Was Obi-Wan Kenobi heartless and cruel ?

[gpdesigner]

Ok before I get into me statement just a bit about the story line continuity.
I know the saga of Star Wars spans almost 30 years, and I think they really did a splendid job keeping the continuity of the story together . . . . .
However . .
episode 5:
Obi-wan appears to Luke in ghostly fashion, Just after Luke escapes the from the clutches of the Snow-Monster. While Luke is laying there Obi-Wan appears to him and clearly states that he should go to Degoba and learn from Yoda The Jedi Master who taught Obi-Wan . . . . Shouldn't that be Qui-Gon Jinn ?

I just thought I would mention that . . . .

Ok so to my statement: Was Obi-Wan Kenobi heartless and crule ?
episode 3 :
The Battle scene between Anakin and Obi-Wan was awesome to say the least, And I totally realize that Obi-Wan mission was to stop Anakin at cost. But after the movie the events that took place at the close of that battle set me uneasy about Obi-Wan.
What he did to Anakin was un-Jedi I thought. basically he left him badly burned, and crippled, which are injuries he himself inflicked for the most part. But after he damaged Anakin beyond any hope . . . . . he just turns and walks off.
he knew Anakin was still alive or ready to die at best, why would he just walk off and leave him in mortal pain until death considering what Anakin was to him.
Even I would have put a bullet in his head to end it, not just leave him charred and hobbled and waiting to die!
I just thought that was not in character for Obi-Wan

3d

[Charybdis]

It seems like a real easy thing to do, plunge the light saber in him and kill him off. But really put yourself into some type of situation like that. Anakin has been horribly defeated and is now burning up and will most likely die soon, but once the fight is over, Obi's feelings come out and he almost starts crying about what has happened. I think it is also logical that he decided to leave it well enough alone and leave Anakin to die.

I think it's a bit much to ask him to go up and chop his head off to end the misery! And besides, there wouldn't be any reason for eps 4-6!!!

[gpdesigner]

I didn't get that impression from Obi after the battle, to me he seemed more upset over the distruction Anakin caused and the pain he was feeling because of Anakin betrayal seeing how he was "supposed to be the chosen one" I don't think his emotion was solely driving by the realization of crippling Anakin, tho' I do admit that there may have been some of that there. I just didn't see that much remorse in Obi-Wans eyes.
It almost seems like it was a rush to wrap the shooting.
When we know in eps 4-6 how much bodily damage was done to Vader, why was it so important that "All" of it be done in that first battle with Obi-Wan . . .?
I mean he was just cooked, chopped up and shoved into the black suite all in 20 minuites. . . I thought the idea of Vaders injuries were due to years of constant battle.


I think it's a bit much to ask him to go up and chop his head off to end the misery! And besides, there wouldn't be any reason for eps 4-6!!!
:LOL: yeah leave it up to me and the series would have been over before it started . . . . :D
3d

[gmd3d]

he knew Anakin was still alive or ready to die at best, why would he just walk off and leave him in mortal pain until death considering what Anakin was to him.
Even I would have put a bullet in his head to end it, not just leave him charred and hobbled and waiting to die!
I just thought that was not in character for Obi-Wan.

I did think along those lines myself sometime ago and you have reminded me of it..
I think you have a point Obi-wan would and should have finished the job.. but then there would be no 4. 5 or 6..

Perhap Anakin should have fallen down a slope and out of sight could have help that

[Darrell Lawrence]

Darth Vader is a clone of Anakin.

[gmd3d]

theres a thought.. Vader a Clone...

[julix]

First off you need to read the book......it explains so much so well. Second it is totally against jedi training and rules to kill a defensless being............which Anakin certainly was. i think you could see the pain on Obi-wan face. And the heartache as he says.......I loved you like a brother! He utters the lines "I shall do what I must" which is a line Qui-Gon uses and he has learned from. He had to fight Anakin...........but he did not want to. plus Obi-Wan did think Anakin was going to die.......It was always in the lore that Vader's injuries was from the fight with Obi-wan......


The line about Yoda training .........it is because if you notice master Jodi trains all younglings.............Qui-Gon was Obi-Wan's mater but Yoda is all that is left that can complete Luke's training..........

