BG-10: War Of The Gods [Archive]

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Flamingo Girl

May 10th, 2003, 04:42 PM

Several Viper patrols disappear, including one with Bojay and Jolly, while ghostly lights harass the Colonial fleet. And on a barren world, Apollo, Starbuck and Sheba encounter the mysterious Count Iblis, the lone survivor of a large spaceship crash. Iblis promises salvation for the fleet -- at an extreme price. Meanwhile, Sheba finds herself romantically drawn to Iblis, while Apollo, Adama, Tigh and Starbuck see Iblis as a growing threat -- and one which the desperate fleet is willing to embrace. Count Iblis's influence over the entire Colonial fleet--and particularly Sheba--grows as he works miracles, including the delivery of the traitor Baltar to the Council of the Twelve. Adama, Tigh, Apollo and Starbuck seek to uncover the truth about Count Iblis. And the Ships of Light/Beings of Light are revealed -- and coordinates to Earth are given to Sheba, Starbuck and Apollo.
(Note: This is the first appearance of the Triad game.)

Series stars; Richard Hatch as Apollo, Dirk Benedict as Starbuck, Herb Jefferson Jr. as Boomer, Lorne Greene as Adama, Terry Carter as Colonel Tigh, Maren Jensen as Athena, Tony Swartz as Jolly, Laurette Spang as Cassiopia, Noah Hathaway as Boxey, Sarah Rush as Rigel, David Greenan as Omega, Anne Lockhart as Sheba, Jack Stauffer as Bojay, Ed Begley, Jr. as Greenbean, and John Colicos as Baltar.

Guest starring Patrick Macnee as Count Iblis, John Williams as a Statesman, Janet Louise Johnson as Brie, and Olan Soulé as Carmichael.

(Thanks to Michael Faries Battlestar Galactica.com (http://www.battlestargalactica.com/about/index.html ))

Shatter

July 8th, 2003, 12:11 PM

I have a question about this particular episode that I'm hoping that one of you knowledgable folks can answer. Not long ago I learned about the cut footage from part II where Sheba, Starbuck, and Apollo discover cloven feet amongst the ruins of Iblis' ship. Does anyone know any more details about this abandoned footage, such as the reason why it was dropped and the possible meanings of the discovery intended by the writers? The symbolism of TOS fascinates me, particularly the religious symbols. I'm aware that Larson incorporated several Biblical symbols into the series, especially from Genesis. Anyway, I was hoping someone could shed a little light on this to satisfy my curiosity.

kingfish

July 8th, 2003, 01:13 PM

It was dropped because ABC felt that it was too harsh. Actually it was a goat carcass that was to be seen when Sheba looked into the ship. ABC felt that it represented devil worship..

Senmut

July 12th, 2003, 12:59 PM

That was the POINT!!!!! As usual, the NitWerk suits didn't understand! Iblis is the Devil, so...
They wouldn't understand good plotting if it fell on them!

kingfish

July 17th, 2003, 07:47 AM

IBLIS:

http://chrisscalf.com/images/fantasy/wog5.htm

Chris is one of the GREATEST artists.

Shatter

July 28th, 2003, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by kingfish
Chris is one of the GREATEST artists.

Agreed! That's an outstanding portrait of Iblis, as well as the other characters.

shiningstar

August 13th, 2003, 01:23 PM

Rickyrod70

October 5th, 2003, 07:08 PM

I never liked any of the Iblis episodes or those of the Lords of Light. I thought they were weak.

BST

October 5th, 2003, 07:32 PM

I respectfully disagree, rickyrod.

The conflict between the 2 groups, i.e., Good and Evil, was what the show was all about.

I have the belief that, properly handled, the interaction between the Beings of Light and Count Iblis et al and their manipulations of their respective 'underlings' - Colonials and Cylons - held the possibility of being a storyline which could span an entire series.

BST

Charybdis

October 6th, 2003, 08:01 AM

I think War of the Gods was the best of all the Galactica episodes, however, Experiment in Terra was not done well and I have always disliked that episode. They just wanted to use the beings of light again but it did not work and the whole plot was pointless...

blade45

October 13th, 2003, 02:09 PM

SO Ibly wasnt the Imperious Leader , in which both sounded just alike?
And the crashed large ship wasnt the Pegasus in which most were lead to believe?

BST

October 13th, 2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by blade45
SO Ibly wasnt the Imperious Leader , in which both sounded just alike?
And the crashed large ship wasnt the Pegasus in which most were lead to believe?

Welcome, blade45!

Iblis alluded, to Baltar, that his voice "may" have been downloaded into the Imperious Leader's programming (and for this to have happened, he -Iblis- would have to be over a thousand yahren old).

Regarding the ship, there was never a direct explanation as to whose ship it was.

BST

kingfish

October 13th, 2003, 03:28 PM

According to the novels, Iblis was a human who was exiled to the planet Cylon where he began to alter the original Cylons via DNA infusion(Iblis own). This is why the Imperious Leader has the same voice. The Cylons eventually kill Iblis but he isn't transformed into a Being of Light rather a horrific creature.

BST

October 13th, 2003, 03:38 PM

Thanks, Kingfish.

I was going by what appeared on the televised version. I hadn't taken into consideration what appeared in the novels. OOPS!

It would make a lot more sense actually having him lay the groundwork, by re-creating the Cylon society as machines, than to just appear, on the Cylon homeworld, one day out of the blue.

:)

cdlegend

October 21st, 2003, 05:40 PM

I really liked this one. I think that not showing the cloven footed alien when Sheba looked just suddenly gave us hope that the Pegasus was still out there.... somewhere... I was secretly hoping that it wasn't a colonial foot there.... releaved that it was cloven... The Pegasus story has yet to be told. But War of the Gods seemed to set her free for me...

As far as the story... The Ship of Lights was fantastic... to think about god-like superior life forms... Remember, Adama told Apollo that they would seem god like to a civilization lesser then theirs.... Makes you look at God a bit differently. I loved the entire message delivered by the "angels" on the ship. "What you are, we once were... What we are you will become." Very Morman - but very deep in a universal way. Apollo's association with STarbuck.. he being dead only in a primitive way... all of it was very well written. All of it fit well with the characters, the journey they each were experiencing... the time at which the story took place in their lives. I would not change it. Nor would I touch "Hand of God." Excellent writers... GAlactica needed more writers like these. Actually - Isac Isomov was supposed to write for Galactica had she made it to the next season. One could imagine what they were planing for the Galactica.

Legend

MMaola

October 28th, 2003, 11:10 AM

"War of the Gods" was another of the stand-out episodes of Galactica. Patrick McNee as Count Iblis was terrific! While you could sort of see where the episode was going (or maybe that's just hindsight on my part), it was still creepy fun getting there! Actually, there were some interesting twists in the storyline that both explained things about who the Galactican's people were as well as offered tantalizing hints of what future episodes might lay ahead. And the ending, with Apollo, Starbuck and Sheba reciting portions of the co-ordinates to earth, I thought was a real good touch. Even though it was a good thing and something Adama had been longing for, as a capper to everything they had just gone through with Iblis, it still struck me as somehow a little forboding or menacing... Again, a foreshadowing of future episodes we never got a chance to see, perhaps?

:warrior:

November 5th, 2003, 10:35 AM

Shatter in Jewish folklore .................the cloven feet are
the only true way to recognize a demon or the devil.

The cloven feet are especially evident in YIDDISH folklore.

It could be that particular footage was dropped because in
the 70's they thought that the finding of the feet was simply
too violent.

They also appear in "Greek Mythology" creatures called Satyrs had cloven hooves. As did Centaurs (half man /half horse)

As do many other mythological creatures scattered through many biblical and myth related stories.

As for it being violent? No it was cut due to the executives thinking it would be a clear sign of demonic/ Satanic references for the audience to handle. according to the script, after we are suppose to see the foot the frame pans up to reveal the form of a man covered in a hairy body. there was also suppose to be a "tail" out near the creatures hoof?

I take it the props were made, but then the footage was cut on orders by the studio. I personally think ABC got jumpy about the thing anyways. today TV would have made the footage seem tame by comparison.

Although as i've said, there was an episode of "Space 1999" that would have made the cloven hooves scene seem weak, the episode inwhich they discovered a dead pilot in one of their Eagle Shuttles?

Burned to the skeleton no less!!! - :eek:

KJ

Doctor Salik

November 9th, 2003, 07:14 AM

According to Gene Roddenberry the character of Spock was modeled after the image of the devil. The network did not like that and if they had it their way the character would have disappeared from the show.

dru

November 18th, 2003, 04:10 AM

I always loved this two parter but after rewatching it last night I have a few issues with it. I don't see any point to Sheba saying Earth has one sun and among nine planets in light of The Long Patrol and Starbuck's correcting Boxey's map of Earth's system as taught to him by Adama.

I liked how Sheba is used. This was the intro of Triad. Sheba left her Viper back at the crash site when Apollo is "killed" saving her from Iblis. The lights fly around for no apparent reason. Why does Iblis seem to need to go with the Warriors to their fleet if he can travel from Galactica to the crash site seemingly without assistance? Why is he worried about Colonial tech but alter appears unaffected? Does it have something to do with him drawing sustanence and power from Sheba's devotion and later that of so much of the fleet? With the deaths on his 'ship' perhaps he was in a very weakened state.

