BSG in nothing but name

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by repcisg

Just my 2 cents;

The New series debases the basic premise of the original, in several ways. One being all the sex, the Cylons are machines, machines don’t need to have sex to reproduce, they need a factory. Sex was introduced simply to add a salacious value to the production, to make it an adult show. This reflects a low opinion of the viewing public by the management, to be an adult you must not only enjoy but crave erotic content.

The original show stood to a higher standard, no overt sex. Yes suggestions of it were there but behind closed doors.

In TOS the Galactica is a competent warship, occupying a slot in the main battle line, in TNS she is an obsolete relic heading for the scrap yard.

At the beginning of the Second World War the British sent their entire fleet after the Bismarck, the most advanced Battleship of its day. Would the British have done this if the Germans had sent a Pre-World War I relic into the North Atlantic?

In TOS the crew stood for a higher code of ethics, with respect for authority and honor. Even Starbuck knew where the line was. In TNS there is no line, authority is acknowledged only when confronted by it, and honor is not spoken of.

I find it ironic that TOS was produced at a time when the military of this country was held in low esteem and now TNS comes out with the military debased and yet the country views the military as filled with heroes.

If I recall correctly, the TOS Galactica was established as being over a century old (can't remember the name of the ep, but I believe it was the one where they picked up the moon-landing broadcast.) . It stands to reason that she would have been scrapped within a few years if the cylons hadn't destroyed the colonies and given her a new purpose. Going on in that vein, it could also be assumed that the competence of the ship could be due in large part to her leadership, Commander Adama and Colonel Tigh.

It's not the machines that are a danger to people (unless they're self aware AI's ), but the people controlling them.

[BST]

Archangel,

If memory serves, the age of the TOS Galactica was more like 500 yahren/years old. The life expectancy of the battlestars, Cylons notwithstanding, was never adequately determined, in the series.


(btw, it didn't appear ready for the scrap heap.)

[Eric Paddon]

Originally Posted by Archangel

If I recall correctly, the TOS Galactica was established as being over a century old (can't remember the name of the ep, but I believe it was the one where they picked up the moon-landing broadcast.) .

Apollo's exact line is, "When the old girl was launched over 500 yahrens ago...."

[Archangel]

Thanks BST and Eric.

LOL! I really have to get the DVD's someday. Just to refresh all of my memories.

How many serviceable warships do Look ready for the scrap heap when they wind up there.

[BST]

No problemo, Archangel.

Go get them, get them now, must have the precioussss!

OOPS, wrong show.

[repcisg]

The Galactiaca was said to be 500 yarhen old, the actual length of a yarhen was never made clear. But the premise was she had been kept up to date and occupied a position in the fleet as a primary element.

As a primary element she represented a singular threat, one the Cylons could not afford to have running lose.

[Archangel]

Yes, but eventually (If this were a real world situation )she would succumb to things like metal fatigue and other problems associated with age in a however advanced machine, especially one that's been in an ongoing war for her entire existence. Eventually the cost for repairs and upgrades would be high. In the long run it would be more cost effective just to replace her with a new ship.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by BST

No problemo, Archangel.

Go get them, get them now, must have the precioussss!

OOPS, wrong show.

[KJ]

It is absolutely wrong to condemn folks for their preference in a particular show. If there is any condemnation, it should be directed toward those who produced it.

Something the majority of TOS Galactica fans remind the producers of more or less every time we can and whenever possible!



Later guys (and gals)

KJ

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by Archangel

Yes, but eventually (If this were a real world situation )she would succumb to things like metal fatigue and other problems associated with age in a however advanced machine, especially one that's been in an ongoing war for her entire existence. Eventually the cost for repairs and upgrades would be high. In the long run it would be more cost effective just to replace her with a new ship.

This goes to another point I've made before, but it’s been awhile:

The Galactica was a powerful weapon, a representative of one of the most powerful weapons ever devised by the colonies. And she was a front-line ship, the flagship of the Commander-in-Chief of the Colonial military forces, and perhaps one of the newest of the battlestars in service (if you give any credence to the novelization). For all of that she was 500 “years” old. And yes, despite upgrades, etc, she was probably showing her age. The novelization tells us that the Galactica was to be retired after the peace conference (and if I remember correctly, was to become a museum!). This suggests that she is at the end of her service life...if she hasn't passed it, which I think is likely. Add to this a number of things about the battle of Caprica, and bits and pieces found in the rest of the series, and you are left with one inescapable conclusion: The Colonials were losing the war. They hadn’t replaced the Galactica, or any other battlestar, because they couldn’t.


JJR

--er..what was the subject of this thread again?...

