Rank in BATTLESTAR GALACTICA

[Redeye]

One half-baked aspect of the original series was carried over into Ronald Moore's new remake: convoluted military structure and rank. It never made snese to me in the "classic" show that a "commander" could outrank a "colonel". In just about any terrestrial military, the naval rank of Commander (or equivalent) is one step below Captain. A Naval Captain is equal to an army/airforce colonel.

For years, I've wondered if there was some way that the GALACTICA rank and military structure could somehow be explained/rationalized. Then Ron Moore's remake came along and I expected he would rectify the whole thing. (Wasn't he in the Navy?) No such luck. Still doesn't make sense to me.

Wouldn't it be a good idea if the rank structure for the show reverted to all-naval? Would it be too jarring to refer to Edward James Olomos' character as "Admiral Adama" and maybe bump up Lee's rank from airforce captain to naval lt. cmdr.? Tigh could be a captain or commodore.

Here are a couple of U.S. military web-pages on rank:

U.S.A. - enlisted:
http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/.../enlisted.html

U.S.A. - officers
http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/.../officers.html

[Eric Paddon]

I never found the rank structure that convoluted in TOS. If anything, having a little variation made more sense ultimately. In the case of TOS, I would say it uses the Army structure, but "Ensign" replaces Second Lieutenant, and "Commander" replaces General. We never saw any Majors, but Apollo calling himself a "Strike Captain" could mean a rank higher than captain but lower than colonel in the same vein.

Doing it all the same way as Earth does only takes away further from the mystique ultimately IMO.

[Charybdis]

I think in sci-fi, most space faring fleets go by naval standards. Except in Battlestar, where they still used the Army designations for the most part..

[ernie90125]

I always liked the idea of Adama being a Commander, because that is exactly what he was doing - Commanding !!!!!

I think in the novel(?), the rank Admiral is mentioned. I know it was Galactica, but I suspect it was the novel not elsewhere...

[peter noble]

Originally Posted by Redeye

One half-baked aspect of the original series was carried over into Ronald Moore's new remake: convoluted military structure and rank. It never made snese to me in the "classic" show that a "commander" could outrank a "colonel". In just about any terrestrial military, the naval rank of Commander (or equivalent) is one step below Captain. A Naval Captain is equal to an army/airforce colonel.

Ah, you're making the classic mistake of relating an aspect of Colonial life in Earth terms. Perhaps the most successful thing Glen A. Larson achieved with BSG was the portrayal of a human civilisation that wasn't 100 per cent based on an Earth one, thus the difference in command structure.

Best,

Peter

[bsg1fan1975]

Originally Posted by Warrior

Referring to the title of the thread, yes, the nuBG is pretty rank

That's a good one!!!!!!!!!!!


I salute you my brother!

[BRG]

I also found the odd mixing of Army & Navy ranks in the wrong order confusing when I first watched the show. I kept thinking Adama & Apollo had there ranks the wrong way round!

But you get used to it. And it is unique! Star Trek uses Navy rank structure. Babylon 5 has both Army & Navy divisions in the Earth Force, and uses the proper rank structure for each part of the sevice. And Stargate uses US Air Force ranks, as I believe the characters are US Air Force officers, which is stating the obvious if true! So the Battlestar Galactica rank system for the Colonial Fleet really sets it apart.

One last wee thought on Apollo's rank of Strike Captain. The RAF has a differant rank to the Army or the RN, and one of the ranks is 'Group Captain'. So maybe BSG has a differant rank titles for fighter pilots? Although I think it unlikely as Group Captain is the equivelant rank as Colonel!
BRG

[ernie90125]

Wasn't Apollo in overall charge of all the Vipers ? In which case he held the rank of Captain, but the term Strike Captain was applied because he was the boss of all the other Viper pilots ?

Other viper pilots could have held the rank of Captain, so Apollo would have needed to have something to set him above the rest ?

Then again, and correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Lt.Sheba in charge of all Pegasus vipers, or at least that is the impression I got ?????