I took the conversation with Baltar to mean Iblis was the original of the IL-series Imperious Leader's voice and thus a 1,000 or more yahren old. Iblis was being coy but not denying Baltar's charge. If we accept the Cylon machines turned against their reptilian progenetors then Iblis was probably behind the machine's revolt. Somehow he undermined the organic Cylons perhaps by becoming their "final" leader before the revolt. Perhaps even he planted the creation of the mechanical Cylons in the minds of the organic Cylon leadership. Definitely something to explore, but clearly Iblis feeds of the loyalty and devotion of his fallen flock. I believe the robotic Cylons were the undoing of their reptilian creators not unlike the ultimately fatal destiny of the cloven victims at the crash site whereupon Iblis was encountered.

I don't know why so many thought the ship was the Pegasus. Apollo said the ship seemed to be perhaps the size of a Battlestar but Iblis clearly told Sheba she would meet her father again. Knowing about the cloven hoves, it wasn't the Pegasus.

"According to the novels, Iblis was a human who was exiled to the planet Cylon where he began to alter the original Cylons via DNA infusion(Iblis own). This is why the Imperious Leader has the same voice. The Cylons eventually kill Iblis but he isn't transformed into a Being of Light rather a horrific creature."

If that's Hatch's explanation I'm glad I didn't ready any of his novels. That is ridiculous!

November 18th, 2003, 08:53 PM

Sheba actually didn't leave her viper behind if you take into account the telemovies where the shuttle lands on the Galactica and Apollo, Starbuck and Sheba find out from Tigh and Boomer that all the missing pilots were found on the "Red Planet" where Count Iblis was found.

In doing so, i guess they found Sheba's Viper also! (with limited fleet resources, they wouldn't leave a fighter ship like a Viper behind would they?)

As for the wrecked ship being the Pegasus?

No it wasn't, but i'm glad the episode had the "red herring" clues and lines of dialogue which led to so many interpretations of what the wreckage was. No wonder people thought "THAT" it was the Pegasus at the time.

"War of the Gods" does have, so many levels to it, as a 2 parter episode. Which adds to it every time.

KJ

dru

November 20th, 2003, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by Lord Kingjason
Sheba actually didn't leave her viper behind if you take into account the telemovies where the shuttle lands on the Galactica and Apollo, Starbuck and Sheba find out from Tigh and Boomer that all the missing pilots were found on the "Red Planet" where Count Iblis was found.

In doing so, i guess they found Sheba's Viper also! (with limited fleet resources, they wouldn't leave a fighter ship like a Viper behind would they?)
KJ

It just occurred to me that perhaps her Viper was stowed aboard the Galactica Shuttle. The shuttles appear to be quite large. Otherwise, I imagine there would've been a piece of dialog about finding Sheba's Viper abandoned down on the planet.

According to http://ravensbranch.allen.com/galacticasize.html, the BSG Scrapbook suggests the shuttle would be about 110 feet long (the set was only 33 ft). Although not entirely proportional to the scale model, the full-sized Viper mock-up was only 28.5 feet, less than one third the length of the shuttle craft. That suggests there might be enough cargo capacity in a Colonial shuttle to store Sheba's Viper on the return trip to Galactica from the crash-site planet. Helicopters are known to be transported inside cargo planes, for example. Why not have a shuttle available to transport a Viper?

Don't ask me to explain how they got the Viper on board, perhaps there's an enormous cargo door on the virtually unseen starboard side of a shuttle craft.

I'm just saying this fits the "facts" at least as well as anything. Perhaps more. I can't see Starbuck and Sheba just leaving her Viper behind while they flew Apollo's lifeless body back to the fleet.

Edit: I did a scaled graphic from some line drawings of the Viper and Shuttle I found online. There's *plenty* of room for a Viper to be stored inside the Shuttle. I don't have anywhere to link to the image, unfortunately.

Muffit

November 22nd, 2003, 11:18 PM

I really love this ep. A new mysterious "enemy", and you're not sure which it is, the lights or Iblis! MacNee is outstanding. Tons of possible plot developments could have come from this ep. I'm thinking this may beat Living Legend for me as best ep - but it's so hard to choose! I dearly love them all!

Hey all! I was so anxious to see the deleted scenes of this and see the cloven hoof bit. NOT THERE! What gives? When was this shown so everybody knows about it (except me)? I was SO waiting to see that bit of deleted footage. No fair! Tell me, tell me friends how everybody else saw that footage and not me since its not on the DVD...

:muffit:

Flamingo Girl

November 23rd, 2003, 06:26 PM

But why does God need a spaceship?

Muffit

November 23rd, 2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Flamingo Girl
But why does God need a spaceship?

LOL! Welcome to Voorta Vor! :)
:muffit:

Domiano

December 16th, 2003, 09:33 AM

I was going to ask several questions but most were answered in the posts before mine.

Ibilis needed souls to feed off of, that's why he was weak at the crash site.

Apollo made a remark that the crash site was the size of a battlestar and near the end Apollo and Starbuck would not let Sheba look in the wreckage. Then when they decide to let her Count Iblis stops her. My question to all of you is: If it was cloven feet in the first place why would Starbuck and Apollo let her see them? Parts of the wreckage looked like a Colonial ship. Someone asked why would the Count tell Sheba she was going to see her Father again if he knew he was dead. Simple answer there, he did not specify how she was going to see him again.

Also there was an interesting comment ,"Why did Gods need a ship?" Count Iblis needed people of their own freewill invite and accept him. Apollo did not and that is one of the reason the "angels" gave Apollo back his life.

shiningstar

January 5th, 2004, 04:50 PM

I really, really liked this episode. I think Patrick McNee
was BRILLIANT in his portrayal of Iblis.

January 6th, 2004, 09:22 PM

Domiano that part about Iblis feeding off souls is the most interesting thing said from a Galactica fan in a long time?

Godlike being in sci-fi have all been cheapen somewhat by Star Trek's finger snapping ones. That "soul-eater" type idea is another intrepretation of the Count's powers that relates to his demonic abilities fans may or maynot have picked up on from time to time.

As for the wreakage it was one of a few things Galactica fans have interpreted themselves over the years.

In fan fiction some have said it belonged to the 'Delphians' of Gamoray from the episode "Living Legend". others may have said it belonged to "Satyr like" creatures, that became demons through the Count's evil. That may have appeared in the second season of Battlestar Galactica?

Or just mere aliens that came upon the Count and he subjugated them.

Whatever happened it didn't last long. As the 'Ships of light' battled them and destroyed the ship! Even when the episode of 'War Of The Gods' begins, the Galactica picks up a huge distubance which leads to them launching 3 Vipers to find the missing "Silver Spar squadron patrol" which they believe was caught up in the massive explosion they had just picked up!

As for the "Let Sheba see inside the crashed ship" part? It was to break her free from Count Iblis spell. I take it, they knew his true appearence would break, the hold he had on Sheba. Even if they lived in a universe where the Colonial Warriors see plenty of ugly aliens on and off.

Good theories you got there though.

later

KJ

shiningstar

January 11th, 2004, 06:58 PM

Good points Domiano.

Starwarrior

January 11th, 2004, 10:13 PM

Hey all! I was so anxious to see the deleted scenes of this and see the cloven hoof bit. NOT THERE! What gives? When was this shown so everybody knows about it (except me)? I was SO waiting to see that bit of deleted footage. No fair! Tell me, tell me friends how everybody else saw that footage and not me since its not on the DVD...

I am also wondering why this footage isn't included with the dvd release.I just watched this episode and then all the deleted scenes but there was nothing about cloven hoves or even footprints.Is Universal still concerned about devil worship?

shiningstar

January 13th, 2004, 07:41 PM

I was shocked that the footage wasn't there.
and I do have the dvds

BST

January 21st, 2004, 06:15 AM

"Today's Date in 'Galactica' History:"

January 21, 1979 - Part 2 of War of the Gods aired.

:)

bsg1fan1975

January 21st, 2004, 09:02 AM

I wondered about that myself. After all they did do the shot where Iblis's true form was revealed, why not show the footage. I think it may have had something to do with the costumes not coming out the way they wanted it to look.

shiningstar

January 22nd, 2004, 04:59 PM

I agree Bsg1fan1975. I think that the footage should have
been included.

January 25th, 2004, 12:03 PM

Also the fact, said footage may no longer exist!

One of the reasons it maynot have reached the DVD release 25 years later. several other scenes shot for episodes, that were heard of didn't make the DVD deleted scenes section either.

KJ

WARDAGGIT73

February 14th, 2004, 10:28 AM

****

For the the best BG epipsodes, theogically, thematically and emotioanlly interesting and it's one of the best visually to boot...

shiningstar

March 2nd, 2004, 05:33 PM

I think since the censors were concerned about satan worship and
Iblis essentially represented the devil ..........I think that's why
they didn't show the cloven hoofs. I also believe that as someone
just said .............the 'said' footage may no longer exist.

Antelope

March 4th, 2004, 03:14 PM

I loved this episode. I never even thought about the possibility the crashed ship was the Pegasus. That stuff blew right past me at the time. I don't understand how Iblis could say that Sheba would see her father again unless he was lying. Since he was the devil I assume he lied. It was his plan to take her soul, in which case she would never see Commander Caine unless he was already dead and in hell. I don't understand why the network would have issues with the cloven feet since when Apollo shoots Iblis it is obvious Iblis is the devil. In addition Apollo openly states to Iblis that he knows Iblis is the devil.