[KJ]

The Galactica was a powerful weapon, a representative of one of the most powerful weapons ever devised by the colonies. And she was a front-line ship, the flagship of the Commander-in-Chief of the Colonial military forces, and perhaps one of the newest of the battlestars in service (if you give any credence to the novelization). For all of that she was 500 “years” old. And yes, despite upgrades, etc, she was probably showing her age. The novelization tells us that the Galactica was to be retired after the peace conference (and if I remember correctly, was to become a museum!). This suggests that she is at the end of her service life...if she hasn't passed it, which I think is likely. Add to this a number of things about the battle of Caprica, and bits and pieces found in the rest of the series, and you are left with one inescapable conclusion: The Colonials were losing the war. They hadn’t replaced the Galactica, or any other battlestar, because they couldn’t.

If you think the Galactica old, in the Living Legend novels when Starbuck and Apollo are being led back to the Pegasus (in awe and surprise) Starbuck sees the Pegasus is more beat up than the Galactica, so much so he says out loud, if "Spit" is holding her together somehow? Now thats old!

Far as the war goes, yeah i suppose so the Colonials were on the losing end. As they had around 5 Battlestars left at the peace conference. Or 6 if you include the Columbia along side the Acropolis, Pacifica, Galactica, Atlantia and Triton. (Solaria if you take into account the novel version)

As i've said in a recent post, unless you had an Armada; a Fleet of fleets. Even a mere 5 or Battlestars wouldn't ward off the entire Cylon Empire.

Anyway i think Justjackransom point is, while old, the original Galactica wasn't seen as a museum piece heading for the colonial scrap yards. The TNS Galactica already was a museum piece! And the older Pegasus is under command of a Living Legend, who goes head on with Cylons on the frontlines in the same class (model) of warship.

Hell the TNS Galactica still uses "nukes". In Experiment In Terra the TOS Galactica creates a forcefield to destroy said "nukes" launched from Terra. Quite easily only thing Adama worried about was Starbuck safety in a Viper?

Old, but still caperble warship baby!

KJ

[Archangel]

First, as I've never even seen the novels, much less read them, are they considered canon?

And yes, I hate mentioning canon issues in any sci'fi topic!

[nextceo]

Well I guess I'll wade back in the waters here... As a fan of TOS and TNS it is disheartening to get smacked everytime you open your mouth in faint praise of TNS so I really empathize with Martok. Those of us TOS fans who have "gone to the darkside" and truly appreciate TNS kind of feel like the ugly stepchild of the group. I want to say I think this has definitely improved in the past few months, and a lot so because of places like fleets giving TNS fans a place to air their feelings. I think it is important that we continue to share and talk and appreciate our similarities and differences. I certainly bear no ill will to TOS fans as I am a TOS fan myself.

To answer a few questions, would I watch TNS if it was not called BSG? Most definitely. IMHO it is one of the best Sci-fi shows on TV now, if ever. I'm sure a few of you will roll your eyes at that one, but it is my opinion. Some of my favorite shows are in the sci-fi category: BSG TOS, BSG TNS, ST TNG, ST OS, Babylon 5, Space 1999, Stargate SG1, Buck Rogers (first half of season 1 over second half).

The darkness of the show and the lack of hope. I think you are starting to see it appear. I beleive RDM wants you to understand the precarious position the colonials are in, they face extinction. That facet is not always happy go lucky. However as the episodes go along I think you are starting to see the growth of a family feeling and more positives are starting to pick up. I think it was realistic the way it started. I love the Sopranos, and it is a very dark show with its lighthearted moments. I see TNS being brighter than that and will improve.

The Cylons and sex... How do we know the Cylons do not need sex to reproduce, or can reproduce that way. Evidently when looking at Human and Cylon cells under a microscope you can find no difference. How are new cylons created? If they are based on humans maybe they are interested in sex? Maybe Six uses it simply to control and get close to Baltar, so there is a reason for it. I also don't feel it was or is excessively graphic. More so that TOS of course, but ah, most TV is these days. Not to say it should be that way, just that it is. And TOS was full of innuendo, etc.

Comparing TNS to ST TNG... I never meant to imply anything about TNG not being a remake of the original series of Star Trek. Yes of course it was a future continued version. What I was trying to get at was there was still a significant outcry from fandom, and in some circles there still is (see the Trekkies vs. Trekkers fueds). The opinion at the time was if there was no Kirk or Spock it should not carry the Star Trek name. I think most can grudgingly say TNG turned into a good series. I think you have to give TNS some time to grow, geez we've only had one mini and 6 episodes and I think it is a lot farther ahead in the curve than TNG was at the same point in time.

Galactica as a frontline warship. In the original the Battlestars were very old, but yes were frontline. In the new series Galactica is ready for museum status, but that does not mean she is not a more than capable warship. With the colonials wanting to use the sharing of computer systems and networks again on their vessels, Galactica is not designed for such systems and thus does not fit in the colonial force strategy. It does not mean she is not every bit as capable as other ships in the fleet. Look at the Iowa class battleships of the US Navy. Two were returned to mothballs after Gulf War I, but most beleive they could serve admirably in service today (and did so some 40 years after first being commissioned in WWII), they simply do not fit in the current US force structure according to politicians and some high ranking Admirals, even though a number of people still recommend us using these Battleships for certain situations. With a cylon threat having disappeared for years, for all we know, Galactica could still have been one of the most powerful ships in the fleet, but the Colonials may feel she is overkill and not part of a "smaller faster smarter" strategy. We simply do not know enough about the other ships of the fleet in TNS to make an opinion on this yet.

