05: Gun On Ice Planet Zero

[Eric Paddon]

This thread will be for discussion on changes etc. on adapting episode #5 "Gun On Ice Planet Zero" and conforming the story to a continuous season arc storyline.

[Senmut]

I wondered if the pulsar gun was located at one of the planet's poles, since it seens to be able to target the Glactica regardless of where the planet is in it's daily rotation. Surely if it was closer to the equator, the Cylons would have to wait for Arcta to rotate into the proper position, and the Fleet could have sped by in the interim.

[Eric Paddon]

I find this story to be somewhat more problematic, which is why it too remains undone in my general adaptations series. It's not just the natural problems that arise from the fact that here we have the second episode shot, but ultimately taking place in airdate order much later on, but also it's the technical aspects of it that can breeze by rather quickly when watching it, but which stick out more when one sits down to try and analyze it.

It would be easy to explain why Cassiopeia doesn't go along on the mission as the med-tech (the real life reason being Laurette hadn't been retained yet in the series for that role when it was shot). Just add a scene where it's pointed out that she has no training for arctic conditions which necessitates someone of advanced background as Leda is (and perhaps one could even envision Starbuck doing some additional fiddling with the computer to keep her from going if she happened to be assigned!).

Explaining why the Galactica is locked into going in that particular direction, and why the baseships coming up from behind just don't move in and destroy the Galactica in ship to ship engagement even after the Pulsar is destroyed remain the big stumbling blocks from my standpoint. Not to mention how does one plausibly and logically construct the manner in which Boxey and Muffit are able to sneak in and stow away aboard the snow ram inside the shuttle in the first place? Can we logically envision a child and his daggit getting past a guarded launch bay area to make their way in?

The simplest answer would be to just jettison Boxey's stowing away altogether as an annoying intrusion but in my case I don't have that luxury since I've already written too many of the episodes after GOIPZ that refer back to his stowing away so I'm always open to some logical suggestions on that one!

[Pegasus4]

well if you cut Boxey and the daggit out completely then you'll have to change how the clones find the landram and rescue everyone. It was the robot dog that brought that hunting party back. Good question on how he got into the shuttle and wasn't hurt during the attack and crash landing. He didn't look strapped in.

Cassie might be qualified for arctic condition but I doubt she's as experienced as Leda.

[Eric Paddon]

You're right about Muffit's role in that. I think potentially an explanation for why Boxey stowed away was because (1) Muffit was brought along specifically because of his scientific value, which after all was established by Wilker in Saga and (2) Boxey, concerned for the safety of his pet, then sneaks aboard under circumstances that I still have to figure out before I write this.

[Pegasus4]

Just please don't have the scene from the novel The Cylon Death Machine where Boxey leading the clone's children away stows away aboard a Cylon (remote controlled) fighter and Apollo and Croft have to board it in midair to rescue him. I thought that part was pretty bad.

[SpyOne]

As for the "Guarded Launch Bay", security on the Galactica always looked a little lax.
I guess that comes from having an enemy that can be clearly identified across a field on a dark night. "Are they covered in chrome?" :)

Yes, the "stowaways" are cheesy, but it wouldn't be Galactica without some cheese.

[BS Cerberus]

An easy answer is to have him stow away in some other area, then have the module loaded onto the ram with him in it.

[Senmut]

The kids in "instructional period" were getting a tour of the bays, and Boxey sort of...stayed behind.

[Eric Paddon]

Would Muffit have been tagging along though during an instructional period? Or maybe under that scenario, Muffit was already being taken by Apollo for his scientific purpose (which we did see demonstrated in Magnificent Warriors), and that was the kicker to get Boxey to tag along?

Edit: Obviously I need to read the old nine month old posts I make first! This latter point was already addressed.

[Senmut]

Good idea, EP. You can make it work.

[spcglider]

My I interject?

I had always thought the whole "gun emplacement" thing was a bit wonky too. Even if the gun was placed at the planets' pole, it could still potentially be avoided if the planet had any sort of "wobble" like our own Earth.