Hatch's take on Iblis is straight out of left field. As the devil, Iblis could have appeared as a reptilian cylon and deceived their society thereby leading to its destruction. That's pretty much what he was doing with the Galactica before his plans were thwarted.

shiningstar

March 4th, 2004, 03:18 PM

What I like is the way Apollo said "You have NO dominion over me"
that line to Iblis was priceless in my book :thumbsup:

launchcruiser7

March 21st, 2004, 11:38 AM

idont think that terra was the earth the beings of light sent them to 19 million sectars away sounds like a long way to travel sheba never looked better then in those white pants as i said in hand of god thanks to dvd im sure that terra is a copy of earth like in star trek meri the beings of light needed apollo to take the place of charile watts so they know where terra was and that it was not earth john told apollo that this was not the end of your journey but you must have faith i have faith in all of you in god<YWHA> in america and that the real last battlestar will fly again PS if the ship galactica was 6000 feet long it would take more than one expolding raider to destory it like the alantia was maybe the sheilds were shut off for the confornce have to have some kind of sheilds on those open landing bays in the books starbuck liked to stand close to the front and look out cant remember which novel lone of the best of the two parters he said he whould be back THIS IS LAUNCHCRUISERHAWKEYE TO UNKNOWN VIPERS WHERE DID YOU COME FROM have a cool one on me and launch when ready fleet outer marker delta we got your back :salute: :warrior: :cylon: :cylon: :cylon: :milk: :wings: mayhem out here :cool: :)

Bombadil

April 2nd, 2004, 08:30 PM

Interesting thing about this episode was that it was so theological and faith-based. Of course, that was true of the entire series. The references to God, good, and evil were fundamental to the show. And groundbreaking, too, since science fiction up to that point tended to be more secular and materialistic. I enjoyed the point of view.

Aeneas

April 4th, 2004, 09:51 AM

I believe that's why the
flag for the battlestar gallactica was changed as well .........
God forbid that a Six pointed STAR should represent anything
POSITIVE in BOnnie Hammer or in RON MOORE'S eyes.)

Actually, when you look at the Galactica patch, it rather closely resembles an ancient Hawaiian standard. Kinda fits in place with the whole"ancients/13th tribe"
throughout the show(Egyptian, Greco-Roman, Mayan, etc.) Plus, Glen Larson is Mormon(LDS) and much of the native population of Hawaii is also Mormon.
But I never figured the patch resembled a Star of David(thanx!)

Aeneas

April 4th, 2004, 10:50 AM

Actually I never liked this ep when I was a kid. The whole "deal with the Devil" theme(along with the special effects of Iblis true nature) used to creep me out. Being an imaginative kid going through Catholic school probably didn't help much! Even after I got into literature as I got older and started enjoying works like "Faust" , "The Devil and Tom Walker" and "The Devil and Daniel Webster" WOTG still wasn't one of my fav's. Talke about childhood scars!! Lol. Even after loving "The Devil's Advocate", "Brimstone", "Spawn", "Angel Heart", and "The Devil in Miss Jones" ;) I couldn't get into "War of the Gods"! I even got over my "Exorcist" fears and read King James' "Daemonology"before I got over WOTG! :blush: (issues, issues--smh) Maybe it was the whole idea that one demon could pull the wool over so many peoples' eyes at once.-- :devil: 'And I would've gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for that meddlin' Apollo! ':devil: :mad: :devil:

Anyway, I finally got into this ep this week(2 days ago) while going thru the DVD set(as I'm oft to do.) I started out by watching the "party scene" --#17 on WOTG's deleted scenes options.(Get this, they actually had a disco version of the "Galactica theme"-- priceless !lol.) That got me into watching the whole ep start to finish. And you know what... I LOVE IT!!! THIS IS A GREAT EPSIODE!!!
The story is well written, the setting, the whole Apollo/Iblis interplay--every thing lines up and fits in with a classic "Faust/Daniel Webster" type story.

But the best part was Sheba. She's the shining star of this ep. As the focal point of the whole story(and the Apollo/Iblis conflict), Sheba rather subtly steals the show. Anne Lockhart outdoes herself running the full range of emotions from tragic to helpless to romantic to remorseful to relieved. Now the goood part. SHE DOES ONE HELLUVA CONVINCING VAMP!!! Once Iblis get under her skin ;) she becomes a smouldering temptress. The one snippet of the "party scene" when Apollo and Starbuck find Iblis and Sheba, she's drinking from a glass of ambrosia and the way she looks at Iblis--sent me outside for a cigarette!! Then on the dance floor with Apollo! Of couse that white outfit helped. I was always a big Anne fan-always found her attractive but man she sizzles! I guess as an adult you pick up on things in your favorite movies and show that you didn't as a kid.

shiningstar

April 4th, 2004, 11:45 AM

shiningstar

April 4th, 2004, 11:46 AM

Eric Paddon

April 5th, 2004, 02:07 PM

A great episode on many levels, but for me one that rates below HOG, LL, LPOTG and Saga because of one critical plot hole, namely the unsatisfactory way in which the Cylons are disposed of as a constant shadowy presence until HOG. The mere capture of Baltar can not mean an end to pursuit since his baseship has to know where he disappeared to and can surely still track the Galactica even if it lacks the strength to mount an assault (based on the losses from LL and FIS). It seems to me that Iblis had to have done something else that caused the Cylon threat to vanish and which also would have helped him win greater plaudits from the people. But how did he do this? Not by transporting the Fleet across a vast distance because if he did that, then Apollo, Starbuck and Sheba would not have been able to return to the planet they found him on. Clearly something is missing here, and Larson would have been better advised dealing with this point then giving us the rather pointless diversion of having Iblis control Boomer so he can win at triad. Since the Cylons disappearance after WOTG sets the tone for most of the rest of the season, this is one plot point that can't be so easily dismissed IMO.

Senmut

April 6th, 2004, 02:14 AM

Senmut

April 6th, 2004, 02:21 AM

It was his plan to take her soul, in which case she would never see Commander Caine unless he was already dead and in hell. I don't understand why the network would have issues with the cloven feet since when Apollo shoots Iblis it is obvious Iblis is the devil. In addition Apollo openly states to Iblis that he knows Iblis is the devil.

That is EXCATLY what Iblis had in mind, since he ultimately intended to have them both safely ensconced in his kingdom eventually.
As to the cloven hooves, did you expect logic or consistancy from the NumbButts at the Nitwerk? Uh uh.

Eric Paddon

April 6th, 2004, 10:36 AM

Recall that the course for Earth, spilled at dinner by Apollo, Starbuck, and Sheba, comes at the end of the ep. Doubtless, Adama had the fleet change course at once. By the time Lucifer makes it to where Baltar's fighter disappeared off his scanners en route to the rendezvous, the Galactica will have come about to the new course. This could explain Adama's statements in HOG that "I thought we'd lost them for good", and that the Cylons have their BaseShips "spread out through all the star systems in order to find us". The change of course alone could explain the Cylon absence for a while.

Interesting explanation, but I still think there's too much of a time lag to allow for that. It works best though if we just accept WOTG for what it shows us.

My own rewrite of the episode would have had Lucifer mounting an attack and then Iblis makes a dramatic display of force that hurls them across the stars (something he can do since he after all is the one who created the Cylons in the first place!) and thus causes the Cylons to lose track of the Fleet and give Iblis a much greater chance at establishing himself with the people as a would-be savior.

Senmut

April 8th, 2004, 01:52 AM

OR, the Cylons losing the Fleet for a time might have been part of the penalty Iblis had to pay for breaking the rules. They are, after all, his creations, therefore an extension of his will.

JustinB

May 6th, 2004, 11:11 AM

A great good v's Evil episode. It shows how people can be easily persuaded into someone elses way of thinking. I enjoyed the conflict between Apollo and Sheba. I beleive that this was the turning point in their relationship. The Ship Of Lights were the highlight for me.

BRG

September 21st, 2004, 11:40 AM

I loved this episode. Easily the best of the series IMO. 5 out of 5!

I was stunned at how good this episode was. It is one of the finest episodes of any sci fi show I have ever seen, and in my opinion, this episode was worth the price of the DVD set alone. BRILLIANT! :)

There have been very few viewing experiances that I can remember compair to watching this episode. It was compelling from start to finish, and MacNee's performance as Iblis was magnificent, I can't remember him ever giving a better performance. You had an uneasy feeling about his character that grew throughout the whole episode. The way he seduces Sheba to his will, his confrontations with Adama, the way he deals with Baltar, and how he gets the population to follow him in such a brief period, you started to suspect who he really was. When Apollo reveals that he is the'Prince of Darkness', the hairs on the back of my neck were standing on end.

The scene on the Ship of Lights, where Apollo's body is layed out on the alter, and Starbuck & Sheba, overwhelmed and struggleing to comprehend what is going on, is one of the most beautifully played out scenes I've seen. Wonderfull acting by Benedict, Lockhart & Hatch! :thumbsup:

Now, as to the crashed ship. I must admit, when I first watched this episode I also thought it was the Pegasus. But since I have read otherwise on this page, I feel slightly cheated that we can't see the deleated scene. But in some ways, things like that actually play better if you don't see them. Let's our imagination do the work, witch just makes the whole scene more unsettleing! :duck:

But to round off, a brilliant episode! And Patrick MacNee gives us a stellar performance.
By the way, do you not think that Iblis and the 'Angels' in this episode are quite simmilar to the Vorlons and the Shadows from Babylon 5? ;)
BRG

PS- As a Superman fan, I was delighted to see Kirk Alyn , the original big screen Man of Steel from the 1940's serials 'Superman' and 'Atom Man vs Superman', had a wee guest role in this episode. He played the Old Man on the Gemini frieghter who Iblis askes to follow him. Although he was in his late 60's, you can still see classic look of Superman in his face!

