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-   -   08: Living Legend (http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8845)

Eric Paddon December 29th, 2004 10:54 PM

08: Living Legend
 
This thread will be for discussion on changes etc. on adapting episode #8 "Living Legend" and conforming the story to a continuous season arc storyline.

Senmut March 7th, 2005 09:09 PM

If anything, this ep deserved to be a three-parter. I so wish we could have seen more on Cain, and his background with Adama. These two obviously have a history, as well as seeing more background on Sheba would have been nice.
I would ask, did Adama and Cain ever serve together, as younger officers?

BRG March 8th, 2005 07:51 AM

I had a shot of the Battlestar Galactica video game a while ago. In the game it suggested tht Adama and Cain were both young Viper pilots together.

I'm not for one minute trying to suggest that the game is part of the official Galactica canon, but it is interesting. And like yourself Senmut, I would also like to see Adama & Cain's past explored.
BRG

Eric Paddon March 27th, 2005 10:51 PM

A lot of enjoyment came from doing this one since it is without question not simply one of the best BG episodes ever, but probably among the best in all sci-fi TV.

But even a magnificent episode like this needed some tweaks to iron out things that we can dismiss when they go by on-screen but not when writing a longer novelized treatment.

#1-The opening patrol scene where Sheba and Bojay end up opening fire on Apollo and Starbuck. First question to ask is, why didn't Our Heroes (an old term for Apollo and Starbuck that I remember fondly from old discussion days years ago) realize these were vipers right away? Some new dialogue to show that they were both caught so flat-footed and found themselves trying to escape quickly, they had no reaction time to do a rear scan check for ID which would have shown the attacking ships to be vipers like theirs.

#2-Setting the stage for an Apollo-Sheba relationship. Since "Hand Of God" is where we finally get it out in the open, the trick is to plant the seeds in a subtle way. I wanted Apollo to be left in a state of awe at being put in the precarious situation he was placed in, which made him want to know who the pilot who was outflying him was, and then when he sees the holo image of Sheba in Cain's office, his initial attraction/fascination with her is that someone so attractive and feminine could be the one who had demonstrated such superior skills. From then on, it's a case of Apollo showing a mild interest in her in terms of wanting to find reasons to talk to her further and learn more about her, but then stopping himself from going any further as he feels guilt over Serina hit him. I don't see Sheba as receptive to him yet, or sensing any kind of partial interest on his part in her, until the events of WOTG.

#3-More backstory for Sheba and the whole Sheba-Cassie conflict (and the Cain-Cassie romance). This requires learning more about Sheba's mother. I wrote my own backstory for who she was, what she did, how she died etc. (and gave her the name Bethany), but anyone is free to go in any direction on this. The one thing about Sheba's mother that should always be consistent in anyone's version is that Sheba is the very image of her mother appearance wise. This is explicitly stated in the original novelization, and all one has to do is then realize that if you were casting this part for a flashback sequence then you'd immediately pick June Lockhart for the obvious reason. To add to this, the fact that Sheba is the image of her mother I think best explains why Cain couldn't open up to her and lean on her for support after he'd lost his wife, because as I have him say to Cassie in my adaptation, every time he looked at Sheba's face, all he could see was her mother and then get hit by the guilt over not having been there at the time of her death.

#4-Was Colonel Tolen in on Sheba and Bojay's little mutiny plan? This needed clarifying so I wrote a scene of Tolen quietly telling Sheba and Bojay beforehand that while he sympathized with what they were doing, he couldn't lend active support to it.

#5-What happened to the Imperious Leader's baseship during the attack on Gomorrah (my preferred spelling just because I like using the OT city name)? I put forth the idea that it made an actual landing on the planet, perhaps docking with something like a dirigible mooring mast (which would be the way any battlestar or baseship could in effect land on a planet) and that during the Colonial attack, the baseship was knocked away from its mooring tethers and thus rendered inoperable in terms of being able to contribute to the battle.

#6-I decided to lay the foundation for keeping Spektor (Young Lords) around in the future by having Baltar recommend Spektor as the new base commander on Gomorrah, following the almost certain execution of the base commander by the Imperious Leader after what happened (the base commander clearly never told anyone about the raids from the Pegasus, and I think it's important to play up the base commander as the one who paid the ultimate price because there has to be a legit reason why Baltar got off the hook with the Imperious Leader after the events of this episode)

#7-Borrowing a page from the whole "Mission Galactica" concept, the adaptation of "Fire In Space" takes place just after the events of this episode, with Baltar, after the destruction of the two baseships and the disappearance of the Pegasus, decides to regroup by mounting the suicide fighter attack (thus my adaptation ends with a "To Be Continued" note).

