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havoc315
January 14th, 2003, 11:57 AM
My vacation was wonderfully relaxing.... But I returned to quite a large pile of work, which I have barely made a dent in.

Since returning, I have read all three major Galactica reviews and its incredible how much each one diverges. I would love to read the script and review it myself (Michael Faries.... want to share.... please?)... but absent such an opportunity, I just want to share my insights based on what can be gleaned from the three reviews thus far. Besides, Apothis asked for my opinion, so blame him!

Ironically, of the 3 reviews (filmjerk, Faries and AICN), I find the best review came from the writer with the admitted bias, Michael Faries. Perhaps knowing he was biased, he did his best to examine the material objectively and it shows.

With the information that has leaked from the three reviews, I think we can start to put together a picture of what the remake will look like. I still hold the position, that we won't really know whether its any good until its put on the screen. A script is two-dimensional, the strongest script could still be destroyed by horrible acting, direct, FX, etc. And vice versa, even a questionable script could turn into a solid production.

So, based on the leaks that have come out.... am I still as optimistic about the BSG remake?
As you know me, of course the answer is not simple. I still very much want to see the final production, I think I will probably still enjoy it.... But I will gladly admit that I have problems with some of the things I have heard.

I know some of my criticisms as purely nitpicky, but we're each entitled to our personal nitpicks and peeves. Some of my criticisms are simply that I would have made choices different than RDM. For the most part, my criticisms are not the same as the more popular issues.

Without further ado, my major problems with the script, as it has been leaked:

1) The castration/emasculation of a major character. No, I'm not talking about Starbuck, I'm not even talking about Boomer. Believe it or not, I'm talking about Colonel Tigh! I completely support humanizing the characters, giving them flaws, etc...... But based on the reviews, it appears Tigh has been reduced to a pathetic cuckold.

To me, the ideal protagonists are flawed, making them easier to relate to, but in the end they still earn our respect. Depending on how Tigh is played, this might still happen, but the script leaks don't sound promising.

2) Further castration: I'm still not talking about Starbuck or Boomer! This time, I'm talking about the Galactica herself!
So...
2)a) The retirement of the Galactica, etc: In the original, the Galactica was just One Battlestar, no different than the rest. Through a combination of wise leadership, thrown in with lots of luck, it was the one surviving Battlestar. It was not the first, it was not the best, it just happened to be the one who survived. There was something ordinary about it. These were the colonials that happened to survive and would need to rise above their circumstances to find earth. This was the one Battlestar that happened to survive, and would have to lead the colonials.

Not only is it unnecessary to give the Galactica the honored bearth of being the first Battlestar, but it actually takes away from the feeling of "random survival." One problem I had the Trek:TNG, was that the Enterprise was the best ship in the fleet... I would rather see stories happening on a more ordinary ship, faced with extraordinary circumstances.

My bigger problem is with the whole decommissioning of the Galactica and turning it into a museum. It's a simple plot device, an explanation of how the ship survives, an opportunity to provide comedy with Gift Shops, etc. As a plot device, I guess it can work but it still takes away from the feeling that this was an ordinary ship, that happened to be the survivor.

2)b) Further emasculation: Low-tech Galactica. I don't think this has anything to do with RDM's budget... To create the appearance of high versus low-tech is probably of a similar budget. I think its a creative choice by RDM. I understand the choice, it's part of the story. It will also make the Galactica appear more familiar to our own world and surroundings. But I still don't like it... simply for the "cool factor." A part of the reason we watch SciFi shows like Galactica and Trek is to see fantastical technology and devices. I don't like the extremes (I hate Replicators and Holodecks), but I also enjoy seeing technology more advanced than a modern naval ship. This is definitely nitpicking, but I'm allowed!

3) Too few female characters! Too few I say?!?! But they have changed two major characters into females and they have added a female President! Alas, there is still one very important female character entirely erased..... The lovely Athena.