[BRG]

I too thought Lt Sheba was in charge of the Pegasus's Viper's.(Unless her old man was flying!). So maybe Strike Captain was the title given to the chief Viper pilot, regardless of his or her actual rank? I recall a scene in the new Battlestar mini when Cpt Apollo informes Lt Starbuck that he is now senior pilot, and she replies that she is not a big enough asshole for the job. This would seem to confirm ernie's theory!
BRG

[ernie90125]

ahh...the term strike leader makes more sense than strike captain. I don't remember the exact quote from whichever episode of BSG it was used in, but strike leader makes more sense to me....

[thomas7g]

The "strike" part makes me thing of someone who leads a mission.

What is a Flight Sargent? An enlisted guy who gets to fly a Viper?

[ernie90125]

I dunno, could it be someone who works on the flight deck ? They may not even be a pilot ?

[martok2112]

Yes, I would agree that the Commander rank in Battlestar Galactica is more of a designation than anything else.

Thinking in Naval terminology....an officer with the pay grade rank of Commander can be in command of a ship, but that person would be known as the "Captain" because that is the title that denotes that position.

So it is very possible that Adama holds an official rank...and that his designation as "Commander" is titular.

Think in these cases too... Colonel Tigh could very well be a Lt. Colonel...but the term Colonel is acceptable, just as it is acceptable to refer to a Lt. Commander as a Commander, or a Lt. Junior grade as a Lieutenant.

So it is possible that Adama's official rank could be "Colonel", or perhaps even "General" or "Admiral" (if the case is being the original Battlestar Galactica series , as in the Ron Moore Battlestar Galactica series there are Admirals which clearly denote a rank above ship's Commander).

And when it comes to Generals or Admirals you have in order of lowest to highest:

Brigadier General (one star) Rear Admiral Lower Half (one star)
Major General (two stars) Rear Admiral Upper Half (two stars)
Lt. General (three stars) Vice Admiral (three stars)
General (four star) Admiral (four star)

Yet, for brevity's sake it is acceptable to refer to them all simply as Admirals or Generals.

Respectfully,
Martok2112

[ernie90125]

Thinking in Naval terminology....an officer with the pay grade rank of Commander can be in command of a ship, but that person would be known as the "Captain" because that is the title that denotes that position.

This is quite possible, and has been seen in other sci-fi shows. For example, in ST:TNG, during an episode where they were doing wargames, Captain Picard called Commander Riker 'Captain Riker' when he was onboard the other vessel taking part...

Also, C3PO refered to Han Solo are 'Captain Solo' even though the story says he dropped out of the Imperial Academy when he rescued Chewie from slavery, and the Rebellion made him a General.

[ernie90125]

Regarding Solo: Warrior I agree with you, so the term Captain has a double meaning. Both a rank, and a responsibility.

Although you probably wouldn't say that Lt.Starbuck captains his Viper ?

That could lead to confusion, but is a planet Earth issue, not a BSG issue....

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by Warrior

Just like nearly all the "sergeant" ranks are referred to simply as "Sergeant".

Only two exceptions I know of in the Army, where you definatly call a "First Sergeant" by that rank... or call him "Top", an enlisted nick-name for the top enlisted dude in a company.

There is also, at the Battalion and above level, Command Sergeant Major ranks. They're above a First sergeant in rank AND position. These guys you refer to simply as Sergeant Majors.

You are correct in that regard, Warrior.

However, in the Marine Corps, Marine enlisteds are proud of their accomplishments, to include their ranks.

So, when you run into a Staff Sergeant in the Corps, he is properly addressed as "Staff Sergeant", and not "Sergeant" like in the other services. If you referred to him as just "Sergeant" he might have a few words with you, especially if you are in the service (regardless of which branch you serve). If you do that as a civilian, he might not be so grrrrr about it, because most civiilians aren't expected to know any better.

Even Marines with Private rank are proud of their accomplishments (indeed, getting through Marine Boot Camp is an accomplishment in and of itself). A Marine Private First Class (PFC) might take exception to someone calling him "Private".

The only exceptions I am aware of are "Lance Corporal" (a subordinate of "Corporal" --equivalent to E-3 "Private First Class" in the Army) where it is appropriate to refer to him/her as "Corporal".

And "Gunny" for pay grade E-7 in the USMC which is Gunnery Sergeant. Also, to my knowledge, Gunnery Sergeant is the only enlisted rank in the Corps where you may properly address him/her as "Sir" or "Ma'am."