Eric Paddon

October 27th, 2004, 03:52 PM

One great unanswered question in terms of Galactica production history was whether it was a mere coincidence caused by casting Patrick Macnee as Iblis that made Larson add that very important conversation with Baltar in the prison cell that IMO is the absolute lynchpin in Galactica history in terms of understand the nature of the whole Human-Cylon conflict. Whatever the circumstances, in that one scene alone Larson managed to give the series a deeper subtext than he probably first envisioned and in the process made ABC seem like inadvertant geniuses for insisting that the Cylons not be living creatures. It takes on a much more chillingly effective connotation to realize that Iblis was responsible for destroying the living race of Cylons, and that the entire conflict is not one viewed through conventional "shades of gray" thinking like the Federation battles with Klingons and Romulans are, but a case where it can only be seen through a Good-Evil and black-white lens.

Senmut

October 27th, 2004, 11:56 PM

Seeing as Iblis would have only a finite number of demons on his side, it would make sense to replace the Cylons with robots, which can be built in infinite numbers. No end to the troops to spread his mayhem and chaos through the universe.
One wonders how much of their technology the Cylons derived from their organic creators, and how much Iblis gave them outright at the time of their uprising. Did he do so with the specific goal of destroying Huamnity, or did that come later on?

Eric Paddon

October 28th, 2004, 09:13 AM

I think Iblis at the time was just interested in destroying the Cylon race, and then he could move on to humanity afterwards. "One race at a time" as it were.

If I were writing a full backstory on how Iblis did this, I would see him as someone who took the form of a living Cylon and gave them the technological breakthrough to develop the centurion robot (perhaps the old Cylon race was in a war where they needed such technology to win, or perhaps even in a civil war with each other and Iblis helped one side), knowing that inevitably the robots would destroy the living Cylons.

kingfish

October 28th, 2004, 12:41 PM

Missing scenes:

http://s4.invisionfree.com/Battlestar_Pacifica/index.php?showtopic=152&st=0

Eric Paddon

October 28th, 2004, 02:00 PM

I have seen all of the telemovie versions of the two part episodes with deleted scenes restored to the cuts, and IMO the ones for WOTG came off as the most expendable compared to the ones in LPOTG, GOIPZ and LL. The one I liked best was the scene of Apollo, Starbuck and Sheba arriving back on the Galactica before the final scene. That was the only time Boxey and Sheba were ever in the same scene (of interest to me in light of my penchant for advancing fanfic stories pushing a deeper Apollo-Sheba relationship over time).

Anyone notice in the DVD deleted scenes section how a scene from "Hand Of God" was mistakenly stuck in?

kingfish

October 28th, 2004, 02:15 PM

Eric Paddon

October 28th, 2004, 03:19 PM

I don't believe that was a coincidence by Larson. Even the opening narration done by Macnee could lead to questions. "There are those that believe that life here began out there."

I am curious as to where "Here" meant. Could it be Iblis talking about Earth or Kobol. Another thing to ponder is IL. Is it a sentient being or a robot. I believe the IL is a sentient being.

Well considering that the rest of the opening narration refers to "the forefathers of the Egyptians or the Toltecs or the Mayans" and in Saga goes further to reference the lost civilization of Atlantis, I think that doesn't need to be tied to in to Iblis and is just the device needed to set up the premise to the audience.

The Imperious Leader is a robot, since Lucifer talks in part 2 of LPOTG how the new Imperious Leader was drawn from the same class as himself, the IL series. I think what happens is that when one becomes Imperious Leader, drawn from the ranks of advanced IL type robots, the computer brain is then placed in the most advanced model of all, and then is given Iblis's voice, which is used for all Imperious Leaders out of respect for the one who made the Cylon robot race.

Senmut

October 28th, 2004, 08:08 PM

The Imperious Leader is a robot, since Lucifer talks in part 2 of LPOTG how the new Imperious Leader was drawn from the same class as himself, the IL series. I think what happens is that when one becomes Imperious Leader, drawn from the ranks of advanced IL type robots, the computer brain is then placed in the most advanced model of all, and then is given Iblis's voice, which is used for all Imperious Leaders out of respect for the one who made the Cylon robot race.

Out of respect, perhaps. My impression was that they do so because it is part of the proceedure, and it would never occur to any of them to vary from it. "No independant inititive" Cain said. Changing the voice would be outside the parameters, or so I would have thought.

justjackrandom

October 29th, 2004, 05:01 AM

Out of respect, perhaps. My impression was that they do so because it is part of the proceedure, and it would never occur to any of them to vary from it. "No independant inititive" Cain said. Changing the voice would be outside the parameters, or so I would have thought.

Perhaps Cain was simply referring to the lesser drones. We know from observation that the IL series, and even the 2-brained Vulpa, display emotion. This suggests "illogical" reasoning cabability, and thus the ability to act on that reasoning, i.e. outside of parameters.

JJR

October 29th, 2004, 10:36 AM

Hey, who kick started this thread again? ;)

A full year after the DVD hits and BG's most popular episode outside the pilot is still being talked about. Excellent!

I know there was this guy who chased up the deleted footage for the DVD boxset, and worked his ass off in getting everything together for this set. But i wonder why some were found and others were not? Not all deleted footage of TV shows survives over the course of time, but Larson's explantation of the scene being "We once had a shot of him lying in ashes"

Sounds to me like; "it's gone, lost, destroyed, etc" - :(

Hate to say it but i'm sure we would had an answer by now, if it was still about?! How many Battlestar Galactica fans when to Galacticon2003 and asked about the "Cloven Hooves"? or anything else on the 2 part episode. Actually? how many visitors to the covention last year, had their DVD's at the time and played them at the con. Sure would have been an excellent way to discuss the episode and the deleted scenes.

Some of the things listed on kingfish's "link" about "War Of The Gods" I wish where on the DVD and others i wish were i knew where they belong from, in the novelization.

The morning after the party on the Rising Star, after the alert is sounded and the pilots wearily get up, there is a scene that occurs in the launch bay. Boomer: "I'm sorry, Apollo... Starbuck. I deserve irons for this kind of behavior. I just don't know what happened last night." Apollo: "I think I do." Starbuck: "Don't bother explaining it to me right now. I'm having trouble finding my left eyelid..." Apollo: "Can you fly?" Starbuck: "We'll soon find out, won't we?"

Not long after Boomer disappears, there is a scene where Starbuck, Apollo, and Dr. Wilker are conducting an investigation on the agro ship. Farmer: "It's just like you see... bumper crops... Every tree is producing like nothing I've ever seen." Wilker: "Yes... except one... That one over there..." Farmer: "Oh, yeah... Now that is a little odd. I noticed that just a little while ago." Wilker: "What happened to it?" (The older farmer looks off as the Doctor walks up to the tree where Iblis and Sheba had conferred) Farmer: "I can't tell you... It's a mystery to me... It was as healthy as could be yesterday." Wilker: "Curious... It seems completely dead, and in so short a time." Farmer: "I'll tell you who might now. That miracle worker, Count Iblis, or whatever they call him." Apollo: "What's he got to do with it?" Farmer: "He must have seen that there was something wrong with it... He was standing right there next to it where you're standing now." (Apollo and Starbuck exhange looks) Starbuck: "Did he touch it?" Farmer: "Well, I didn't want to be nosey, him and the girl carrying on and all. But, yes... I think he did pull a leaf off... Sure enough right about there..." (Apollo and Starbuck again exchange looks) Wilker: "Well, that can't have anything to do with this bumper crop of food. I'd like to get back to my lab right away if it's all right, Captain." Apollo: "Let's go..." (If Iblis' touch was enough to kill the tree, then it provides more proof that it was the white lights that caused the crops to grow.)

After Adama gives Tigh a false explanation for Apollo taking the shuttle, Tigh addresses Athena. Tigh: "The shuttle that just launched... Has it communicated its docking instructions with one of the passenger ships?" Athena: "Passenger ships? I don't think I understand. Shuttle Alpha just headed off across the quadrant." Tigh: "Across the quadrant?" Athena: "Is something wrong?" Tigh: "No... What could be wrong..." (Tigh moves off... again a little disoriented, but not confused)

After Count Iblis storms out of Adama's quarters and Adam goes after him, Adama finds the corridor empty. He leans against the bulkhead... heavy in pain. Suddenly from around the corner, Sheba appears. She is almost running when she reaches Adama who appears to be crying. Sheba: "Adama... What is it?" Adama: "We have sold our souls to a demon." Sheba: "What are you talking about?" Adama: "Count Iblis..." Sheba: "The answer to our prayers. Our deliverer." Adama: "Tell that to my son... and Starbuck." Sheba: "Where are they?" Adama: "They have gone to prove Count Iblis for what he is." (Tigh suddenly rounds the corner and is upon them) Tigh: "Commander, are you all right?" Adama: "Did you tell the Count where Starbuck and Apollo went?" Tigh: "I didn't tell him anything about the shuttle. But he knew..." Adama: "Is he still on board?" Tigh: "So far as I know. Nothing else has launched towards the planet where we found his ship." Sheba: "So that's where they've gone? Those fools... All of you. Don't you know what you've done? We gave our word." (She turns and runs off up the corridor.) Tigh: "Sheba..." Adama: "Let her go. She's too blinded by Iblis to listen. Quickly, Tigh. We must find him." Tigh: "I don't think I understand." Adama: "That's because it's almost incomprehensible."