How about this: The "emplacement" on the mountain is only the generator for the beam. Otherwise the planet is basically swimming in armoured focusing satellites that can redirect the beam at any angle. I mean THOUSANDS upon thousands. The Galactica can't blow them all up at once, and if they tried, the planetary forces could redirect the beam with the remainder and destroy the Galactica. So it is decided that a "stealth" team infiltrate and blow up the main body of the device... cutting it off at the source in one definitive action?

Does that make sense? I think it allows for the three-dimensional space tactics and still addresses the need to send in a demolition force. It maintains the basic story, but handles the whole scientific end of things.

How did they get all those satellites? The clones built them! Why else would Ravashol need such a large, completely subservient work force?

-Gordon

[Senmut]

Remember that the Cylons don't know about all Ravishol's clones. And no doubt the planet had minerals or other resources the Cylons want, thus a large work force to mine/process it.

[Senmut]

Come to think of it, does Arcta even rotate? Some planets don't, or do so very very slowly.

[spcglider]

Come to think of it, does Arcta even rotate? Some planets don't, or do so very very slowly.


Hmm.... doesn't planetary rotation have something to do with weather and gravity?

-Gordon

[Senmut]

Hmm.... doesn't planetary rotation have something to do with weather and gravity?

-Gordon

Gravity would be what it is, regardless of rotation. Weather, yes, but it would also depend considerably upon the planet's distance from it's sun.

[spcglider]

True. It also has a little to do with whether or not the planet is liquid or solid core, yes? Of course, we don't even REALLY know if Earth has a liquid or solid core and so don't know precisely if there is any sort of standard for planet guts in general.

But as has been shown time and again, if you try to apply too much real science to Galactica, you either end up re-writing the script OR re-writing the laws of physics! :)

-Gordon

[Eric Paddon]

Of course rewriting the laws of science in many disciplines, I think too often is a prerequisite of so much good science fiction. Where would Star Trek be without what is a real scientific improbability of faster than light speed? And of course Space 1999 would be undone by its very initial premise!

[Senmut]

Well, very few of the story lines in BSG required much in the way of close attention to the laws of physics. It just wasn't germaine to most scripts. That being said, our understanding of what the laws of physics truly are has been revolutionized in the last 100 years, giving us everything from flourescent lights to ion engines for spacecraft. In a few more centuries, or however long it would take to get to the level of the Colonies, what would our "laws" of physics today look like? The astronomy of Tycho, compared to modern astrophysics. It all changes.

[Eric Paddon]

My I interject?

I had always thought the whole "gun emplacement" thing was a bit wonky too. Even if the gun was placed at the planets' pole, it could still potentially be avoided if the planet had any sort of "wobble" like our own Earth.

How about this: The "emplacement" on the mountain is only the generator for the beam. Otherwise the planet is basically swimming in armoured focusing satellites that can redirect the beam at any angle. I mean THOUSANDS upon thousands. The Galactica can't blow them all up at once, and if they tried, the planetary forces could redirect the beam with the remainder and destroy the Galactica. So it is decided that a "stealth" team infiltrate and blow up the main body of the device... cutting it off at the source in one definitive action?

Does that make sense? I think it allows for the three-dimensional space tactics and still addresses the need to send in a demolition force. It maintains the basic story, but handles the whole scientific end of things.

How did they get all those satellites? The clones built them! Why else would Ravashol need such a large, completely subservient work force?

-Gordon



Long time looking back at this, but since I'm musing about the possibility of starting up the GOIPZ adaptation in the not too distant future, I think this is an interesting idea to take care of a couple of the potential "scientific" problems of the episode. I'll see how it pans out, but certainly de-emphasizing the thing as the "main body" would work insomuch as that it wouldn't be too dissimilar from what Apollo and Starbuck do in HOG inside the baseship in terms of what their ultimate objective is.

