BG-08: The Living Legend

[Flamingo Girl]

The legendary Commander Cain of the battlestar Pegasus meets up with the Colonial survivors and ignites a new campaign against the Cylons at Gamoray. But Adama finds Cain's warmonging ways to threaten the fleet's very existence, despite to renewed morale among the Colonials.


Series stars; Richard Hatch as Apollo, Dirk Benedict as Starbuck, Herb Jefferson Jr. as Boomer, Lorne Greene as Adama, Terry Carter as Colonel Tigh, Maren Jensen as Athena, Tony Swartz as Jolly, Laurette Spang as Cassiopia, Noah Hathaway as Boxey, Sarah Rush as Rigel, David Greenan as Omega, and John Colicos as Baltar.

Guest stars include Lloyd Bridges as Commander Cain, Anne Lockhart as Sheba, Jack Stauffer as Bojay, Rod Haase as Tolan, and Junero Jennings as the Pegasus Bridge Officer.



(Thanks to Michael Faries Battlestar Galactica.com (http://www.battlestargalactica.com/about/index.html ))

[kingfish]

This is perhaps the greatest episode of the series. Cain is a leader who will take chances. He like Patton is also broken but latter reinstated. Cain doesn't like to run and will tackle his enemies head on. Baltar seems like he is going to have a nervous breakdown throughout the episode.

Centurion: Sir if I may.

Baltar: Not now I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar.

Centurion: I really think you should see the other battlestar.

Baltar:What are you babbling about a ................

The look on Baltar's face says it all.

Another nice edition was the Sheba character who gives Apollo a run for his money. Sheba is bold and brash like her Father. She is also the first strong female character on a science fiction show. Too bad they were looking to kill her off in the second season. That would have been the worst decision made.

[kingfish]

Cain's quotes:

Adama's Quarters

Cain: Fuel tankers? What are you talking about Adama? I have had them on their knees with one Battlestar with two I can finish them.

Adama: In case you haven't noticed I have 220 ships which make perfect targets for Cylon gunners.

Cain:We can finish them on Gamorray.

Adama: A military victory is out of the question.
==============================================

Galactica War Room.

Cain:We must take that base.

Adama: That is one opinion Commander however it isn't mine. Colonel Tigh proceed with the fuel dispersement.

Cain: I can't allow you to do that. I think surviving two Yahren out here without you gives me the right to decide the destiny of the Pegasus.

Adama: Like you decided the fate of two Cylon tankers? Commander you are relieved of command.

[shiningstar]

This was one of my favorite episodes ever.
Cain reminded me of Douglas Macarthur and Adama
reminded me of Harry Truman when he was forced
to Fire Macarthur ......because as Truman said there
can only be ONE commander and chief

{and it wasn't Macarthur.}

I think the friction between Adama and Cain really added to
the story line.

[Reaper63]

Cai was a great character, single minded enough to climb into a Viper to make sure the Raid on the Tankers didn't work.He felt so strong about attacking the main base, that he risked everything.

Again another show that delivered time and again the Action I liked seeing as a kid.

And seeing Apollo and Starbuck strap on the second Lasers for the Raid was great!

[kingfish]

Welcome Reaper.

[Reaper63]

Thanls Kingfish, I really should have been here sooner, but you know about real life, lol.

[amberstar]

This is one of my favorite episodes!
Instead of always being the prey, the Galatica is on the attack! Teamed up with Cain, one of the best rolls in Galatica saga. I think this was a tuning point in the serries. With additonal cast it gave the show more directions to go in. Left us hanging about the fate of Cain!
You can feel the morale of both crews and it captures the viewer making them feel apart of the show. Very well written and excuted lines by the actors.


Amberstar

[shiningstar]

Yes it was nice to see the Galactica on the attack.

I still say the relationship between CAIN and ADAMA was
like Douglas MacArthur and Harry S. Truman

[kingfish]

Cain was modeled after the famous WWII General. Cain is relieved of command but never fired. This is similar to what happened to Patton during WWII.

[shiningstar]

It sure is Kingfish ............but I still identify more with the
Douglas MacArthur persona then General Patton although
I do know you're right.

[Rickyrod70]

This episode was the saving grace of the series. It has the best story and best performances of the shows entire run.

[droopy]

Probably the million dollar question, Did the pegasus survive??

[kingfish]

Originally posted by droopy
Probably the million dollar question, Did the pegasus survive??


That is a million dollar question which can't be answered. There was a season 2 storyline in which the ship returns to the Colonal Fleet but inhabited by Cylon replicants of all things(Cain and crew are androids). Also in the season 2 story Sheba is killed at the opening.

[droopy]

that sounds rather crappy.

[CaptainApollo]

Hello folkes, :)

I forget where I read this,
but I believe originally the Battlestar Pegasus charged headlong into three Cylon Basestars,
took out some, but before the Pegasus could finish the last one off,

KA-BOOM
http://www.nightsoftware.com/compictures/agentsloan/Nuclear__12.jpg

a-la the Battlestar Atlantia,

But, wouldn't you know it eh,
the censors hated the Pegasus kamakazie ending,
so they took it out,

Originally posted by kingfish
That is a million dollar question which can't be answered. There was a season 2 storyline in which the ship returns to the Colonal Fleet but inhabited by Cylon replicants of all things(Cain and crew are androids). Also in the season 2 story Sheba is killed at the opening.


Take care, :)
CaptainApollo

[Belloby]

The conflict between Adama, the protector and Cain, the warrior, is among the best in science fiction. A must see.

[MMaola]

"The Living Legend" was one of my favorite episodes of BSG (I'm counting Parts I & II as a single episode here). It worked well on any level you care to mention. The Pegasus emerging like a ghost from the past and BOTH crews believing THEY were the only survivors. A military commander who is a tactical wizard and almost a demigod to his people going head to head with Adama -- obviously an old comrade-in-arms who now finds himself at odds with Cain. Sheba -- a viper pilot who can give as good as she gets and can outfly Apollo and Starbuck put together and yet is still sensitive and capable of great emotion and compassion. And, of course, the action. Who can forget the last scenes with Apollo and Starbuck flying interference between two Cylon base stars and the Pegasus plowing through the gauntlet, only to be lost from sight when the Cylons vaporize in a flash of radiant energy?

But more than that, the episode gave us memorable characters played by memorable and marvellous actors: Lloyd Bridges as Cain and Anne Lockhart as Sheba. I really think the casting of those two roles was perfect!

Now THAT was sci-fi and drama. That was Battlestar: Galactica at its best!

:warrior:

[Doctor Salik]

This is maybe the best episode. And actually this is one of the rare times when German dubbing works in favor of a show. Bridges' German voice adds a lot to his character. This is the one and only episode I do not watch in the original language.

[chez1701]

Would of been nice to have a 2nd season & seeing the Pegasus returning!!

[Doctor Salik]

I second that! I love seeing Adama and Cain argue over how to fight the Cylons.

[Muffit]

To me this was the quintessential BSG, everything it could be at last wrapped up into these 2 episodes. Also, I feel it was a turning point in the series and the eps after this were of better quality in general. John Colicos turns in a dynamite performance along with Lloyd Bridges.

It also broached a topic I had often wondered about and set it to rest for me. In all the other eps, Adama and the military are the rational saving grace of the fleet while the civilian council is ever duped into near destruction. But in this ep, Adama clearly draws the line between military control and conscientious safeguarding of the fleet. To me, when Adama pulls the ropes in on Cain in a decidedly non-military direction, he demonstrates that his command decisions both now and in the past have only been the minimum force required to protect the fleet. This yields a nice balance to the show in the end.

Favorite line:
Baltar: "It's impossible!"
Cylon: "No, it's a battlestar"

:muffit:

[silverspar]

Best episode ever, recorded that episode on vcr as a kid and watched it til i just about ruined the tape. as a few said it was great to see the Galactica on the attack with the Pegasus, instead of bein the crippled babysitter for the fleet. Every episode after that, i was waiting for another lost battlestar to pop up, but never happened.

just to be different, my quote:

adama: by the lords of cobal, its a miracle
cain: i make my own miracles, but ill let you have it your way.

[shiningstar]

Reaper Thanks for giving us that Pointer. I think it's a
great one.

[KJ]

According to BattlestarZone.com On Susan Paxton's site, in season two another Battlestar was rumored to show up. The "Battlestar Prometheus"! whether or not it was idle rumor or heresay? I'm surprised no ones followed this up to see if its true or not.

Another Colonial warship besides the Galactica and Pegasus would have been very interesting being, with the 12 colony worlds of the colonials had "Intersellar travel" starships. Not every vessel that the colonials had; could have been at the holocaust. it would have been very believable that the "Rag Tag fleet" met up with many explorers from their own galaxy; despite how far they when into the, wilderness depths of space.

I wonder if, like the BG Season 2 'outlined' plots there was a story where the colonials met up with another Battlestar besides Cain's and what possible said story, was about?

Living Legend, is one of the top three Battlestar Galactica episodes of the series run in my opinion!

KJ

:cool: :salute:

[shiningstar]

Well Lord KingJason since there was no season 2 there was
no way to follow this up unless someone could have talked
to Desanto or Larson. However ....... it would have been
nice. I for one was very, very angry when they took BSG
off the air. Especially since it was still in the top twenty
rated programs on TV and less POPULAR shows were being
KEPT.

I think BSG should have been allowed to continue on it's own
merits instead of being killed due to the almighty POCKET BOOK.

[KJ]

True, a second season might have had another Battlestar Commander who was as equally famous or as interesting that Commander Cain's character was.

ABC killed something that had a international fanbase that was very strong even in 1979 going on into the 1980's. Even after the G80 mis-fire. It's even more of a bitter pill to swallow that a reimagining of all things scewed up a decent follow up continuation series many of us have asked for, years later.


very sad indeed.

KJ

[WARDAGGIT73]

****

A superb episode matched only in it's action sequences by 'Hand of God' and 'Saga of a Star World 1,2&3...

[shiningstar]

True, a second season might have had another Battlestar Commander who was as equally famous or as interesting that Commander Cain's character was.

ABC killed something that had a international fanbase that was very strong even in 1979 going on into the 1980's. Even after the G80 mis-fire. It's even more of a bitter pill to swallow that a reimagining of all things scewed up a decent follow up continuation series many of us have asked for, years later.


very sad indeed.

KJ

Yes Universal did do that. However all is not lost. We still have
Richard Hatch working his ASSETTS off in order to keep BSG alive.
We still have this forum and others like it ......so all isn't lost. :warrior:

[Antelope]

In my opinion this was the best of all the Battlestar episodes. It is also a remake into the Galactica mythos of two of the more popular movies that preceeded it in the 1970s. Obviously Commander Caine was modeled after World War II General Patton as portrayed in the Academy award winning movie by George C. Scott a few years earlier. In addition the battle sequences loosely reflect the real battles of Coral Sea and Midway as portrayed in the movie Midway that also came out a few years earlier. The Galactica having the role of the Lexington and the Pegasus, the role of the Hornet. The suicidal attack of the Pegasus at the end was a good way to keep us wondering for the future while at the same time saving the producers the cost of the actors from the Pegasus if they kept it around.

In some prequel material I read the believed loss of the Pegasus and the fleet with it at the Battle of Molachy a couple yahrn prior to "Saga of A Star World" created a feeling of pending defeat in the colonial population and created the mindset where the colonials would accept an armistice with the cylons after nearly 1,000 yahrn of war.

The one thing I would question is why Commander Caine himself would have any illusions about defeating the cylon empire. His own fleet was destroyed. The colonials had been losing ground for nearly a thousand yahrn. When he met the Galactica he found the remnants of a defeated people on the edge of survival. He himself was unable to make contact with the colonial military for two years even before the home fleet was destroyed in "Saga of a Star World". From what we know of the situation even if Caine had 10 Battlestars there is no hope of destroying the cylon empire. If I could improve anything I would have make the battle out of forced neccesity not choice on the part of Commander Caine.

[shiningstar]

I really loved this episode. I think the reason WHY Cain did believe that the
CYLON empire WOULD FAIL ...............is because he DID NOT SEE the 'fall'
of the COLONIES. Being in deep space and Maintaining radio silence it would
make sense that coming upon Gamoray ............. and constantly doing raids right
under the cylon's noses .........he would become over confident in his abilities to
destroy the CYLON empire. Since the base stars weren't bothering him ......and since
he didn't have 243 civilian ships to protect. He had a free reign and was free to do
as he wished as far as battling the cylons went.

