Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

Oddly enough, as much of a fan as I am of the current SFX of Transformers, Iron Man, Avatar, etc., I find myself in much agreement with Eric's stand. I'll admit I enjoyed the Star Wars special edition releases, but the films themselves lost much of their original charm and impact with the tinkering.

To "upgrade" an original needs to be carefully considered before being attempted. In 99% of the cases, the answer should be "no."

However, BG may - and I emphasize the "may" - be within that 1% that would benefit from remastering the SFX. But to be successful, they must have the exact right hand on the helm, and not do what Lucas did with Star Wars.

Every scene must remain intact, as aired. No adds, subtracts, no new CGI daggits inserted, no new CGI Cylons. The only thing a remaster should do is replace the repeated shots, like the two-raider kill while #3 banks off, and the raider exploding after being shot by the gun turret.

And those new shots must look like they were done in 1978, with real models.

Seamless.

Otherwise, I'm with Eric. Don't change a thing.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

Well you must not like DK's BG edits then Dawg, cos DK while respecting the BG original outputs and was keeping the original content intact, he definitely took certain liberities with his own adjustments and SE upgrades with his fan edits as well.

Alright the key word here, being a fan edit. But it still amounts to the same end result, an interesting ; "what if" SE restoration of the original series if the studio themselves had done it instead etc!

If DK had the resources and did his own Remastered high quality edits of Battlestar Galactica as we're talking about. With models and well as CGI meshes fitted in there etc. You're going to tell me you wouldn't let personal bias of one of our own doing a successful edit would be different or more unexceptable than Universal doing it, if they did it the same way?!

I think not!

Come bet you'd be more willing to except it if it were DK's version rather than an official studio remastering even if it were done correctly as you say.

And there is nothing truly "Seamless" about any SE thats been done, EVER. A digital effect is just that, even subtle minor ones are just that; 'digital'. ST:TMP is said to be respectful to Robert Wise's vision and thats true, but lets not kid ourselves, if those SE effects were done optically, it wouldn't look anywhere near as clear or digitally neat as the existing current Star Trek: TMP re-edit does. If its done in 1979 then its done in 1979, if its done in 2000 then its obviously done in 2000. Seamless doesn't mean some stylised tampering wasn't done to improve it years later down the road. Seamless just means the 'said' job was very convincing and handled well, cos its very photorealistic or still very appealing to the eyes better yet, is all.

I certainly don't see why the deleted scenes can't be restored and inserted back into their original slots for a "remastered" edition. There aren't any commercial times or airing window's a 'Special Edition' has to answer to? And the editing of the original smoothed out as well, makes for logical sense doesn't it. Unless your always for; Boomer and Apollo drawing their blaster guns on Sheba & Bojay in Living Legend "out of order" one minute with guns drawn, the next drop a line of dialogue with no guns, yet put'em away when the 'kaxlon alarm' goes off.

Thats like huh.....?

And like i said, a Blu-Ray disc can hold the original untampered '78 version, long as a brand new 2010-plus remastered version in there as well, then = EVERYBODY WINS!!!

Nuff said! ;)

KJ

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

I love David's edits. Particularly the Return of Starbuck one. But he approached it with the right attitude, not the same attitude that Lucas took with the Star Wars re-edit. In fact, the Star Trek remasters took the right attitude, too.

But every tweak, no matter how perfect, takes away from the original. Remember the uproar over colorizing some classic movies? The whole point to that was that it took away from the vision and impact that the original had, that the filmmaker had a vision and that vision came through in black and white - colorizing took that away.

I can appreciate the upgrades - I did enjoy the Star Wars remasters, but the impact was greatly lessened by the editing Lucas did.

I reiterate - every tweak takes away. Adding scenes that weren't there before changes the whole package.