Thoughts?

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by Archangel

First, as I've never even seen the novels, much less read them, are they considered canon?

And yes, I hate mentioning canon issues in any sci'fi topic!

It's a matter of fan opinion on that one, since there was never a production house or official body to bless anything as canon. I personally don’t consider any novel canon, but that’s just me.

JJR

[BST]

Originally Posted by nextceo

Comparing TNS to ST TNG... I never meant to imply anything about TNG not being a remake of the original series of Star Trek. Yes of course it was a future continued version. What I was trying to get at was there was still a significant outcry from fandom, and in some circles there still is (see the Trekkies vs. Trekkers fueds). The opinion at the time was if there was no Kirk or Spock it should not carry the Star Trek name. I think most can grudgingly say TNG turned into a good series. I think you have to give TNS some time to grow, geez we've only had one mini and 6 episodes and I think it is a lot farther ahead in the curve than TNG was at the same point in time.

Sorry to dwell on this point but, again, we are viewing 2 entirely different situations. ST:TNG was, as you mentioned, a "future continued version", i.e., it continued the timeline started by ST:TOS.

OTOH, BSG:TNS is not a "future continued version", it does not continue the timeline started by BSG:TOS, in fact, it replaces that timeline.

THAT is the primary reason why this comparison is invalid - it's of the apples to oranges variety. The outcry from the Trek fanbase was for an entirely different reason than the outcry from the BSG-TOS fanbase.


Whether the new show "grows" will only be determined by the suits at Universal through their affiliate, the Sci-FI network. It's only a numbers game to them as they have no loyalties to you, to me, or to anyone else for that matter, except to their shareholders. If the new show creates enough shareholder value, it stays. If not, it goes. Sorry to be so 'cold-blooded' with that last remark. Oft times, that's just the way it goes.

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by BST

Sorry to dwell on this point but, again, we are viewing 2 entirely different situations. ST:TNG was, as you mentioned, a "future continued version", i.e., it continued the timeline started by ST:TOS.

OTOH, BSG:TNS is not a "future continued version", it does not continue the timeline started by BSG:TOS, in fact, it replaces that timeline.

THAT is the primary reason why this comparison is invalid - it's of the apples to oranges variety. The outcry from the Trek fanbase was for an entirely different reason than the outcry from the BSG-TOS fanbase.


Whether the new show "grows" will only be determined by the suits at Universal through their affiliate, the Sci-FI network. It's only a numbers game to them as they have no loyalties to you, to me, or to anyone else for that matter, except to their shareholders. If the new show creates enough shareholder value, it stays. If not, it goes. Sorry to be so 'cold-blooded' with that last remark. Oft times, that's just the way it goes.

Sad but true. (Alas, I don't think much of suits either )

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[Gunstar Aries]

Add to this a number of things about the battle of Caprica, and bits and pieces found in the rest of the series, and you are left with one inescapable conclusion: The Colonials were losing the war. They hadn’t replaced the Galactica, or any other battlestar, because they couldn’t.

I couldn't disagree more, JJR. The Colonies are loosing the war? I think the opposite conclusion is inescapable.

At very least, the Colonies have been had a thousand yaren stalemate with the Cylons. The Cylons, as machines, are logical and linear thinkers. They've been unable to defeat the humans. They've won battles, hurt them certainly, but not win the war.

And I say at least because the Cylons must have been loosing the war to accept Baltar's proposition. If the Cylons were winning the war, why would they resort to the treachery of the 'Peace Conference'? Logically, if they're winning, they should have simply killed Baltar, an esteemed member of the Colonial Government, and let attrition or inevitibility or whatever take its course.

Cannon is a grey area when it comes to the battlestars themselves. We know there have been 12, some count as many as 15-16. We know the Pacifica has been lost, and she and Atlantia were newer battlestars in the fleet. How do we know they didn't replace the Belleorphon or the Pegasus or the Rycon? We don't.

So with human civilization relatively intact, (relatively because we don't know of past Cylon military action against the 12 planets that make up the Colonies themselves), I would say the humans weren't replacing the battlestars because they didn't have to. Look at the state of Colonial Civilzation. People in Serina's video are going about their business, getting ready to celebrate peace. It's not like they're on a 'Total War' economy, nothing produced that doesn't help the war effort, etc. They look like more like a civilization at peace not one fighting for it's life.