After the white lights appear over Iblis, he says, "There are no rules. No one has dominion over me." Sheba: "I wonder... In all the universe are there not balances... rules... and counter rules... Even for an advanced race, there must be a greater law..."

It puzzles me about the second extended argoship scene. The DVD has the first extended scene with the farmer watching Iblis and Sheba. Is the other one described, part of the novelization? I wouldn't think so, being the first part is in there. Why isn' the discovery of Iblis killing the tree on the DVD?

Same goes for the launch bay scene with Apollo wondering about Starbuck being able to fly at all?

When Starbuck and Apollo look into the wreckage of the ship, this is exactly what they see: A piece of metallic surface, highly scorched but out of which portrudes a foot-like extremity, except that its tip is clearly in the shape of a cloven hoof. (Then they lift the metal and toss it aside) They grimace in horror... Under the wreckage is the figure of a devil... a demon. (This segment was shot but the footage was edited out by the censors due to its possible satanic implications) :devil:

May no longer exist - :cry: :cry: :/: :(

Is it possible for Universal to edit in the deleted scenes into the episodes to create uncut extended versions of the original series episodes. That, an all new 'Cloven Hoof' footage could be re-created for a special edition extended cut on DVD? (DVD with a new set of extras) Universal can't argue about the sales considering how the boxset is doing, robotech and several anime benefited from longer uncut versions why not for the first time, a live action classic Sci-Fi series!

Food for thought!

As for someone stating before, about the wrecked ship being the Pegasus.

Now, as to the crashed ship. I must admit, when I first watched this episode I also thought it was the Pegasus. But since I have read otherwise on this page, I feel slightly cheated that we can't see the deleated scene. But in some ways, things like that actually play better if you don't see them. Let's our imagination do the work, witch just makes the whole scene more unsettleing!

But to round off, a brilliant episode! And Patrick MacNee gives us a stellar performance.

Man this episode was so cool on that level with it's "redherings" dropped in there about cain and the wreck ship being the same size as a Battlestar!

Rob Field's Maximum Press Battlestar Galactica comics had Count Iblis show Sheba the wrecked ship 20 years later. (To decieve her) And Sheba saw her father, mainly cos Iblis told her to see what your heart lets you know to be true? issue 4 finally showed Galactica fans what they KNEW to be true......'A Cloven Hoof' or what Apollo describes to John as The torso of a Man and the 'Hooves' of a beast!

By the way, do you not think that Iblis and the 'Angels' in this episode are quite simmilar to the Vorlons and the Shadows from Babylon 5?

Larson's says in the Sci-fi Universe magazine June 1995 That he would have used the The Lightship to explore the religious and moral underpinnings fundamental to the series. So with that, i take it we would have seen the 'John' and The Lightship reappear again and again to guide, assist or flat out bug? The colonials from time to time. And John would have been a nice counter balance to Count Iblis? His equal yet opposite. Could have been a different twist in science fiction storytelling, being most evolved superior beings are twisted up, powerhungry or like picking on the weaker mortals (see Star Trek*)

KJ

:cool:

kingfish

October 29th, 2004, 12:31 PM

Eric Paddon

October 29th, 2004, 04:00 PM

"Is it possible for Universal to edit in the deleted scenes into the episodes to create uncut extended versions of the original series episodes."

The only thing Universal could do is release the "telemovie" editions of the two part episodes that restored deleted scenes when they were syndicated as part of a TV movie package in the early 80s (the other part was messily editing two single part episodes into one with horrid results). The reason they could never go further is because only the scenes used for the telemovie versions have a proper sound mix. The raw outtakes we saw on the DVDs that were never used at any time would have to have their sound completely redone to match the footage used and that wouldn't be a cheap endeavor.

Senmut

October 29th, 2004, 10:19 PM

DAmned Nitwerk idiots!!!!

jewels

October 30th, 2004, 12:30 AM

Sounds to me like; "it's gone, lost, destroyed, etc" - :(

Hate to say it but i'm sure we would had an answer by now, if it was still about?! How many Battlestar Galactica fans when to Galacticon2003 and asked about the "Cloven Hooves"? or anything else on the 2 part episode. Actually? how many visitors to the covention last year, had their DVD's at the time and played them at the con. Sure would have been an excellent way to discuss the episode and the deleted scenes.

KJ

KJ, I don't think the "cloven hoof" footage even made it as far as the censors--I remember hearing Anne Lockhart answer a question about it and her answer was along the lines of it (the fake dead whatever it was) looked really awful, more like a sheep. That was supposedly why it wasn't used--it wasn't a believable scene cause of a badly done prop.

jewels

October 30th, 2004, 05:11 AM

Jason, the book was more graphic. After the party, Apollo finds not only are the warriors passed out but that they were having SEX. Apollo sees men and women in various stages of UNDRESS. The scene with Sheba and the Count on the agro ship is also adult. Sheba places her tongue in the Count's mouth as she is kissing him.

:wtf:

No offence kingfish, but i gotta take that with a "grain of salt". Even though i know several of the episode based novels (most in fact) added things we wouldn't have seen in a show like Galactica despite it budget. i've heard they put sex or implied sex in "Apollo War" novelization as well. The novel is expanded and different from the televised episodes. But i'm taken back by hearing the descriptions of it, is all.

The only thing Universal could do is release the "telemovie" editions of the two part episodes that restored deleted scenes when they were syndicated as part of a TV movie package in the early 80s (the other part was messily editing two single part episodes into one with horrid results). The reason they could never go further is because only the scenes used for the telemovie versions have a proper sound mix. The raw outtakes we saw on the DVDs that were never used at any time would have to have their sound completely redone to match the footage used and that wouldn't be a cheap endeavor.

Hi Eric long time no see! - :)

Yeah, sounds like we fans could set up our own Trading Post. I've got several Sci-Fi Channel adverts of the first showings of Battlestar Galactica back in November 1995. And several fans might have those rare Telemovie versions of the 2 parters like LL, LPOTG and WOTG's (although i have WOTG telemovie from the U.K. boxset)

Any rare footage we want to view. Could no longer be a problem? VHS tape or VCD/data file burned copies could keep the rare scenes intacted and preserved. knowing our luck with asking studios for offically released things, i expect a resquest of this nature would be take dozens of petitions and a tons of well thoughtout arguements to get things going. nothing stops us fans from being creative though. ;)

DAmned Nitwerk idiots!!!!

I hear ya - :salute:

Jewels, I've heard about that. Anne Lockhart has been quoted saying that. Apparently there was also suppose to be some talk about an alternate scene where Sheba did look in to the wrecked ship and saw the Cloven Hoof and might have screamed in horror.

If thats true i can't see where it would fit in between Iblis appearing and confronting them or earlier when Apollo and Starbuck saw the 'Dead Demons' inside the ship and stopped Sheba from entering. It might have occured after Apollo was killed and just before the Shuttle journey leaving the red planet. In any case. But Sheba screaming? Doesn't fit her character, best to leave that part out, that is if such a scene was actually shot all together?

While the "Hooves" may have looked bad, the props for the Dead Demons might have been more scary?! My imagination always plays tricks on me about this episode. Sometimes, i keep thinking to myself, did i or didn't i see what was inside the ship? Other times i thought wasn't there a loud but different noise when both Apollo then later Stabuck shot Iblis with the laser pistols?

Ah just my imagination is all.

Adam Stacey's second season fictional storylines scripts. Has a beautiful ending 3 part story called "A New Threat" or something to that end. "A MUST READ!" It soo... well done it outghta be considered canon should there be a continuation one day. I read it and i think to myself. THIS IS WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED had Count Iblis demonic allies turned up. It's such a wicked follow up to 'War Of The Gods'. If Larson had planned out what Stacey had done in his fanfic scripts, Galactica would have gone from strength to strength no doubt.

Satyrs indeed! :devil:

I've said before maybe Larson used some of the things he planned for Galactica in Buck Rogers? We know the props and models of BG were reused for Buck Rogers In The 25th century. Buck's second season had him being turned into a Satyr. It didn't fit the show somehow, a retooled Battlestar Galactica 'script' idea perhaps?!

More food for thought, but it's just my opinion i could be wrong?

KJ

kingfish

October 30th, 2004, 07:00 AM

Jason those are the exact words from the novelization of War of the Gods from memory. I wish I could get my hooves on a copy. I guess they aren't going to reprint the entire series of I books( Young Warriors looks like the last) .

October 31st, 2004, 09:49 AM

I wish they would reprint the books. The ones they've done so far aren't hard to find. Most comic conventions, old book shops and markets places have the early Galactica Berkley books in the series. It's the laters one from 7 upwards fans want.

*Sigh* (more frustrations for BG fans eh?)

Got a good link to a review of War Of the Gods.

http://www.firsttvdrama.com/show1/largcast/wargods1.php3

And a link to Adam Stacey's kick ass Battlestar Galactica fanfic Second Season scripts. And FF timeline.

http://www.msu.edu/~stacey/Galactica/gal-fanfic.htm

http://www.msu.edu/user/stacey/Galactica/gal-time.htm

KJ

:cool:

Eric Paddon

October 31st, 2004, 09:59 AM

Adam's stories were one of my early inspirations for realizing the potential that fanfic has to offer to a fanbase starved for a continuation story. Unfortunately, Adam's last story in his incomplete second season was written some five years ago and based on some remarks he made when he resurfaced earlier this year in one of the mailing lists, I don't see him having any plans for resuming them.