[Antelope]

Commander Caine was a fleet commander who only two years earlier had his entire fleet destroyed except for the Pegasus. He would be under the illusion the home worlds were still at war prior to meeting the Galactica and yet he was incapable of returning because of cylon defenses. He should be under no illusion of the situation. More than likely the number of cylon Basestars must be huge even compared to the colonial fleet destroyed at "Saga of A Star World". We are never told how big the entire cylon fleet was but prior to "Saga of A Star World" it was more than enough to at a minmum fight the colonials to a draw even when they were in full war mode. Everything we see in TOS points to the fact that the colonials were slowly losing the war even prior to the start of TOS.

[shiningstar]

Antelope you said yourself that Cain was based on General Patton.
Since General Patton didn't believe in retreating and had a big ego
to match ...........why should Cain ...........since Cain's ego was about
the same size...............

[Antelope]

That's the one thought I had for Caine to explain his actions. I think he may have enjoyed his two yahrn personal war against the cylons and did not enjoy being under the control of the "government" again. Now that Sheba was safely aboard the Galactica with the rest of the fleet Caine preferred to go down in a blaze of glory rather than spend the rest of his life fleeing. That makes sense for his final battle but does not explain his willingness to send the entire human population down in a blaze of glory as his original plans would have ultimately led to. It's great television even if it doesn't make total sense!

[braxiss]

if cain is based on patton than all you have to know is that patton would not accept defeat, and he always beleived that no matter how much the odds were agaist him there was always a path to victory. knowing this shows us that cain did not attack three basestars as a suicide mission because he could't handle being under adama's authority, he did to protect the fleet, and he went in knowing there was always hope of survival.

[amberstar]

if cain is based on patton than all you have to know is that patton would not accept defeat, and he always beleived that no matter how much the odds were agaist him there was always a path to victory. knowing this shows us that cain did not attack three basestars as a suicide mission because he could't handle being under adama's authority, he did to protect the fleet, and he went in knowing there was always hope of survival.

I agree with you Braxiss, He did go in knowing there was hope of survival.
Even Adama guessed that at the last centon Cain must have turned out into deep space again. I always thought we would see Cain return just when it looked darkest for the fleet.

Amber :salute:

[Antelope]

I don't have the exact quote and maybe some can provide it but Commander Caine fully anticipated not surviving the final battle. Did he go out in a blaze of glory? We aren't for sure. Did Commander Caine have an ego? He sure did, but Adama knew what Caine was doing was militarily needed. The quote I am referring to went something like:

Caine to Adama: "Don't make my LAST battle an act of mutiny. Give me your blessing."

That is not the words of a man who anticipated survival.

[Antelope]

There are also quotes by Sheba and Cassie that explain that Commander Caine did not anticipate survival. He even transfered all vipers and non-essential personnel to the Galactica.

If you assume Count Iblis in the later episodes was not lying to Sheba about her seeing her father again and Count Iblis planned on taking her soul then you are also left with the conclusion the only way a "dead" Sheba would see her father was if he also was already "dead".

Fans want the Pegasus to return and the door was left open for the writers, but realistically Commander Caine did not anticipate survival. With no vipers and short on personnel how long the Pegasus could have survived in reality is not very long.

As a fan however I expect to see the Pegasus again!

[shiningstar]

It's true that Cain didn't "HAVE" any Viper Pilots.

However with Starbuck and Apollo coming up and
"Plowing the Field" and taking out the lazers on the
basestars ...........THAT gave Cain a chance that
he wouldn't have had otherwise.

In otherwords he did order the pilots to the galactica.
But Starbuck and Apollo ............'disobeyed' orders
'from a man who isn't obeying orders himself'.

Thereby giving him the chance 'he didn't think he had'.

[amberstar]

Yes Shiningstar, that may just have been what turned the tables in favor of Cain!

Amber

[shiningstar]

TY Amberstar For making my 'point' for me :thumbsup:

[Bombadil]

Regardless of what may have been the original intent of the writers, I am confident that the Pegasus is still out there. She was badly damaged in the fight with the base stars, but she survived, has completed repairs, and is again engaged behind enemy lines causing as much disruption as possible. She will rejoin the Galactica some day.

I hope Moore doesn't destroy her. We're down far enough as it is. I would rather not see half of our remaining military assets thrown away.

[launchcruiser7]

cain was goining to survive becuse he only took on twe basestar baltars ship was falling back the raders casing him were olow on fuel hand had only one baseship to land on baltars he blowed up realy good two basestars with missiles allbattlestar had them but adama wanted to save his cause they could not make more cain fried his to make sure baltar could not reload and come after the fleet with three baseships for sagans sake felercarb

[Phoenix]

Until I saw the extra on the DVD, I had always thought that when Apollo and Starbuck didn't want Sheba to look into the wreckage, it was her father, Cain that they saw. I had no idea it was cloven hoves as Glen said. The lines of "something as big as a battlestar crashed here" or similar suggested it was the Pegasus that crashed, at least to me. :D So if it was cloven hoves they saw and Iblis is the Devil, did the hoves belong to one of his "minions" then?

[Eric Paddon]

It's true that Cain didn't "HAVE" any Viper Pilots.


I've never bought this argument, nor have I ever bought the argument that Cain sent all his vipers to the Galactica. I think his approach is that normal military strategy dictates that when warships go at each other in a "toe to toe slugging match" then Vipers are not used because they only run the risk of being destroyed in the crossfire between a basestar and a battlestar.

Thus, to me Cain's pilots chose to stay aboard the Pegasus where they were needed. Notice that when Starbuck made his offer to stay behinnd, it wasn't in the context of willing to lead vipers into battle, but "to see this through with him."

Plus, we have to remember Sheba's comment in WOTG about Bojay being "all that I've got left". I don't think she would have made this remark if other Pegasus pilots she knew and flew with transferred over as well.

So wherever the Pegasus is after the events of LL, she still has most of her Vipers and nearly all of her pilots from my standpoint.

[kitty]

I've never bought this argument, nor have I ever bought the argument that Cain sent all his vipers to the Galactica. I think his approach is that normal military strategy dictates that when warships go at each other in a "toe to toe slugging match" then Vipers are not used because they only run the risk of being destroyed in the crossfire between a basestar and a battlestar.

Thus, to me Cain's pilots chose to stay aboard the Pegasus where they were needed. Notice that when Starbuck made his offer to stay behinnd, it wasn't in the context of willing to lead vipers into battle, but "to see this through with him."

Plus, we have to remember Sheba's comment in WOTG about Bojay being "all that I've got left". I don't think she would have made this remark if other Pegasus pilots she knew and flew with transferred over as well.

So wherever the Pegasus is after the events of LL, she still has most of her Vipers and nearly all of her pilots from my standpoint.

I aggree with you there, Eric.
I believe he would have kept some vipers back , so he could continue his guerilla type war with the cyclons.

[Antelope]

Caine: paraphase, "Adama don't make my LAST battle an act of mutiny. Give me your blessing."

The fans want the Pegasus to survive and the writers wrote in a doubt at the end so they could use it later if they wanted. Nothing actually said in the episode however leads you to believe Caine anticipated anything other than death.

As a fan however...I know we will see her again.

[Eric Paddon]

Nothing actually said in the episode however leads you to believe Caine anticipated anything other than death. .

True, but I think what might have happened there was Cain wanting to guard against the prospect of dying with shame on his record if he in effect were defying an official order. Cain's sense of honor has to be very high to regard that point as important.

I think most fans who see the Pegasus surviving would argue that Cain made a sudden jump to light speed to get out of the area after he destroyed the lead two baseships, and this would only have been the result of a last micron change of plans in his mind that perhaps even he never anticipated when he made that final communication to Adama.

[Senmut]

My take, for what it's worth, is that yes, Cain expected to die in battle with the BaseShips. I suspect he intended to destroy the two we saw go up, and then hit Baltar. he at least considered the possibility that he might survive the two, and make it to Balta's location. All his conversation with Tolan indicates that his main goal was Baltar's ship, and the other two were mere icing on the cake. I think what happened was that he did survive, made a short jump, but lost Baltar, who had skeedaddled. After that, alone and no doubt damaged, we know nothing else.

[launchcruiser7]

I don't have the exact quote and maybe some can provide it but Commander Caine fully anticipated not surviving the final battle. Did he go out in a blaze of glory? We aren't for sure. Did Commander Caine have an ego? He sure did, but Adama knew what Caine was doing was militarily needed. The quote I am referring to went something like:

Caine to Adama: "Don't make my LAST battle an act of mutiny. Give me your blessing."

That is not the words of a man who anticipated survival.

[launchcruiser7]

I don't have the exact quote and maybe some can provide it but Commander Caine fully anticipated not surviving the final battle. Did he go out in a blaze of glory? We aren't for sure. Did Commander Caine have an ego? He sure did, but Adama knew what Caine was doing was militarily needed. The quote I am referring to went something like:

Caine to Adama: "Don't make my LAST battle an act of mutiny. Give me your blessing."

That is not the words of a man who anticipated survival. :salute: remember cain left his people that were hurt with the fighter wing heading to the fleet i think he had one or two sqrdns left a battlestar is a mile long and can support over 3oo ships like when cain went in on those baseships it was three to one 300 to 900 i think he sent all the ships he could to the galactica the ones that could fly any way :thumbsup: :warrior: i heard that they wanted<THE WRITERS> to desory the pegasus but abc did not wount death on family hour dont woorry that old war daggit is causin all kinds of havic with the tinheads >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this is the launchcruiser hawkeye on outer fleet marker alpha :cylon: :alien: :cylon: :cylon: :cylon: :cylon: :cylon: :alien: needto launch fighters see you in the officers club back on the cerbeus have a cold one :milk: :milk: :milk: keepin :cake: it a family freindly web site :salute: :duck: :girl: one of the best what if shows of the bunch :P:

[Bombadil]

The fans want the Pegasus to survive and the writers wrote in a doubt at the end so they could use it later if they wanted.

As a fan...I know we will see her again.
I agree. And I hope Moore doesn't go with the Highlander tag line "In the end, there can be only one." Myself, I want to see the Pegasus rejoin the RTFleet. And I want a third battlestar to be found. And when they get to the real earth, I want an future earth technology than can build a fourth, and a fifth, battlestar. I want to see the humans recover, grow strong, and win. But that's just me.

[amberstar]

I agree. And I hope Moore doesn't go with the Highlander tag line "In the end, there can be only one." Myself, I want to see the Pegasus rejoin the RTFleet. And I want a third battlestar to be found. And when they get to the real earth, I want an future earth technology than can build a fourth, and a fifth, battlestar. I want to see the humans recover, grow strong, and win. But that's just me.

Me too Thomas! :D

[Oscar]

The Pegasus was to return in the opening episode of second season, but according to the plot synopsis, it had been infiltated with Cylon replicants (with all the original humans onboard, including Cain, presumably dead). The Galactica then destroys the Pegasus in a pitched battle. Sheba is killed in a dogfight.

It's a ridiculous storyline, but sadly it's true. The synopsis is on the Cylon Alliance website.

[bsg1fan1975]

I believed after watching the episode that the Pegasus was badly damaged and slipped away to repair and regroup after the battle. I still think she is out there making trouble for the scrap heap rejects!

[Eric Paddon]

Despite what others have said about minimizing the importance of that memo regarding a second season and that AWFUL storyline of replicants and Sheba getting killed off, it's revelation shattered 25 years of cherished beliefs about what Galactica could have been like if it had continued and for me personally now made me happy it hadn't continued. We would have gotten the equivalent of a "Space 1999" second season, totally at variance with what had previously been established.

[Senmut]

It amazes me that Larson, after creating this wonderful universe, could turn around and ruin it so. Was he on drugs??? Or did the NitWerk Suits exert some kind of pressure?

[Eric Paddon]

It amazes me that Larson, after creating this wonderful universe, could turn around and ruin it so. Was he on drugs??? Or did the NitWerk Suits exert some kind of pressure?

Elminating half the supporting cast and putting other characters into those roles (like making Boomer the new Wilker) smacks heavily of cost-cutting pressure that Larson was being told to respond to if Galactica had continued.

[kingfish]

I've never bought this argument, nor have I ever bought the argument that Cain sent all his vipers to the Galactica. I think his approach is that normal military strategy dictates that when warships go at each other in a "toe to toe slugging match" then Vipers are not used because they only run the risk of being destroyed in the crossfire between a basestar and a battlestar.

Thus, to me Cain's pilots chose to stay aboard the Pegasus where they were needed. Notice that when Starbuck made his offer to stay behinnd, it wasn't in the context of willing to lead vipers into battle, but "to see this through with him."

Plus, we have to remember Sheba's comment in WOTG about Bojay being "all that I've got left". I don't think she would have made this remark if other Pegasus pilots she knew and flew with transferred over as well.

So wherever the Pegasus is after the events of LL, she still has most of her Vipers and nearly all of her pilots from my standpoint.