Further, battlestars are so powerful they don't need any escorts. If the Colonies were fighting for their lives, and it takes x amount of time to build a battlestar, wouldn't they have tried to build more in a 1000 yarhen? Or at least come up with a 1/2 battlestar that would take 1/2 * x to build and could take advantage of the economy of scale and be built not only faster but cheaper? And then use these 1/2 battlestars as escorts for the remaining battlestars, or as force multiplier to be able to bring more fighters and firepower into battle? Or a 1/3 battlestar? Or a 1/4?

Archangel, I don't know if I buy the Galactica suffering from metal fatigue. Even in the last century on this planet, warship lives consistently increased. With good maintenance, some lasted over 50 years, in hard service. I'd think a ship in space would much less subject to metal fatigue or any other kind of materail stress beyond combat, as opposed to a ship at sea that is constantly being flexed. That said, many warships are refitted, updated, rebuilt, modified, etc. to keep pace with changing technology. We see Pegasus using missiles, for example, but Galactica doesn't have them when she engages a base ship in Hand of God, relying exclusivly on lasers. She must have been updated at some point and had the missiles replaced.

Similarly, it was not uncommon in the age of sail to replace parts of a vessel as nature wore them away. The USS Constitution in Boston Harbor is 200 years old. Only about 3% of the ship there now was there when she was launched in 1798. Numerous rebuild have replaced parts of the ship as age took their course.

I'm not saying Galactica is as fresh as the day she was launched, but there are reasons she's not a pile of junk and/or hopelessly obsolete. Maintenace of anything is a key to prolonging its life. And we do know Galatica's crew is proud of there ship and thus probably very meticulous in their maintenace of her.

Regards,

Gunstar Aries

[Eric Paddon]

It's hard to get a handle on whether things were going good or bad for the Colonies at the time of the Destruction, but I think one thing has to be certain. Commander Cain's loss two yahrens before certainly must have been a jolt to the overall state of Colonial morale regarding their ability to keep fighting and it could well be that because of that demoralized state within some areas of the Colonial government, a phony peace offering would have been more easily snatched than at any other point in time.

And one has to ask what kind of peace terms were being offered by the Cylons in the deal that wasn't? Were the Cylons ostensibly making concessions they had never done before? Had there ever been any other kind of negotiations in the past?

[BST]

Another item never fully explored was the actual size and scope of the Cylon war machine. Whenever we encountered a Cylon stronghold, it was usually planetary based, Ice Planet Zero, Gamoray, Carillon. So, perhaps the Cylon baseships were relatively few in number and only used for specific campaigns. Then, they would seem to have only been used for troop movement - the Raiders and Cylon footsoldiers did all the work. The base ship would only be needed if a larger vessel, i.e., a battlestar, were encountered. Once the planet / system was secured, the baseship would receive new orders or return to the Cylon homeworld.

To illustrate, go back to the events at the Peace Conference, the Cylons accomplished the destruction of both the Fleet and the Colonies, with just 3 base ships. The overwhelming number of raiders and the element of surprise were the keys to their victory.

Given this scenario, I give credence to the possibility that the Colonies and the Cylons were of similar military strength in terms of Base Ships vs. Battlestars but, the Cylons had the edge in Raiders vs Vipers. Another item in the Cylons' favor was pilot replacability. It was more difficult to replace a human pilot as there were only a finite number of humans that had skills to fly a Viper. On the other hand, with the Cylons, you would seat a Centurion in a Raider, tell him to shoot this thing:

[mover]viper[/mover]

...and he would say, "By your command".


Just some random thoughts from an otherwise cluttered mind.

BST

[martok2112]

Conjecture of the state of the Colonies or the Cylon war machine is a beautiful thing...and that is the nature of space fantasy.

We are simply asked to suspend disbelief about a given situation. The simplicity of the story has been laid before us. The Colonies are prepared to celebrate an armistice with an enemy they have fought for a thousand yahrens. We know generally little about the Cylons until they launch their devious and devastating assault on humanity.

Although we are fed just a tad more info about the TNS Cylons, the state of the Cylon Alliance, and the Colonial Fleet is subject to equivalent conjecture.

In either case, no matter how hard or soft the sci-fi aspect of either show, all they ask is one simple thing: Suspend disbelief.

That is what allows me to enjoy both Galacticas equally. (I am currently enjoying the awesome --if hastilly edited-- Mission Galactica: The Cylon Attack...probably the FINEST that the Classic Galactica had to offer.)

Respectfully,
Martok2112 (buzzed, and not sure if he made much sense)

[Gunstar Aries]

Martok,

I agree, it is a lot of fun. One of the best things about Science Fiction. And I have to say, I like it when an author or creator leaves it to us to fill in some blanks. To swerve off topic for a short rant, this is what the old black-and-white Horror masters knew. Whatever your imagination could come up with was a helluva lot more scare than anything they could show you. What passes for modern horror, Jason, Freddie, Leatherface, and friends, is more gore than horror. OK, rant mode off.