[gpdesigner]

First off you need to read the book......it explains so much so well. Second it is totally against jedi training and rules to kill a defensless being............which Anakin certainly was.

A friend told me about books that were written on Star Wars by other authors and "sanctioned" by George Lucus, and that these books cover a lot of backstory, I wish I did read some of these before, but like most I am just going on movie face value.

but for the moment let us disreguard the fact that killing Vader would do away with eps 4-6 this is a given. Lets deal with being in the moment which is a "Jedi phrase" At that monement Obi-Wan Cuts off both of Anakins legs and the last good arm he has, stands over his body and basically says. . . "now take that!"
The fire was just something that happens after the fact. but still . . .
Obi-Wan being a skilled "swordsman" knows the damage he is inflicting on Anakin as he is jumping through the air, in Fact Obi-Wan says, " The fight is over. . . I have the Higher ground." Knowing this . . and then inflicking the damage he did, why did he just kill Anakin instead of making him a basket case. You have to admit there is some sort of cruelty in that . . .

He utters the lines "I shall do what I must" which is a line Qui-Gon uses and he has learned from. He had to fight Anakin...........but he did not want to.

So Obi-Wan intention was to cripple his student . . . again this is cruelty. We all know that a Jedi will kill, so if he had to kill Anakin then he should have . . .
Just get it over with, cut his head off and be done with it . . .
( remember we suspend the idea of eps 4-6 here)

It was always in the lore that Vader's injuries was from the fight with Obi-wan......

I don't remember this from the movies but if you say it is ideas from the books that have been written, then I will believe you . . .

The line about Yoda training ......... it is because if you notice master Jodi trains all younglings.............Qui-Gon was Obi-Wan's mater but Yoda is all that is left that can complete Luke's training..........

I can see your point here but, Yoda's training of Obi-Wan would have been a fraction of the time compaired to the time he spent with Qui-Gon and that being said Qui-Gon as Obi-Wans latest Master, should be given all the credit, and even in death Qui-Gon was training Obi-Wan. In one of the last scenes in eps 3
Yoda send Obi on his last mission, to watch over young Luke and to commune with Qui-Gon on the After life return force thingy . . .
3d

[gpdesigner]

Darth Vader is a clone of Anakin.
interesting theory . . .
theoretically his DNA would contain the same high concentration of Meticloriens so this is possible, but why clone him with missing limbs ?
3d

[Fragmentary]

So Obi-Wan intention was to cripple his student . . . again this is cruelty. We all know that a Jedi will kill, so if he had to kill Anakin then he should have . . .
Just get it over with, cut his head off and be done with it . . .
I think it was more of a case of Obi-wan leaving open the possibilty, no matter how slim, that Anakin might survive. This was his friend and student for years and even though he had turned to the dark side, Obi-wan never wanted to fight him much less kill him. Human nature took over in that instant and he just walked away, feeling that at the very least he didn't deal the finishing blow. Maybe, somehow, Anakin might survive. At the point it was up to God or the force or just fate. It isn't rationale or logical at all, but then it was a totally emotional response. As long as he didn't follow through, them maybe he didn't really kill his friend. It was a weak moment of human sympathy that would come back to haunt Kenobi. It's all the more tragic because of that.

[julix]

Good points Frag...............


The books are excellent even though they are "sanctioned". The episode 3 book especially. I never said anything about episodes 4-6 in my posts so it wasn't a factor in what I said. I never saw it as him standing over Anakin as a take that issue...........He warned Anakin.....don't do it I have the Higher ground..it is over......but being consumed by the dark side and arogance and power Anakin still thinks he will win. So he makes the aggressive move and Obi-wan responds. In reading the book, you will get much more insight into all the thoughts behind every character. Mean? No way. unfortunate, heart-breaking..........all of those things and yes it comes back to haunt him.

[Darrell Lawrence]

but why clone him with missing limbs ?
3d

They didn't. It's the clone that got chopped up ;)

My theory is that at some time not long before, Anakin did NOT embrace the Dark Side, so the Emperor killed him (or captured/froze him or whatever) and had him cloned, creating the perfect Sith Apprentist.

The clone truly believed he was the true Anakin, and the Jedi could not pick up the difference give the Force being with the clone as well.

But Padme may have detected a slight change, and that'd explain her "distance" from him in III until push came to shove and she came running to the clones side.