[Eric Paddon]

And some other points in an adaptation that will need elaborating on is just where did Dr. Ravashol come from, and what was his connection if anything to Colonial Civilization before he found himself on Arcta? In the past, I had sort of envisioned him as someone from the Colonies who fell out of favor in the scientific community because of objections to his concepts in cloning (perhaps for reasons not dissimilar from what we see in the whole cloning debate today) and thus, he just took all his research and escaped to someplace where he could do his experiments in peace.

Another point that has to be settled is, just what does Ravashol mean when he says at episode's end that he hadn't told the Cylons everything about the technologies he's created, which is supposed to be the convenient plot device of explaining how he can keep his people safe after the Galactica leaves, but at the same time it raises the question of this. If Ravashol has technology that can drive back the Cylons, what is it, and why doesn't Adama ask him for the formula in how to duplicate that technology so the Galactica can have better weaponry with which to fight back against the Cylons? Or perhaps Ravashol *did* give them such blueprints, and it had yet to be developed by the time of HOG?

[Damocles]

I find this story to be somewhat more problematic, which is why it too remains undone in my general adaptations series. It's not just the natural problems that arise from the fact that here we have the second episode shot, but ultimately taking place in airdate order much later on, but also it's the technical aspects of it that can breeze by rather quickly when watching it, but which stick out more when one sits down to try and analyze it.

This is the one GL episode, that always caused me to grit my teeth on purely technical grounds.


It would be easy to explain why Cassiopeia doesn't go along on the mission as the med-tech (the real life reason being Laurette hadn't been retained yet in the series for that role when it was shot). Just add a scene where it's pointed out that she has no training for arctic conditions which necessitates someone of advanced background as Leda is (and perhaps one could even envision Starbuck doing some additional fiddling with the computer to keep her from going if she happened to be assigned!).


If it was a GOIPZ treatment; I concur. If you are trying to clean up the technical faults in the writing, and the plot in general; you sidestep the issue by changing the character and expertise needed, completely.


Explaining why the Galactica is locked into going in that particular direction, and why the baseships coming up from behind just don't move in and destroy the Galactica in ship to ship engagement even after the Pulsar is destroyed remain the big stumbling blocks from my standpoint.


1. Make it a fuel, or supply crisis that compels an approach to the planet.
2, Change the nature of the gun, so that it will cover all aspects of a close approach to the planet. Orbitting satellite particle beam cannon defense grid?
3. Understand that space is a huge place in which you can hide, and that radio, even if it is a wormhole edge effect radio, takes TIME to whistle up help. Those base-stars can be hunting, and Baltar may know the RT fleet is in the area. Consider how VAST an area 1E10^3LH^3(10,000 cubic lighthours) is. The RT fleet could be in our own solar system and WE wouldn't see it in that volume of space, if they kept their power consumption, and heat radiation low.

Not to mention how does one plausibly and logically construct the manner in which Boxey and Muffit are able to sneak in and stow away aboard the snow ram inside the shuttle in the first place?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE0DE153EF93AA15754C0A96E948260

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Can we logically envision a child and his daggit getting past a guarded launch bay area to make their way in?

Yes. You can write a sneak through in the SnowRam's palleted logistic load-out(Hide under the tarp. Lame; but what do you want on a moment's notice?).


The simplest answer would be to just jettison Boxey's stowing away altogether as an annoying intrusion but in my case I don't have that luxury since I've already written too many of the episodes after GOIPZ that refer back to his stowing away so I'm always open to some logical suggestions on that one!

Jettison? Agreed.

Actually;

http://forums.colonialfleets.com/showthread.php?t=12689

is a treatment that addresses all of the above issues.

As always; :salute:

[Damocles]

Hmm.... doesn't planetary rotation have something to do with weather and gravity?

-Gordon

No. Imparted angular momentum(kinetics) when the mass accretes(particle collisions) out of a nebula to form the star and its planets.

=spcgliderTrue. It also has a little to do with whether or not the planet is liquid or solid core, yes?