In the Air Force, even if you are an NCO (that's Non Commissioned Officer for all you non military types , a subordinate will refer to you as, "sir."

In the norm of most military branches though, only Warrant and Commissioned officers are referred to as "sir"...and rarely referred to by their ranks by enlisted personnel.

In the case of Warrant Officers (who are given officer status for their technical proficiency, and not commission), you usually have Warrant Officer 1, Chief Warrant Officer 2, Chief Warrant Officer 3, and Chief Warrant Officer 4. It is appropriate (at least as last I remembered) for anyone (sub or superior) to refer to a Chief Warrant Officer as "Chief." (Personally, to avoid confusion...If I had to salute you in passing, you were a "sir" in my book.)

Respectfully,
Martok2112 (ex-Army guy)

The reason I was asking about Flight Sargents is that Jolly was a Flight Sargent. He was often shown flying a Viper and bagging Cylons. It always seemed strange to me because in our military forces, you have to be an officer of some sort to pilot an aircraft. Maybe he enlisted and then qualified to fly. I never thought he attended the academy like Apollo and Starbuck.

[Redeye]

For anyone who is interested, here's a link to a review of the Classic episode "Gun on Ice Planet Zero"...

http://battlestarfanclub.com/battlestar/bgeprev8.htm

At the bottom of this review, under "Tidbits & Nitpicks", is a discussion of the original show's use of naval terms and protocols. There is also a suggestion of how other navies (non-English-speaking) handle rank. I would note that in Ron Moore's miniseries, Tyrol was a "chief", clearly making him a Chief Petty Officer.

[Redeye]

Originally Posted by Bijou88

The reason I was asking about Flight Sargents is that Jolly was a Flight Sargent. He was often shown flying a Viper and bagging Cylons. It always seemed strange to me because in our military forces, you have to be an officer of some sort to pilot an aircraft. Maybe he enlisted and then qualified to fly. I never thought he attended the academy like Apollo and Starbuck.

I the one episode "Greetings From Earth" the first part, during the first confrontation in the Galactica's landing bay, Geller of the Council of Twelve refers to Jolly as a "lieutenant". Go figure.

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by Warrior

Jolly may have startd off as a Flight Sergeant, but remember this:

"We're a little short on pilots."

Since Jolly was available and was familiar with Vipers (working on them, he no doubt had to test fly some of them to see if they were operating correctly), he was made a Viper pilot.

"At the bottom of this review, under "Tidbits & Nitpicks", is a discussion of the original show's use of naval terms and protocols."

As mentioned above, OS BG's rank and command structure should *not* be looked at through present day Earth rank and command structures.

So technically, ther eshould be no "nitpicks" regarding it

I think Flight Sergeant is a standard flight officer rank in the Colonial Military, maybe like a 2nd LT. That would explain why Jolly hangs out in the officer's lounge and frats with LTs and CPTs.

As for the production Galactica was designed specifically to NOT mimic certain structures we are familiar with here on earth, thus giving it a more “otherworldly” feel. They could have easily used the Naval structure, or the Army structure, but chose not too. You can disagree with the production’s artistic decisions, but to say that it’s “not correct” is…well, not correct.

My tuppence


JJR

[BRG]

In the original series of BSG, is commander the top rank? I can't remember any Generals, Admirals or Marshals being mentioned. And Adama seems to hold a respect amoung his people as a great military leader. But in the new BSG, the commander of the Battlestar Atlantia was said too be an Admiral. Did they alter the rank structure for the new series? Or was it just no Admirals appeared in the original?
It makes me wonder.

And! Why was Adama giving orders to Cain if they are both Commanders? What is the protocol if you have two officers of equal rank in a situation like that? Is it leanth of service? Number of men under your command? Medals won? Or do they just flip a coin?

And Finally! Do Colonial officers wear rank insignia on they're uniforms? I honestly couldn't tell a Captain from a Lt! Apart from Cain's & Adama's uniforms, all warriors look the same too me!
BRG

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by BRG

In the original series of BSG, is commander the top rank? I can't remember any Generals, Admirals or Marshals being mentioned. And Adama seems to hold a respect amoung his people as a great military leader. But in the new BSG, the commander of the Battlestar Atlantia was said too be an Admiral. Did they alter the rank structure for the new series? Or was it just no Admirals appeared in the original?
It makes me wonder.