If the focus of the new show is to truly be the "Adama" family, then how could they pass on the opportunity to have Athena? I'm all for the strain in the relationship between Adama and Apollo, conflict and tension make good drama. But Athena could be the perfect foil for such drama, torn between her father and brother? Or providing an alternative relationship in the family paradigm. There is a wealth of opportunity for the character, more than existed in the previous show, and she is wiped out entirely!

If there is a petition, this should be its goal! Give us Athena!

I have other criticisms, but those are the top three (for some reason, the fleet being 60 ships just sounds too small), and I have a pile of work I need to finish. A quick discussion on wait-and-see, and on the pros:

First, wait and see:

The Mythos: I, and others on this board, really loved the mythological elements. They seem to be mostly missing from this script. But as I thought about it, I realized that this was not a primary focus (mentioned, yes, but not the focus) of the original pilot either. So, if the new BSG does become a series, will we see this angle explored further? I hope so.

The Cylon Backstory: This is really good and bad. I really like that the backstory is much more flushed out than the original. The question is whether the backstory is any good. The whole machine turning against the creator, it's nothing new. This summer alone we will see the storyline in Terminator and Matrix franchises. While its not new, there is a reason it is used so often: It's interesting, and it can work. Whether it will work here... I'll wait and see. In afterthought, the original BSG pilot was much more akin to the 9/11 disaster than the proposed Cylon story.

And now the pros:

1) Baltar: The character, while different than the original, sounds deliciously complicated and evil. With a good actor and performance, this could be a real treat.

2) The scope and depth: In the original BSG, their entire world is destroyed, they fight the cylons, rag-tag fleet is assembled, and they head off in search of earth, all in about an hour. This miniseries takes the same basic events, but places it over four hours. If done right, we will really see the struggle on the colonial homeworld, we will feel the crisis, appreciate the difficult decision making. This is probably the greatest reason to do a remake, and it does sound promising.


That about covers it.... unless the script accidentally falls within my lap through some magical means (hint hint), this is my current level of insight.

Apothis
January 14th, 2003, 12:12 PM
Yes...I begged for his return and I am glad to see him here.

michaelfaries
January 14th, 2003, 12:54 PM
I'm impressed with your insights, Havoc.

Michael
:colwar: ...who isn't able to pass along the script.

havoc315
January 14th, 2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by michaelfaries

Michael
:colwar: ...who isn't able to pass along the script.

Of course you can't.... Nope, definitely not. You shouldn't do it. Last thing you should do. You can't, you shouldn't, you won't...

And if it somehow appears in my e-mailbox (or hardcopy in a regular mailbox), and if I were asked where I got it, I would certainly know that it couldn't have possibly come from you.

<whistling innocently>

Apothis
January 14th, 2003, 01:22 PM
Maybe you can e-mail it out accidently as part of the Colonial Newsletter. I read your newsletter every publication and if it was sent accidently then it's not your fault most of us will have a copy of it.

dah66
January 14th, 2003, 02:19 PM
Welcome back, if you start a "Bring Back Athena" petition, I'll be the first to sign it.

Dave


:)

peter noble
January 14th, 2003, 02:47 PM
Welcome back havoc315, hope you had a great vacation and Happy New Year!

Regards,

Peter

jewels
January 14th, 2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Apothis
Maybe you can e-mail it out accidently as part of the Colonial Newsletter. I read your newsletter every publication and if it was sent accidently then it's not your fault most of us will have a copy of it.
Apothis:
Colonial Newsletter is Starship Trooper's pub. just an fyi.

jewels
January 14th, 2003, 04:03 PM
havoc:
well stated on your points. I like how you described the fates of Tigh and the Galactica within the Moore universe. Way to support one of the real women characters also!
Julie

crash4587
January 14th, 2003, 04:49 PM
I was hopeing the Lord's of Light talked you into the fact that a Continuation is the only way to go LOL

Apothis
January 14th, 2003, 06:10 PM
Thanks Jewels...I didn't know that. I just notice that the newsletter says webmaster@battlestargalactica.com so I assumed it was Michael. Thanks for the info Jewels...Thanks Starship Trooper for the publication...I read it religiously.