In regards to a discrete rotating mass the only factors that retard the rotation are those processes that turn potential energy into transfer energy, Gravitational drag, frictional drag inside the mass, Mass redistribution inside the gravitational influence, heat transfer-at least a dozen things that I could name(collisions?) that could affect angular momentum.


Of course, we don't even REALLY know if Earth has a liquid or solid core and so don't know precisely if there is any sort of standard for planet guts in general.


Solid; as in a metal that perfectly reflects sound waves. NO REFRACTION AT ALL.


But as has been shown time and again, if you try to apply too much real science to Galactica, you either end up re-writing the script OR re-writing the laws of physics!

-Gordon


True; but not as much as you have to do in Star Wars(After Lucas screwed it up.) or Star Wreck.(after Berman trashed it.)

As always; :salute:

[Damocles]

Well, very few of the story lines in BSG required much in the way of close attention to the laws of physics. It just wasn't germaine to most scripts. That being said, our understanding of what the laws of physics truly are has been revolutionized in the last 100 years, giving us everything from flourescent lights to ion engines for spacecraft. In a few more centuries, or however long it would take to get to the level of the Colonies, what would our "laws" of physics today look like? The astronomy of Tycho, compared to modern astrophysics. It all changes.

No way to be sure, exactly, but the Greeks knew that gravity was a tractor.They just didn't have tha mathematics(calculus) to describe it. Newton had to invent the calculus before he took his crack at it, and he got it mostly wrong.

We still don't have the mathematics of integration to handle the three body tractor problem; as anything, but Newtonian(recently Einsteinian) approximation. Solve that? Solve gravity.

After that, I can tell you that engineers will solve the basic problems that they solved in the age of steam, the same way today. Solutions for a conservative bunch tend to be very stable in application. Scientists are cautious and conservative. Engineers are scientists. They will make a wheel the same old way. It will go round and round an axle.

As always; :salute:

[Eric Paddon]

Thanks for the suggestions, Damocles! I'm still not ready to take the plunge on this (just wrapped up "Baltar's Escape" and will probably do EIT next) but all these suggestions in this thread is giving me some helpful pointers on how to address the trickiest aspects of this episode.

[Senmut]

And some other points in an adaptation that will need elaborating on is just where did Dr. Ravashol come from, and what was his connection if anything to Colonial Civilization before he found himself on Arcta? In the past, I had sort of envisioned him as someone from the Colonies who fell out of favor in the scientific community because of objections to his concepts in cloning (perhaps for reasons not dissimilar from what we see in the whole cloning debate today) and thus, he just took all his research and escaped to someplace where he could do his experiments in peace.

Another point that has to be settled is, just what does Ravashol mean when he says at episode's end that he hadn't told the Cylons everything about the technologies he's created, which is supposed to be the convenient plot device of explaining how he can keep his people safe after the Galactica leaves, but at the same time it raises the question of this. If Ravashol has technology that can drive back the Cylons, what is it, and why doesn't Adama ask him for the formula in how to duplicate that technology so the Galactica can have better weaponry with which to fight back against the Cylons? Or perhaps Ravashol *did* give them such blueprints, and it had yet to be developed by the time of HOG?


My take was that Ravishol probably had developed some sort of deflection system, which if used against them, could repel the Cylons from Arcta. While Adama might appreciate the blueprints, something like that would probably requires hideous amounts of power to be effective. The Pulsar canon was likely powered, at least in part, by geothermal energy from the planet itself. Even a Battlestar would not be able to crank out that kind of power.
No doubt he had other interesting doohickeys up his sleeve, but that's what FanFic is for.

[Athene]

Well, two years later I still don't feel up to adapting this episode for these technical reasons. But that last point is a good one of how other ideas of Ravashol's for keeping the Cylons at bay in the future, may not be practical ones for a Fleet on the move to put into effect for their own purpsoes, if you have Adama asking about them.

Interesting.
I don't think that I would make any changes to this episode. :)

[Senmut]

Why precisely not?