My thinking is that the oft-repeated SFX of BG detracted from the storytelling; we were jerked back to the here-and-now, out of the story and into the technology of film making, each time we recognized the same raider exploding once or twice each episode. That is what I would change in a remastered version - and that's the only thing.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

*****Mr Paddon quit the procrastination seriously, take a look at the thread since you've posted? If you disagree with everybody on Matador thread fair enough. But this isn't leading anywhere, when you drag this out about how you don't agree on a topic most of us are interested in. We're trying to take this beyond mere debating and into something worthwhile if the Galactica fanbase moved in this direction or if fans support it enough to make a official campaign. Its one thing to disagee its another to to drag down somebody else's thread harpng on about how you don't like it nor see the point etc etc. Thats been said enough times. I saw you and Taranis having having a few barbs this morning from my clock, then early this afternoon i could've said one thing in a reply or so but figured i've said enough so far and let everybody else talk it out, and went out cos i had things doing in town today******

I think what I expressed is a legitimate POV, and I was having it in the course of a civil discussion. OTOH, this comes off to me as an outright personal attack and a demand that the discussion be a one-way street on the topic which conjures for me some unpleasant memories of about five years ago when I discovered that certain individuals had developed the attitude that saying one harsh word about a certain reimagined TV show was "hurtful to their psyche" and that only positive things could ever be said about it. For something like this, where like it or not, there *is* a legitimate argument from the other side rooted in issues of preservation (because it is a fact that the original version of Star Wars, which is the one that *became* a phenomenon may end up lost to us forever because the care of remastering the negative of the original version won't be given us given Lucas's preference for SE editions that force the viewer to accept SW as a sequel to the prequel films rather than a product of its time) is something I think needs to be part of the discussion, along with the issue of whether or not this sudden modern-day obsession with redoing FX sequences has the ability to cheapen the areas of what constitutes the more important part of cinematic storytelling. So far, I have not heard an answer from the other side on this point, and have only heard it said that we can adopt selective standards on what kinds of film and TV should fall victim to this kind of "reimagining" and which ones (that arguably could use it more if one is concerned about realism in FX like "Forbidden Planet") which to me isn't much of an answer I can understand.


*****For real, for Matty and everybody else's sake no drawn out arguing please. No "ego" crap in this thread. *****

I think in light of your remarks aimed at me, that sentiment rings a bit hollow from my perspective. But I will agree on one thing, this topic does not belong in a section in which the purpose was to generate discussion on suggested ways of improving or fixing the original episode *stories* if we were ever given the chance to make new scripts for some theoretical new project using the old stories. As the one who suggested the creation of the "New Twists" section for that purpose, I think seeing that side of discussion on the creative side subordinated to the one about FX making is something I don't have much reason to be in favor of, but until today I never felt I had reason to say that publicly. Being told that there should only be one side of a discussion in this thread has at least given me a reason to say otherwise now.

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

I agree with this 100%. The only issue I have with the series is how often the same shots are used over and over. That is the only change I would support. I'd rather see a well shot model over CGI any day. The thing that hasn't stood up over the years is the reused footage. It is the one thing that pulls someone seeing the show for the first time right now straight of the experience.

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

I agree with the fact that some aspects of the Star Wars reworked where best left alone and should have been left alone....what I think they should have been is neither here or there in this discussion.


I think I said that the movie or pilot Episode of BSG should be reworked and given a updated effects to fix the short comings of the effect that are present..

CGI or Physical Models . (I don´t care as long as it done right) keeping the intention and the spirit intact should be the aim esp for the first one..

but there are things that would be done to enhance the viewing experience
for BSG.

something I would like to see address that has always held my interest and giving me cause for speculation. I not going to mention them as there is no point at present.

The following series need new effects as I and others have posted that the repeat use of the Pilot Episode / Movie is irksome. (mind you when the did add a new effect it was great)

I would use CGI as it the easiest to film and control..

I not trying to change anyone mind´s here Eric´s or other wise. I respect Eric´s POV I think it wrong as much as he think mine is wrong ..... that OK

but apart from a fan effort a remastering is not going to happen soon if you expect it from a studio. that´s a given.