And! Why was Adama giving orders to Cain if they are both Commanders? What is the protocol if you have two officers of equal rank in a situation like that? Is it leanth of service? Number of men under your command? Medals won? Or do they just flip a coin?

It’s best not to take anything in the new series as indicative of how it was in Classic Galactica. Commander seems to have been the primary flag rank in the original series. Whether there were subdivisions there is unknown from the series. We do know from LL that Adama was the overall Commander in Chief (I think that was the term) of the Colonial forces, and probably had been at least since before the Pegasus was “lost”.

That would give him the authority necessary to relieve Cain of command.

Originally Posted by BRG

And Finally! Do Colonial officers wear rank insignia on they're uniforms? I honestly couldn't tell a Captain from a Lt! Apart from Cain's & Adama's uniforms, all warriors look the same too me!
BRG

There have been some fan-based attempts to establish a visible means of distinguishing rank, but there really wasn’t anything overtly obvious in the series. If the production team created rank indicators, they may have been lost in the filming.

I haven’t done the research others out there have, but a few of the differences that I have noted are:

Some warriors do not wear collar insignia on their shirts.
Some Flight Sergeants wear a single pin in the middle of the collar.
It seems that some of the striped piping on uniforms is bordered in some instances and not bordered in others.
There MAY be slight variations in the piping’s design.

JJR

[137th Gebirg]

Originally Posted by thomas7g

The "strike" part makes me thing of someone who leads a mission.

Something akin to "Fleet Captain", which, IIRC, is interchangable with Commodore during wartime maneuvers - basically a Captain who is in charge of a battlegroup that hasn't made it to Admiral yet.

I didn't have so much a problem with the rank structure as I did with the rank insignia. Some had different braid widths on the collar and cuffs, different numbers of those "" pips on the collar (both gold and silver), the combinations and permutations of which seemed to be used interchangably.

[ernie90125]

In the original Commander Adama seemed answerable to the President, who oddly appeared to also command the Battlestar Atlantia.

I think this question :

And! Why was Adama giving orders to Cain if they are both Commanders?

is answered by this :

The higher ranking person takes command of the Fleet. In the case where the two (or more) are totally unrelated, then the longest reigning "captain" or the most experienced take charge.

Adama was the most experienced commander of the civilian fleet, and I doubt Cain would have wanted to be lumbered with the responsibilities for the fleet...perhaps that's why he took off after destroying the basestars !!!!!!!!!

[justjackrandom]

Originally Posted by thomas7g

The "strike" part makes me thing of someone who leads a mission.

I always figured it was like saying "CAG". Apollo was leader of Blue Squadron, but also in overall command of the other squadrons.

Just a thought.

JJR

[warhammerdriver]

Originally Posted by BRG

But in the new BSG, the commander of the Battlestar Atlantia was said too be an Admiral.

I think the Admiral in question was ABOARD the Atlantia, using her as his flagship.

[warhammerdriver]

Originally Posted by martok2112

In the Air Force, even if you are an NCO (that's Non Commissioned Officer for all you non military types , a subordinate will refer to you as, "sir."

And when you do that, the NCO will politely (well, sometimes not politely) tell you, "Don't call me sir. I work for a living."

WHD (Ex-USAF guy)

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by warhammerdriver

And when you do that, the NCO will politely (well, sometimes not politely) tell you, "Don't call me sir. I work for a living."

WHD (Ex-USAF guy)

Wow...that's wild...perhaps it is only in Basic Training for Air Force then. Honestly, when I was at Kelly AFB (Army Unit attached to good ol' Fort Sam Houston) all the lower ranking enlisteds I ever met had referred to every senior enlisted as "sir". (And that was even in the regular units.) Perhaps times have changed.

WHD, could it be possible then that I might have just been seeing recruits in basic training who may have been indoctrinated to that (and then they are told to ease up on the "sirs" after graduation)? I do believe you that NCO's in the Air Force would tell subordinates "I work for a living." I just want to know if perhaps I was not seeing the forest for the trees in this matter.

And yes, definitely in the Army, no NCO rates a "sir".

Although I never got "sir"ed, it was funny, my first day as a sergeant.