October 31st, 2004, 11:53 AM

We BG fans think alike Eric! I just love the fact he introduced so much. i've only read some of the important storyarcs in his fanfics. But wow, i read the stories he has done and i think to myself THATS HOW LARSON SHOULD have done it.

But seeing as Larson did G80 and Buck Rogers season 2 and yes fans mull over the weird 2nd season outline that cropped up? Nope Larson didn't envision what Adam and many other here did about what really would have happened in season 2. It has been said Larson pretty excellent at selling a fantastic concept for a series, but once thats done he should step well back from it. And just handle the producing duties. I've always said from; McCloud through Qunicy, The Six Million Dollarman, BG, Buck Rogers, The Fall Guy and Knight Rider were Larson's golden years most of what came after that era was he best recognised work (mostly because most of them are so well known), soon died afterwards.

Reading Adam's The New Threat and several others. This is the stuff of "Legend" what every fan more or less dreamed might have happened, it's like most fans think on the same wavelength far as imagination goes. Adam even done some character driven stories rather than actions ones involving dog fighting battles with Cylons. And a TOS Star Trek kinda episode with Apollo on trial for negligence resulting in the deaths of a ship's crewmates?

I've practically downloaded all his stories but have yet to finish reading all he did. His stuff along with other fanfics like "Ending and Beginnings" and "School of Fear" from other places. It is the stuff that makes Galactica fandom all the more enjoyable to be a fan of just like B5, Star Trek and Star Wars etc.

KJ

P.S. Eric didn't you do the story with Colonel Tolan? If it was you. It most certainly a great read. i got it saved somewhere. Got to read it completely as of yet. but you've joined the club of great BG fanfic writers alright. Have you done any more?

Eric Paddon

October 31st, 2004, 01:25 PM

Well I did do a Tolen story that is also a sequel to "The Lost Warrior" if that's the one you mean. That's one of my earlier efforts from about eight or nine years ago. Glad you liked that one!

I've done probably two dozen stories at this point, with the centerpieces being adaptations of the original series episodes, a "Galactica 1980" trilogy of stories that attempts to fix that misbegotten universe, a crossover with the first Planet Of The Apes movie and in conjunction with several other fanfic writers we are doing our own "Second Season" project that is currently in progress with ten stories written so far. The link for where all of my stories and over 300 fanfic stories by a wide diversity of authors can be found is here:

http://www.galacticafanfic.com/bsg-page.html

And within that site for the second season stories:

http://www.galacticafanfic.com/stories/season2.html

Happy reading!

October 31st, 2004, 02:13 PM

Yep been to that particular link Eric, thanks. Even when browsing through there you get a very strong sense of the uniqueness but similarities all the writers have telling those stories.

Kinda funny, but with the CFF effort i feel what would happen if Fans send Larson their stories showing him fans still care and the Galactica fans have their own vision of a take a "Second season" of BG should have gone. But i guess that move would be considered wrong? Still fans can group together and continue their unrealised dream of what might have happened had the show gone on. Where no stupid network executives telling you the "Plug's" been pulled?

I have my own outline to present, remember my Season by Season outline i did on skiffy? The mere i idea i had sprung up from a post i had over there. i liked the idea since then, but have yet to do it up professionally. I would think at least if i made it good enough to show off. One day i could show it to any of the Galactica cast at conventions.

Yeah a pipe dream. but i've met several at cons so it's ain't that far off a dream is it?

Anyways Eric all the best to you and your writers group doing fanfics of a 2nd season BG scripts. I suupose like Adam's scripts you'll be covering the unresolved things of BG season 1. Count Iblis minions?, The Borellian Nomen who went off with Commandant Leiter 'Maga, Bora and Taba', Cylons, The Ship of Lights, Baltar's fate, Commander Cain and the Pegasus etc. I hope you can up the stakes and blow away everybody with mind bending stuff.

:thumbsup:

KJ

Senmut

October 31st, 2004, 02:17 PM

Wouldn't hurt if we sent our stuff to Larson. I'm sure it won't kill us, and if it has no effect we're in no worse shape than now.

Eric Paddon

October 31st, 2004, 05:05 PM

"I suupose like Adam's scripts you'll be covering the unresolved things of BG season 1. Count Iblis minions?"

Check. Story #7 "The Derelict" (by yours truly). ;)

It'd be great if Larson or some cast members could get some exposure to what various authors have done, though the real joy is in letting the non-writing fanbase have something to compensate for what we haven't been given on film.

Senmut

November 2nd, 2004, 12:59 AM

And writing all this stuff feels good. Given how close our writers have stuck to the feel and texture of the show, I would say that we do understand what the fan base wants!

Aeneas

November 2nd, 2004, 12:46 PM

Eric Paddon

December 12th, 2004, 09:49 AM

There are still some Realm Press stories I need to get up to speed on since I never got all the issues of that comics run, unlike the Marvel and Max Press issues where I have every issue. I'd definitely be interested in seeing that one!

It would have been nice if WOTG had ultimately played up this angle a bit more beyond the Iblis-Baltar conversation, like perhaps something said by the SOL being at the end about Iblis and other things he'd done (like, "he tried to enslave your people just as he once enslaved the original Cylon race").

December 12th, 2004, 11:48 AM

There are still some Realm Press stories I need to get up to speed on since I never got all the issues of that comics run

Don't think anyone's got the entire run of Realm Press comics Eric. Many were convention exclusives available only in the United States if i remember correctly? while i have several comics of them myself. I don't have all of them. i just hope more turn up at comic conventions when i go looking for some.

It would have been nice if WOTG had ultimately played up this angle a bit more beyond the Iblis-Baltar conversation, like perhaps something said by the SOL being at the end about Iblis and other things he'd done (like, "he tried to enslave your people just as he once enslaved the original Cylon race").

I think Iblis at the time was just interested in destroying the Cylon race, and then he could move on to humanity afterwards. "One race at a time" as it were.

If I were writing a full backstory on how Iblis did this, I would see him as someone who took the form of a living Cylon and gave them the technological breakthrough to develop the centurion robot (perhaps the old Cylon race was in a war where they needed such technology to win, or perhaps even in a civil war with each other and Iblis helped one side), knowing that inevitably the robots would destroy the living Cylons.

Far as playing up the Count Iblis background. I'd also like the possibility of the SOL beings revealing to the colonials other things about Count Iblis like for instance, that he isn't the only fallen 'Angel' i.e. the "Angel"/"Morning Star" that became Satan. In the bible Satan was cast out but also along with 1 third of heaven's angels who also rebelled against god?

Would be interesting if the metaphor could be played up that Iblis along with several other outcast, also are out there fighting amounst each other? Iblis did tell Adama off, when Adama just assumed Iblis only enemies might be the Cylons in the universe! (Iblis could have meant alot of things with that line?) The SOL beings, telling the Colonial Warriors to beware in their travels of others like Iblis would be a great forshadow of other powerful renegades just like Iblis who were once like them but are corrupt and dangerous. Iblis has other enemies in the universe besides the SOL beings? His other brothers and sisters out there who also rebelled for example? Siblings do fight each other don't they?

I'm trying to work some of that into my season by season script BG continuation outline (a work in progress!)

Anyway, just my two cents!

Later

KJ

:salute:

January 5th, 2005, 06:03 AM

Apollo fell to the ground in a heap after his two guards tossed him into the holding cell. The cage door slammed shut and they left him inside the dark chamber. A groan erupted in the far corner and Apollo cautiously made his way to inspect the noise. A form lay slumped on the ground breathing uneasily.

"Bojay!"

"Apollo?" replied the warrior weakly "We thought you were dead." "No," Bojay coughed spasmodically. "Just captured. Unfortunately." Apollo examined his body for any signs of wounds but could find none. "I don't see anything cuts or broken bones. Where are you hurting?" Bojay raised his right hand and brought two fingers to touch his temple. "In here." Apollo stared in shock but Bojay simply smiled back. "They're methods of interrogation are not as physically brutal but equally damaging.

They possess powers of the mind, Apollo. Amazing powers. Able to extract any thought from your mind or inflict any form of pain they can imagine." "Why?" said Apollo in shock. "They needed a specimen to examine. To be sure of what they believed." "What did they need to be sure about?"

"That we were human. That's all." "We were human," repeated Apollo. A memory flashed into his mind. A scene from his past on an alien world stained red in the blood of evil. Starbuck, Sheba and himself were standing on a rock outcropping looking down on the wreckage of a downed starship. Apollo remembered thinking to himself that whatever hit the planet must have been as big as a battlestar. The Satyr warship's bulk was greater than the Galactica's. A new memory flashed into his mind, of seeing a man in white robes standing above them as they surveyed the impact crater. "I don't want to be reminded of what happened to my people," said the Count. His people, thought Apollo. Another memory burst into his mind's eye and he remembered their last encounter on another alien world where Adama, Sheba and himself had been tested by the Lord of Evil. "I have other minions," echoed Iblis' voice.

"Followers who will do my bidding. They are powerful and they are numerous." Then a hazy memory finally clarified in his mind. An incident shortly before his death. The trauma to his system had always clouded the events on the planet's surface shortly before Iblis' attack but for once he could remember without difficulty.

A door forced open and the contents of an alien vessel revealed. A passenger. A crewman whose body had survived the terrible collision with the planet's surface. A twisted, ugly form with black, coarse hair and two knobby horns jutting out of the head. But what Apollo remembered most of all was the foot. Not the foot of a man or any other being he had encountered but the cloven hoof of a satyr. "Bojay," said Apollo as he emerged from his thoughts. "I think we're in a lot of trouble.

