OT: SADDAM HUSSEIN captured !

[BST]

(You folks probably know this by now, just passing the word)! :D

[amberstar]

Serriously? I've been doing paperwork all weekend have't even had the television on.
This is great news, now maybe our brave men in uniform can start coming home!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
:alien: :cow: :woof: :muffit: :beaver: :choco:
Amber

[thomas7g]

HOT DAMN!

[thomas7g]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/14/sprj.irq.main/index.html
U.S.: 'We got him'
Saddam captured near Tikrit
Sunday, December 14, 2003 Posted: 9:11 AM EST (1411 GMT)


TIKRIT, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. forces have captured Saddam Hussein in a late night raid near his hometown of Tikrit, according to the head of the Coalition Provisional Authority.

"Ladies and gentlemen, we got him," L. Paul Bremer announced Sunday. The announcement was greeted with cheers from the audience.

Lt. General Ricardo Sanchez showed video of Saddam, who had graying hair and a long beard, undergoing a medical examination after his capture.

Several Iraqi journalists stood up and shouted "Death to Saddam" after the video was shown.

Sanchez said the former leader was not injured and has been "talkative and cooperative," after 4th Infantry Division and special operations forces nabbed him at a "rural farmhouse."

"Today is a great day for the Iraqi people and the coalition," Sanchez said.

Not a single shot was fired in "Operation Red Dawn," carried out based on intelligence gathered over several months, Sanchez said.

"This is very good news for the people of Iraq," British Prime Minister Tony Blair said in a statement Sunday. "It removes the shadow that has been hanging over them for too long of the nightmare of a return to the Saddam regime. This fear is now removed." (Blair reaction)

A senior U.S. official told CNN's Dana Bash in Washington that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told President Bush Saturday afternoon (EST) of the likely capture.

In Baghdad, hundreds of Iraqis flooded the streets, firing guns into the air, singing, dancing and throwing candy into the air -- celebrating the apparent capture of the man who had ruled their lives with terror and repression for more than three decades.

The raid was based on intelligence that Saddam was at a particular location in the area, the officials said.

Video following that raid -- exclusively shot by CNN's Alphonso Van Marsh -- showed a group of U.S.-led coalition soldiers patting each other on the back -- apparently in celebration -- and taking group photos in front of a military vehicle.

The 66-year-old longtime Iraqi leader was number one on the coalition's 55 most wanted list, and his evasion has been a political sore spot for the U.S. administration. (Saddam profile)

The Iraq war began on March 19 when U.S. forces launched a "decapitation attack" aimed at the Iraqi president and other top members of the country's leadership.

Hours later, a defiant Saddam wearing a military uniform appeared on Iraqi television to denounce the U.S.-led military campaign as "criminal" and to say his countrymen would be victorious.

At least a dozen audiotapes believed to have been recorded by Saddam, 66, have been released since he was forced out of power by the coalition forces during the Iraq war. The most recent was broadcast in November.

His sons Uday and Qusay -- also on the coalition's most wanted list -- were killed in July, after U.S. forces stormed their hideout in Mosul.

Sixteen policemen were among those killed in Sunday's explosion at Khaldiyah, 80 kilometers (50 miles) from the Iraqi capital, the officer added. (Full story)

-- CNN Senior Military Affairs Correspondent Jamie McIntyre and CNN Baghdad Bureau Chief Jane Arraf contributed to this report

[kingfish]

That is excellent news. With Saddam in coalition hands the transition for a new government in Iraq will be so much easier. IMHO George Bush is now a shoe in in November. he delivered on his promise to get Hussein.

[BST]

The question now is whether or not the guerrilla attacks will stop. Apparently, Hussein was carrying large amounts of US $$$ ($750,000 was the amount I had heard) and this was probably used to finance the guerrilla attacks -- car bombs, roadside landmines, etc.

Now, with the funding cut off, peace in Iraq may finally stand a chance.

Here's hoping. :)

BST

[Oenone]

This is good news but .........

Isn't showing those pictures of him being examined (humiliated) a violation of human rights.

[dec5]

Oh happy day!!!!!!

http://www.boomspeed.com/dec55/21_1_121403_hussein5.jpg

[thomas7g]

Oen- The thought crossed my mind. But they only showed him getting his throat checked. And a hair cut. Quite ordinary things.

The point is, he's ordinary now. Just another guy in jail. Big crime, but he's a history lesson now. :)

[nightscape2112]

that thought never crossed my mind. if they had shown him getting a anal exam, that would be humiliation. they in no way violated his human rights.

i am glad he was caught. now the question of what is done with him.

nightscape

[kingfish]

From the reports that I heard, Saddam will be tried as a war criminal and probably will receive the death penalty. He may be responsible for one million deaths. He gased the Kurds at the end of Desert Storm I.

[Oenone]

They show him having his "Teeth Checked liked a horse" and his hair cut. Both are considered insults in the Muslim world. I have no doubt this was a public humiliation which is contrary to the Geneva convention of human rights.

