantly for quite a long time that can produce many different naming schemes. Starbuck didn't come from Caprica IIRC.

[Charybdis]

I believe that Adama's wife's name was Ila...

funny thing about all of this is that in the very early PR for the show, wasn't Athena called a fighter pilot as if she was going to be basically the Sheba of the show? Then they got down on her acting and relegated her to glorified school teacher...

[mocha2112]

Originally Posted by peter noble

In LPOTG Part 1, Apollo and Starbuck have to train women to fly Vipers, which seems to be unheard of in the Colonial Fleet at that time, although they can fly shuttles and be bridge officers etc.

The Colonials were losing the war, women weren't allowed to fight purely because they can at some point in their lives produce warriors for the fleet. At the time we see the story start, the fleet is short of male warriors and so a law was passed earlier, enabling women to serve but only in a limited capacity. All this goes out of the window when the events of the sneak attack and the contagion threatens the RTF.

Sheba, I surmise, became a Viper pilot not long after the loss of the Fifth Fleet two yahren before LL.

I also think that male children orphaned by the war and with no relatives were sent to military academies. There they get called by nicknames which become used so often they superceed their original names and so become known as Starbuck, Boomer, Jolly or Greenbean etc.

You made some interesting assumptions that I never saw before. Here's what I've seen.

I always thought the Galactica was like an Air Craft Carrier. And correct me if I'm wrong, but carriers are considered "war zones" and until relatively recently women were not allowed to serve in. The number of woman working on the Galactica bridge and throughout the ship implied to me that women of the Colonies did not have this restriction. However, like in many jobs/ occupations, there is a fewer number of women doing certain jobs than men. Firefighters, construction workers and pilots (both military and private) are good examples. I agree with Eric that Sheba was an established pilot just like Starbuck, Boomer and Apollo just there really wasn't very many other women going for that job.

Maybe it was played down for 70's TV, but the fact that the "shuttle pilots" were women was never spoken. PC for the times? Perhaps. But I can use that now to say that the Colonial Forces didn't have an issue with them being girls, the issue was more that these "shuttle pilots", even though in uniform and just took the warrior oath, were really civilians and lacked military experience.

just how I saw it...

[zankoku]

maybe Greenbeam was a tailgunner or boom operator on a refueler and Greenbean was from a farming community. Jolly was teh class clown. Just a thought

[Tabitha]

There is a precidence here. Sheba. Shooting Hazard Everyone Back Away. S H E B A. so yea, they did go by nicknames.

tabbi

[zankoku]

Shooting Hazzard. LOL. i love it. way to go Tabitha

[Centurion Draco]

Originally Posted by Tabitha

Draco that was a nice pick up. Im glad some guys see that difference. I consider myself a girly girl, as in I like stuff that most people associate with the steriotypical girl next door, while others I know like leather and stuff, its just a different way of thinking. I doubt I would make a good Colonial Warrior, Im too little and I dont like to fight, but I know girls that are tough, and could kick some serious butt. Its a nice thing that you can see that difference. Bravo...

tabbi

Thanks Tabbi

I was worried I'd sound like a misogynist for saying it (or at least a bit non-PC). I really do have the utmost respect for women!
I think one of the best things about BSG is that the characters aren't the usual 2D clones that seem to be the norm for TV shows now. They all seem to have a bit more 'depth' and thats especially noticable with the gals!
Sheba was a real favourite of mine. She's brilliantly written and you can easily imagine that she was raised by her father on board the Pegasus. Lol, you sort of get the feeling he would have liked a son (or perhaps she merely thought that was the case) so she made sure she was everything he could have wanted in both a son, and daughter too.
Cassie is a great character too. A woman who's seen the darker side of life in her career as a socialator, but has managed to keep that sort of 'girly girl' lightness, whilst having some real grit and determination as well (as in her dealings with Starbuck, who she's obviously in love with, but refuses to be blinded by, and her bravery in the raid on Gamoray). I just think it's a fantastically written show! Way beyond the surface level of most of GL's shows.


Eugene

[Tabitha]

No problem Draco, your cool with me. Normally Id make some kind of witty comment, so just laugh here like I did, but honestly, Im not feeling terribly witty at the moment.
Im glad you respect women, its importaint that we respect each other. After all, men and women are different and we should be happy we are. I mean if we were the same, then how would you reconsile liking a girl over a guy? Wow, deep thought. Ok, thats all I got, Im tired, its been a lousy weekend and I need a beer. Man I cant wait till I can buy my own!

tabbi

[Pegasus4]

Starbuck was from Caprica, he said he was orphaned on it in TMwNL.

That's right, the female pilots were never referred to as women, they were referred to as shuttle pilots.

My view is that there were female pilots (and officers) the entire war. When we see the pilots in their barracks at the peace conference, it's the men's barracks. They're not co-ed. It's 1978. The total count of surviving vipers was 67, 25 from the Galactica. Maybe a few were female, we weren't shown them (and we should have been). Athena was changing in her barracks later all alone when Starbuck came in. Where were the few female pilots? Probably on duty.

I doubt Starbuck is his birth name as he was found wandering the Umbra Forest on Caprica at a young age. But Starbuck is the name he grew up with.

[bsg1fan1975]

Originally Posted by Charybdis

I believe that Adama's wife's name was Ila...

funny thing about all of this is that in the very early PR for the show, wasn't Athena called a fighter pilot as if she was going to be basically the Sheba of the show? Then they got down on her acting and relegated her to glorified school teacher...

Charybdis, you are correct. Adama's wife is Ila.

[LadyImmortal]

Also, if you read the novelizations for "Saga of a Star World" and "Tombs of Kobol" then you would learn that Athena was actually already a Viper pilot - who helped train the other ladies (the scene where she supposedly shot Starbuck's Viper in the training simulator was Brie in the books). Athena's the one to tell her that she also shot down Starbuck...

[bsg1fan1975]

so that explains why she was wearing a pressure suit in "Saga" when Starbuck interrupted her changing clothes!

[LadyImmortal]

Ayup!

--Rhonda, mind for minutiae...

[Tabitha]

Maybe they found Starbuck drinking coffee at a Starbucks...

tabbi