"Bojay laughed until the pain forced him to stop. "You're just now realizing that?" "This is more than just you or I, Bojay. Our entire Fleet is in danger. We've stumbled across something greater than a first contact. We're now embroiled in a war between good and evil. "Bojay knew Apollo was a serious character but his prophecy of doom was intimidating him. "Lighten up, Apollo. Your father will get out of this mess." "I'm not so sure this time. Before I came here, I intercepted a transmission from the Fleet. They were under Cylon attack."

"Cylons! Great and I thought we had enough problems to deal with. First, we're
out of fuel. Second, we're practically starving. Third, we have a new enemy that you contend represents some dark, evil force in the universe. Those tin cans have the worst sense of timing." "Well, that's beyond our control. For now we have to find a way out of here. Tell me about your interrogation. Anything you can remember." "I'd rather not." Bojay put a hand to his head and tried to ease the ache. "But if you insist. . ."

Beautiful passage from Adam Stacey's A New Threat Part 2 story.

Nice reminder of how Battlestar Galactica is continued better from the fans active and rather passionate imagination's.

KJ

peter noble

January 14th, 2005, 09:03 AM

War of the Gods

http://img141.exs.cx/img141/5530/wog1header5lg.jpg

Original Airdate Part 1: January 14, 1979

Writer: Glen A. Larson.

Director: Dan Haller.

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Guest Cast: Patrick Macnee (Count Iblis), Kirk Alyn (Old Man), Bruce Wright (Guard), Paul Coufos (Pilot), John Williams (Statesman).

http://img141.exs.cx/img141/9838/wog12strip8jh.jpg

A Viper patrol vanishes after encountering a mysterious Light Ship. Apollo, Starbuck and Sheba are sent out to investigate and discover the wreckage of a vessel on a nearby planet. There, they meet Count Iblis, an elusive stranger, who returns with them to the Galactica. Iblis quickly rises to prominence by performing powerful miracles, such as delivering Baltar to the Council of Twelve for justice. Adama questions his motives as Iblis comes closer to gaining control of the fleet.

http://img76.exs.cx/img76/1836/wog13strip9ka.jpg

In retrospect, the most unique aspect of War of the Gods was that it was every broadcast at all. "I think I started to lose the network executives," Larson recalls. "I don't think they knew what to make of the series at that point. They had been trying to overlay all of these basic soap opera principles on us but at that point we were writing faster than they could keep up with us. They didn’t know what to do with us at that point and I think some of them had written us off."
Lockhart recalls one humorous incident between her and Patrick McNee during filming. Iblis, in an effort to comfort Sheba, leans forward and says, “Oh Sheba, nothing can harm you as long as I am inside you. I would just lose it every time he said this to me,” laughs Lockhart. “We got a bad case of the giggles.”

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After repeated attempts to get the scene, the actors called Larson to the set. “I said to Glen you can’t have this man say this to me,” says Lockhart, “and Glen said there was nothing naughty about it. It’s just the intent of Iblis taking your spirit and he’s possessing you and all this stuff. Glen insisted on it and we finally pulled ourselves together and actually shot him saying the line, my reaction and the kiss. They edited the show and sent it to ABC and Standards and Practices cut it.”

http://img18.exs.cx/img18/3976/wog1tag4yr.jpg

peter noble

January 21st, 2005, 07:21 AM

http://img156.exs.cx/img156/356/wog2header9pj.jpg

Original Airdate Part 2: January 21, 1979

http://img128.exs.cx/img128/3483/wog2strip10ur.jpg

Writer: Glen A. Larson.

Director: Dan Haller.

http://img142.exs.cx/img142/5051/wog2strip26wp.jpg

Guest Cast: Patrick Macnee (Count Iblis), Kirk Alyn (Old Man), Bruce Wright (Guard), Paul Coufos (Pilot), John Williams (Statesman).

http://img142.exs.cx/img142/1101/wog2strip39sb.jpg

Fans of the series have long questioned a mystery raised in the episode’s finale. Returning to the planet to investigate Iblis’ ship, Apollo, Starbuck and Sheba make a shocking discovery in the wreckage. That discovery, however, was never revealed on screen. "What you were going to see there was a cloven hoof," says story editor Jim Carlson, "but the network wouldn't allow that. We were going to have a very stylized boot so it would look like some unearthly being."

http://img142.exs.cx/img142/4069/wog2strip44an.jpg

“It was horrible,” recalls Lockhart. “It was supposed to be something malevolent and deadly looking when I go in there. Apparently it was on short notice and this was the best they could come up with to suggest this Mephistopheles character – but they couldn’t show anything so they had to cover it. It looked like a dead sheep under a blanket with its feet sticking out. It was about the most unthreatening thing you have ever seen. It was far more effective to not ever show what we saw because for 25 years people have been asking about it.”
http://img135.exs.cx/img135/7862/wog2strip59ih.jpg

She laughs, “I guess I am a better actress than I thought because what I was reacting to was a furniture pad with four phoney feet sticking out of it.”

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skippercollecto

January 24th, 2005, 04:41 AM

1. Has it ever been determined who played the fourth triad player (the guy with the mustache)? Who was the sports announcer? Who played the angels? They are all uncredited.
2. Iblis allows the Council of 12 to ask for three requests. You hear the first two--Baltar's surrender, and the coordinates to Earth. The third is never mentioned. I am wondering if the writers simply didn't know what to come up with, and so never created one.
3. When Galactica first aired in 1978 and 1979, there was a two and a half month gap between the first episode of Living Legend and the last episode of War of the Gods, because of the holidays and reruns. In those five episodes, Anne Lockhart was originally listed as a guest star. She wasn't added to the opening credits until Man with Nine Lives. There was no discussion anywhere about her being added to the series (the Internet didn't exist yet, and there were no fan clubs), so I didn't know her status. I have always thought she was supposed to die at the end of War of the Gods. It looked to me like the script was rewritten during November and December 1978 after the producers discovered that the public liked her character. What do you think?
4. In a deleted scene on the DVD, Starbuck and Boomer are getting ready to play triad. Look at the two players in the background--one of them looks like Ortega!
5. The music in this episode is not repeated anywhere else, especially the scene with the Ship of Lights. The music for those scenes is reminiscent of Carmina Burana. What is Carmina Burana, you ask? It was a poem written in Latin hundreds of years ago about fate and death. It was set to music in the 1930s by Carl Orff, and in the past 15 years has become a popular choral piece. It is used as trailer music for every upcoming horror movie anymore. Yet the music would not have been well-known in the 1970s, so it wouldn't have been obvious then. I don't have a way to upload music. Perhaps one of you can upload the Ship of Lights theme and the brief segment of Carmina Burana that sounds almost identical.

Mary

January 24th, 2005, 04:59 PM

2. Iblis allows the Council of 12 to ask for three requests. You hear the first two--Baltar's surrender, and the coordinates to Earth. The third is never mentioned. I am wondering if the writers simply didn't know what to come up with, and so never created one.

Great writing talent often don't fill in all the blanks? After all many things are designed to be open ended.

Like the brief case in Pulp Fiction? was with the gold tint etc. just cos you see gold tint doesn't mean the case was full of gold bars. Best thing about the 3 requests for Iblis was that, Adama and the Council were stalling etc, no matter was thought up the 3 had to be VERY important. Even so, we know that Iblis wasn't really performing miracles just taking advantage of his brothers (light orbs) presence nearby helping the colonials inadvertly (i.e. the food sources on the agroships.)

Fans could guess up all kinds of 3 requests to foil Iblis in that episode. but knowing what his character turned out to be (Satan) what kind of 3 request would outdo Iblis? Maybe thats the whole point, hoping you don't get to 3? Iblis warned Adama what happens when a mortal breaks a bargain with him but reveals his identity even further by saying that.

While it's good to wonder "what if". Imagine all the failures had they went ahead?

Count Iblis your 'third' request is...."Destroy the Cylons for us?"

No problem being he created them technically? [converts the humans to enslaved demons?]

Locate the 13th Tribe?

He's a demon (Satan at that) Iblis would screw the colonials over by sending them to see some desendants of the 13th tribe but just not at Earth? (maybe ones that left the group before finding Earth?) [then converts human to demons]

Locate the Pegasus Guess Sheba cuts in and demanded the return of the Pegasus! Iblis has an agenda, no matter what you'd ask for in the end he wants souls, souls of the colonials. Iblis could have located the real Pegasus and then converted the fleet to demons cos they chose to follow him, doesn't make a lick of a difference. Don't make deals with devils and don't get screwed over with.

The writers were so good on these episodes, i'm glad there are so many ways to look back and take it apart and see how juicy the story was after all these years.

The subtly of the writting was good enough to allow people/fans to ask unending questions as to how this and that would have come about. And all the great, what if scenarios.

KJ

:thumbsup:

TopGun

February 22nd, 2005, 02:37 PM

I liked these episodes

The scene where Starbuck shoots Iblis and you see his true form kinda reminds me of Monkey

Eric Paddon

May 7th, 2005, 08:48 AM

For a number of years we've been trying to figure out the various mysteries of who were the actors who provided voices for certain characters. Since determining that Murray Matheson provided the voice of Spektor in "The Young Lords" the only remaining mystery has been who did the voice of the lead SOL being in both this episode and "Experiment In Terra."