It'd also explain the clone forgetting about her laying there after he killed her.

[gpdesigner]

warrior that is an interesting concept no doubt, but why go to the trouble of trying to convince the clone Anakin to believe he was the real anakin when his powers over the force is all the emperor wanted. For all the emperor cared a toaster could have taked Darth Vaders place as long as it was as strong with the force as Anakin was. But I can see that as being a good twist....

julix don't get me wrong about Obi-wan, I love that character, I think he has got to be the most energetic character of the Story. I mean we first meet him as an older gentelman and are amazed at his strength of being, then we finally get a chance to see him in his younger days and boy did he Rock . . . Obi-Wan is awesome . . . I just think that if his intention was to wound Anakin he could have just hacked off a leg or maybe his other arm, but julix he just left a burning torso still alive . . . that's harsh.
Now on the other hand, Anakin sure did desirve it . . . he killed a lot of people, kids as well . . . definately a bad man, got just what he asked for . . .

but it's Obi-wan I was concerned with, I think I will go out and get the book for eps 3 to see what you are talking about . . .
3d

[julix]

warrior that is an interesting concept no doubt, but why go to the trouble of trying to convince the clone Anakin to believe he was the real anakin when his powers over the force is all the emperor wanted. For all the emperor cared a toaster could have taked Darth Vaders place as long as it was as strong with the force as Anakin was. But I can see that as being a good twist....

julix don't get me wrong about Obi-wan, I love that character, I think he has got to be the most energetic character of the Story. I mean we first meet him as an older gentelman and are amazed at his strength of being, then we finally get a chance to see him in his younger days and boy did he Rock . . . Obi-Wan is awesome . . . I just think that if his intention was to wound Anakin he could have just hacked off a leg or maybe his other arm, but julix he just left a burning torso still alive . . . that's harsh.
Now on the other hand, Anakin sure did desirve it . . . he killed a lot of people, kids as well . . . definately a bad man, got just what he asked for . . .

but it's Obi-wan I was concerned with, I think I will go out and get the book for eps 3 to see what you are talking about . . .
3d
Glad to hear you will be picking up the book........you won't regret it. it is an amazing read! Let me know what you think. I am actually rereading it right now. It is that good.

[Darrell Lawrence]

Ya convince the clone it's the real deal so as to not tip off the Jedi until the time is right.

[TopGun]

Back to the Yoda/Obi-Wan teachings, Yoda taught Obi-Wan how to come back from the dead via the force, from that point of view he was the Jedi Master who instructed Obi-Wan

[julix]

yep top gun and you can look at this a couple of ways. In episode 3 Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he has training for him in his solotude on Tatooine. He tells him he will be communing with Qui-gon to learn about beyond death with the force. So even though he was "communing" with Qui-gon, it was under Yoda's training............

[TopGun]

And Star Wars is all about Point of View

[gpdesigner]

Back to the Yoda/Obi-Wan teachings, Yoda taught Obi-Wan how to come back from the dead via the force, from that point of view he was the Jedi Master who instructed Obi-Wan

Ummm sorry, that would be a negative. . .
Yoda told obi-Wan that he had a mission for him, he was to go to tatooine and look after young Skywalker, and while he was there, he was to comune with and learn fron Qui-Gon Jinn because Qui-Gon had learned how to re-emerge from the dead.
3d

yep top gun and you can look at this a couple of ways. In episode 3 Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he has training for him in his solotude on Tatooine. He tells him he will be communing with Qui-gon to learn about beyond death with the force. So even though he was "communing" with Qui-gon, it was under Yoda's training............

I don't remember this from the movie, but I will indulge the theory by saying, If Yoda trained him in solotude, "how you train someone for that" it wasn't about beyond death, this he did learn from Qui-Gon. Also if we look at the time line here we will notice that After Qui-Gons death if Yoda started training Obi-Wan in solotude he had 10 years maybe 15 tops to train Obi, enough time to span the distance from eps 2 to eps 3. Now we have to look at the time Obi spent in solotude with Qui-Gon and that would be at least 19 years, enough time for young Skywalker to grow up, so I think we can stil give Qui-gon the credit for being Obi-Wans Mentor . . .