BST,

One of the things left unsaid in the TOS is the extent to which the Colonies had destroyed the Cylon military machine. We know they sent the fighter with the tankers to the 'Peace Conference because they needed their base ships else where. Apollo estimates that they have 'maybe 1000'. A thousand Raiders would be about three base ships. Coincidentally, we see only three baseships attacking the Colonies. We know one battlestar isn't a match for three base ships (LL), and I suspect another reason Galactica didn't try to attack them with all their fighters occupied on the Colonies was Adama already had his survival of the race plan in mind. But lets say we didn't see all the base stars present. Maybe there were another three attacking the 'outer' Colonies. Even at twice the Cylon stregnth, that's still only six to face what were five Colonial battestars before the ambush. I rather like those odds, and I'm sure the Cylons don't. Hence the resorting to trechery instead of military superiority.

You're right about the Cylons frequently constructing bases, then polluting them with Raiders. So while they might have controlled a lot territory, I think it's very possible the Colonial Warriors might have destroyed an unhealthy (for them) portion of their fleet. Why don't the three basestars immediately start after Galactica after the Destruction of the Colonies? Perhaps they were withdrawn to defend the Cylon home world, or were involved in mopping up operations against other human outposts, like Borallis. Could be a result of their linear thinking, the plan is the fighters at Cymtar will destroy the Battlestars, the basestars will destory the Colonies then mop up the rest of humanity. With the Galactica escaping destruction, and getting away before the Cylons could catch her, perhaps their programming had them just following the plan...

Eric,

As I said to BST, we don't know how much the Colonies hurt the Cylons. We know the Fifth Fleet was lost, but we don't know how much of the Cylon 'Fleet' that engaged them was left afterward. Might have been a pyrrhic victory for the Cylons. Certainly no base star was in good enough shape to pursue the Pegasus. It could be they 'held the field' with a few badly damaged basestars, while the somewhat intact Pegasus escaped (my likely scenario, anyway.) If it were only a single damaged basestar, I think Cain would have destroyed it. Or perhaps there was only one but the fighters from several were still around causing Pegasus to withdraw. But the bottom line is no Cylon forces pursued Pegasus or if they did, they were not in sufficient strength to slow/catch/destroy her. Therefore I think the Fifth Fleet must have done quite a number on its Cylon opposition.


Great discussion, gents.

Regards,

G A

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by Gunstar Aries

Martok,

I agree, it is a lot of fun. One of the best things about Science Fiction. And I have to say, I like it when an author or creator leaves it to us to fill in some blanks. To swerve off topic for a short rant, this is what the old black-and-white Horror masters knew. Whatever your imagination could come up with was a helluva lot more scare than anything they could show you. What passes for modern horror, Jason, Freddie, Leatherface, and friends, is more gore than horror. OK, rant mode off.

I entirely agree, Gunstar. And it seems that now, any movie that comes out that genuinely tries to be a horror film falls flat on its astrums because so many people have been desensitized to any sense of fear due to the graphic "chop a head off a minute" nature of Freddie, Jason, et al.

There is a saying among some directors that "Less is more" IIRC. Directors like Ridley Scott, when he made ALIEN in 1979, consciously kept the show's titular star in the dark, or off camera as much as possible. We rarely got to see the creature in its entirety. (The third and fourth movies of that series left little to the imagination about the creature, and became consistently gorrier.)

Originally Posted by Gunstar Aries

BST,

One of the things left unsaid in the TOS is the extent to which the Colonies had destroyed the Cylon military machine. We know they sent the fighter with the tankers to the 'Peace Conference because they needed their base ships else where. Apollo estimates that they have 'maybe 1000'. A thousand Raiders would be about three base ships. Coincidentally, we see only three baseships attacking the Colonies. We know one battlestar isn't a match for three base ships (LL), and I suspect another reason Galactica didn't try to attack them with all their fighters occupied on the Colonies was Adama already had his survival of the race plan in mind. But lets say we didn't see all the base stars present. Maybe there were another three attacking the 'outer' Colonies. Even at twice the Cylon stregnth, that's still only six to face what were five Colonial battestars before the ambush. I rather like those odds, and I'm sure the Cylons don't. Hence the resorting to trechery instead of military superiority.

You're right about the Cylons frequently constructing bases, then polluting them with Raiders. So while they might have controlled a lot territory, I think it's very possible the Colonial Warriors might have destroyed an unhealthy (for them) portion of their fleet. Why don't the three basestars immediately start after Galactica after the Destruction of the Colonies? Perhaps they were withdrawn to defend the Cylon home world, or were involved in mopping up operations against other human outposts, like Borallis. Could be a result of their linear thinking, the plan is the fighters at Cymtar will destroy the Battlestars, the basestars will destory the Colonies then mop up the rest of humanity. With the Galactica escaping destruction, and getting away before the Cylons could catch her, perhaps their programming had them just following the plan...