Of course Saddam is blood thirsty tyrant but what's the point in having any human rights if they only apply to the victorious? The point is they apply to all. No matter what they have done. Ignoring the human rights of one man erodes the rights of all..

Whether you believe in capital punishment or not he'll more than likely be subject to a show trial then executed. The truth is, this guy is far less trouble dead than he is alive. It's the bottom line.

[BST]

oenone,

Of course Saddam is blood thirsty tyrant but what's the point in having any human rights if they only apply to the victorious? The point is they apply to all. No matter what they have done. Ignoring the human rights of one man erodes the rights of all..


Absolutely agreed. Tell that to the families of the soldiers who were murdered in the middle of the street and then, had their bodies drug around town. Weren't their rights violated and would not human rights apply to them as well?

Also,

The WORLD knows of the atrocities committed upon his own people and others by this man. IF, and I say IF, there are any "rights" being violated, would you not agree that they pale against those whose rights HE violated.


BST

[kingfish]

Well stated BST. The treatment we are giving Saddam is too good for that tyrant IMHO. Saddam was captured in conditions that stated his true nature, a rat in a hole who has no power over no one but poor innocent people whom he bullied for years through intimidation.

[BST]

Thanks, Kingfish.

I have just grown so weary hearing about the rights of the "perpetrator" being violated. Sometimes the rights of the victims are forgotten about.


BST

[Oenone]

So you think human rights are not worth having? These rights are supposed to prevent people becoming victims and punish those who violate them.

As long as there are people who can find justifications for discarding other people's human rights, there will be atrocities committed in this world.

All these tyrants feel they have a god given justification for the extermination of a group of people. We should not lower ourselves to their level.

[BST]

Oenone,

My patience is wearing a bit thin. Did you read my post directly above yours? Perhaps you misunderstood my remarks. At no time did I state or even infer that human rights are not to be considered. If I am mistaken, please be kind enough to point out my mistake.

Now, to elaborate a bit:

When a person is arrested for a capital crime, he or she is usually subject to an examination. This is acceptable procedure, acknowledged by most, if not all, governments on the planet.

Regarding the arrestee:

This man is entitled to Basic Human Rights.

This man is a criminal who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of his own countrymen and women.

This man will receive a war crimes trial (venue as yet undecided). For it to be viewed as fair, my hope is that it is held in the World Court.


Last thought: Is there any information available regarding the "outrage" in the Muslim world, at the arrest and post-arrest "treatment" of Saddam Hussein? I would be most interested in viewing these results.

BST

[kingfish]

I will say this, if Saddam had gotten WMD's do you think he would be humane? The answer is no. He would have used them on our troops and at worse case, on the USA itself.

[Oenone]

Originally posted by BST
Oenone,

My patience is wearing a bit thin. Did you read my post directly above yours? Perhaps you misunderstood my remarks. At no time did I state or even infer that human rights are not to be considered. If I am mistaken, please be kind enough to point out my mistake.


I was referring to the post above yours. As I have said before the issue of human rights is easily forgotten. Someone has to point this out as it affects each of us now and will also effect future generations.

Our freedom and rights have come at a very heavy price. These freedoms are being eroded by successive governments and corporations. Do you know what you have to do to loose these rights? NOTHING!!!!!!

You say your patience is wearing thin! I have no patience for any group that’s does not respect the basic rights of others and I will speak out against them because it is OUR right to do so.



First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out — because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out — because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out — because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me —
and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.

German anti-Nazi activist, Pastor Martin Niemöller


If we keep quiet we'll all become mindless drones :cylon:

Originally posted by BST

When a person is arrested for a capital crime, he or she is usually subject to an examination. This is acceptable procedure, acknowledged by most, if not all, governments on the planet.


This is usual, what is not usual is for the examination to be televised.

Originally posted by BST

This man is entitled to Basic Human Rights.

This man is a criminal who is responsible for the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of his own countrymen and women.

This man will receive a war crimes trial (venue as yet undecided). For it to be viewed as fair, my hope is that it is held in the World Court.


This is not going to happen as the US has opted out of the International Criminal Court! Most likely he will be tried in Iraq.

Originally posted by BST

Last thought: Is there any information available regarding the "outrage" in the Muslim world, at the arrest and post-arrest "treatment" of Saddam Hussein? I would be most interested in viewing these results.
BST

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CC95D495-E992-42B5-A9B6-CCBCA1A26DEB.htm

[Senmut]

Swabbing tissue from inside the cheeks is a common way of getting epithelial cells for DNA tests. If that happens to be some kind of insult over there, well hand me my teddy bear! I personally believe that those who have committed crimes on such a scale have utterly abrogated any Human rights they may once have had. Just my take on the Baltar of Baghdad.
Oh, BTW...anyone on here know how to say "Der Fuhrerbunker" in Arabic???:salute: :beer: :beer:

[BST]

Oenone,

My apologies for this delayed response.