but this is all speculation from the movies point of view, if the books give more indepth details then we should set up this guideline in using the books as extra reference points . . those are good conceprts fellas I can see your points but you can't convince me :D

3d

[julix]

Ummm sorry, that would be a negative. . .
Yoda told obi-Wan that he had a mission for him, he was to go to tatooine and look after young Skywalker, and while he was there, he was to comune with and learn fron Qui-Gon Jinn because Qui-Gon had learned how to re-emerge from the dead.
3d


Had to edit cause I didn't see the reply at first

[julix]

I do give Qui-Gon full credit as Obi-Wan's master. I think it was just one of those little things................in all honesty when Lucas made episode IV he had no idea how sucessful it would be.........no one did. i think he lined it all up really well for me. This is just one of those things.

[gpdesigner]

I do give Qui-Gon full credit as Obi-Wan's master. I think it was just one of those little things................in all honesty when Lucas made episode IV he had no idea how sucessful it would be.........no one did. i think he lined it all up really well for me. This is just one of those things.

it's cool to see there is a lot of people out there who are into Star Wars :D
3d

[julix]

it's cool to see there is a lot of people out there who are into Star Wars :D
3d


I agree..........I am a total sweek!

[TopGun]

Is that sort for Star Wars Geek or something?

btw 3D I never said that I don't feel that Qui-Gon was Obi-Wan's mentor.

Maybe Qui-Gon was still a sore point for Obi-Wan, having seen his mentor killed. And so didn't mention him to Luke

[julix]

sweek................star wars geek

[TopGun]

Thought so, sounds pretty nice. What else could we call ourselves? Warsies :D

[julix]

swoopies.........star wars groupies

[TopGun]

Some Star Wars Fans could be called Bucket-Heads :D

[julix]

I just love how the media and all describe a star wars fan as a 40 year old guy who lives in his mama's basement. I laugh at that one! I assure you I am not!

[TopGun]

Well, you're not a guy for one :D

The Media love sterotypes

[gpdesigner]

warsies . . . . :D
TopGun, no problem . . . I am sure Qui-Gon was sore spot for Obi-Wan,
I am sure Lucas would have mentioned it if he knew he was going to to a back story.

But, I still contend that no matter how he felt after the fact, there was a bit of cruelty in Obi-Wans dealing with Anakin. Sorry gang . . this is what I believe.
When I first saw the film and witnessed that scene, I felt like most of you, and said Ohhhh! that's how it was done. But later I really thought about and said, How friggin' cruel was that, then he just walked away leaving him for dead.

Sure he may have felt totally devistated after the fact . . thining OMG what did i do but . . in the monment, he did a ginsu on Anakin and walked away . . .
I mean I squash insects all the time, and later I think "dang I didn't have to do that" However in the moment I 'm thinking :thumbdown . . . :D
3d

[gpdesigner]

Some Star Wars Fans could be called Bucket-Heads :D

bucket heads . . . D'oh!

hey wait a minuit, wouldn't those be starbuck fans?
3d

[TopGun]

You're entitled to your opioin offcourse, as are we all.

[gpdesigner]

You're entitled to your opioin offcourse, as are we all.

"so say we all" :D
3d

[julix]

well, that is not really a saying I use......but "live long and prosper" "may the force be with you"

[TopGun]

they are words to live by

[Lothos]

Why did Obi-wan tell Luke Yoda was the jedi master who instructed him?

<Scene: Hoth - A Half dead Luke Skywalker, exhausted and delirious, stumbles through the freezing frozen wastes of the Ice Planet>

Luke: <Thump>

Obi-Wan: Luke!!

Luke: Ben?!?

Obi-Wan: You must go to the degobah system....

Luke: Degobah system... ?!?! <WTF? (What the Frak)>

Obi-Wan: There you will find Yoda. He was the Jedi Master Who taught Count Dooku, who later went on to become Darth Tyranous who lead the confederate forces in the clone wars. <Luke starts to pass out> HEY!! Wake up boy!! I've got important information to impart on you... So anyway BEFORE he turned to the Dark Side Count Dooku trained Qui- Gon Jinn. Qui-Gon Jinn was the Jedi knight who taught me everything I know <Luke collapses again> AHEM!!! <Luke lifts his head> INCLUDING this ghost thing I'm doing here, which BTW is taking all sorts of hella effort to remain all coporeal!!!! ANYWAYS!!! Qui-Gon taught me how to be a Jedi but he got killed... So did mace Windu and all the other Jedi... But Yoda's Alive still.... And he''s on Degobah... So .. So go there... you still listening?!? Ah well ... Peace Out!!! <Obi-wan fades away.. Luke meanwhile is lying face up and about to swallow his own tongue when Han Solo appears on Tauntaun.>