If three baseships can carry 1000 ships between them, then that is where I would have to force myself to "really" suspend disbelief. I would agree with the assessment that there were more baseships involved in the attack on the Fleets..baseships we did not see.

Assuming that a basestar is at least a mile in diameter, I doubt it could carry 333 fighters. Basestars and Battlestars have massive internal workings which would only allow so much room for launch/recovery/support bays for their carried craft. Personally, I do not believe a battlestar can carry more than 120. So, yes, if we go by this logic, there would have to have been more than just three baseships involved to deploy that many fighters. (And then at that, assuming Apollo's estimate was correct, the baeships only committed a partial number of their forces, because the rest of their fighters were dispatched to ravage the colonies.)

Now, to interject a little something from the new show, when the attack is being launched on the rag-tag fleet as they escape Ragnar Anchorage, Lt. Gaeta reports 72 Cylon raiders inbound. Although there are only two baseships (if I remember correctly) the number 72 would be consistent for a single basestar, assuming that it was a mile in length. (This is kind of in keeping with Star Wars' notion that an Imperial Star Destroyer --class I or II-- carries a wing of fighters...totaling 72 fighters, not counting various support craft like assault shuttles, etc.) Of course, this also assumes that ONLY a single basestar launched its fighters against the Galactica and the fleet.

I would agree that as far as the holocaust launched against the colonies in the new show is a little hard to swallow, simply because we do NOT see the Cylon forces present when they are attacking. All we see are nukes going off. (Did they deploy fighters? Were the baseships cloaked somehow? Did they cruise their nukes in from extreme range to avoid detection --like Boomer did with her Raptor-- and then fire up upon reentry into their intended targets?) The hows and whys of the holocaust in the new Battlestar Galactica are very vague at best...but I am hoping that perhaps we will see more in future episodes...some survivors with flashbacks.

Originally Posted by Gunstar Aries

Eric,

As I said to BST, we don't know how much the Colonies hurt the Cylons. We know the Fifth Fleet was lost, but we don't know how much of the Cylon 'Fleet' that engaged them was left afterward. Might have been a pyrrhic victory for the Cylons. Certainly no base star was in good enough shape to pursue the Pegasus. It could be they 'held the field' with a few badly damaged basestars, while the somewhat intact Pegasus escaped (my likely scenario, anyway.) If it were only a single damaged basestar, I think Cain would have destroyed it. Or perhaps there was only one but the fighters from several were still around causing Pegasus to withdraw. But the bottom line is no Cylon forces pursued Pegasus or if they did, they were not in sufficient strength to slow/catch/destroy her. Therefore I think the Fifth Fleet must have done quite a number on its Cylon opposition.

I would theorize that the Cylons actually assumed (as the ragtag fleet did) that the Pegasus perished along with the Fifth fleet.

However, if we go by the Pegasus crew's recounting of events, the Cylons would have to be scratching their tin domes trying to figure out where these mysterious fighter attacks on their fuel base were coming from. The Cylons had priority orders to focus on a rebel fleet escaping the destruction with a single battlestar shepherding them. This information (although unclear why to Commander Cain) gave him carte blanche to launch his hit and runs on Gammorray.

Now, let's assume (jeez, doing a lot of assuming lately ) that Cain only deploys a small fraction of his Silver Spar squadron, each and every time he launches a harrassing/pirating run against Gammorray or their tankers. This would be a good tactic if he can count on his pilots' high survival probability against greater odds, because that would force the Cylons to wonder how so few ships are able to inflict so much damage against a supposedly well fortified base. Cain, by hiding his numbers, can keep the Cylons guessing, and keep them from figuring out that there IS another battlestar out there. For Cain to deploy his full might would tip them off, and probably cause the Cylons to devote another contingent to hunt them down en masse.

Half-asleep when writing all this...so I am not sure if I made much sense.

Originally Posted by Gunstar Aries

Great discussion, gents.

Regards,

G A

Indeed....and again, welcome to the Fleets, Gunstar Aries.
Respectfully,
Martok2112

[Eric Paddon]

"However, if we go by the Pegasus crew's recounting of events, the Cylons would have to be scratching their tin domes trying to figure out where these mysterious fighter attacks on their fuel base were coming from."

The base commander I think clearly never told any of the higher-ups in the Cylon chain of command, especially the Imperious Leader, that there was any such problem to begin with since he undoubtedly realized it meant he'd be "scavenged for spare parts."

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

"However, if we go by the Pegasus crew's recounting of events, the Cylons would have to be scratching their tin domes trying to figure out where these mysterious fighter attacks on their fuel base were coming from."

The base commander I think clearly never told any of the higher-ups in the Cylon chain of command, especially the Imperious Leader, that there was any such problem to begin with since he undoubtedly realized it meant he'd be "scavenged for spare parts."

True.

[Gunstar Aries]

Martok,

In The Hand of God, Tigh says the basestar carries 300 fighters. (THoG is my favorite episode...)