SS1
January 14th, 2003, 10:38 PM
I did Not want to take Michael's Thread off Topic so I decided to continue this here.

Originally posted by havoc315
1) I honestly don't know. The idea of a prequal does not excite me. I might watch out of curiousity. If it was really good, of course I would keep watching. But the idea does not seem promising. It would be an entirely different show.

What the hell do you call Ronald D Moore current BSG script? A carbon copy of the original?

Also, wasn't their a gripe or two from you about the original 1978 pilot not having enough back story?

Well there you go a whole series based on your gripe.

Originally posted by havoc315
1) Just as "Smallville" tells the story of Clark Kent *before* he became Superman. Thus, if I was simply a Superman fan, I might not care much about his life before donning the cape. This situation might be even more extreme... Like a story about Peter Parker, before he got bitten by the spider.

Smallville Rocks!! Clark Kent didn't just wake up one morning and became Superman. This show is a retelling and a good re-imagining of Clark Kent discovering his power and learning how to use them and setting things up for things to come in his future. His current relationship with Lex Luther is a great way of allowing viewers understand how he will become his greatest adversary.

As for Peter Parker,he litteraly did woke up one morning and became Spiderman. To make a TV series based on his life before he got bitten by the radio active spider would be unwatchable.


Originally posted by havoc315
A prequal would likely just be the adventures of the Galactica. Sounds too much like every Trek series (The adventures of the Enterprise, the adventures of the Voyager, the adventures of a couple more ships named Enterprise).

May I remind you that your favorite writer Ronald D Moore was heavily involved with those In carnations.

Also I am not entirally sure, didn't you use to defend the Moore's script by commenting on all the great Trek episodes he has written?

I am not attacking you or anything like that but your logic confuses the hell out of me.

BTW Welcome back

havoc315
January 15th, 2003, 05:59 AM
I'm always willing to engage in a friendly debate.

Originally posted by Scooter2000
What the hell do you call Ronald D Moore current BSG script? A carbon copy of the original?

I still call it Galactica. It's still about the survivors of a holocaust, their world destroyed by the cylons, struggling with a rag-tag fleet to find a new home. You're so obsessed with the differences, that you can't see the similiarities with the original series. A prequal would be FAR more different. There would be no holocaust. There would be no rag-tag fleet. There would be no search for earth. This would of course affect the entire theme of the show, it would practically change the genre.

For those who simply want to learn more about the universe of the Battlestar Galactica that existed in 1978-79, they might find some entertainment in a prequal. Similarly, the show might even be entertaining to new fans. But for those who want to see the story of the Battlestar Galactica, the destruction of the colonial worlds, the lone surviving battlestar, etc.... this can only happen with a remake.

Also, wasn't their a gripe or two from you about the original 1978 pilot not having enough back story?

Absolutely, but I don't want to see an entire series of backstory! I don't want to spend hour after hour watching Cylons and colonials fight it out hundreds of years before the events of BSG. (Or even a few years before BSG). I want some backstory, but mostly I want THE STORY! THE STORY = The destruction of the colonies by the cylons, the betrayal of humanity by Baltar, the escape of the lone surviving battlestar, the formation of the rag-tag fleet, the search for earth. That's THE STORY. A prequal would not have those elements. A continuation would not have most of those elements either.


Well there you go a whole series based on your gripe.

That's like saying a whole series based on your gripe would be a series where Apollo (played by Hatch) and Starbuck (played by Benedict) sit around a coffee shop and discuss which antacids work best for them.


Smallville Rocks!! Clark Kent didn't just wake up one morning and became Superman. This show is a retelling and a good re-imagining of Clark Kent discovering his power and learning how to use them and setting things up for things to come in his future. His current relationship with Lex Luther is a great way of allowing viewers understand how he will become his greatest adversary.