IMHO a Battlestar has 4 Viper squadrons. Cain may have sent Silver Spar with Sheba and kept Bronze, Gold, and Copper in reserve.

[Crewmember]

Does everybody agree that the Pegasus has got to come back?

[Eric Paddon]

IMHO a Battlestar has 4 Viper squadrons. Cain may have sent Silver Spar with Sheba and kept Bronze, Gold, and Copper in reserve.

The whole Silver Spar squadron? That I'm not sure of because it seemed to me that in War Of The Gods, what happened was Adama creating a new squadron called Silver Spar for Bojay to command, and since it had established Galactica pilots in the mix like Jolly, I think that (along with Sheba's "Bojay's all I've got left" remark) still suggests that Sheba and Bojay are the only two Pegasus pilots aboard the Galactica.

[Captain Morgan]

HERE WE GO!! I figure this is what its all about ,Super Space Action!!
COMMANDER CAIN RULES!!I didn't trust him at first but hey "A MAN'S
GOTTA DO WHAT A MAN'S GOTTA DO".I liked the little power struggles
between CAIN and ADAMA.SHEBA is HOT I'm glad she came along!
When APOLLO & BOOMER pull there guns on THE PEGASUS for the
fuel I loved that, don't screw with those 2 they WILL shoot you.
STARBUCK hitting on SHEBA was great,He doesn't always get the girl?
To get to see a CYLON planet is very cool and attacking it in a black
leather 2 gun death mission is awsome!The 1 Battlestar & 2 Vipers VS
2 Baseships was a fantastic ending.It's a shame the show didn't go longer
so we could see the return of COMMANDER CAIN!

[kingfish]

HERE WE GO!! I figure this is what its all about ,Super Space Action!!
COMMANDER CAIN RULES!!I didn't trust him at first but hey "A MAN'S
GOTTA DO WHAT A MAN'S GOTTA DO".I liked the little power struggles
between CAIN and ADAMA.SHEBA is HOT I'm glad she came along!
When APOLLO & BOOMER pull there guns on THE PEGASUS for the
fuel I loved that, don't screw with those 2 they WILL shoot you.
STARBUCK hitting on SHEBA was great,He doesn't always get the girl?
To get to see a CYLON planet is very cool and attacking it in a black
leather 2 gun death mission is awsome!The 1 Battlestar & 2 Vipers VS
2 Baseships was a fantastic ending.It's a shame the show didn't go longer
so we could see the return of COMMANDER CAIN!


I thought like you CM. However my hopes were dashed when reading an artical at Susan Paxton's site. Cain was coming back in season two. The Return of the Pegasus was to be the first episode of season 2. However Cain and the Pegasus crew are now Cylon replicants. Lloyd was coming back as Cain. Sheba was going to die at the opening. Athena was going to have plastic surgery.

[kingfish]

The whole Silver Spar squadron? That I'm not sure of because it seemed to me that in War Of The Gods, what happened was Adama creating a new squadron called Silver Spar for Bojay to command, and since it had established Galactica pilots in the mix like Jolly, I think that (along with Sheba's "Bojay's all I've got left" remark) still suggests that Sheba and Bojay are the only two Pegasus pilots aboard the Galactica.



Silver Spar might have had many more members off screen. Remember Blue Squadron also had Barton and Ortega only featured in Murder on the Rising Star.

[Captain Morgan]

I thought like you CM. However my hopes were dashed when reading an artical at Susan Paxton's site. Cain was coming back in season two. The Return of the Pegasus was to be the first episode of season 2. However Cain and the Pegasus crew are now Cylon replicants. Lloyd was coming back as Cain. Sheba was going to die at the opening. Athena was going to have plastic surgery.

I would hope that the real CAIN would have still been alive and as for SHEBAS
death I wouldn't have liked that at all!Changing ATHENAS face would have been
a mistake as well I think the actress that played her is 1 of the most beautiful
on 70's TV!

[Eric Paddon]

The emergence of that memo on Susan's site actually shattered more than 20 plus years of illusions I'd had about what a second season of Galactica would have been like. We would have gotten the equivalent of a "Space 1999" second season that implausibly slaughtered half the supporting cast, changed the characters and ignored every bit of development over the course of the season.

If it came down to a question of killing off a female character, Athena was by that point a lot more dispensible than Sheba.

[Captain Morgan]

The emergence of that memo on Susan's site actually shattered more than 20 plus years of illusions I'd had about what a second season of Galactica would have been like. We would have gotten the equivalent of a "Space 1999" second season that implausibly slaughtered half the supporting cast, changed the characters and ignored every bit of development over the course of the season.

If it came down to a question of killing off a female character, Athena was by that point a lot more dispensible than Sheba.

Sounds like this out-line for the 2nd season is pretty bad still I would have liked
for it to happen just to see where the show would have ended up.If it kept going
maybe they would have gotten everything back in line by season 3 or 4 or 5?
But it seems they dropped the ball with GALACTICA 80 so who knows what would
have happened.

[justjackrandom]

I see Cain as more of a Montgomery-type character than a Patton or a Macarthur (the other US general he has been likened to, and one that fits better if you buy into it having to be an American). He is loved and adored as a hero by his men and his country, completely convinced in his military brilliance, and is a really mediocre military leader that just happens to be very lucky.

He totally believes in his own press, and is therefore convinced of his own invincibility. Given his luck, it is also possible that he did survive the clash with the two basestars…and then escaped the attack that was sure to come from the third (we always seem to forget Baltar’s basestar was in striking range at the beginning of the encounter, and could probably easily gotten back to within strike range once the Pegasus was damaged by the other two).

The end of the episode also shows both the two-dimensional thinking of the writers/directors/producers, and by extension the tactical stupidity of the Cylons. The baseships would have only had to maneuver just slightly out of alignment to free their firing arcs of the possibility of hitting each other.

Given that, this is an excellent episode, with only a few continuity errors. It gives gear-heads like me some great new information on Colonial and Cylon technology, gives us some information and background on the organization of the Colonial military and its branches, introduces us to great new characters, and provides for some really incredible character interplay.

While not my favorite, it ranks high on my list.

Bill :thumbsup:

[kingfish]

If we are talking in terms of the navy then Cain is the equivelent of Admiral William Bull Halsey who was a gambler and risk taker. Halsey received his wings at age 50. All C.O.'s of a carrier had to be able to fly. They said that Halsey was one of the worst pilots.

[KJ]

IMHO a Battlestar has 4 Viper squadrons. Cain may have sent Silver Spar with Sheba and kept Bronze, Gold, and Copper in reserve.

You mean, the same way The Galactica originally had 'Green' and 'Yellow' Squadrons before the show writers forgot about them? Maybe Cain had a 'Gold Spar Squadron' but Copper? heh.... :) ;)

Does raise another question about Battlestar squadrons doesn't it. i believe the people working in the costume department during the series run revealed, the various 'Collar Pins', 'Viper Helmet Ornaments', and Battlestar flag emblems of the other ships.

The Battlestars:

* "Prometheus"

* "Olympia"

* "Cerberus",

* "Solaria",

* "Pacifica",

* "Belloraphon",

* "Acropolis",

* "Triton"

And the destroyed "Atlantia".

Still, The Galactica where you believe it or not had more Vipers than before come, "The Hand of God". So unless there was an episode, that had a ship that mass produced Vipers! it's unlikely Sheba and Bo-Jay are the only ones from the Battlestar Pegasus's Silver Spar Squadron! They had 2 to 1 odds meaning they must have had at least had 150 Vipers to that on the Cylons; 300 plus Raiders.


Although, given a Battlestar's huge size. At full strength she must have over 200 to 250 Vipers at maximum. The Pegasus must have entergrated pilots survivors from, the "Battle of Molocay". Living Legend doen't state exactly how many Vipers the Pegasus has? But logically Cain did pick up other survivors of that famed battle! Thus adding to his beloved status, as a military hero, or worshiped like a "King" of kings.


He totally believes in his own press, and is therefore convinced of his own invincibility. Given his luck, it is also possible that he did survive the clash with the two basestars…and then escaped the attack that was sure to come from the third (we always seem to forget Baltar’s basestar was in striking range at the beginning of the encounter, and could probably easily gotten back to within strike range once the Pegasus was damaged by the other two).

Nice stuff there Justjackransom!

But not soon after in "Take The Celestra", we learn former Battlestar Commander Kronus, an iron fisted and very strict 'By-the-book' type of Commander. Destroyed "THREE" Cylon baseships. but at the loss of his own ship. While losing one's own ship isn't considered a victory, Kronus in an unchronicled tale destroyed three Cylon Basestars. If you take into account the Raiders in such a battle, thats over nine hundred plus any supporting ships, they might have had in such a recourse.

While Cain maybe a Patton or MacArthur type, Kronus may even better tactically than Cain. given he made a huge sacrifice to whatever ends, to halt the Cylons manuvers during the battle he was involved in.

Man, i love these debates, you can come at these episodes again and again to see various angles in the stories. And ask so many "what if" type questions.


KJ

[kingfish]

Missing scenes LL:

http://pp226.proboards25.com/index.cgi?board=nope&action=display&num=1088017758

[KJ]

Still the DVD hasn't got several of the scenes i've heard that were in the Telemovie version.

A scene involving the Pegasus, launching Vipers against Baltar's Raiders and showing that Sheba, Bo Jay and a unknown Pegasus Viper pilot going into battle.

Another i've heard of and read, said there was an extended scene between Cain and Cassiopea in the Pegasus's lifestation before the injured, Sheba is wheeled in. And the Telemovie version is said to have the completed and extended "Gamoray night assault" scenes by Apollo's Galactica Task Force team, i.e. Starbuck and Boomer following the Gold command Centurion to the control room and the extended conversations between the two I.L. series Cylons on Gamoray. But all with the completed sound effects and dialogues.

Not the "RAW" footage that is seen on the DVD version.

Same goes for some of the other deleted scenes that didn't make the DVD but were in the telemovie broadcasted versions, of other episodes.

KJ

:blink:

[KJ]

Like i've said, if there is another DVD re-release done "Robotech Director's cut" style. I'd like to see all the episodes with the deleted scenes reinserted, along with a 6.1 THX Mastered version of the surround sound and audio tracks. Isolated score track only.

Along with extras we didn't but should have got, first time round. Like screen tests of Don Johnson playing Starbuck's role, Terry Carter, and others. TV Spots, radio ads, Theatrical Trailers, All the episode scripts and unfilmed scripts, A photo gallery, pre-production concept artwork in full.

Since it's a DVD and not being aired, i can't see why not. As an extended cut, with all footage placed back in the episodes was done for Anime TV series such as Robotech and Neon Genesis. Why shouldn't a beloved live action, sci-fi series receive the same treatment!

Living Legend would come off as an even better sci-fi episode classic.

KJ

[kingfish]

Like i've said, if there is another DVD re-release done "Robotech Director's cut" style. I'd like to see all the episodes with the deleted scenes reinserted, along with a 6.1 THX Mastered version of the surround sound and audio tracks. Isolated score track only.

Along with extras we didn't but should have got, first time round. Like screen tests of Don Johnson playing Starbuck's role, Terry Carter, and others. TV Spots, radio ads, Theatrical Trailers, All the episode scripts and unfilmed scripts, A photo gallery, pre-production concept artwork in full.

Since it's a DVD and not being aired, i can't see why not. As an extended cut, with all footage placed back in the episodes was done for Anime TV series such as Robotech and Neon Genesis. Why shouldn't a beloved live action, sci-fi series receive the same treatment!

Living Legend would come off as an even better sci-fi episode classic.

KJ



Jason like minds think alike. :thumbsup:

[Eric Paddon]

"Still the DVD hasn't got several of the scenes i've heard that were in the Telemovie version. "

Not true. All of the Living Legend telemovie scenes are in the DVD supplement section. Only with LPOTG was there a missing telemovie scene in the DVD.

[justjackrandom]

It would be nice, but I’m not waiting for a re-release or a "director's cut". Working with the DVD material and the soundtracks, I just started ripping to “Lucas-ize” TOS. I plan to re-edit the entire series, inserting and moving scenes to include more of the good stuff they cut out, and (hopefully) fixing some of the continuity errors and disconnects that exist. My partner in crime and I are kicking around whether or not leave it in series format, or present it in miniseries format, in two-hour chunks. If we can find some help with digital animation (neither of us is too familiar, and I don’t want to take the time to learn) that doesn’t look too different from the footage originally shot, we want to add and clean up some FX shots, including some interiors such as hanger bay shots, etc.

Unfortunately, since I am doing this with copywrited material, distributing the product to other fans might prove problematic. Its something I’ll have to research more carefully.

This is a pre-curser project to a fan film that I’m hoping to kick into production sometime next year, which will be a continuation.