Other things I worked in too, but these were the most significant changes. All done in the name of streamlining and tightening in some spots, expanding character depth in others but not changing anything of the basic plot which I think is flawless.

Raptor April 2nd, 2005 05:29 AM

Not sure if anyone else noticed this, but in the DVD version, a section where Cain was talking to Apollo + Starbuck was, IMHO, inserted in the wrong place. Not sure if this was just a flaw in the broadcast or something else.

IRCC, you have Cain meeting A+S, they return to fleet, Cain meets Cassie, then He's talking to A+S again:wtf:

This little thing is the main issue I have with this episode. Apart from them (the creators of the DVD's) leaving out bits but putting them in the 'Deleted Scenes' part.

SpyOne April 2nd, 2005 08:19 AM

That sounds familiar, as in I have read about it as a Variant Version of that episode.
The edit may have happened when they packaged it for syndication, or the DVD may derive from a telemovie version more than the original airing.

Tabitha September 7th, 2005 10:59 AM

Wouldnt it be intersting if Cain had mentioned that he had heard some radio traffic of maybe other ships, prehaps not battlestars, but destroyers, cruisers, ect... that escaped? After all, even the colonies wouldnt be dumb enough to assemble an ENTIRE fleet at once place. After all, there would need to be ships out doing military duties, such as space lane patrols and other functions. That being the case, wouldnt it stand to reason that at least SOME other ships survived? What about the colonial R&D base? surely a military secret that the cylons wouldnt have found right away, and my idea here, the origional battlestar, now a retired colonial training platform, to teach pilots to take off and land on a battlestar, surely they had something like that which wouldnt be a primary target for the initial cylon raid? If so, couldnt it be out there somewhere itself? I would have loved to have seen the look on Adama's face, "Oh by the way old boy, you left a perfectly viable fleet out there when you and the rest ran away from the fight..." outch... stinger there huh...

tabbi

Raptor September 7th, 2005 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabitha
... After all, there would need to be ships out doing military duties, such as space lane patrols and other functions. That being the case, wouldnt it stand to reason that at least SOME other ships survived?...

Thats one of the ideas I've got bouncing round my head for that FS2- BSG TC I've got planed.

I have really got to get round to doing some more work on those Colonial ships...
(retexturing highly detailed ship models for in game is nasty... :nervous: )

Eric Paddon September 26th, 2005 10:42 PM

How big a "Fleet" was in the Colonial military we never found out. I always saw it like a naval taskforce that might consist of a carrier or two and some support ships. Not necessarily a Fleet of many dozens of ships. In my vision, Cain had a second battlestar with him whose commander was junior to him, and maybe the equivalent of what in our navy would be a heavy cruiser or something like that. Ultimately, allowing for the losses Cain had to have suffered in the Battle Of Molocay it would theoretically be possible for him to have loaded survivors from other ships in his "Fifth Fleet" after it was clear the battle for Molocay was lost.

Kaith Rustaz September 26th, 2005 10:56 PM

TNS mentioned a supply depot. Considering the TOS cylon war had gone on for 1,000 years, once would assume a well organized supply system. IN fact, I think I recall cloaked fuel depots being mentioned in the novel. Given Adama's obvious position (member of the quarum), and the Galactica's position of importance, combined with Cains own, it has to have been there. I think we just didn't see it as it was 'background'. An expansion of TLL might have ended with Cain heading out to visit those lost outposts rather than the mystery we were left with.

Eric Paddon September 26th, 2005 11:33 PM

It's kind of funny, but on the matter of a battlestar's need for fuel, I always felt it was implausible that an advanced civilization wouldn't have tried to develop propulsion systems whereby normal fuel sources wouldn't be needed. Kind of like modifying the principle of having a self-generating set of engines run by nuclear power or some other reactor driven system. After all, we have atomic submarines and atomic powered aircraft carriers that can do that sort of thing, so why not more advanced battlestars?

I therefore theorized that the Galactica was a newer type battlestar that had such engines and thus didn't need fuel to power herself but that traditional fuel sources were needed for the other ships in the Fleet. The Pegasus though, would have been an older battlestar that didn't have such engines and needed conventional fuel and thus would be more inclined to look for fuel depots to raid etc. to stay in business so far from home as she did.

Cain incidentally does refer to Gomorrah (I spell it that way only because I like paralleling it to the Biblical city) as a "remote supply base" before he discovered that the Cylons had exterminated the Delphians and turned it into their outer capital.