(flashback swirls)

This is during my Army Reserve time.
My pay stubs were reflecting that I was now a pay grade E-5 (Sergeant) in the Army. I was gunning for Drill Sergeant school, and had already completed PLDC. (Primary Leadership Development Course...for all you Non-Army types ) Now, to go through DS school, you have to be a sergeant. Well...I did not know that I was promotable so quickly. Anyway, I walk into my unit, (still with my Specialists ' shields on) and everyone is like "Mornin', Sgt. Dunlap". I thought to myself "Wow, I guess it's true."

So, then later I run into my First Sergeant. (Now, normally a promotion is usually done with ceremonies...and I thank GOD above that I did NOT have to go through any ceremony). Anyhoo, he says: "Dunlap, those Specialist shields look a little light on your shoulders, I think."

"Yes, Top (an accepted reference for First Sergeants for the benefit of our non-military folk), they do feel a little light." I replied.

"Well, there should be some orders posted in your office. Go get em'."

I moved out, got my orders, and brought them back. He produced a pair of fresh Sergeant's chevrons, and pinned them on me, giving me back my Specialist's shields. "Congradulations, Sergeant Dunlap."

I thought to myself, "Cool. No ceremonies. No saluting. Here I am, finally, Sgt. Dunlap."

But the funny part was to occur shortly after my promotion.

There was a Private First Class (pay grade E-3) who looked a little lost in the corridors. He snapped to Parade Rest (for our non-Military folk, that is a position where you stand tall, feet slightly apart, hands clasped behind your back. Think of it as an alternate form of "attention". In basic training and Advanced Individual Training, recruits did this in the presence of Non Commissioned Officers). He says: "Good morning, Sergeant." Loud and proud.

I look around in confusion. Is this guy talking to me? Seeing that there were no other NCO's around, I replied with a grin: "Private, relax. This isn't BT or AIT anymore. I'm glad to see that the mentality is still with you, but you can relax. And when there aren't any other high-ups around, my name is Steve, okay."

He immediately relaxed.

With the ice broken, I then asked him why he looked so lost.

He told me that he was due to be promoted today to the rank of Specialist, and that Supply was out of Spec. shields. I grinned, and said "This is your lucky day."
I asked him to produce his orders. He did. I looked over the orders, they seemed to be good, so I said : "Attention!" He snaps to. I put my old Specialist shields on his collars, and did one of those priestly cross deals. This gave us both a good laugh.

No one came to me that day asking me about what happened...so I guess I did good.


My defining comedic moment that day though was getting in the chow line. This one female Sergeant First Class (whom I loved to death...she was my mentor, guru, and friend) turns and asks me: "So, how are ya feelin' now, Sergeant Dunlap?"

Doing my best Droopy impersonation, I replied: "You know what? I'm happy. Hooray."

I swear I thought she was gonna fall down the stairs to the chow hall she was so in a laughing fit.

(flashback swirls back to present)

sigh....anyway, just thought I'd share a "Humor in Uniform" moment with y'all.


to all our brothers and sisters who have worn the uniform and served the United States of America, or their country (Colony) of service.

Martok2112

[martok2112]

Originally Posted by Warrior

I went to PLDC in Germany

Which DS school were you planning on going to? Did you go?

Wasn't PLDC just the coolest? (I graduated 2nd in my class with a 98.7% average. Missed one freakin' question out of the total of my exams in which I scored 100%)

I probably would've gone to Fort Jackson again...but I do not know because I had to back out of DS School before it began. At the time, my mother was dying in the hospital, and it was taking its toll on me emotionally. (I was told I was better off backing out before the school began, as opposed to going, and then having to drop out in the middle of training.) The Reserve unit that I was with was a Drill Sergeant unit. (And they had asked me in the beginning if I was interested in DS school because of the way in which I "positively" dealt with recruits.) I regret that I did not get to go...I am sure it would've been quite the experience...not to mention, having an Xray designation on your MOS woulda been cool. In the Reserves, even a 71L (Admin Spec.) could go for DS School...whereas I think in the Regular Army, you have to be Infantry, or some other Combat Arms MOS.

Hey, Warrior, PM me about your PLDC experiences. I would like to read about them.


Martok2112