Much different would be this movie if filmed this dialogue was , Yes?
:D

[gpdesigner]

Much different would be this movie if filmed this dialogue was , Yes?
:D

This is true, I am sure lots of things were cut out in order to make it short . . like the scene were Lea changes into that 2 piece out fit . . . :Nsmilie:
we didn't really see the footage but we know she changed clothes . . .
would have like to see that . . .

Santee

[Darrell Lawrence]

Give it a while. Lucas will again re-edit the originals and change certain dialogs to match the prequels :rolleyes:

[bsg1fan1975]

To answer the matter of the question, I don't think that Obi Wan wanted to adopt the attitiude of "kick'em while their down" towards Anakin because he might have sensed something about Anakin's fate later on that would bring him back to the good side.

Anywho, that's just my take on this.

[kylebell]

My stand on it is that he felt that Anakin needed to be raised right. He wasn't cruel in his own eyes but might have been in Anakin's perception.

[Charybdis]

I think it's more that he thought Anakin was going to die there. After all, he had just gotten three limbs chopped off and been flamed up by lava!!!

and for why Ben says certain stuff that don't jibe with the prequels? the prequels were just gleamings in George's eyes back then!!!

[KJ]

Obi-Wan being a skilled "swordsman" knows the damage he is inflicting on Anakin as he is jumping through the air, in Fact Obi-Wan says, " The fight is over. . . I have the Higher ground." Knowing this . . and then inflicking the damage he did, why did he just kill Anakin instead of making him a basket case. You have to admit there is some sort of cruelty in that . . .

Eh?

Then how come Darth Maul didn't slice up Obi-Wan Kenobi when he jumped over him in the 'Power Generator' shaft in Episode 1? Maul blatantly had far more higher ground than Kenobi did in Episode 3. It's weak writing regardless of the fact Star Wars was once great (face it, its lost that cool edge it once had?).

Personally the battle between Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in episode 3 fell short of expectations most fans were hoping for years. Reasons for Anakin's turning to the darkside weren't that great at all nor was the fact Obi-Wan didn't suffer (wasn't Anakin supposed to be the better swordsman here?) any major injuries himself. His battle with General Grievous should've taken alot out of him, rather than the cake walk we saw in the film where Greivous is out fought easily by Kenobi? Wasn't General Greivous supposed to be a killer of Jedi who's reputation was killing multiple Jedi Knights in battle. Good as Obi-Wan is, Lucas messed up here making the fight so one-sided. Obi-Wan was meant to have a hard time beating Greivous in a lightsabre duel. The best duels in the prequels had the combatants going at it cos the stakes were very high. Obi-Wan Kenobi Vs Darth Maul was probably the best duel in the prequels cos both actors trained their asses off to make the fight something out of this world and storywise, the battle was furious cos the Sith and Jedi finally met once more after long period of time where one-side fought the other was long destroyed.

Palpatine Vs Mace Windu, Master Yoda Vs Count Dooku and Darth Sidious Vs Master Yoda were the other fights that had some meaning to their confrontations and were certain highlights during the series on which the outcome was most serious and had particular consequences afterwards. But the Anakin Obi-Wan duel fell short cos of Lucas' huge ego in making the prequels. No i'm not on another one of those Lucas bashing crusades, hell i saw and shook hands with him at the Episode 2 premiere. But George did mess up on Episode 3 for the reason of showing us how in his mind, Anakin became Darth Vader. I'm sure you didn't wait 28 plus years to see barely 2 minutes of Vader in the suit in Episode 3 and hardly use any dialogue once he was in that black suit and still bitching about Padme did you? I know i didn't, nor did tons of other fans out there. Anakin was supposed to fall like Lancelot and the Jedi Knights were supposed to challenge Anakin who had turned evil like the Dark Knight in medevial times and take him on in seperate duels after he killed his fellow Jedi Knights.