DK (David) work is a stunning approach and he should be applauded.

bottom line for me is the original Effect are hurting the viewing experience for the show.

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

Thats your perspective, not the reality though, its more or or less saying you've got an opinion and are entitled to it, but i've got the facts. If thats the case, then fair enough player. And just cos you started or co-opted an idea for a thread secton doesn't in anyway whatsoever mean you *police* the Battlestar Galactica fanbase opinions on things. I'm pretty sure Myself, Matador and Taranis and others views on the matter are certainly similarly shared beyond this thread on BG forums throughout the internet on the same issue o.k.

And a "legitimate POV" regardless shouldn't be bullied upon anybody.

You may feel this discussion is being demanded by me to be a one-way street, but that not what i'm asking for at all. Your basically insulting Matador by deliberately arguing something you know outright your against, i.e. stirring up arguing rather aggressively without due cause. I don't mind other members sharing your opinions, but they don't nearly come off as you do when discussing this. And come bet if you didn't post an opinion and they did, while disagreeing with them, the tone wouldn't feel so destructive.

Seriously you need to look at yourself before harping on about how its your right to have this POV etc and yet come off being 'mister' know-it-all and sound as if you sabotaging Matador's thread out of spite. Suggesting a thread to CF doesn't mean whatever your presently not in favor of, doesn't mean you get to practically 'lamblast' other CF members views on a subject you don't hold onto yourself. Its the nature inwhich you've made your opinions felt that came off as *an attack* in itself, in other words!



Please who are you preaching to with that kind of comment? So Taranis and myself are now Ginoids supporting the "Gino" fanbase way of thinking now eh? That insulting in itself to lable anybody on CF with regardless of your personal thoughts on them. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill!

Moving on i want to answer somebody else's input

And i'll also reiterate. Media especially when it comes down to DVD/Blu-Ray film or science fiction Television offers a choice, between an Original or Special Edition incarnation. This will not change now o.k., yes it might change the whole package THATS THE POINT, a necessary upgrade artistically speaking which keeps the interest int he story present by smoothing out a few things which look so badly outdated years later down the road.

And point of fact, the majority of most success sci-fi fantasy films and TV shows now as of 2010 HAVE Original and Special Edition versions. Not many well known creations don't have these.

Want examples...o.k.

1) Terminator 2 Judgement Day Theatrical cut & Special edition (Also DVD edition with the "Future Coda" ending)

2) Aliens 1986 Theatrical followed by 1992 Special Edition (Which is seen as the definite cut over its theatrical cut)

3) Star Trek TOS 1966 & 2006 Remastered series. Nuff said.

4) Star Trek movies (TMP, TWOK director edition, TUDC laserdisc extended cut) etc etc.

5) The Lord Of The Rings trilogy (theatrical and Extended editions)

6) Babylon 5 The Gathering. Original 1993 version Vs 1998 Special Edition.

7) Close Encounters Of The Third Kind. Blu-Ray disc contains all 3 versions of the same film with all numerous cuts etc

8) The Abyss (at this point listing James Cameron movies confirms my points to no end!)

9) Red Dwarf. Which has an original broadcasted version Vs the newer CGI remastered picture quality versions.

10) Star Wars. Should i really go on at this point?


Think you'll find every major TV and film Sci-fi and fantasy had a regular and special edition cuts, either close soon after its original release or much later onwards a few short years or decades later. Points been made all the same though, which Taranis said earlier but much more beautifully.

BG would need to sustain its one season cult status by going further and reinventing/revitilising itself through putting out a "special edition/remastered" version today 30 plus years later. And god knows a Blu-Ray picture BG would be beautiful to gaze at let alone listen to with a 5.1 or 7.1 surround soundtrack!!!

KJ

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

This is pretty awesome model and lots of detail. Think there is way to get this to use in 3ds Max?
Think the creators of this model would give me OK to use it?

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

Folkrm model is not publicly available .... I did have it myself at one point but lost it when My old PC Crashed ..