Interesting that you're such a fan of the totally "re-imagined" Clark Kent, who has been totally derided by Superman loyalists. I think you have just demonstrated why SciFi/Universal believe that a remake of BSG can bring in many new fans, even if it peeves so "loyalists."

As for Peter Parker,he litteraly did woke up one morning and became Spiderman. To make a TV series based on his life before he got bitten by the radio active spider would be unwatchable.

That's how I feel about a prequal to BSG. The whole story was the survival given the holocaust, I don't care much about the events that led up to it. Yes, as fleshed out backstory, but not an entire series.


May I remind you that your favorite writer Ronald D Moore was heavily involved with those In carnations.

Also I am not entirally sure, didn't you use to defend the Moore's script by commenting on all the great Trek episodes he has written?

I never said Moore was my favorite writer. I also never said I disliked all Star Trek. I said I don't want to see BSG *become* just another Star Trek series. I am also a fan of The West Wing, but I wouldn't want to see BSG become the West Wing either.

But to give RDM some credit, I complained about the typical Trek formula of lone space ship having a different adventure each week on a different planet or with a different alien. I don't want to see BSG become like this. To RDM's credit, his Trek experience was primarily with Deep Space Nine, out of five Star Trek shows, the only show to break away from that format. Instead, he brought the audience rich and complex characters in evolving and intelligent storylines. I am hopeful that he might achieve the same success with BSG.


BTW Welcome back

Thank you, and thanks to everyone for the warm return welcomes. Good to be back.

havoc315
January 15th, 2003, 06:14 AM
Yes... saw the temples... some ruins anyway......

Originally posted by crash4587
I was hopeing the Lord's of Light talked you into the fact that a Continuation is the only way to go LOL

They took me aside.... As I stood among the ruins, the Lords of Kobol themselves came to me... They said..

"Fight for the story to be told.. From the beginning of the journey \... From the destruction of our known civilization.... so that earth's humanity would know of the plight of Galactica and its fleet..... Tell of the EPIC...

... but don't lower the quality of the show as a mere chance for a couple out-of-work, over-the-hill, has-been, actors to get a paycheck again with roles they played 25 years ago, flying around in spaceships and shooting off lasers without any sense of epic."

And so it was written into the Book....

Stevew
January 15th, 2003, 09:05 AM
Hope you cruise went well. Still beating the RDM drum I C. A well written continuation could fill every bill quite easily. The folks that write "24" could easliey do it justice.
If they go with RDM just call it something else, like they did with Smallville, Battlestar Capricia maybe
S:)

havoc315
January 15th, 2003, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Stevew
Hope you cruise went well. Still beating the RDM drum I C. A well written continuation could fill every bill quite easily. The folks that write "24" could easliey do it justice.
If they go with RDM just call it something else, like they did with Smallville, Battlestar Capricia maybe
S:)

For some reason I do watch 24, but I mostly make fun of the absurdity and horrible cliche writing. So, at least to me, that's a pretty bad example.

As you can see from my "review," I'm hardly beating the RDM drum, merely supporting his project but with plenty of my own criticism.

But I take issue with your statement that a continuation "could fill every bill quite easily"

I have no idea what bills you might be talking about.
If we break the original BSG into its core story elements, it looks something like this:
1. Holocaust, entire civilization wiped out by Cylons.
2. Betrayal of humanity by Baltar.
3. Lone Battlestar Escapes.
4. Rag-tag fleet assembled of survivors.
5. The journey/search for earth begins.

A continuation would only have a continuation of number (5), it would not emphasize the other four elements, which to me are the real reason to watch any Battlestar Galactica project. Yes, I know you will say that a continuation could have flash-backs to the other elements. But what would be the point of that? A four hour telemovie, with four hours worth of flashbacks, but with a quick intro and conclusion scene of Apollo writing his memoirs?