Senmut September 27th, 2005 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon

#1-The opening patrol scene where Sheba and Bojay end up opening fire on Apollo and Starbuck. First question to ask is, why didn't Our Heroes (an old term for Apollo and Starbuck that I remember fondly from old discussion days years ago) realize these were vipers right away? Some new dialogue to show that they were both caught so flat-footed and found themselves trying to escape quickly, they had no reaction time to do a rear scan check for ID which would have shown the attacking ships to be vipers like theirs.

Since the Pegasus was operating in a Cylon-controlled sector, stealth would be of great importance. Deactivating each Viper's transponder ID would make sense, since it would deprive the Cylons of something to home in on. Hence, when Sheba and Bojay intercept S&A, they are "rigged for silent running" as it were. If Our Heroes were transmitting anything, the attacking Vipers wouldn't pick it up, since they wouldn't expect the scanner blips to be anything but Cylons, and wouldn't have their receivers on. Only upon getting closer does Sheba notice something amiss.

Senmut September 27th, 2005 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Paddon
It's kind of funny, but on the matter of a battlestar's need for fuel, I always felt it was implausible that an advanced civilization wouldn't have tried to develop propulsion systems whereby normal fuel sources wouldn't be needed. Kind of like modifying the principle of having a self-generating set of engines run by nuclear power or some other reactor driven system. After all, we have atomic submarines and atomic powered aircraft carriers that can do that sort of thing, so why not more advanced battlestars?

I therefore theorized that the Galactica was a newer type battlestar that had such engines and thus didn't need fuel to power herself but that traditional fuel sources were needed for the other ships in the Fleet. The Pegasus though, would have been an older battlestar that didn't have such engines and needed conventional fuel and thus would be more inclined to look for fuel depots to raid etc. to stay in business so far from home as she did.

Cain incidentally does refer to Gomorrah (I spell it that way only because I like paralleling it to the Biblical city) as a "remote supply base" before he discovered that the Cylons had exterminated the Delphians and turned it into their outer capital.





Well, until we know the precise nature of "tylium", we just have to go with the flow. If we accept that it can blow up a whole planet, it must obviously pack alot of energy into a comparitively small space. Perhaps, once refined, it is usable in some way not dissimilar to uranium or plutonium, in controlled fission?

Eric Paddon September 30th, 2005 04:10 PM

Hmm, tylium as a counterpart to uranium fueling a self-generating reactor engine is something I never considered but now that I think of it, would have been a better way to go. That could allow for the differentiation between "Tylium" (equivalent to uranium) versus "Solium" (equivalent to conventional diesel fuel).

Eric Paddon October 3rd, 2005 11:48 PM

Here's one change I wanted to make. In the raid by Starbuck and Boomer where they set charges to the command center, Apollo and the rest run into them and he asks, "Did you find the command center?" Starbuck says yes, Apollo asks where, and Starbuck points back and shouts, "THERE!" and then the command center explodes.

It would have been better I think if you'd had the explosion after Apollo asks the question, and then Starbuck could just grin sheepishly and point back, "There." with a chuckle. Would have made for a great Starbuck moment!

Senmut October 4th, 2005 06:23 PM

Sad the film editor for that one didn't think of it, EP. You're right. It would have been a totally Starbuckian moment.

Eric Paddon October 4th, 2005 08:35 PM

It would have been the director's lack of imagination on that point. Ben Casey needed to do a touch-up job on that scene! :) (For the benefit of those who don't get the joke, Vince Edwards the director of LL, was the star of the "Ben Casey" TV show in the early 60s).

sharpe26 August 18th, 2006 01:38 PM

I wonder about one thing. There's a slight mention of somesort of code Cain was unable to break. It 's big what if but, what if somehow the galacticas codebreakers manage to break the code?


Some interesting repercussions I feel.

Senmut September 30th, 2006 08:36 PM

Well, from what little info we have, it must be a newer code. In TLP, Athena checks all known Cylon codes, which apparently Colonial crypto has cracked. Since Cain has been out of the loop for two yahrens, he has not been privy to Fleet Intel updates, and so has not got the cypher key to the latest Cylon code which refers to the Colonial Fleet. Presumably the Galactica had her mainframe updated during her last layover before the Holocaust. We can assume that the Pegasus' systems got an update from the Galactica's.

Eric Paddon September 30th, 2006 08:52 PM

There certainly has to be some undeciphered aspects of Cylon code from the Galactica's standpoint since one must assume logically that if all of the Cylon code was known, the Cylons couldn't have carried out a sneak attack in the first place.


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