JJR

[KJ]

Hi Eric, as i stated though the ones on the DVD were somewhat "RAW" i'm sure the Telemovie version of LL had the completed scenes. Didn't mean they weren't on the disc though. Whoever did the DVD's extras should be thanked, but i'm saying they could have at least stored the footage in the right places is all, as the deleted scenes section on the DVD's also has bloopers/and unused alternate shots and unused takes.

It would be nice, but I’m not waiting for a re-release or a "director's cut". Working with the DVD material and the soundtracks, I just started ripping to “Lucas-ize” TOS. I plan to re-edit the entire series, inserting and moving scenes to include more of the good stuff they cut out, and (hopefully) fixing some of the continuity errors and disconnects that exist. My partner in crime and I are kicking around whether or not leave it in series format, or present it in miniseries format, in two-hour chunks. If we can find some help with digital animation (neither of us is too familiar, and I don’t want to take the time to learn) that doesn’t look too different from the footage originally shot, we want to add and clean up some FX shots, including some interiors such as hanger bay shots, etc.

Good on ya Justackransom!

Don't be too ashamed, as there are plenty of fan movies out there and more Battlestar Galactica ones the better! There are several The Pegasus survives movies out there yours would be no different. and several fan trailers and fan movies floating out on the net (for non-profit) DO EXIST so in that respect, yeah more power to you.

Watching the series again there are editing "flubs" i wish were corrected. Apollo and Boomer drawing there guns in LL and the earlier first meeting with Cain; should be as it was in Mission Galactica: The Cylon Attack not cut up and all. i only hope several of the old telemovies like LPOTG turn up.

That and Universal clearing up the old WOTG's Cloven Hooves footage mystery. How hard would it be for Larson to have said on the DVD's It just don't exist anymore?.

Ah well, all the best to ya doing your extended versions.

KJ

[BRG]

:salute: Brilliant! 5 out of 5. :)

An amazing episode, easily the best of the series so far. It introduced some great new characters, had some wonderful drama, and edge of your seat action! And to to crown it all, Lloyd Bridges as Commander Cain! :cool:

One thing I loved about having a guest star the calibur of Lloyd Bridges was that every other actor on the show raised there game and gave brilliant performances. This often happens when a big star appears on a show, and I'm pleased that when other top drawer stars appear later in the series(Astaire & McNee) the regulars again rise to the challange.

Adama & Cain's scenes together are excellent. These two great men are at odds how the think they should deal with the Cylons. Adama's instinct is to avoid conflict to defend the civillian fleet. While Cain want to get ripped into them. The beauty of this is that both men have a genuine belief that there way is correct, and the viewer can see the logic & problems with both stratigies. These scenes are played perfectly by Green & Bridges. Another scene that seemed real to me was the officers club scen between the Viper Pilots of the Galactica and the Pegasus. The fact that the Pegasus pilots, who run constand strike missions against the Cylons would look down there noses at the Galactica's pilots who mostly fly recon patroles or escort missions. Apollo gave a very good defence of his men, and put the cocky Silver Spar pilots in there place.

Sheba is a great character, and I was delighted that she became a regular for the rest of the series. And a very rare thing in Sci Fi, we have a strong female character that actually acts like a female! Most simmilar characters from other shows- Tasha Yar(TNG), Ivanova(B5), Kira(DS9) & Starbuck(new BSG) all act like men. They are angry, overly aggresive, hard drinking, hard shagging women who look like butch dykes. Sheba acts like a woman, dresses like a woman, and her ability as a warrior is never questioned by Apollo, Starbuck or Boomer. As a man, I find this type of character more appealing, and more believable. I wish other shows would take note!

If I can make one last point. I once read that Gene Roddenberry's first choice for Star Trek's captain was Lloyd Bridges. He was offered the part of Captain Robert April, but politely turned it down as TV sci fi at that point was "Monster of the Week" stuff that he didn't like. But I've always wondered what he would have been like in William Shatner's place, and his performance as Cain in this episode gives us a clear picture of what it would be like if Lloyd Bridges took the center seat of the Enterprise! :salute: :cool:
BRG

[Mustex]

I didn't like this episode all that much. Cain seemed a little flat to me. Also, I felt Adama had a bit too much screen time at the beggining, when they should have stayed focused on Starbuck and Apollo (they're the heros, and hence the archetypes we should relate to, Adama's the sage, he guides them, and should probably remain somewhat mysterious).

[kingfish]

Cain is the best character in BG history next to Iblis. Lloyd was a like a rabbit that Glen pulled out of his hat, the ratings topped the chart. Cain is like Patton. I loved the movie with George C. Scott and could have pictured him as Cain if he were alive today. "I will not be denied my victory over the Cylons."

[Mustex]

Cain is the best character in BG history next to Iblis. Lloyd was a like a rabbit that Glen pulled out of his hat, the ratings topped the chart. Cain is like Patton. I loved the movie with George C. Scott and could have pictured him as Cain if he were alive today. "I will not be denied my victory over the Cylons."

Yeah, but I guess I'm in the minority on not getting much from him (I also hate the movie "The Godfather", and think Copola mutilated Puzo's novel). Now Iblis...well I can't express how cool he was using even the vast vocabulary of borrowed words available in the English Language.

[julix]

I love Lloyd in this.... he had a twinkle in his eye! I also loved that he made starbuck squirm as far as Cassie was concerned. Kind of a nice change of pace.

[repcisg]

We must bear in mind the difference in the time between then and now.Back then there was no such thing as a bible for a series. Each week the writers would cook up a new idea or say to themselves wouldn’t it be neat if ---. And go from there.

Today the new series started with a complete season planned from the start, the second season is most likely already planned out. Doing it this way is far more efficient, than the old. This one reason so much of the special effects in the old series were recycled, there just wasn’t time to do a whole new sequence each week.

Glen had done some conceptualizing for the next season, insignia for several Battlestars had been made, and some thought given to the appearance of another Battlestar (the Prometheus) beyond its name and a shoulder patch I don’t think anyone got any further than that.

As Prometheus is a Greek mythological figure we can do pretty much what we want with it. And Jason is right, it is ludicrous to think the whole of the Colonial military would be in one place at one time. Encountering frontier guard units should be expected, and deep space explores should also be expected.

The number of potential stories is just mind boggling.

[Eric Paddon]

Mustex, I'm afraid I don't understand a couple of your points in your initial post. How is Cain "flat" when he manages to show quite a wide range of characteristics throughout the two parts? In a single episode, we saw a more multi-dimensional commander than we ever saw in say Captain Kirk or Commander Koenig throughout the entire run of their respective series.

Also, your point about "Adama having too much screen time at the beginning" makes little sense to me since Adama has no screen time at the beginning. He simply shows up during the course of his normal duties and there is nothing out of character for him to be on the bridge conferring with his executive officer about a fuel shortage situation.

[Gemini1999]

I always find that "Living Legend" is one of the most watchable episodes of TOS. I never tire of this one... I think that Lloyd Bridges did a wonderful job as Commander Cain - he wasn't a young guy, but he did have that "spark of life" to him. Lloyd Bridges still had that spark later on - you should see him play the part of Ted Danson's father in "Cousins" with Isabella Rosselini.

It was understandable how Cain's crew felt about him - they'd been fighting the Cylons successfully on their own for some time longer than the Galactica had been running from them. I really felt for Cain when Adama pulled rank on him - I know that Adama was the commander of the Fleet, but that fleet was comprised largely of refugees. I never really understood how Adama managed that one.

I think the only scene that really bugged me was when Cain knowingly destroyed the two Cylon tankers. just so they would have to go for the fuel depot at Gamoray. I think along with the Cylon tankers, he destroyed a bit of his credibility with Apollo and even Sheba.

Another thing I found interesting was the fact that Sheba was a combat pilot. In "Lost Planet of the Gods", they made it sound like there weren't any female warriors in the fleet. I always wonder how Sheba got by them.....!

I love this episode!

Best,
Bryan

[BST]

Most likely, Adama received his commission, as Commander, before Cain. I think that would make him ranking officer.

:)

[Eric Paddon]

Most likely, Adama received his commission, as Commander, before Cain. I think that would make him ranking officer.
:)

Yes, the original novelization said that was the reason, and I also expanded on that in my own adaptation by noting that as President of the Council, Adama as de jure head of the Colonial Nation would also have the authority to relieve Cain, who clearly was not a member of the Council the way Adama was part of the military and governing civil authority prior to the Holocaust.

[Gemini1999]

Yes, the original novelization said that was the reason, and I also expanded on that in my own adaptation by noting that as President of the Council, Adama as de jure head of the Colonial Nation would also have the authority to relieve Cain, who clearly was not a member of the Council the way Adama was part of the military and governing civil authority prior to the Holocaust.

Eric -

Thanks for the reminder on the novelization material. It's been a long time since I read it. I also forgot that Adama was the acting president of the Council of the Twelve. The only on-screen reason that was given that I can recall (without re-watching) was Apollo stating that Adama was the Fleet Commander.

On a side note: I would also like to say that I've just started reading the Classic Galactica novels. I finished "Saga" and moved on to "Gun on Ice Planet Zero" as they are in the same book. I must say that Robert Thurston did a terrific job novelizing and fleshing out the stories. The stories go much deeper into the characters and the situations from the original scripts. I can't wait to buy the next one!

Best,
Bryan

[BST]

You're right. I completely forgot that Adama was "wearing two hats" - one civilian and one military.

[Eric Paddon]

Yes, the "Adama is the Fleet Commander" is the only direct reference to the command structure in the episode. I think this is one case where taking the series as a whole, it becomes easier to infer certain points and the fact that Cain always appears in a warrior's uniform and not the more formal command uniform that Adama always wears, would also serve as a good subliminal indicator of how in the overall scheme of the Colonial Command structure, Cain would place lower than Adama.

The one underlying point regarding Cain's motives that I don't think came out in the episode or the novelization has to do with the matter of why Cain is determined to keep fighting at this point.

Cain is described as the greatest warrior in the Fleet's history. And just think of what Cain has to deal with with the realization that he wasn't there to do anything about the destruction of the Colonies? That fact alone has to weigh heavily on his conscience, because no doubt his own sense of confidence in his ability would make him think that if he had been there, he might have made the difference.

So Cain's determination to keep fighting is best seen not through the too narrow prism of mad egomania, but with the much deeper subtext of guilt that his decision to not return home after the Battle of Molocay may have been the most tragic mistake of his life. Taking out the baseships to try and give Adama and his Fleet his idea of long-term security, is thus at this point the only way he can think of to make up for that, and if he isn't successful in taking them all out and survives, he then would consider it an obligation to keep tying the Cylons down and hopefully buy Adama more long-term security.

Just my take on this very fascinating character.

[julix]

Bryan,
I am impressed yet again......."cousins" is a great film, one of my all time favorite(non sci-fi) films. And Lloyd Bridges shines in this movie!!!!!

[Haveke]

One of the best Battlestar Galactia epsiodes ever!! Cain is Amazing!!
Its nice to see the different type Command styles between Adama & Cain...

Even after all these years... I still enjoy rewatching this episode over & over...


:colonial:

[thomas7g]

Welcome to the Fleet Haveke!

:salute:

[justjackrandom]

Yes, the "Adama is the Fleet Commander" is the only direct reference to the command structure in the episode. I think this is one case where taking the series as a whole, it becomes easier to infer certain points and the fact that Cain always appears in a warrior's uniform and not the more formal command uniform that Adama always wears, would also serve as a good subliminal indicator of how in the overall scheme of the Colonial Command structure, Cain would place lower than Adama.

I believe the quoted position was "Commander-in-Chief", which I would equate to either the head of the JCS, or perhaps a military Secretary of Defense, if we model the Council as the U.S. cabinet with actual governing power. The inference in Apollo’s statement is that Adama is legitimately where the buck stops in the chain of command, and probably was in that position before the Pegasus was lost, as no one disputes his claim.


The one underlying point regarding Cain's motives that I don't think came out in the episode or the novelization has to do with the matter of why Cain is determined to keep fighting at this point.

Cain is described as the greatest warrior in the Fleet's history. And just think of what Cain has to deal with with the realization that he wasn't there to do anything about the destruction of the Colonies? That fact alone has to weigh heavily on his conscience, because no doubt his own sense of confidence in his ability would make him think that if he had been there, he might have made the difference.

So Cain's determination to keep fighting is best seen not through the too narrow prism of mad egomania, but with the much deeper subtext of guilt that his decision to not return home after the Battle of Molocay may have been the most tragic mistake of his life. Taking out the baseships to try and give Adama and his Fleet his idea of long-term security, is thus at this point the only way he can think of to make up for that, and if he isn't successful in taking them all out and survives, he then would consider it an obligation to keep tying the Cylons down and hopefully buy Adama more long-term security.