Our freedom and rights have come at a very heavy price. These freedoms are being eroded by successive governments and corporations. Do you know what you have to do to loose these rights? NOTHING!!!!!!

In my opinion, freedoms and rights are lost moreso to apathy than to governments and corporations. To preserve one's rights and freedoms, one must be willing to fight for them (and to defend them).

You say your patience is wearing thin! I have no patience for any group that’s does not respect the basic rights of others and I will speak out against them because it is OUR right to do so.

I do agree with your statement. Maybe I wasn't completely clear with mine. :) When I said my patience is wearing thin, I meant that it is wearing VERY thin if it is only brought up when it's in regards to how an arrestee is being treated. One could barely hear a single word about rights and freedoms when the victims are being slaughtered. I don't think that Saddam should be humiliated unnecessarily and at the same time, I don't feel that these few pictures were unnecessarily humiliating. If nothing else, they were a strong message to HIM that he is no longer in power and will be treated like a common criminal. He should be treated as a prisoner of war and should be brought to trial for his crimes against humanity but, while he is entitled to certain rights, under the Geneva Conventions regarding prisoners of war, he should not be given any preferential treatment merely because he is who he is. I think you and I are closer to agreement than it might have appeared earlier. My point is that rights and freedoms have to apply to everyone, victims and perpetrators, regardless of status. If not, they are worthless.

[Oenone]

Originally posted by BST

In my opinion, freedoms and rights are lost moreso to apathy than to governments and corporations. To preserve one's rights and freedoms, one must be willing to fight for them (and to defend them).


Yes that was the point I was trying to make.

"The price to keep freedom is eternal vigilance"

Originally posted by BST

I do agree with your statement. Maybe I wasn't completely clear with mine. :) When I said my patience is wearing thin, I meant that it is wearing VERY thin if it is only brought up when it's in regards to how an arrestee is being treated. One could barely hear a single word about rights and freedoms when the victims are being slaughtered.


I think it's taken for granted that people like Saddam only care about themselves. Indeed the conditions in which he was found would indicate that whilst he was happy to send tens of thousands to their deaths he wasn't too keen on risking his own neck.

Originally posted by BST

I don't think that Saddam should be humiliated unnecessarily and at the same time, I don't feel that these few pictures were unnecessarily humiliating. If nothing else, they were a strong message to HIM that he is no longer in power and will be treated like a common criminal.


I think this is subjective. I personally believe that in this case the film was designed to humiliate him in front of the Arab world. Though in the western world it would be perceived as not humiliating.

Several Arabs have said on TV that "He is having his teeth checked like a donkey"

Originally posted by BST

He should be treated as a prisoner of war and should be brought to trial for his crimes against humanity but, while he is entitled to certain rights, under the Geneva Conventions regarding prisoners of war, he should not be given any preferential treatment merely because he is who he is.


It's stated that POW's should not be photographed or filmed. Whilst I tend to disagree with this, especially in the case of high profile prisoners. I think that the use of such documentary evidence should be restricted to just providing proof of capture.

Originally posted by BST

I think you and I are closer to agreement than it might have appeared earlier. My point is that rights and freedoms have to apply to everyone, victims and perpetrators, regardless of status. If not, they are worthless.

Yes. I think it's more important for the victims to find out what has happened to the "missing" rather than see Saddam paraded on TV and also to close the loop on any rebel forces still loyal to him. Then people can get on with building their lives. This tends to get forgotten by the flaming torches & pitchforks brigade.

[Darth Marley]

Glad he was taken in.
I am no expert,but it seems that our government might be able to skirt Geneva Convention by simply not classifying him as a POW.
Not sure what they have said about that.
The gitmo prisoners were photographed,and it caused a stir in the press.

[TheHobb]

Saddam is not a prisoner of war and is therefore not protected by that status under the Geneva Convention. He is a criminal that has finally been caught and will be brought up on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Regardless to that, he wouldn't be classified as a POW anyway because he is not a soldier in the service of a government - one of the primary prerequisites of the POW status.

[Stevew]

4 BST
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004446


http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11378
There are quite a few out there
S:D

[Darth Marley]

Fox just showed a spoof photo of the "queer eye" cast with Saddam in a chair,scruffy looking,with the cast giving him a make-over.
Made me laugh.

[BST]

Originally posted by TheHobb
Saddam is not a prisoner of war and is therefore not protected by that status under the Geneva Convention. He is a criminal that has finally been caught and will be brought up on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Regardless to that, he wouldn't be classified as a POW anyway because he is not a soldier in the service of a government - one of the primary prerequisites of the POW status.

Hi Hobb,

The reason that (I thought) Hussein would be tried as a war criminal and protected under the Geneva Convention is that he was President of Iraq and Commander-In-Chief of the Iraqi Armed Forces which would, of course, put him at the highest rung on the military chain of command, even though he was, uh, "elected" to his civilian position.

This scenario is somewhat interesting in terms of how he will be prosecuted, methinks a review of the Geneva Convention, for me, might be in order.

:)

BST