Maudib is still in the building stage .

I hope to some day see these available for future fan art or film ... short of building it myself .... but that will not be in the near future at least until my present Star Trek fan film modelling is done.

fingers crossed for the Big G release in the future

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

some of these I did not know about ... must have a look for them
esp this one Babylon 5 The Gathering. Original 1993 version Vs 1998 Special Edition. B5 is great and I have the complete collection
I agree with you here on this .. I would not buy another DVD release unless the effects where properly address as was mentioned already.

It would need to be tastefully done with all due consideration to the original intent of the film makers as did foundation Imaging did for ST TMP which is the best example I can think off..... forget the Star Wars versions for now that is Lucas input on his creative project.. his vision and he in the past stated when the original films where done the technology was not available for his vision which is why he waited until it was available to do the prequels. whether we personally like them or not is another story. save for jar jar binks I did like them ...

BSG TOS should be given the same due consideration as these other films / shows given it place in the history of entertainment.

Robert Wise was personally involved with the remastering of ST TMP. there is no reason why the same count not be done for BSG.

but I would no more shove my ideas at any one but I feel the TOS BSG is stagnating compared to the aforementioned shows and films.

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

I believe there are facts to support my perspective too because this comes down to a subjective question on whether altering with a work is a good thing or not. I happen to believe it is not, and I cited a number of examples to note how this standard that is being called on for Galactica would never in a million years be applied elsewhere, and while you may not agree with that, it is a legitimate perspective rooted in a factual context.


*****And just cos you started or co-opted an idea for a thread secton doesn't in anyway whatsoever mean you *police* the Battlestar Galactica fanbase opinions on things*******

I never said I did. That is the attitude you assumed unto yourself yesterday with your out of line hit job on me in which you declared that this issue is to be discussed only among advocates on one side of it. There was nothing out of line in how I was doing the back and forth with Taranis and I had in fact chosen after his last comment to move on, only to come back to it long afterwards when I saw your little hit job from out of left field which was all too reminscent of what made 2005 an unpleasant year in Galactica discussion circles. And don't try to suggest I was including Taranis in that, those remarks were directed solely at your one post.

****And a "legitimate POV" regardless shouldn't be bullied upon anybody.***

And once again, I say, physician heal thyself. You chose to act like a bully toward me because I was having an ongoing conversation on the issue.

*****Your basically insulting Matador by deliberately arguing something you know outright your against, i.e. stirring up arguing rather aggressively without due cause.******

I haven't even addressed Matador once so that is another lie on your part. I simply chose to register my view that advocating redone FX for Galactica is harmful to the integrity of the work of the original, and as one whose primary field of expertise is historical preservation it carries with it the dangerous risk that the original works get lost forever in the process which is what's happening with the SW trilogy, plus that there are questionable artistic reasons behind the concept when the standard is not applied consistently.

****And come bet if you didn't post an opinion and they did, while disagreeing with them, the tone wouldn't feel so destructive. ***

You are the one who introduced a destructive tone into this thread, so I suggest you quit your little game of projecting your own behavior onto myself.

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

The main problem with this discussion (I wouldn't call it an arguement) is that everyone is right. Both sides are 100% correct. How is this possible? Cause it's all opinion. none of us had anything to do with the original production (writing and putting the show together) so we can't say that the Released Show doesn't match our vision (Aliens Special Edition, The Abys Special Edition) Or what was done to the Star Trek movies.

I am split on the Star Wars Changes myself. I've been a DIE HARD Star Wars fan since I saw the previews as a 5 year old. It's been a DRIVING force in my imagination since then. And I have spent untold amounts of money on costumes so I can cling to a part of that legacy (through charity work in costume and official LFL events) I think Some of the additions to the Special Editionm and the DVD edition helped the story. I love the redone Space Battle of ANH. the Establishing shots of Mos Eisley and Bespin give you a better scale for both settings. Changing walls to windows in Empire it more in keeping with a City in the clouds. You'd want it open. I even like the insertion of the Jabba the Hutt Scene in ANH. It adds to Solo's mindset and shows he NEEDS that money. But when Lucas changed the story is where I don't like it. Greedo shooting first, changed dialog between Vader and the Emperor. this was not needed or wanted.