Just my take on this very fascinating character.

I agree that this didn't come out in the episode... It would be nice to see the subtext that you describe, but nowhere is it evident in LB's performance that this sense of guilt is what is driving him. While the character was somewhat patterned on Patton, I tend to see more of McArthur in Cain…and indeed, Adama’s removal of Cain from command mirror’s Truman’s “firing” of McArthur in Korea.

Cain is certainly portrayed as a sound tactician, but to me, much like McArthur, (and others in WWII, such as Montgomery), Cain stands more as a man who has been very lucky, and whose publicity has been fed by – and in turn has fed – his enormous ego.

This makes him no less fascinating...just more flawed.

my tuppence...

JJR

[Eric Paddon]

I believe the quoted position was "Commander-in-Chief",

No, in the confrontation scene with the Pegasus warriors, Apollo's exact words are "Adama is the Fleet Commander!". But I do think the other point you make about how that position would correlate to something lower than his higher position of President of the Council is correct.


I agree that this didn't come out in the episode... It would be nice to see the subtext that you describe, but nowhere is it evident in LB's performance that this sense of guilt is what is driving him.

I think there is just one hint of it though in Part 2 when Apollo on the bridge angrily confronts him with his "Are you thinking of your place in history? The legend of Commander Cain?" At least from Apollo's standpoint, he could easily be intimating how from the history books standpoint, Cain would have a tarnished legacy if he hadn't been there when he was most needed and how right now what he needs more than anything is a chance to make up for that. The look on Cain's face as Apollo poses that challenge and then his abrupt, "You're out of line, Captain." does indicate that at the very least Apollo's question does hit a raw nerve of sorts.

[Senmut]

Another thing I found interesting was the fact that Sheba was a combat pilot. In "Lost Planet of the Gods", they made it sound like there weren't any female warriors in the fleet. I always wonder how Sheba got by them.....!



Female, yes. There is Athena and Rigel in the pilot film. Pilots, yes. Athena flies Adama's shuttle back from the meeting on the Atlantia. She's just not rated on a Viper, hence her need to train in one. After all, Apollo says they lost alot of qualified people at Carillon. Sheba may have served on the Pegasus, or some other ship in the 5th Fleet in another capacity, and then qualified as a pilot, to fill a gap. I would gather that most pilots were men as a matter of course, and the trainees in LPOTG happened to be female due to conditions.
And the execs at ABC. :D

[julix]

good points Senmut!.....especially about the execs :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

[bsg1fan1975]

maybe Sheba got into the Academy because of Cain. We really do not know how she became a viper pilot, but it is a good thing to speculate on it.

[Eric Paddon]

If I ever redid LPOTG, I think there could be a way to eliminate that sexist undertone of female viper pilots being such an incomprehensible concept without harming the integrity of the overall story, because as these last posts indicate that whole LPOTG attitude leads to these kinds of speculations about Sheba's background and how she could have risen to her position aboard the Pegasus.

Indeed, the fact that she is so easily accepted by everyone as an equal among warriors once she is introduced certainly shows how the writers had realized their mistake from earlier in the season with LPOTG, and I've always liked to think that she just made her way up without any special considerations because the Galactica universe was more enlightened than the LPOTG scenes indicated.

[KJ]

While Living Legend DID give us a war hero "Cain" who loved to wage head to head frontline combat conflicts with Cylons. Than Commander Adama's more deserved defensive tactics, Cain and the crew of the Battlestar Pegasus could have gotten their own spin off series or mini arc within the Original Battlestar Galactica series. As Glen Larson himself pondered back in Sci-fi Universe Magazine (circa June 1995)

To go off and cover adventures with just him. would have been very interesting to do so. Pity the TOS show or the Marvel Comic books based on Galactica weren't around long enough, for such a thing to happen.

Every fan would love to see how Cain survived the encounter with two Cylon Baseships in live action. And what eactly happened afterwards. The thought of Cain trying along with his crew of the Pegasus to pin down the Cylon Empire all by themselves is foolish on Cain's part though. Gamoray maybe, one Cylon outpost sure! but the Cylon Empire itself?! Nah even Cain is smarter than that. Colonial Battlestars in a fleet at Cimtar were destroyed by hordes of Cylon Raiders. And Cain lost for whatever reasons at "Molocay" He no longer has a fleet. Hell to even challenge the might of the Cylon Empire in full he'd need at least an "Armada" which is a grand = Fleet of "fleets" of starships meant and prepared for an all out war, with the Cylons.

The series may have had it's faults with several Cylons Centurions getting taken out by one or two colonial guys with less fire power but rack up a huge centurion tin can count by episodes end? Should any future stories take up the continuing adventures of Commander Cain and the Pegasus, i'd like to see plenty of great tales around how Cain plans on keeping his crew and ship in one piece, while facing new obstacles and challenges within/ near the old boundries where the colonials faced the Cylon Empire, the Cyrannus galaxy.

Despite it's faults Richard Hatch's Warhawk, it had a great concept didn't it. Cain building new warships and having an entire planet's resources at his command. Plotting and planning, getting his own personal milita together, rather than just engaging in battles with Cylon forces without really crippling them at all. Just a minor 'bug' annoyance. While the Cylons still went about conquering?!

Perhaps Cain would have journeyed into the black void to where (thats if he too knew) Kobol was, and unearthed some 'ancient arcane' Kobollian technology that the crew of the Galactica missed out on while there and gathered up his own personal army from several dozen worlds, maybe former allies of the colonials during the 1.000 year war thats wants some payback on the Cylons. And after many adventures made their glorious counterstrike against the Empire.


Well in any case, another Battlestar with a different Commander would demand a new approach to telling the stories within the same universe wouldn't it? To touch on a broad spectum of tales but keeping it all original. Now there is a real challenge. Setting apart the two ships, doing different sets of adventures for them having Cain's crew like bunch of adventurers. Getting into all kinds of wild action missions, adventures and enjoying it. While the Galactica crew comes across more like a group of 'Nomads'. Trying to survive by any means while making a journey across unknown space. But making sure it all feels similar yet each ship with its characters are set in certain situations and adapting to them while progressing with an ongoing story arc leading to something later on in the future, but making the most of the "steps"* taken during the journey! (* i.e. the episodes per season!)

Had the series gone on, i'd like to have seen both ships get to Earth (either together or seperately) and continue the same feeling of allies working together, sharing technology, fighting side by side, playing catch up with family issues, friends and the like. The same or similar kind of epic "Wow" two Battlestars and whats gonna happen feeling from the two forces hooking up once more.


Who would you side with? What would happen if you were on Cain's ship lost for all those years. And what would you say to your fellow colonials once you caught up again? What could Cain and co offer once he caught up with the Galactica, or would he stay on his own ship feeling like a King and not take orders from Adama or the council, remember Cain does disobey orders if he feels things are done best under his comand and his way.

Ah the possibilities!

KJ

[kingfish]

Warhawk is the best of the Hatch novels.

[Senmut]

If I ever redid LPOTG, I think there could be a way to eliminate that sexist undertone of female viper pilots being such an incomprehensible concept without harming the integrity of the overall story, because as these last posts indicate that whole LPOTG attitude leads to these kinds of speculations about Sheba's background and how she could have risen to her position aboard the Pegasus.

Indeed, the fact that she is so easily accepted by everyone as an equal among warriors once she is introduced certainly shows how the writers had realized their mistake from earlier in the season with LPOTG, and I've always liked to think that she just made her way up without any special considerations because the Galactica universe was more enlightened than the LPOTG scenes indicated.


I honestly don't see it as sexism, EP. More like Israel, where women serve, not out of a sense of "equality", but because it is needed. After all, there are only so many Colonials, and about 27 gazillion Cylons. Since we saw no women Viper pilots in the pilot film, they might well have seemed a tad outre to the new trainees, as well as the surviving old hands who had spent most of their tour on the Galactica. Since Athena flies a shuttle, women pilots are NOT an anomoly, and even being on a Battlestar is hardly a non-combat role.
We also know little of Colonial mores on the relationships between men and women, and what is considered "proper" behavior. I think we need to guard against seeing everything throuigh the lens of modernity, and what is or isn't considered acceptable now, when looking at an "alien" culture.

[KJ]

Warhawk is the best of the Hatch novels.



Maybe but it sure is bloody hard to get those paperback versions?

Wonder what else Richard Hatch has in store in his last two books, and who he is doing them with? I kind of wonder why he hasn't let other writers come in and do books within his framework of stories as well. If he did we could get several books out a year and have plenty more adventures within the frame work of his saga.

Including more of Commander Cain and the Pegasus. Barring events from BG:Resurrection for those of you in the know?* Perhaps inbetween those 25 or so yahrens before he met the Galactica again.

( ;) *)

Perhaps after he is done he will allow other to continue his work? Even if the Galactica were to find Earth in his novels, it still won't be the end of Battlestar Galactica adventures. (i doubt he gonna take them directly to Earth anyways?)

I'd love to see Richard hook up with several known and unknown BG fanfic writers and get their work in publication to boot. That would be beautiful.

Imagine the "Pegasus Chronicles" from whats-her-name? i'm sure that could be a bestseller. Hatch would listen wouldn't he? Giving the loyal fans that have backed BG for years, a major boost in the form getting their work out there in novels, would be some form of continution alright!

Hell he could open a few doors even, who knows?

No one would object to reading more Commander Cain stories* aboard the Pegasus (or his successor/ XO Colonel Tolan*) now would they.

KJ

:)

[Eric Paddon]

To go off and cover adventures with just him. would have been very interesting to do so. Pity the TOS show or the Marvel Comic books based on Galactica weren't around long enough, for such a thing to happen.

Never would have happened with the comic book series because Marvel was prohibited from doing any episode adaptation after LPOTG, which meant all characters and story situations that took place after LPOTG were off-limits with them. No Cain, no Sheba, no Iblis. (Probably the biggest of many reasons why that series had a quick demise)


"i'd like to see plenty of great tales around how Cain plans on keeping his crew and ship in one piece, while facing new obstacles and challenges within/ near the old boundries where the colonials faced the Cylon Empire, the Cyrannus galaxy."

I think we're actually in agreement on my point about Cain wanting to make things difficult for the Cylons, but that the difference is more in the details.

I don't see Cain heading for Earth, because his nature would be of the kind to disbelieve Adama's vision that searching for Earth is the key to human survival. He would be more inclined to stay behind and look for what he would consider more "practical"ways of trying to win the war against the Cylons. It would take a very big change in his thinking at the time of LL to get him to do otherwise IMO.


"I'd love to see Richard hook up with several known and unknown BG fanfic writers and get their work in publication to boot. That would be beautiful."

Senmut, Maggie Hutchison and myself (all of us the authors of the ongoing "Second Season" project which is at 10 stories and counting) are available any time. :D

[Eric Paddon]

A milestone! An episode review thread has at last gone into triple digits. :)

[Senmut]

And, hopefully, will go into quadruples!

[kingfish]

Maybe but it sure is bloody hard to get those paperback versions?

Wonder what else Richard Hatch has in store in his last two books, and who he is doing them with? I kind of wonder why he hasn't let other writers come in and do books within his framework of stories as well. If he did we could get several books out a year and have plenty more adventures within the frame work of his saga.

Including more of Commander Cain and the Pegasus. Barring events from BG:Resurrection for those of you in the know?* Perhaps inbetween those 25 or so yahrens before he met the Galactica again.

( ;) *)

Perhaps after he is done he will allow other to continue his work? Even if the Galactica were to find Earth in his novels, it still won't be the end of Battlestar Galactica adventures. (i doubt he gonna take them directly to Earth anyways?)

I'd love to see Richard hook up with several known and unknown BG fanfic writers and get their work in publication to boot. That would be beautiful.

Imagine the "Pegasus Chronicles" from whats-her-name? i'm sure that could be a bestseller. Hatch would listen wouldn't he? Giving the loyal fans that have backed BG for years, a major boost in the form getting their work out there in novels, would be some form of continution alright!

Hell he could open a few doors even, who knows?

No one would object to reading more Commander Cain stories* aboard the Pegasus (or his successor/ XO Colonel Tolan*) now would they.

KJ





:)

Jason, Hatch has Brad Linaweaver writing them as seen from my Paradis review:

http://www.colonialfleets.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8579




This guy wouldn't know BG if it bit him. Most of the novel is dribble with the characters acting like mirror images ie Mirror Mirror. The author seems to like the phrase, "old bastard." It is throughout the book. If Uni is approving this they want to kill os BG. :thumbdown

[peter noble]

Never would have happened with the comic book series because Marvel was prohibited from doing any episode adaptation after LPOTG, which meant all characters and story situations that took place after LPOTG were off-limits with them. No Cain, no Sheba, no Iblis. (Probably the biggest of many reasons why that series had a quick demise)

I think the Marvel series lasted for two years and 22 issues, I don't think the other two series lasted that long.