I just have very little interest in "Battlestar Galactica: 25 Years Later." My interest is almost exclusively in the *core* story. To me, a continuation would be like doing another Gilligan's Island reunion where the surviving cast members get stranded on the island all over again. Or perhaps doing a continuation of the Donner Superman movies... starring Christopher Reeves in his wheelchair, as Superman after a horrible accident. The new Superman movie, also 25 years after the last series, will in all likelihood do the origin story all over, because the origin story is perhaps the strongest aspect of Superman lore. Similarly, I believe the Holocaust/Origin story is the strongest aspect of Galactica.

To me, the difference is between re-telling history (in this case, re-telling a FANTASTIC fictional story), versus living in the past (re-uniting a few old cast members and milking the story for some 25-years post stuff).

Artemis
January 15th, 2003, 10:20 AM
I found your review of reviews well written and insightful. I especially agree with what you have to say about Tigh.
I'm talking about Colonel Tigh! I completely support humanizing the characters, giving them flaws, etc...... But based on the reviews, it appears Tigh has been reduced to a pathetic cuckold.
The idea of Tigh as a drunk really bothers me. He and Adama compliment each other as much as Apollo and Starbuck do. I saw Tigh as the grounding influence on Adama, reminding him of the regulations or other consequences of his orders but always following his orders in the end.

The loss of Athena is also curious, why add female characters when you have a good one to work with?

I would hardly call this review of reviews a "beating of RDM's drum", there are more cons than pros and as before the message seems to be don't prejudge what hasn't been made.
:colwar:

Stevew
January 15th, 2003, 10:27 AM
Your opinions are yours and mine are mine. I think "24" is great
S

havoc315
January 15th, 2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Stevew
Your opinions are yours and mine are mine. I think "24" is great
S

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I do watch 24, so I guess I can only hate it so much.... and I don't mean to get off-topic,
but don't you get bothered by the constant conspiracies, the "surprises" (whereby the writers try so hard to be unpredictable, that they actually end up being extremely predictable), and the way clues seem to magically appear, one at a time, once per hour?

For some reason I accept the lack of realism in Alias, I see it as a comic-book brought to life, but on the other hand, I can't stand the lack of realism in 24, perhaps because they want to be taken seriously. Maybe is Jack Bauer dyed his hair purple I would accept the lack of any realism.

...anyway... didn't mean to stray from the topic.

Stevew
January 15th, 2003, 10:51 AM
It is TV, to expect realisim, is wishfull thinking, this is why I love sci-fi
it is just entainment and an escape for me. If you compare 24 to most of the stupid crap on TV now it is very refreshing
If I want realism I will watch Discovery or the History channel.
S

havoc315
January 15th, 2003, 11:46 AM
But even in scifi, I expect a certain degree of realism. I don't necessarily mean scientific accuracy, just that people behave as real people would behave... some consistency in the rules of the universe, etc.

If the writers of 24 were writing BSG back in 1978-79, Starbuck would have been exposed as a cylon traitor halfway through the season (even though it would contradict everything known about the character). Baltar would viciously get his head chopped off by Apollo. Athena would get kidnapped.... 9 or 10 times during the season. Meanwhile, Adama would command the entire fleet not from the bridge, but from a laptop computer in his quarters, a computer which always has the most important information, but for some reason, only finds about one piece of information per week.

There... I brought the topic back to BSG.....

Stevew
January 15th, 2003, 12:17 PM
One persons view, it just happens not to be mine
S:D

repcisg
January 15th, 2003, 04:21 PM
I'll have find time to watch 24, see what this is all about.

Stevew
January 15th, 2003, 04:30 PM
Do that I think you will find it very intertaining
S:D

vmnjn
January 17th, 2003, 03:16 PM
As Shakespeare might have said...

Cry Havoc315, And Let Loose The Worms Of The Can!

Good to see you survived your trip.

Good points and I do agree with some of them.

Again my concern is a Lexx-like version of Battlestar Galactica. The reason I still have this concern is because the SciFi Channel had no problem airing this eurotica-filled, almost soft-porn, show for several seasons. So I see no reason that they would not try it again.

I too will hold final judgement until the product airs.

Welcome back... (Just when I thought I could spend less than an hour reading one thread...)