I think the mystery has finally been solved. While recently watching for the first time "Buck Rogers" on DVD, I could have sworn the voice of "Dr. Theophilus" was the same voice as that of the lead SOL being. Doing an imdb search I discover that Dr. Theophilius was voiced by an actor named Eric Server, who by a remarkable coincidence appears in Galactica on camera as "Dipper" in "The Magnificent Warrirors" (as Barry Nelson's lead henchman).

peter noble

May 7th, 2005, 03:24 PM

Eric Paddon

May 7th, 2005, 04:30 PM

Glad I wasn't alone! :) This drove me nuts for years because unlike Spektor, where I could finally recognize Matheson's voice after awhile given the frequency I see him in other TV episodes over the years, the SOL voice never struck any familiarity from someplace else until I watched Buck for the first time (yep, I actually went 25 years without ever watching an episode!).

Senmut

May 8th, 2005, 01:16 AM

You didn't miss alot. As to Matheson's voice, I will confess I recognized him at once, from his role on Banacek.

TopGun

June 19th, 2005, 04:11 AM

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, apologies if it has.

Iblis is supposed to be the Devil right, and his voice was put into the Cylon Emperor. And then theres the cylon called Lucifer, which is one of the many names of the Devil.

Charybdis

June 20th, 2005, 08:49 AM

As for Anne Lockhart joining the show. Anne has always said that she was a friend of Glen's and he created the part just for her to join the show. Only, they didn't want to tell everyone right off that she was joining the show as one of the main actors, so they didn't tell anyone and just had her "guest starrring" at first. Once she did well on the show and her character was established, she joined the show officially. It had nothing to do with the audience...

Eric Paddon

January 9th, 2006, 05:06 PM

An addendum to my post from last May identifying Eric Server as the voice of the SOL being in this episode. Since posting that, I've learned that in fact while Server did do Dr. Theophilius throughout the run of Buck Rogers, in the pilot movie, the character was voiced by a very obscure actor named Howard F. Flynn, and *that* is who I believe voiced the SOL being in WOTG and EIT. His voice is much deeper than Server's.

skippercollecto

January 12th, 2006, 03:02 PM

Since the Internet as we know it didn't exist yet in 1978, and there was far less entertainment publicity then than there is now, we the viewers didn't learn for almost 2 1/2 months that Anne had become a regular part of the cast.
I know that, on the DVD set, that Anne is listed as a regular cast member right after Living Legend, but that is incorrect. Living Legend debuted in November 1978, and because of pre-emptions and Christmas the show aired only sporadically that fall and winter. Anne was originally listed in the guest cast for both episodes of Living Legend, Fire in Space, and both parts of War of the Gods. Only once during one of the runs of syndicated repeats were the correct opening credits used for FIS and WOTG.
When I first watched the series in 1978 and 1979, I really liked Sheba, but I thought for sure she would eventually be killed off. I've always suspected that that was the original premise of WOTG. Sheba was supposed to die, but Apollo took her place, so when they went to "heaven," the angel would have the two of them to switch places.
I was quite pleased when she didn't die, and then, when Man With Nine Lives aired, she was shown in the opening credits (which I think was February by then).
Mary

Eric Paddon

January 12th, 2006, 07:23 PM

Actually, the credits for "Fire In Space" have always correctly listed Anne as just part of the "guest cast" but in WOTG she was always pictured with the regular cast (they used a not too good still of her the first few episodes she was a regular, but then changed it starting in GFE).

Senmut

January 12th, 2006, 11:46 PM

What still should they have used, EP?

Eric Paddon

January 13th, 2006, 05:00 PM

No particular one, just that the one they used for several episodes, a shot of her on the planet in WOTG from the right side, tended to be a bit unflattering compared to the ones used for Maren and Laurette. Starting in GFE they used a shot of her from that episode when she's in the OC with Starbuck, Boomer and Apollo discussing the Terrans, that from the other side was an improvement. I wouldn't be surprised if Anne or someone else noticed that the earlier shot they used wasn't particularly flattering, since that was the only time a cast member's picture was changed in that sequence.

Digger_One

February 24th, 2006, 06:48 AM

About the famous "What was inside the wreakage" mystery.

When I first saw this episode, and we see Apollo and Starbuck's reactions to the interior of the wreck, I started to get the impression that maybe it was the wreakage of the Battlestar Pegasus. But, for some reason, I never once thought that Commander Cain's body was in the wreck. I always thought for some reason that it was a large version of the insignia of the Battlestar Pegasus. I was also dissapointed when we never find out what was in that wreakage.

Oh yeah, the endding of part one really, and I mean REALLY creeped me out when I first saw it. I was all focused on Baltar's surrender and the mystery of Count Iblis, then, suddenly, cue the creepy music and a sudden reminder of The Ship of Lights with the dreaded "To Be Continued" title. There was just something about it that creeped me out badly.

:viper:

EDIT: The scene creeps me out, and yet I use it as my avatar... :)

spcglider

May 19th, 2006, 08:18 AM

Hey folks,

A while back, somebody posted scans of shooting schedules for WOTG showing the mentin of "cloven hoof props" in response to my yakking about how i thought they didn't ever exist and that they had never existed until Glen Larson wanted to bring the Pegasus back for a return engagement.

But to set me right, somebody produced those documents.

I can't find the thread and i can't locate the posts. Can whoever posted that post them again or send me jpegs of the scans? I'm currently trying to end a long-standing argument about this very subject and they'd be quite helpful.

Thanks for any help!

-Gordon :salute:

Wildcard

October 25th, 2006, 11:25 AM

we know that Iblis and Imperious leader had the same voice(Patrick Macanee of course)as Baltar notes when Iblis came to visit him on the prison barge. So does anyone else see something sinister in the fact that the opening lines, "There are those who believe that life here began out there....." ARE IN THE SAME VOICE? :eek:

skippercollecto

July 9th, 2014, 08:32 PM

Remember the first time that Apollo, Starbuck and Sheba land on the planet to find Iblis, that the light is really weird? But when they return, the light looks normal? I know that the technical reason is that whoever was filming that day forgot to put the filter back on the camera to create the weird light. And I am sure someone out there has come up with a fan fiction version as to why the color of the air was so eerie.
I have come up with a completely natural reason for the difference in the light. It happened Monday night around Cincinnati, Ohio, at sunset. The sky was breathtaking--and surreal. I took a photo of it from my apartment balcony, and plenty of people sent in their own shots to the local media. The meteorologists used the term "scattering," a rare but completely normal phenomenon regarding the molecules and ice crystals in the sky being hit by the sinking sun's rays.
Here is a link to the photo that I took.
http://twitpic.com/e7vm7n
Here are the links to the local media.
NBC http://www.wlwt.com/news/26835696#!bbXLCf
ABC http://www.wcpo.com/news/news-photo-gallery/storms-cause-strange-golden-glow-in-tri-state-skies
http://mic.com/articles/93261/the-science-behind-the-fire-sky-that-dazzled-spectators-at-monday-s-cincinnati-reds-baseball-game
So perhaps when the three warriors landed on the planet, it was near sunset after a storm.

Senmut

July 10th, 2014, 04:21 PM

It was supposed to be different because all the alien plant life, which gave a surrealistic look to the surroundings, were burned off in the area around the crash. Without the alien leaves et al to filter the sunlight, it looked more normal. That at least was the explanation I came up with when I first saw it, back in '78.
And I'm stickin' to it!

Eric Paddon

October 15th, 2020, 09:52 AM

The most significant thing about this episode.....one that more than anything else enhanced the overall mythos of the Galactica saga is the Baltar-Iblis conversation in Pt. 2 and the revelation of Iblis and the Imperious Leader having the same voice, followed by the clear implication that Iblis was the one responsible for the downfall of the original Cylon race.

And after reading the original script for WOTG, it's clear that this important moment was something that wasn't anticipated because the Baltar-Iblis scene is nowhere to be found in the script. As if it was a device to quickly capitalize on once Patrick Macnee was cast in the role and decide to confront the coincidence rather than just ignore it.

It'd be interesting to know from production history when Macnee was cast and when that triggered the script rewrite. If this element of being connected to the rise of the Cylons had not been present in the script to deepen the mythos surrounding Iblis then the episode I think would have come off far less than it did ultimately.

Senmut

October 17th, 2020, 08:37 PM

Well, it was a brilliant piece of scripting, on the run, as it were. It makes the whole BSG universe somehow more realistic, and tied in to things Of Earth.

Eric Paddon

November 30th, 2020, 04:26 PM

There is a deleted scene at the beginning of Part 2 that had it remained, I think would have done a lot to dispel the biggest knock that's often made at the series regarding the military-Council relationship. Critics often point to the way the Council comes off in GFE and especially "Baltar's Escape" to note how stupid and dangerous the Council is. And WOTG also gets cited to note how quick the Council is willing to make Iblis the President following Baltar's capture.

But actually the scene where Adama is able to get a delay from the Council runs much longer in its unedited state (I don't think it was even put back in the telemovie version) and John Williams's Sire Montrose (in his last ever role BTW) proves to be far more thoughtful and intelligent than does Murray Matheson's Geller in GFE or John Hoyt's Domra in BE. He listens thoughtfully to Adama, acknowledges his points and is then willing to agree to the delay. In short, we get to see Adama interacting with the Council in a way that critics of the series say never happened!

I can understand why for timing and pacing this scene was lost because those are the demands and pressures you face (and if the scene had been kept it would have meant losing something else later). It's too bad that Adama's interactions with the Council in the Terra episodes weren't written as well as this one was.

DrWho42

February 24th, 2021, 11:07 AM

the patrick macnee guest role! i loved the avengers :D