Yet Lucas kept the Jedi Temple slaughter all 'hush hush' and barely seen... WTF?

Obi-Wan was mis-handed in the end just as alot of things were in the prequels. We really didnt see much of Jedi training onscreen in the prequels and whatever was brought up was way too subtle or poorly written to be taken seriously or thought of in hindsight anyways except to the hardcores who love everything about Star Wars. If Star Wars is a modern mythology, why all the nerdy following then? Mythologies don't have geekyness around them.

Orginal trilogy was cool to follow, however too many cooks in the kitchen for the prequels kinda diluted the whole mystical level of entertainment and enjoyment for me and many others out there! That and wayyyyyy too many plotholes covered up by SW fans with poor, pitiful, excuses as to what happened for whatever bizarre reason (just browse through the letter pages of Star Wars magazine for proof?).

Obi-Wan had the highground alright, but so did Darth Maul and look what became of him? Sorry but that line just sucks and a major majority of SW fans and movie audiences knew it last year and all!

Lucas in his prequel years cares about CGI, merchandising and money not decent storytelling! If he did care at all, then they'd be less fan movies of the prequel trilogy by fans wanting to fix all his mistakes in making the new trilogy of Star Wars films. Ask yourself why there isn't as many fan edited movies of the original Star Wars Trilogy as there presently are for the recent prequel trilogy then? Cos its far more flawed thats why. Questions about the storylines and character arcs and behavior patterns in the prequels will always be debated over. Even though you know in the back of your minds the writing and direction of the prequels is just pretty poor to begin with (although i'll admit the action scenes and a few plot points are of interest). And you know that most of whats in the prequels wasn't from his famed "yellow binder" but as in the infamous Clerks cartoon episode, he probably made most of it up on the spot and did it over the weekend! There are way too many plotholes in the prequel for there to be any clear answers for what happened or started in the original trilogy. If George Lucas is starting a new Star Wars TV up, why is it based inbetween episodes 3 and 4? And not something new or set during the "Knights Of The Old Republic" era? And why an all new CGI Clone Wars cartoon series again set between Episodes 2 and 3? Shouldn't have all this been already covered in the prequels anyhow.

Seems Star Wars like Star Trek, has morphed into a greedy "cash cow" to keep pumping out recylced stuff Lucas SHOULD have put into the prequle movies, the same stuff the unfairly and harshly critised 'Star Wars Expanded Universe' does so beautifully well. All in the name of money!

Obi Wan Kenobi is hardly 'heartless and cruel' compared to the shameless cash cow Star Wars has become folks.

KJ

[spcglider]

Ok before I get into me statement just a bit about the story line continuity.
I know the saga of Star Wars spans almost 30 years, and I think they really did a splendid job keeping the continuity of the story together . . . . .
However . .
episode 5:
Obi-wan appears to Luke in ghostly fashion, Just after Luke escapes the from the clutches of the Snow-Monster. While Luke is laying there Obi-Wan appears to him and clearly states that he should go to Degoba and learn from Yoda The Jedi Master who taught Obi-Wan . . . . Shouldn't that be Qui-Gon Jinn ?

I just thought I would mention that . . . .

Ok so to my statement: Was Obi-Wan Kenobi heartless and crule ?
episode 3 :
The Battle scene between Anakin and Obi-Wan was awesome to say the least, And I totally realize that Obi-Wan mission was to stop Anakin at cost. But after the movie the events that took place at the close of that battle set me uneasy about Obi-Wan.
What he did to Anakin was un-Jedi I thought. basically he left him badly burned, and crippled, which are injuries he himself inflicked for the most part. But after he damaged Anakin beyond any hope . . . . . he just turns and walks off.
he knew Anakin was still alive or ready to die at best, why would he just walk off and leave him in mortal pain until death considering what Anakin was to him.
Even I would have put a bullet in his head to end it, not just leave him charred and hobbled and waiting to die!
I just thought that was not in character for Obi-Wan

3d

As much as I absolutely hated the prequels, I can say that at the point you describe, Anikin is no longer a Jedi, but Sith. And that makes him unworthy of Jedi consideration. He made his choice to embrace the dark side. It could be that Obi-Wan couldn't feel any good left in him and decided that a firey death was appropriate. Besides... it completely handles the whole funeral pyre problem in one fell swoop.