The worst thing Lucas then did here was say "this is Star Wars now, Deal with it, we won't release the Theatrical cuts anymore" If we do this, and IF we get UIniversal to back it, release it, anything like that, We have to do it ALONG SIDE the original Versions. Because Those are the editions that people fell in love with.

I'm with Monolith, The Space battles, the reused SFX shots, the Same battle, over and over again, at this point, takes away from the show for me. I want, and yes, I mean me, myself lol, unique battles every time those Vipers launch. using the cockpit scenes, and dialog EXACTLY as it was in the show. Enhance the color, restore the footage, but don't change it.

Insert the re-edited Return of Starbuck (minus the G1980 stuff) into the series officially. And I like DK's use of the DeSanto Viper here. It shows that time has passed.

Let the Raiders have more variety, it's been shown that in some SFX shots there is a Gold Raider in the formation. Show this and let the Gold Cylon Raider be derstroyed, appear again in other shots (this was supposed to be Cylon Squadron leaders as I understand it, where a Gold Cylon would be flying) Let Baltar's Raider be such a Raider. DK had Baltar flying in a special Raider in his edit. it'd be easier to color the Raider Gold as a Squadron Leader/Command Raider.

I'd support the insertion of SOME deleted material. But when we do this, having the Original DVDs continue to be available is more important for those who don't want changes. If we get Universal backing and release, I'd want a Box set release similar to the Alien Quintology. Having both versions in the same box and allow everyone to be happy!

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

you have made some excellent point Reaper.. having both versions would be nice . I already have the original on DVD and I love to watch it from time to time.

General Reply:
I am not going to repeat all the points I made before to show where I agree ..

I respect all the views here from everyone . in agreement with me or not
it only my view point after all. Eric´s and Dawg´s views are as valid as mine and KJs and all the one for a remastering. again its not going to happen from a studio .. they don´t care as they have the new version to milk first..

and no matter what happens not everyone is going to be happy with it.
we can be banging our head against this from now to Xmas and still won´t agree if some one is generally in apposition to a remastering of the Show..

and I am certainly not going to be involved in one.

I think the thread should resume with the originators original desire (sounds great that bit) :D

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

Gentlemen,

I've had to open the windows since it's getting a little warm in the room.

Please remember to keep the remarks focused on the topic and not the poster.



In honor of Mother's Day, I'm going to close the thread for the day since you will, no doubt, be attending to those more important in your lives. I'll re-open it tomorrow morning after awakening... (EDT)


Enjoy the day.

;)

BST

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

As promised, the thread is now re-opened.

Please focus on the issue and debate it to your heart's content.


BST

:salute:

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

Hello all,

Just letting everyone know that i'm still working on my CG Galactica stuff to be added into a "remastered BSG concept".

I've had a few emails asking me to repost the link to my youtube site with what I've done so far.

Here it is.
http://www.youtube.com/danakinobi#p/a/u/1/cThC2FQh8SI

http://www.youtube.com/danakinobi#p/a/u/0/VjeqqRel_hI

I've been working with 3ds Max for all the modeling and animation. I'm working to make some cutscenes that I think would look cool in a remastered version.
I saw the link that has the CG modeled Galactica.

http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums...ad.php?t=17315

Very impressive. Detail is amazing.

I would like to get in contact with the creator or creators of that model to discuss methods used to detail the hull... Such as gun torrets, pipes, and all the awesome hull plating.
So if anyone knows... Please let me know.
Cheers,
Matador

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

well the modeller is maudib and he is using lightwave for his model.

as for the details no idea .. But I am sure he would be happy to pass on his ideas ..

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

Hmmm? Very interesting dialogue and opinion there too Reaper. Yeah but i gotta say dude that, some opinions, are more valid than others especially when backed with "common sense" and having a vision, of keeping the old girl renewed in the public eye!