At Gamoray when Pegasus is 'lost' for the second time, Baltar has three basestars, and Lucifer tells him there is the equivalent strength of another basestar on Gamoray.

I don't have a problem with a basestar carrying 300 fighters. Basestars are practically all landing bays anyway, and it isn't like the Centurions need personal or sleeping quarters or mess halls. Okay, maybe some repair shops, so we'll say maybe there as large as mess halls....


You're right, another gray area (or grey for you B5 fans) is the capacity of a battlestar. IIRC, Galactica gets away from the Destruction of the Colonies with something like 70 fighters (67 sticks in my mind for some reason). Two thirds of her Vipers are gone, but she picks up more from the other battlestars that were lost at the ambush. Galactica's squadrons are organized into Red Squadron and Blue Squadron, though Starbuck is usually seen with a Red Squadron isignia and frequenly flies with Boomer and Starbuck, who wore Blue Squadron. So is one squadron about 35 Vipers?

From Pegasus we hear only of 'Silver Spar Suadron.' Does Pegasus have her Vipers organized into a single sqadron? Has she suffered enough losses that she has only squadron left, so all pilots are now in Silver Spar, like all the surviving Colonial pilots are amalgamated into Red and Blue on Galactica? Or does Pegasus have another squadron, but it's just not 'brought up in conversation' during the Living Legend? We do know Pegasus sends Silver spar to Galactica during the Battle of Gamoray. So where does this put Galactica at capacity-wise? 140 fighters (assuming all Pegasus Vipers are in 1 squadron)? 105 (assuming Pegasus has a second squadron of about 35 Vipers). Does she have a problem carrying so many? Is she over capacity with three (or four) squadrons worth of fighters?

As for Pegasus before encountering the Galactica, you may have something with Cain hiding his strength from the Cylons. Pirates are mentioned in "Saga of a Star World.' It's very likely there are human (or alien, for that matter) outcasts who acted as Pirates. Cain could have been trying to convince the Cylon's that he wasn't a Battlestar, but a Pirate force. I think it's plausible, especially after the Destruction of the Colonies. With the Cylon focus on Galactica, the 'pirates' afflicting Gamoray can be dealt with once the rag tag fleet is dealt with....

Eric has a good point about the Cylons at Molokay. They could have known Pegasus got away, but didn't report it, like Spectre in 'The Young Lords' exaggerated the uh, scope of the Empire's victory. In any case, whether Cylons were holding the field, stomping the humans or getting away with their lives, they didn't pursue the Pegasus.

My additional thoughts,

G A

[repcisg]

Just thought I'd repost this.

Battlestars are BIG, Glen Larson asked John Dykstra to build a ship about a mile long. John Dykstra designed and built the Galactica on a scale of 1/960 (1 foot equals 960 feet) at 6 feet 4 inches, that makes her 6,080 feet long or one nautical mile in length. Books reporting the Galactica as being 2000 feet in length were written without consulting Dykstra or any of the production staff. Some fans have estimated her as being 4000 feet long, but these estimates are based on internal views, which were matt paintings, not done to scale, but rather what looked cool.

Based on the Dykstra’s scale the landing bays are 3,000 feet long, 720 feet wide and 315 feet high.

In total volume the center body contains a volume roughly equal to both landing bays combined, the head contains an equal volume of space.

It is important to remember, in 1978, details like this were not considered important. With the advent of VCR’s fans have been able to replay segments of films, extracting details and background information originally thrown in to add flavor to the over all story. These details were never intended to be a serious part of the story.

So pick your size.

A thought problem or simple exercise. At a scale of 1/960 a Viper (28 feet long by 16 feet wide) would be .35 (28/960*12) inches long by .2 (16/960*12) inches wide. The main landing deck would be 37.5 (3000/960*12) inches long and 9 (720/960*12) inches wide. The central landing strip down the center of the deck would be 4.5 inches wide. A 2.25 inch strip remains on either side, the outer edge will contain the launch tubes and the inner strip shops and storage. Because the landing bay is tapered at both ends, allow a setback from each end of about 4.5 inches.

If you want to play with the scale, you can make the deck bigger or the Viper and shuttle bigger. Just take the dimension and divide by the desired scale then multiply by 12. This will give the scale size in inches. For example a 3,000 foot long landing bay would be 3000/960 x 12 = 37.5 inches.

Make some miniature vipers, shuttles and conduct your own ops. See how many vipers you really could operate from just one deck. Then remember there should be one or two decks below and seven to eleven decks above. Throw in some elevators and things could get interesting.


As I recall a shuttle is 100 ft long, 40 ft wide and 50ft high, or there about.


If you don’t want to cut out tiny little vipers, cutout some paper squares, 1 inch by ¾ inch. This would be the space needed to park seven Vipers, four facing one way and three the other way. Or if you prefer an even simpler approach, a penny is a little larger than the space needed for five Vipers. Fifteen pennies equals 75 Vipers.