-Gordon

[spcglider]

Eh?

Then how come Darth Maul didn't slice up Obi-Wan Kenobi when he jumped over him in the 'Power Generator' shaft in Episode 1? Maul blatantly had far more higher ground than Kenobi did in Episode 3. It's weak writing regardless of the fact Star Wars was once great (face it, its lost that cool edge it once had?).

Personally the battle between Obi Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in episode 3 fell short of expectations most fans were hoping for years. Reasons for Anakin's turning to the darkside weren't that great at all nor was the fact Obi-Wan didn't suffer (wasn't Anakin supposed to be the better swordsman here?) any major injuries himself. His battle with General Grievous should've taken alot out of him, rather than the cake walk we saw in the film where Greivous is out fought easily by Kenobi? Wasn't General Greivous supposed to be a killer of Jedi who's reputation was killing multiple Jedi Knights in battle. Good as Obi-Wan is, Lucas messed up here making the fight so one-sided. Obi-Wan was meant to have a hard time beating Greivous in a lightsabre duel. The best duels in the prequels had the combatants going at it cos the stakes were very high. Obi-Wan Kenobi Vs Darth Maul was probably the best duel in the prequels cos both actors trained their asses off to make the fight something out of this world and storywise, the battle was furious cos the Sith and Jedi finally met once more after long period of time where one-side fought the other was long destroyed.

Palpatine Vs Mace Windu, Master Yoda Vs Count Dooku and Darth Sidious Vs Master Yoda were the other fights that had some meaning to their confrontations and were certain highlights during the series on which the outcome was most serious and had particular consequences afterwards. But the Anakin Obi-Wan duel fell short cos of Lucas' huge ego in making the prequels. No i'm not on another one of those Lucas bashing crusades, hell i saw and shook hands with him at the Episode 2 premiere. But George did mess up on Episode 3 for the reason of showing us how in his mind, Anakin became Darth Vader. I'm sure you didn't wait 28 plus years to see barely 2 minutes of Vader in the suit in Episode 3 and hardly use any dialogue once he was in that black suit and still bitching about Padme did you? I know i didn't, nor did tons of other fans out there. Anakin was supposed to fall like Lancelot and the Jedi Knights were supposed to challenge Anakin who had turned evil like the Dark Knight in medevial times and take him on in seperate duels after he killed his fellow Jedi Knights.

Yet Lucas kept the Jedi Temple slaughter all 'hush hush' and barely seen... WTF?

Obi-Wan was mis-handed in the end just as alot of things were in the prequels. We really didnt see much of Jedi training onscreen in the prequels and whatever was brought up was way too subtle or poorly written to be taken seriously or thought of in hindsight anyways except to the hardcores who love everything about Star Wars. If Star Wars is a modern mythology, why all the nerdy following then? Mythologies don't have geekyness around them.

Orginal trilogy was cool to follow, however too many cooks in the kitchen for the prequels kinda diluted the whole mystical level of entertainment and enjoyment for me and many others out there! That and wayyyyyy too many plotholes covered up by SW fans with poor, pitiful, excuses as to what happened for whatever bizarre reason (just browse through the letter pages of Star Wars magazine for proof?).

Obi-Wan had the highground alright, but so did Darth Maul and look what became of him? Sorry but that line just sucks and a major majority of SW fans and movie audiences knew it last year and all!

Lucas in his prequel years cares about CGI, merchandising and money not decent storytelling! If he did care at all, then they'd be less fan movies of the prequel trilogy by fans wanting to fix all his mistakes in making the new trilogy of Star Wars films. Ask yourself why there isn't as many fan edited movies of the original Star Wars Trilogy as there presently are for the recent prequel trilogy then? Cos its far more flawed thats why. Questions about the storylines and character arcs and behavior patterns in the prequels will always be debated over. Even though you know in the back of your minds the writing and direction of the prequels is just pretty poor to begin with (although i'll admit the action scenes and a few plot points are of interest). And you know that most of whats in the prequels wasn't from his famed "yellow binder" but as in the infamous Clerks cartoon episode, he probably made most of it up on the spot and did it over the weekend! There are way too many plotholes in the prequel for there to be any clear answers for what happened or started in the original trilogy. If George Lucas is starting a new Star Wars TV up, why is it based inbetween episodes 3 and 4? And not something new or set during the "Knights Of The Old Republic" era? And why an all new CGI Clone Wars cartoon series again set between Episodes 2 and 3? Shouldn't have all this been already covered in the prequels anyhow.