Peter

[Eric Paddon]

I think the Marvel series lasted for two years and 22 issues, I don't think the other two series lasted that long.
Peter

Yes, 23 issues for Marvel although most of it was bogged down in that interminable "Memory Machine" storyline. Other flaws besides the absence of Sheba, Cain, Iblis etc. were the total disappearance of Baltar after issue #6 and a flashback scene in issue #7 (ultimately the whole Marvel storyline would have us think that Lucifer left Baltar for dead on Kobol!), drawing Sire Uri as a clone of the Spiderman/Daredevil villain the Kingpin (indeed it's this depiction that has often confused many a fanfic author into falsely thinking Uri was a fat slug of the Jabba type, whereas Ray Milland was nothing like that at all!) etc.

Max Press I think matched Marvel in terms of number of issues put out when you combine all of their different miniseries together. The subsequent comics series (I keep forgetting the company name) lasted the shortest.

[kingfish]

Eric the comics are being reissued in January and March:

January- saga of A Star World.

March-The memory machine.

[peter noble]

The Living Legend

http://img67.exs.cx/img67/1615/SHEBA.jpg

Original Airdate Part 1: November 26, 1978

Writer: Glen A. Larson.

Director: Vince Edwards.

Guest Cast: Lloyd Bridges (Cain), Rod Haase (Tolan).

While on patrol, Apollo and Starbuck discover the missing Battlestar Pegasus under the command of the military genius Cain. Although now under the protection of two Battlestars, the fleet is stopped dead in space do to a critical fuel shortage. To obtain the necessary supplies, Cain and Adama plan a daring raid on a nearby Cylon command base. One of Galactica’s most popular episodes, The Living Legend was re-edited with Fire in Space and released theatrically overseas.

http://img72.exs.cx/img72/5788/LLSTRIP1.jpg

“What I had in mind was Eisenhower and Patton,” reveals Larson. “Patton was blood and guts and Cain was really our Patton in space. In some ways we were hitting a production and theoretical stride in that one. There is a show that gave us a chance to provide pretty good character [development] with a pretty good space dynamic. I would have like to have been able to do more shows like that.”

Concerned about protecting the fleet, Adama opposes Cain’s aggressive military campaign against the Cylons. Although the episode featured a series of impressive action sequences, director Vince Edwards favored the drama inherent in the conflict of wills between Adama and Cain. “The relationship,” he says, “between these two powerful men – the conflict between these two great leaders getting together – was what I liked.”

Edwards also wanted to add a little more mobility to Baltar (John Colicos). "He said he wanted to get me off that bloody chair," recalls Colicos, "of course, they polished the floor so tremendously that I nearly fell on my ass. But I welcomed anything that got me off climbing that ladder because it was difficult to have a dynamic performance when you are rooted literally to a spot."

http://img78.exs.cx/img78/2232/LLSTRIP2.jpg

"He's a machiavellian kind of character," said Edwards of Baltar, "he is almost like a non-human character; a guy that portrays something that might be a villain of the future, that kind of look, that kind of sound. I tried to give him an inhuman quality because he had these robots around him."

http://img88.exs.cx/img88/3185/BALTARTBC.jpg

[KJ]

Nice stuff Peter 26 years and still the episode is that incredible. Those pics should inspire Justjackransom further, to do his Living Legend or whole BG: Extended Special Edition a little faster.

It would be nice, but I’m not waiting for a re-release or a "director's cut". Working with the DVD material and the soundtracks, I just started ripping to “Lucas-ize” TOS. I plan to re-edit the entire series, inserting and moving scenes to include more of the good stuff they cut out, and (hopefully) fixing some of the continuity errors and disconnects that exist. My partner in crime and I are kicking around whether or not leave it in series format, or present it in miniseries format, in two-hour chunks. If we can find some help with digital animation (neither of us is too familiar, and I don’t want to take the time to learn) that doesn’t look too different from the footage originally shot, we want to add and clean up some FX shots, including some interiors such as hanger bay shots, etc.


Hell you could put up some screen captures of the deleted scenes from the DVD. A little extention of this episode, even expressed with pictures would remind fans of how great this episode really is.

Even add those rare FX shots from Mission Galactica?

KJ

[Aeneas]

Female, yes. There is Athena and Rigel in the pilot film. Pilots, yes. Athena flies Adama's shuttle back from the meeting on the Atlantia. She's just not rated on a Viper, hence her need to train in one. After all, Apollo says they lost alot of qualified people at Carillon. Sheba may have served on the Pegasus, or some other ship in the 5th Fleet in another capacity, and then qualified as a pilot, to fill a gap. I would gather that most pilots were men as a matter of course, and the trainees in LPOTG happened to be female due to conditions.
And the execs at ABC. :D


(Latecomer, I know....)


Didn't somebody address this issue in a fanfic once? The scenario went like this....

Initially, there were male and female Warriors. But by the time the War became a stalemate and stretched into a millenia-long war of attrition, Colonial doctrine(or tradition) dictated that it might be more prudent to keep the women out of the front line assignments(so why have 'em serve in the fleet at all if this is the mindset :?: )like fighter pilot or ground pounder because of their reproductive worth as childbearers(akin to the ancient Spartans and our own past inequalities). I guess the rationale was that the Colonials realized that they were up against an almost inexhaustable supply of machine warriors who could be replaced via automated/industrial means whilst por homo-sapiens were forced to replace their losses the old fashioned way--it was set up as a backdrop to the whole Ravishol/cloning process as an alternative. An interesting way to write around an obviously dated concept in TOS.

[Mustex]

Mustex, I'm afraid I don't understand a couple of your points in your initial post. How is Cain "flat" when he manages to show quite a wide range of characteristics throughout the two parts? In a single episode, we saw a more multi-dimensional commander than we ever saw in say Captain Kirk or Commander Koenig throughout the entire run of their respective series.

Also, your point about "Adama having too much screen time at the beginning" makes little sense to me since Adama has no screen time at the beginning. He simply shows up during the course of his normal duties and there is nothing out of character for him to be on the bridge conferring with his executive officer about a fuel shortage situation.

It wasn't so much that he didn't have many characteristics, but rather that the actor didn't convince of those characteristics. Also, maybe it wasn't quite at the beggining, but when Adama met Cain it seemed a bit too strung-out.

[KJ]

Looking back i wish several more scenes were there to flesh out the story a little more.

What if we had?

1) Cain or Sheba relating the tale of the Battle of Molocay with *flashbacks* added, showing the fifth fleet battling Cylons. Maybe showing some of Cain's past history with yet another hologram viewing i.e. recorded logs stored away etc. We'd get a look at other Battlestars this way and see how Cain survived and dealt with this crushing blow to his ego.

2) The Council of Twelve meeting Commander Cain. Perhaps another subplot showing how the Council takes a liking to Cain rather than Adama and may plot to replace him with Cain at some point in the future? Even if he is a warmongeror, they are blinded by him being the famous Living Legend and warm up to him. We could see a quick montage of scenes seeing Cain touring the fleet seeing whats left of humanity and what he has to fight for.

Could explain his actions later on trying to save the fleet from three baseships, with the images of the civilians in his head making him fight for them rather than himself.

3) More of the Pegasus. maybe she has subtle differences besides the similar look of her and the Galactica on the outside.

4) More Cylon civilians, the flip side to the colonials in the fleet. what exactly do Cylon civilians do.

5) Delphian Empire on Gamoray. What do they look like? Maybe it could have been an idea to have Boomer and Starbuck find some prisoner cells during the fuel raid and rescue some Delphians who could have informed the colonials more about the Cylons and their activities. They also could have remained on the Pegasus after she disappeared?! (what would that do for fanfic writers eh?)

6) Gold Spar, Bronze Spar squadrons? If Cain saved survivors of the fifth fleet what other squadrons of Vipers are there besides Silver Spar on the Pegasus? only fanfiction alludes to gold and other colours due to the colour name of Silver Spar squadron?

Add all that in a few more minutes and *voila* a bit more back bone eh?

Anyone got other ideas to add?

Living Legend: The Special Edition!

KJ

[kingfish]

Jason, the pegasus is older than the galactica.

Starbuck: It looks like spit is holding her together- LL The Novelization.


This episode was the most expensive of the series for various reasons. The SFX were above par.

[Eric Paddon]

It wasn't so much that he didn't have many characteristics, but rather that the actor didn't convince of those characteristics. Also, maybe it wasn't quite at the beggining, but when Adama met Cain it seemed a bit too strung-out.

Well, I can't think of any actor other than Lloyd Bridges who could have done a better job in the part. As far as the Adama-Cain scene you talk about, all it did was set up the needed scene in which two commanders need to exchange information and also set us up to the underlying conflict in philosophies that the two represent. It's more important to know the difference between Adama and Cain in those repsects, then it is to have more scenes of Starbuck and Apollo for the sake of it.

[KJ]

Jason, the pegasus is older than the galactica.

Starbuck: It looks like spit is holding her together- LL The Novelization.



Yes yes, i know that i have the novel. And i've already stated that in my earlier post? Dude stop repeating what been said already.

I just made a list of things i wish were in the episode. I wondered if anyone also had a list of things they too wish transpired in LL that could have added greatly to the events within the episode itself.

KJ

[Eric Paddon]

I just made a list of things i wish were in the episode. I wondered if anyone also had a list of things they too wish transpired in LL that could have added greatly to the events within the episode itself. KJ

Well, this is a list of some of what I came up with when it was time for me to an expanded adaptation on the fanfic site.

#1-Expand further on the background regarding the death of Cain's wife, and the circumstances regarding his entering a relationship with Cassiopeia and Sheba's anger over this. The novelization gives a good launching point by mentioning that Sheba strongly resembles her mother (which if you extrapolate further means that June Lockhart is the only one who could play her in a flashback!) and that Cain just couldn't open up to his daughter because she reminded him too much of his wife, and needed comfort from an outsider.

#2-Exactly how did Imperious Leader arrive on Gomorrah, and if by baseship, how was it rendered unusable for the battle against the Pegasus and Galactica? I see his baseship actually landing on the planet perhaps being moored to some kind of structure the way a dirigible is tied to a mooring mast, and that the attack on the planet knocked it off its moorings and thus rendered it unusable for the subsequent battle.

#3-Show a little bit more of Apollo developing an instinctive attraction to Sheba and restraining himself out of equally instinctive loyalty to Serina's memory.

[Eric Paddon]

"5) Delphian Empire on Gamoray. What do they look like? Maybe it could have been an idea to have Boomer and Starbuck find some prisoner cells during the fuel raid and rescue some Delphians who could have informed the colonials more about the Cylons and their activities. They also could have remained on the Pegasus after she disappeared?! (what would that do for fanfic writers eh?) "

There is one thing about the Delphians that I think can be extrapolated from this and subsequent episodes.

#1-Their civilization represents the far limits of known charted space from a Colonial standpoint. The planet Gomorrah (or Gamoray, whichever one prefers) is the last planet in the series actually known by name to the Colonials, and after that every new planet they come across in subsequent episodes represents something completely unknown to them. That the Delphians are at the very edge can be further gleaned from Adama being somewhat surprised at first to realize they're close to them, and thus it isn't a system instinctively familiar to most people.

#2-The Delphians may not have been the kind of civilization who believed in deep space travel of their own, at least certainly not going beyond their system as evidenced by the lack of what the Galactica comes across in subsequent episodes until "Greetings From Earth".

Whatever they look like is something the imagination can run with in all kinds of different directions!

[Senmut]

(Latecomer, I know....)


Didn't somebody address this issue in a fanfic once? The scenario went like this....

Initially, there were male and female Warriors. But by the time the War became a stalemate and stretched into a millenia-long war of attrition, Colonial doctrine(or tradition) dictated that it might be more prudent to keep the women out of the front line assignments(so why have 'em serve in the fleet at all if this is the mindset :?: )like fighter pilot or ground pounder because of their reproductive worth as childbearers(akin to the ancient Spartans and our own past inequalities). I guess the rationale was that the Colonials realized that they were up against an almost inexhaustable supply of machine warriors who could be replaced via automated/industrial means whilst por homo-sapiens were forced to replace their losses the old fashioned way--it was set up as a backdrop to the whole Ravishol/cloning process as an alternative. An interesting way to write around an obviously dated concept in TOS.






"our own past inequalities"..."an obviously dated concept"

As I stated in an earlier ost here, we need to guard against interpretin g everything in BSG through the lens of current thinking and attitudes. We have little data on Colonial mores re the relations between the sexes. We should be careful in making blanket statements.