Don't want it to sound arrogant or anything. Just that i'm applying a smart rationale of what Taranis, myself and others have hit upon earlier in this debate. Keeping it as it was, only applying and placing emphasize on digital tweaks to clear the picture, having a 5.1 surround sound track and editing flubs fixed.

Thats hardly making massive changes to storylines is it?

Thats what were debating however, how to go about it while keeping it from becoming what Lucas did with SW and what Paramount could've done with Star Trek Remastered.

The Star Trek Remastered episodes aren't massively changed, if anything their problem lies in the fact, they a) they weren't worked on enough and digital flubs now exist b) fans have issue with the fact it wasn't worked on long enough to make it even better as many opportunities were lost c) its budget could've been much bigger considering Star Trek's global impact and the sheer money $$$ Parmount Pictures rakes in of off Star Trek's name as a franchise etc. Same goes with Star Wars and 20th Century Fox!

Battlestar Galactica at Universal can't claim the same thing.

Both Star Wars and Star Trek despite the digital changes made to their respective SE editions in recent years. Are enjoying and making serious amounts of money off of; newer, cleaner/crisp, surround sound mastered, re-broadcasted (ST), etc and thus enjoy a rebirth of interest cos their franchises are being kept alive by renewed interest over time and their classics cleaned and polished every now and then?

Still gonna brag about the classic BG series in 10 or 15 years time when the newer technology like 'Super HD', 3D or even early hologramatic technology hits the market and first and second generation DVD's of the late 20th century early 2000's become like the LP's, A-tracks and old VHS recorders of yesteryear?

Space 2099 currently taking advantage of the situation?! So why should their be the old 'procrastination' of keep a cult classic looking outdated and so old-ish when it can also easily enjoy the benefits of having a facelift substantially and keep up with its sci-fi peers if you understand the metaphors i'm going with here! Overfamiliarity with the 2003 DVD release might make you think it ends there, but i don't think so. Can't see why BG couldn't simply go the HD Blu-Ray, IPod/IPhone download or 'online website download' even route, once its been remastered.

I've frequently asked this in the past, so at least everybody knows i'm damn well absolutely genuine about my feelings on the situation. Its a legitimate request and i feel Matador, myself, DK, TwoBrainedCylon, Titon, Jjrakman etc have all been down this discussion so many times in the past. Because it'll be a worthwhile endeavour for the fanbase and Battlestar Galactica in general!

We want a Galactica theatrical movie, but when it seems the studio's jerking us around again, we lose that "tie-in" to revisit to the classic series getting a technological boost too!

Taranis and Matador are absolutely right though. Just like Space 2099, reckon any BG SE lies with the fans now. And any unified fanbase project would make sure it certainly wouldn't ever go off the rails with whackyness etc! Beyond the BG movie, beyond the previous CFF Ad efforts, and the Hatch BG:TSC and Singer/DeSanto BG TV revival. A BG:SE is the only thing worth going after in that order of things. Comic book adaptations and FanFiction fall behind anything media related and you know it, thats simple basic facts of the situation, and not opinions!

Think about it! :cool::salute:

KJ

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

In a word, yes. For the same reason that fifteen years from now the 1933 King Kong will still be regarded better than the flash in the pan that was Jackson's.

That is my definition of "common sense." To paraphrase Adama in LL, it may not be others, but it is, as others have at least acknowledged an equally valid perspective relative to this issue.

Re: Remastered BattleStar Galatica?
 

Some Opinions are never more valid then someone else's Opinions. You may get more people to agree with your opinion, but that does not make it more Valid, simply more acceptable.

You can back up your arguement and make your argument more valid, but Your opinion is simply that, your opinion. Based on your likes, dislikes, and values.

While you argue your side here, do not loose fact that not everyone will agree with you. And sometimes passion for a cause can put off people who do share your opinion, when you let that passion get away from you.