[Fragmentary]

“Just out of curiosity, do you say the same thing about the classic characters of Star Trek? I'm bringing that in for a reason because Star Trek never had to see it's classic characters "reimagined" to satisfy anyone, and I think that is important when judging the characters of TOS in the context of what we typically saw on sci-fi TV in that era. These were characters who had to learn and deal with the consequences of what went on before in ways that no other sci-fi characters ever had to, coming as they did from self-contained formula shows where on Star Trek.”

Actually I would say that’s a pretty fair argument for the characters in the original series of Trek. I suppose it might be less obvious since each episode was self contained and you never saw story points carry over into the next show or season. But, yeah, it wasn’t until the movies that Kirk and crew started changing or becoming deeply textured. In II we saw the flip side of Kirk’s philandering ways with his estrangement from his son, and in VI we see his true feelings for Klingons come out. Due to the events set in motion in the movies, not the series I might add. So, I’d consider the original crew, at least on the show, to have been pretty shallow. Still lovable and great to watch, just not very deep.

”Really? We saw Apollo get married in the second episode, and then saw the rug pulled out from under him. We saw Starbuck change from the "space Casanova" who would juggle women to a virtual monogamist with Cassiopeia by season's end. We saw Apollo in "Hand Of God" finally break out of a shell with women the result of losing his wife, with Sheba. We saw new details about Boomer and his expertise in other areas, we saw Starbuck's past explored regarding his orphan history that let us probe his psyche more and understand his nature. That's a pretty good effort for just 17 original episodes!”

Most of what you list is just character background. I’m not saying that they didn’t have stories and histories. I’m just saying that you always knew how each character was going to behave. There were no surprises, no learning about themselves from their experiences.

”(Apollo) did the WRONG thing in "The Lost Warrior" by not acting quickly enough against the Cylon and the end result was the death of Bootes.

That is an interesting take, but Bootes didn’t die because Apollo did something unexpected or out of the ordinary. In fact, he died BECAUSE Apollo followed his established parameters so rigidly. Apollo would never do anything rash, or anything morally dubious, no matter what the consequences, even if it meant a character dying because of it. And that’s exactly what did happen. What if Apollo hadn’t waited until he was completely positive that no greater fury would befall the community? What if he had just acted on passion and strapped on his laser and gunned down the Cylon? That would have been intriguing stuff. Instead, he did just as we knew he would. And following on that, someone died because of it, but did Apollo learn something from that? Did we see him learn from that and take action sooner in a situation later on because of that? Did we even see him mention in passing that he might have made a mistake?

"And he was always concerned about everyone's feelings and making his father proud of him. A great guy, but a shallow character. "
”What is "shallow" about what you've just described?”

Those traits aren’t shallow, it’s the fact that they are never called into question, never challenged. Apollo is never put in a situation where doing what must be done would force him to break out of that established mold. His true mettle is never tested. He is allowed to always do the right thing and everything works out for him because of it.


”(Starbuck) got himself taken prisoner in LPOTG; fouled up in "Long Patrol" by letting himself get knocked out and his viper stolen; got tricked into becoming constable in "The Magnificent Warriors"; certainly didn't handle himself correctly in getting set up for a murder charge; made unjust accusations against his friends when they did a simple background check on Chameleon. Not exactly a case of "always doing the right thing".

I didn’t mean that he never made mistakes. He did. I just meant that his character of the lovable rogue is exactly what he was all of the time. A lovable rogue. Sure, he was charged with murder, but there was no doubt that he wasn’t capable of such a thing. There was never any instance when he actually broke the rules. In “The Magnificent Warriors” he’s duped into becoming the constable and what does he do? Fulfills his obligation… all the way to the point of finding a new constable so that he can get out of the job. Look at him compared to a contemporary, Han Solo. Granted, he’s not much deeper I don’t hold him as a paragon for character depth, but in the original version of the first movie, he guns down Greedo in the cantina. That’s important because through out the rest of the trilogy, he always does the right thing, always. But at the end of Star Wars, you really think that he’s leaving since he has got his reward, and the reason is because he shot Greedo. He actually did something against type, and that made his character richer, there was an arc of sorts, if you squinted. There was no arc in Starbucks character. No shade of gray.

”You seem to be equating "depth" with characters who are mental screw-ups about something and have to have some amount of dysfunctionality in their lives, and I just don't accept that premise.”

Real people aren’t all mental screw ups, but you can’t always predict what each person will do in every situation because each person is constantly growing and learning and adapting. Because of that, sometimes people do the wrong things and sometimes they surprise you by being unexpectedly understanding or generous. They’ll see a weakness or flaw in their personality and try to change it and that’s where an individual’s character arc comes from. If Starbuck had seen that he was hurting Athena and so decided to get into a monogamous relationship with Cassie, then that would have been a character development. But we never see how any of the changes to the structure of the show come from the characters learning something about themselves or each other.

”See above comments regarding Apollo and women, and how "Hand Of God" gave us a dramatic turning point with his potential new relationship with Sheba.”

It wasn’t a dramatic turning point at all. Apollo is seemingly clueless about how he might feel about Sheba until she lets her guard down and forces him to see the forest for the trees. BUT, and this is important, nothing comes of it in the episode. We don’t see Apollo and Sheba at the end, taking the first steps in developing a new relationship. We see Apollo and Starbuck, just like always. Apollo being serious and trying to catch another transmission and Starbuck goading him on about the awards they’re supposed to get. Now maybe Apollo did learn something about himself, and about how he’s pushed women away since his wife died. But it’s not in the episode. It’s not articulated by him, or spoken of by the other characters. Fans might “see” it as being there, but that’s still just an interpretation. Nothing on screen explicitly lays out that Apollo has grown.

”So much for Athena and Aurora. And by season's end he was no longer juggling multiple women, he had moved closer to Cassiopeia. That's my definition of an evolving character who's learning and that was what made Galactica a refreshing departure from before.”

But again, you are supposing that something has happened off screen to explain this. You are reading into the story that Starbuck realized that he really loved Cassie or that he was hurting Athena. In reality, Athena was written out of the show. We never see Starbuck deal with the repercussions of his actions. We never see him say to someone that he’s realized something. The closest we get to that, is Starbuck’s vague announcement to Boomer in the beginning of the TYL. And again, whatever realization Starbuck had, goes unspoken. But it certainly never changed his behavior. He was always going to do the right and sensible thing when push finally came to shove.

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