[Dawg]

It is my own observation that the use of female fighter pilots - combat pilots - came out of necessity during LPOG. It was highly unusual, since the only pilots available when the entire compliment of fighter pilots went down were uniformly female shuttle pilots - and that entire compliment of fighter pilots were male.

This is reflective of our own prohibition against women in any kind of combat role.

However, when push came to shove the woment proved to be just as effective as the men in combat situations.

Funny how that works. And funny how, 30 years later, we're seeing women in harms way during combat operations. In another 30 years women combat pilots will be commonplace.

As I stated in an earlier ost here, we need to guard against interpretin g everything in BSG through the lens of current thinking and attitudes.

Exactly right, and this points that out perfectly.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Senmut]

Exactly right, and this points that out perfectly.



How so?

[Dawg]

In 1978, the mere thought of women in combat was not considered. They were fine for support jobs - ferrying planes, etc. - but not in harms' way.

In 2004, we're very much aware of the fact Israeli women fight alongside the men, and in our own armed forces there are women flying helicopters and performing other duties in the line of fire (or otherwise in harm's way).

If you look at LPOG from the 2004 viewpoint, you have to wonder why it's so dramatic to have female combat pilots.

If you look at it from the 1978 viewpoint, it was very forward thinking and somewhat risky.

See?

;)

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Darth Marley]

When the WACS were formed, men did not think women pilots could "handle" flying four engine cargo planes.

[Senmut]

In 1978, the mere thought of women in combat was not considered. They were fine for support jobs - ferrying planes, etc. - but not in harms' way.

In 2004, we're very much aware of the fact Israeli women fight alongside the men, and in our own armed forces there are women flying helicopters and performing other duties in the line of fire (or otherwise in harm's way).

If you look at LPOG from the 2004 viewpoint, you have to wonder why it's so dramatic to have female combat pilots.

If you look at it from the 1978 viewpoint, it was very forward thinking and somewhat risky.

See?

;)



Yes. I was being sarcastic. I must also confess to being an old-fashioned bogoted patriarchalist sexist pig. No, I'm not kidding. I really said that. I get annoyed at people always referring to our past as limited, backwards, wrong, or whatever.
"Forward looking...'
I see. Change is always "forward". How could I have missed that????

"Risky" Yes. And sad.

And I could do without the condescension, Dawg.

See?

[Dawg]

I was not being condescending. I was responding to what I thought was a semi-serious question and tried to be a little humorous in the process.

After so long, Senmut, I thought you knew me better than that.

I am
Dawg
:warrior:

[Aeneas]

"our own past inequalities"..."an obviously dated concept"

As I stated in an earlier ost here, we need to guard against interpretin g everything in BSG through the lens of current thinking and attitudes. We have little data on Colonial mores re the relations between the sexes. We should be careful in making blanket statements.


{throwing hands up defensively} Hey, hey no foul intended. Just trying to be galliant for the sake of the lady posters here. :D

[repcisg]

Change can be a good thing, not always, but sometimes.

[KJ]

Looking back i wish several more scenes were there to flesh out the story a little more.

What if we had?

1) Cain or Sheba relating the tale of the Battle of Molocay with *flashbacks* added, showing the fifth fleet battling Cylons. Maybe showing some of Cain's past history with yet another hologram viewing i.e. recorded logs stored away etc. We'd get a look at other Battlestars this way and see how Cain survived and dealt with this crushing blow to his ego.

2) The Council of Twelve meeting Commander Cain. Perhaps another subplot showing how the Council takes a liking to Cain rather than Adama and may plot to replace him with Cain at some point in the future? Even if he is a warmongeror, they are blinded by him being the famous Living Legend and warm up to him. We could see a quick montage of scenes seeing Cain touring the fleet seeing whats left of humanity and what he has to fight for.

Could explain his actions later on trying to save the fleet from three baseships, with the images of the civilians in his head making him fight for them rather than himself.

3) More of the Pegasus. maybe she has subtle differences besides the similar look of her and the Galactica on the outside.

4) More Cylon civilians, the flip side to the colonials in the fleet. what exactly do Cylon civilians do.

5) Delphian Empire on Gamoray. What do they look like? Maybe it could have been an idea to have Boomer and Starbuck find some prisoner cells during the fuel raid and rescue some Delphians who could have informed the colonials more about the Cylons and their activities. They also could have remained on the Pegasus after she disappeared?! (what would that do for fanfic writers eh?)

6) Gold Spar, Bronze Spar squadrons? If Cain saved survivors of the fifth fleet what other squadrons of Vipers are there besides Silver Spar on the Pegasus? only fanfiction alludes to gold and other colours due to the colour name of Silver Spar squadron?

Add all that in a few more minutes and *voila* a bit more back bone eh?

Anyone got other ideas to add?

Living Legend: The Special Edition!



Certainly would great to add those to a new continuation comic book, expanded Battlestar Galactica episodes footage with all the episode scenes retold along with various logical extensions such as these added to further add more depth to the classic 2 parter Galactica stories.

Still, i got this idea in my head. If fans wanted to expand the stories. They have two options? A CGI short story crafting out the added expanded bits we'd love to see. Good detailed CGI, not the cartoony use of it. Short movies focusing on the character development, well animated bits we fans imagining fitting into the Living Legend episode quite well. Or choice two? All these 'Cough' *re-edited* 'Cough' episode versions with every existing bit of footage from all versions, thrown back in and re-edited together!

In any case, it shows fans love of this episode hasn't dwindled over the years but increased.

I can't wait for next BG fan movie to appear online. Cos its been a few years since we talked, downloaded or seen any at all.

KJ

[repcisg]

KJ you've touched on something TPTB have missed badly over the years. Unlike most Science Fiction Space stories, this one had depth, real depth. Glen, perhaps by accident, created a universe with a culture worth exploring, worth knowing.

[Senmut]

KJ you've touched on something TPTB have missed badly over the years. Unlike most Science Fiction Space stories, this one had depth, real depth. Glen, perhaps by accident, created a universe with a culture worth exploring, worth knowing.


Exactly. BSG has more depth than alot of other stuff put together. Of course, we have FAnFic to fall back on......

[Eric Paddon]

To give you some idea of how extensive the Galactica fanfic network is, Robert Hanczyk reports tonight that his site, the longest running one for Galactica fanfic, is now at 383 stories and still counting!

And when you add what's been done in the Library section here and at other sites, there is certainly at least 500 different Galactica fanfic stories for a fan to peruse without having to spend any money.

[Senmut]

The least of which leaves RDM eating ion vapors! Go, fans!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KJ]

To give you some idea of how extensive the Galactica fanfic network is, Robert Hanczyk reports tonight that his site, the longest running one for Galactica fanfic, is now at 383 stories and still counting!

When is Hanczyk gonna put up the remaining unfilmed scripts???

Only "The Munity" is on his site.

Where are 'Fire In Space' (original version) 'The Beta Pirates', 'Showdown', 'Two For Twilly', 'Crossfire' and 'I Have Seen Earth'!

Searched the whole web and i can't find them anywhere? could Robert Hanczyk help a BG fan dude out here.

KJ

[Eric Paddon]

I think instead of wondering about what Robert doesn't have on his site, and which he doesn't have and isn't part of his prime focus which is posting fanfic, it might be a lot more worthwhile to take advantage of what actually *is* there, which I think is the far more important thing to note about his site.

[peter noble]

http://img96.exs.cx/img96/6208/b6-LIV2HEADER.jpg

The Living Legend

Original Airdate Part 2: December 3, 1978

Writer: Glen A. Larson.

Director: Vince Edwards.

Guest Cast: Lloyd Bridges (Cain), Rod Haase (Tolan).

While on patrol, Apollo and Starbuck discover the missing Battlestar Pegasus under the command of the military genius Cain. Although now under the protection of two Battlestars, the fleet is stopped dead in space do to a critical fuel shortage. To obtain the necessary supplies, Cain and Adama plan a daring raid on a nearby Cylon command base.

http://img96.exs.cx/img96/612/21-LIVLEG2STRIP1.jpg

Anne Lockhart joins the cast as ace fighter pilot Sheba. Lockhart had been approached early on to appear in the original pilot, but the actress declined the role, feeling that it did not provide enough potential character development. Larson contacted her several months later, indicating that he had her in mind for a new character he was writing. Larson messengered over the first 25 pages of the script to the actress. Lockhart accepted that afternoon.

“I loved this character,” beams Lockhart. “I liked that she had great gumption and she was very good at what she did. She was a warrior equal to the men. In fact, I loved that gender was not made an issue of at all. I also very much liked her vulnerability and her awkwardness with person situations. She never wavered from her convictions or her intelligence as a warrior and as a military character, but she was very awkward emotionally. I really loved that dichotomy of a young woman who is so in control and on top of her game in the military aspects of her life and just as clumsy but trying desperately to cover it and be cool.”

One of the more memorable moments features Apollo, Starbuck and a team of Warriors parachuting into the Cylon capital. Shot at night on the campus of Cal State Northridge, the sequence presented significant lighting problems for director of photography John Penner. “I thought to myself, they’re wearing black parachutes, black jumpsuits, and coming out of a pure black sky in the middle of the night. I said to Larson, ‘Jesus Christ, how am I going to do this Glen?’ and he just smiled at me and laughed and he said, ‘Oh John, you’ll figure out something.’”

Penner’s solution was to lightly dust all the costumes and parachutes with aluminum spray paint. “We sprayed them from a good distance away so that they'd be black, but would have just a little speckle of aluminum on them. Then I had four arcs out there and two of the Maxi-Brutes. That’s what it took on an area like that – a lot of light.”

Laurette Spang recalled the excitement of shooting the sequence, exclaiming, "Oh, it was fun. They strapped us to a crane to make it appear that we were coming down on a parachute. It was at night and it was very exciting. With anything like that, you revert to being eight years old running across your backyard with a laser gun. I had done a lot of television in the years before but I really think that was a highlight. It was just great fun."

http://img96.exs.cx/img96/3019/ad-LIVLEG2STRIP2.jpg

Although never in any danger in the series, Colicos recalled one humorous incident on The Living Legend when Baltar leads the Cylon attack on the Galactica. "I was wearing a Cylon helmet while flying in a Cylon Raider,” he says. “They had a light in the helmet and I suddenly realized that my forehead was burning. I couldn't speak to anyone because the microphones were not connected, so I started making all these Charlie Chaplin pantomimes and they finally opened the sealed cabin."

The finale of The Living Legend has the Pegasus disappear after the destruction of two Cylon basestars. "It just went off like General McArthur," says director Vince Edwards, "old soldiers just fade away. It just faded away." Glen Larson has no doubts however that the Pegasus would have returned had the series continued. "I believe we would have brought Lloyd Bridges back. I deliberately obscured what happened in that battle. We don't know exactly what happened but it was very clear that it wasn't definitive that we had killed them off. I figured that Cain was too good. That worked and we would want to bring him back. It also gave you a chance to go off and do episodes with just him and his group."

http://img96.exs.cx/img96/5544/74-LIV2END.jpg

[kingfish]

Hopefully Cain wasn't returning as a cylon replicant as suggested. That would be too hard a blow to recover from.

[KJ]

I think instead of wondering about what Robert doesn't have on his site, and which he doesn't have and isn't part of his prime focus which is posting fanfic, it might be a lot more worthwhile to take advantage of what actually *is* there, which I think is the far more important thing to note about his site.

Well i think its a fair question Eric? Why can't i ask if i can't get the scripts elsewhere on the web. if BGInfosphere were still about no one would be asking this cos they had them all!

Fanfic is one thing, actual scripts done by writers who worked on the show is another. Abandoned concepts, story ideas etc were all done in those scripts and i for one would like to read them in my own time for my own enjoyment as a fan. I've BG fanfic's and has everyone else buti'd like a change of pace. And would like to now read stuff that was done during the show's writers, and try to imagine in my head as i read the script, what might have been filmed and crafted out at one point.

Surely that s not too hard to ask?!

Far as taking advantage of whats there, i already have? Which brings me back to my original question which isn't answered yet.

Does anyone know where to get the original unfilmed Galactica scripts in file format online? (other than "The Mutiny")

I'm sure others feel as i do but just ain't saying so. If those scripts are out there can anybody in the "know" point fellow fans in the right direction!

KJ

[Gemini1999]

Fanfic is one thing, actual scripts done by writers who worked on the show is another. Abandoned concepts, story ideas etc were all done in those scripts and i for one would like to read them in my own time for my own enjoyment as a fan. I've BG fanfic's and has everyone else buti'd like a change of pace. And would like to now read stuff that was done during the show's writers, and try to imagine in my head as i read the script, what might have been filmed and crafted out at one point.