Seems Star Wars like Star Trek, has morphed into a greedy "cash cow" to keep pumping out recylced stuff Lucas SHOULD have put into the prequle movies, the same stuff the unfairly and harshly critised 'Star Wars Expanded Universe' does so beautifully well. All in the name of money!

Obi Wan Kenobi is hardly 'heartless and cruel' compared to the shameless cash cow Star Wars has become folks.

KJ


I agree, but in a much less locquacious fashion.

My eight-year-old imagination was MUCH better than what the movie prequels showed us. Lucas ruined the entire mystique of his own creation because he was lazy and had blown his wad in the so-called middle trilogy. He didn't have anything, so he raped his own backstory for a script... and a poor script at that.

Not to put too fine of a point on it. Just my opinion.

-Gordon

[KJ]

I agree, but in a much less locquacious fashion.

To each his own then. :D

My eight-year-old imagination was MUCH better than what the movie prequels showed us. Lucas ruined the entire mystique of his own creation because he was lazy and had blown his wad in the so-called middle trilogy. He didn't have anything, so he raped his own backstory for a script... and a poor script at that.

Not to put too fine of a point on it. Just my opinion.

-Gordon

Surrounded by way too many "yes men" and not enough strong willed producers like Gary Kurtz or a Harrison Ford type on set demanding bigger and better changes to the scripts was another issue. Most of the actors just simply wanted to just be in Star Wars movie, can't blame them really but look what mindless devotion did to somebody like Ahmed Best playing Jar jar Binks? no wonder the poor guy hasn't done a signing tour with the rest of the actors/extras? at conventions. The reaction to him might be beyond "sub par" to say the least.

I often ask myself why talented artist 'Doug Chiang' lefted after Episode 2? how come he didn't see this thing through. John Dykstra and Gary Kurtz on the original Star Wars films didn't see the trilogy through to the end either due to creative differences. Wonder why Chiang left midway through the prequels.

On the earlier Qui-Gon Jinn debate here. I say he wasn't mentioned before cos Lucas didn't workout his so-called epic backstory enough or bother to mention him in the original trilogy for whatever reasons at the time? He could've mentioned Mace Windu on the other hand, as his name appears in the early drafts of Star Wars. Personally like Darth Maul, both of them needed more backstory told cos they only appeared once in Episode 1. Maul needed a hell of alot more lines and Qui-Gon Jinn could've had more elaborated on him since George Lucas wasn't even sure if he'd bring him back as a "force ghost" or something or other.

Heck Qui-Gon's knowledge of this which he teaches Yoda later on should've be referenced in the movie. And i always figured Obi-Wan Kenobi's past as a young Jedi in training could've dealt with more backstory and all.

Far as the Sith goes, all that Sith Empire, Sith Witch, Darth Bane, Exar Kun, the Sith Lord's fall, Aura Sing, Asai Ventress, Prince Xizor, Grand Admiral Thrawn EU stuff could've been added and referenced had Lucas adaptated the story to be more flexible and include all new concepts. But he stole Exar Kun's "double bladed" Lightsabre outright and gave it to Darth Maul though? (so why not reference some more stuff?). Seeing and reading all of this in novel, comics, graphic novels and playing video games is all neat, but since anything thats in the films is treated as "canon" i'd prefer it if all of that mentioned was put into the movies instead.

Yeah Lucas missed the boat with alot of stuff we saw in the prequels besides cocking up the Jedi and Sith. We all know Naboo was probably an early attempt to shove Alderaan into the films before it morphed into Naboo. Alderaan still is that mere planet thats unknown to us, unvisited which happens to 'blows up' in Episode 4. Surely the backstory to the original trilogy was supposed to include Alderaan as a major element in the first 3 Episodes. and we all know the clone wars meant just that, not a battle between Clones and Droids (isn't that more or less along the lines of the Droids Vs Clones War then?)

I suppose the upcoming TV series will expand on the errors of the prequels too. But lets hope the writers and show runners for the show are smart enough to fix'em though.

KJ