Just remember there are two (2) landing bays!

Have fun!

[martok2112]

Gunstar,

Alll very good points. I need to be able to see Hand Of God again. Wow....if a basestar does indeed carry 300 fighters, then, well.....umm...... YIKES!

Since I only sporadically get to view other episodes of Galactica, my memory is often shoddy about specifics of Galactica shows. (Until I get the boxed set, I need to do what I did when I wrote Dark Exodus, and start utilizing online source references to keep my facts straight.)

The number 67 rightly sticks out in your mind because that is what Flight Corporal Rigel reports to Col. Tigh in Saga when the fighters are returning from the Cylon ambush. (IIRC, she says : "67 fighters in all, sir. 25 of our own." )

Since Cain is somewhat of an elitist, I would assume too that he has organized all of his surviving fighters into a single squadron known as Silver Spar. (It is the only one we hear of...but he probably has several flights under that squadron in units we do not hear about: i.e., Silver Spar Alpha Flight, Silver Spar Beta Flight, etc)

I think Eric is correct also. It was probably something mentioned in the actual episode of "The Living Legend" that may have been edited out of the version I have which is "Mission Galactica: The Cylon Attack." (Eric, I realize you don't really like the novelizations of the episodes, but they do go into some considerable detail that I'd forgotten about until this was brought up, that the base commander tried to hide certain facts from the Imperious Leader, for fear of becoming scrap metal.)

Good discussion, everyone,
Respectfully,
Martok2112

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by repcisg

Just thought I'd repost this.

Battlestars are BIG, Glen Larson asked John Dykstra to build a ship about a mile long. John Dykstra designed and built the Galactica on a scale of 1/960 (1 foot equals 960 feet) at 6 feet 4 inches, that makes her 6,080 feet long or one nautical mile in length. Books reporting the Galactica as being 2000 feet in length were written without consulting Dykstra or any of the production staff. Some fans have estimated her as being 4000 feet long, but these estimates are based on internal views, which were matt paintings, not done to scale, but rather what looked cool.

Based on the Dykstra’s scale the landing bays are 3,000 feet long, 720 feet wide and 315 feet high.

In total volume the center body contains a volume roughly equal to both landing bays combined, the head contains an equal volume of space.

It is important to remember, in 1978, details like this were not considered important. With the advent of VCR’s fans have been able to replay segments of films, extracting details and background information originally thrown in to add flavor to the over all story. These details were never intended to be a serious part of the story.

So pick your size.

A thought problem or simple exercise. At a scale of 1/960 a Viper (28 feet long by 16 feet wide) would be .35 (28/960*12) inches long by .2 (16/960*12) inches wide. The main landing deck would be 37.5 (3000/960*12) inches long and 9 (720/960*12) inches wide. The central landing strip down the center of the deck would be 4.5 inches wide. A 2.25 inch strip remains on either side, the outer edge will contain the launch tubes and the inner strip shops and storage. Because the landing bay is tapered at both ends, allow a setback from each end of about 4.5 inches.

If you want to play with the scale, you can make the deck bigger or the Viper and shuttle bigger. Just take the dimension and divide by the desired scale then multiply by 12. This will give the scale size in inches. For example a 3,000 foot long landing bay would be 3000/960 x 12 = 37.5 inches.

Make some miniature vipers, shuttles and conduct your own ops. See how many vipers you really could operate from just one deck. Then remember there should be one or two decks below and seven to eleven decks above. Throw in some elevators and things could get interesting.


As I recall a shuttle is 100 ft long, 40 ft wide and 50ft high, or there about.


If you don’t want to cut out tiny little vipers, cutout some paper squares, 1 inch by ¾ inch. This would be the space needed to park seven Vipers, four facing one way and three the other way. Or if you prefer an even simpler approach, a penny is a little larger than the space needed for five Vipers. Fifteen pennies equals 75 Vipers.

Just remember there are two (2) landing bays!

Have fun!

Wow...Rep, that's some serious figuring there.

Well done

Martok2112

[Eric Paddon]

In "Hand Of God" not only does Tigh say that a baseship has 300 fighters, Adama then says later "You'll be outnumbered two to one" which suggests that the Galactica has in the vicinity of 150 fighters by this point.

The 67 number that Omega (not Rigel) reads off to Tigh in Saga I think should just be interepreted as a starting figure at that point in time. One would assume that more strays from other ships followed, and also vipers from ground based garrisons in the twelve worlds that never got a chance to get into action because of the sudden sneak attack.

[repcisg]

Based on just the basic dimentions of the main deck of the landing bay, Battlestar should be able to handle about 600+ Vipers with little difficulty. Add to that about 500 shuttles and four 2400 man light infantry brigades and a Battlestar is one dangerous oppenent.

And that is a light load.

The Cylons have good reason to want the last Battlestar destroyed.