KJ -

It's interesting that you brought this up.... I don't know if we are thinking about the same thing, but I tell you my thought on BSG scripts anyway... One of the best Sci Fi resources for a long gone TV show is the Catacombs website for Space:1999 (my other fave 70's show). They have complete script synopses for all 24 epsiodes - for each epsiode, they have complete cast listings, trivia, screen caps, etc. Here's a link so you can see the format I'm talking about:

Space:1999 Catacombs episode guide (http://www.space1999.net/~catacombs/main/epguide/t01b.html)

Space:1999 Script Synopses format (http://www.space1999.net/~catacombs/main/tscript/z01b.html)

It would be a monster of a project to do, but we could just transcribe the scripts and build on that after we get them all transcribed...

Just an idea :D

Best,
Bryan

[Eric Paddon]

Well i think its a fair question Eric?

The question you asked was "When is Hanczyk going to put up the rest of the scripts????" Whether intentionally or not, this came off as being dismissive of what is there, which is a lot of hard work effort he and a lot of people have put into that site over the last eight plus years, and seemingly taking him to task for what isn't there. If Robert had an unfilmed script at his disposal that he could post, he'd do it. Don't get on him for not having that, and somehow suggesting (intentionally or not) that the site is lacking for not having it, because that's how it ultimately comes off.

And as a matter of fact, "Two For Twilly" is on the site, as a fanfic adapted story that used the unshot script to turn it into a fanfic story.

[Senmut]

Seeing the scripts would be kind of fun. The variations in dialogue the actors spoke, or the last-millicenton changes scribbled in by whomever.

[KJ]

Seeing the scripts would be kind of fun. The variations in dialogue the actors spoke, or the last-millicenton changes scribbled in by whomever.

How true Senmut. For example. I can imagine how the opening of The Mutiny would begin, if it were actually a filmed episode. As it starts with Boomer, Starbuck and Apollo coming back from a patrol. With no reply from the bridge Starbuck gets bored and pulls some maneuvers with his Viper spinning around, before being told off by Colonel Tigh.

Stuff like that, its easy to imagine it happening with your imagination with the classic BG stock footage FX. Cos whats written down in scripts, captures the heart of the series and you can see certain things happening that you'd expect from an actual episode. Reading the script you try to see how it would have been done in your minds eye.

Out of all of them, Showdown, Two For Twilly and the original 2 part Fire In Space were almost shot for the first season weren't they! I Have Seen Earth along with Two For Twilly and Larson's Final Flight script might have been pushed back to the second season (barring that S-2 recovered document we've all heard about?) Crossfire became Gun On Ice Planet Zero and The Beta Pirates was demed too expensive to make?

Still getting round to reading the scripts, we can imagine what might have been. And since we know the characters so well. We can get added enjoyment out of reading situations they get involved in and dialogue they speak, imagine every sound, voice heard, character body language etc in everything you read in every page of an unfilmed script. Even though it wasn't filmed you can look back saying, i'd love to have seen that, that wouldn't happen, and come across abandoned concepts the scripts, had but the televisied episodes didn't have etc, and try to envision what they would have been like onscreen!

KJ

[Senmut]

LKJ once more wins the Caprican Prize for Eloquence!

[KJ]

Eh?

:eek:

[Fragmentary]

Talk about throwing everything but the kitchen sink into an episode.

You know, its episodes like this one that really show how Galactica was at its best when they were doing an ensemble show. The ones that were features for just one character never seem as strong. I love how everyone gets into the act, even Cassiopia jumps into the fray.

I also kind of wondered just how different Cain and Adama's command stlyes would have been if their circumstances had been reversed. Cain's style is almost the only way he could be, out there alone with no backup and no civilian influence, where as Adama must always take into account that he's protector of the last vestiges of humanity. If he didn't have that, if the Galactica had been on her own since the destruction of the colonies, would Adama also be obssessed with striking back against the Cylons no matter the odds?

In a way the show kind of shoes how circumstances might mold the Commander (and crew) of a Battlestar. And it blow'd stuff up real good.

[kingfish]

Welcome to fleets. Well stated.


Paul

[kingfish]

KJ -

It's interesting that you brought this up.... I don't know if we are thinking about the same thing, but I tell you my thought on BSG scripts anyway... One of the best Sci Fi resources for a long gone TV show is the Catacombs website for Space:1999 (my other fave 70's show). They have complete script synopses for all 24 epsiodes - for each epsiode, they have complete cast listings, trivia, screen caps, etc. Here's a link so you can see the format I'm talking about:

Space:1999 Catacombs episode guide (http://www.space1999.net/~catacombs/main/epguide/t01b.html)

Space:1999 Script Synopses format (http://www.space1999.net/~catacombs/main/tscript/z01b.html)

It would be a monster of a project to do, but we could just transcribe the scripts and build on that after we get them all transcribed...

Just an idea :D

Best,
Bryan



Catacombs is an EXCELLENT site for 1999.

[Eric Paddon]

What also elevates the strength of this episode is that it's the first since LPOTG to cast a big shadow over the rest of the series. In an earlier age, a strong episode like this in a TV series would never be dealt with again in subsequent weeks, but LL introduced a new and vital permanent character to the cast in Sheba, and Commander Cain was still referred to in WOTG and HOG. Think of how in a "Star Trek" an important guest character in a story would disappear and never be seen again by contrast.

[Senmut]

Eh?

:eek:



In udder words, I agree with you Dude.

[KJ]

Seeing the scripts would be kind of fun. The variations in dialogue the actors spoke, or the last-millicenton changes scribbled in by whomever.

Probably the change from 'The Last Legend' script or outline idea to 'The Living Legend' script. Is that what you mean!


The question you asked was "When is Hanczyk going to put up the rest of the scripts????" Whether intentionally or not, this came off as being dismissive of what is there, which is a lot of hard work effort he and a lot of people have put into that site over the last eight plus years, and seemingly taking him to task for what isn't there. If Robert had an unfilmed script at his disposal that he could post, he'd do it. Don't get on him for not having that, and somehow suggesting (intentionally or not) that the site is lacking for not having it, because that's how it ultimately comes off.

Well thats not how its meant or comes off, so go back and read it again! No one's getting on anyones case. Learn to deal with upfront questions and not see everything as a rude question o.k. Since that script isn't about, i was asking upfront if it could be put up wasn't i. If not by me then someone else would have.

Shessh.

KJ

[Pegasus4]

I can't remember what I ate for lunch today but I remember the first time I ever saw this episode 26 years ago. Excellent.

To me Cain was a cross between Generals Patton and MacArthur and Captain Ahab from Moby Dick. I would have loved to have seen Cain return but not as a replicant (like the new show's cylons remind me of from Blade Runner). Hopefully that Season 2 ep killing off Sheba and replacing the Pegasus crew with androids was just idle talk and if the show had been renewed maybe word of that would've gotten out and fans would've complained. Then Larson wouldn't have done anything like that :)

Anyway I remember being 10 watching this ep for the first time and my dad and I laughing when Baltar tells Lucifer that a single battlestar is no match for 3 baseships. It got better when Baltar decided to lead the attack. I can still hear my dad telling me that Baltar was going to see the Pegasus himself.

Great battle scene. Baltar looking kind of cool and silly at the same time wearing that cylon helmet. I think he did ok leading the attack by going for the Galactica's landing bays. And of course I'll never forget (and I always love watching this scene) his face. One minute he has this evil grin and he's actually saying goodbye to the Galactica. Then annoyance as the cylon pilot/copilot(?) interrupts him. And the startled look as he turns to yell at the cylon only to shut up mid word as he sees the Pegasus. I love that shocked look just like I like Commandant Leiter's face when he sees the Galactica's landing bay for the first time in Greetings from Earth.

I think Baltar did the right thing sending the other 2 basestars forward to defend him from the Pegasus. They are supporting ships and his is the flagship (of his fleet). Imperious Leader would've done the same thing.

Over a year ago my dad asked to see some scenes from the series. Baltar seeing the Pegasus was of course one of them. That's still his favorite scene of the series 26 years later too.

[KJ]

i'm still trying to find those Pegasus survives fan movies on the net. I have two but i've heard there are more out there?

Fans sure do love the Living Legend storyline.

Pity the telemovie version wasn't on the DVD as it's longer and has several scenes from both the DVD deleted stuff and more.

Type Battlestar Pegasus or just Pegasus into your search engine and see what comes up?

KJ

[Bojay]

ABC killed something that had a international fanbase that was very strong even in 1979 going on into the 1980's.


KJ

If you read the interview with Glen Larson in early 1980 form Starlog magazine I believe. You will find out the Larsen put an end to BSG, not the network. The ratings were nowhere low enough to warrant ending the series. Even at the time it was the most exspensive program being made.

Why did Larson kill it? Simple. His dream was misunderstood by the masses. From the way they talked about the spacecraft even NASA said were the only ones of that sci-fi era that would really fly. Cant remember the school, but there are papers written on the BSG shuttle design.

When 1980 came out. All was lost to Hollywood.

A professor friend of mine told me they should never have gotten to earth. Tis not the place you end up thats important, its how you get there that is.

[amberstar]

A professor friend of mine told me they should never have gotten to earth. Tis not the place you end up thats important, its how you get there that is.

So true Bojay.......sounds like that professor of yours knew what he was talking about :salute:

[KJ]

A professor friend of mine told me they should never have gotten to earth. Tis not the place you end up thats important, its how you get there that is.

True, but even so. By the time the Colonials get there they would have found Earth. plenty of stories could evolve around how do they contact their 13th tribe brothers and sisters? What shape are they in? Even when the reach Earth will the Cylons get there and destroy them all.

The journey definately counts and after many seasons i feel the stories still could have continued. Remember the 'battle' is never ending. Seeing the 13th Tribe (Earthlings) fight along side the Colonials to take on the Cylon Empire is another possibility when the Galactica reaches Earth is it not?

Galactica was bigger in scope than Larson could have ever dreamed of. It's not that people misunderstood his vision, it's that everybody else watched it and took it to the next level and saw the possibilties of the characters and storyline for themselves.

Blaming the masses is a no no. When will somebody in old hollywood actually stop passing the buck and take responsibility and fest up, either blame yourself or the networks that messed around with your vision. Blaming the masses? Yeah everybody but you eh Larson? guess larson wil blame the masses for more or less, half his TV shows for failing in their first seasons.

:rotf: :D

KJ

[justjackrandom]

If you read the interview with Glen Larson in early 1980 form Starlog magazine I believe. You will find out the Larsen put an end to BSG, not the network.

:wtf:

That's a new one on me. I would buy him ending G80, but not BSG.

I'll dig through a friend's old BSG info (including what I believe to be every Starlog article ever on Galactica) and see if I can find what you reference, but any more detail would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

JJR :salute:

[Eric Paddon]

Because of matters surrounding a certain other series, I've been revisting more the nature of the conflict this episode gives us between Adama and Cain, and it amazes me how on a fundamental level this story holds up so well all these years later.

A lot has been made of Cain as a MacArthur or Patton in space, but it occurs to me more and more that Adama in this episode is reminiscent of another WWII general, in this case Eisenhower. Eisenhower was always the commander who had to be concerned with political niceties and the bigger picture of things that an impulsive commander like Patton could often lose sight of. And Eisenhower had to relieve Patton once as well, despite the latter's brilliant successes because Eisenhower had to play politician as much as he had to play general.

Yet even amidst that, the respect and belief in the common good both generals represented, overruled everything else in their conflicts over approaching matters. And that ultimately is why LL works in terms of seeing this character conflict even as both men at heart still manage to think quite highly of each other.

[Airwolfnight]

Its my favorite episod of Battletar Galactica.

[Senmut]

Adama also reminds one of General Omar Bradley. "The Soldier's General", deeply concerned with the lives of his men, not spending them needlessly, and less with military glory.

[Eric Paddon]

True, but Bradley was not a man with a gift for politics in the same way that Eisenhower was and later proved to be as a civilian leader, which I think makes Ike the more appropriate counterpart for Adama.

[Wildcard]

this ep should be not only considered a BsG classic but a TV classic, and the novelization is even better! this is the franchises peak for all intents and purposes.

the battle itself has been debated many times at SD.net and SB.com and I have gamed it out with friends many times. But it is the breaking of old relationships(Adama/Cain)as contrasted with the creation of new ones(Apollo/Sheba)that make the ep work so well.

and a huge thank you to Lloyd Bridges for breathing life into what could have been a one dimensional martinet of a characther. You made Commander Cain truly unforgettable :salute:

[Athene]

I'm watcing this episode today. It's one of my absolute favourites. I agree about the missile launches. Very impressive. :)